🍊orange fursona🧡
I'm really concerned with the description. It's getting long, with the questionable additions like adding temperaments toward cities and Four Girl Ensembles. Even the "Cities in the Philippines" are based on Manila and not the rest of the country. Next thing we'll know they'll probably add Hogwarts houses. It's like a setup for a Buzzfeed quiz than a historical depiction of the temperaments.
I have asked this at this
and this thread.
I feel like this is shoehorning alongside being long, and I am annoyed.
Edited by alnair20aug93 ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔|I DO COMMISSIONS|ᜇᜎᜈ᜔ᜇᜈ᜔
Desperately needs editing, but I'm too confused to do it and Trope Repair Shop is at its 50-thread limit. The top part of the description is all right, but the 2 or 3 paragraphs immediately following the 4 folders are extremely unclear, rambling, and on careful examinaton look like they might have been intended to be placed in the 4th folder.
Does anyone else think that having 'eating disorders' sorted into temperament categories is in (pun very much not intended and I do wish I had a better way of phrasing it) poor taste? There's all of these fun, quirky things, like character archetypes that tend to fit the temperaments, and personality quiz results, and symbolic body parts and everything, and then. A serious illness. Should we also put in what kind of suicide each temperament would be, or is that where the line is drawn?
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The Four Temperament Ensemble With Shrek & {{Tamagotchi!}} characters The Shrek one: Shrek (Choleric) Is the protagonist of the series as well as the Grumpy Bear Donkey (Sanguine) Is the best friend of Shrek, but is more energetic than him. Puss in boots (Phlegmatic) wasn’t introduced until Shrek 2 and pretty cool to be around. And Fiona (Melancholic) Is the princess of the series. The {{Tamagotchi!}} one: Mametchi (Phlegmatic) Is the most intelligent of the group Memetchi (Choleric) is kind, but is prone to losing her temper. Kuchipatchi (Sanguine) is the Big Eater of the group. And Lovelitchi (Melancholic) is a shy girl, but is a pop star and is more outgoing as her alter ego
Edited by becarbone
The main duos from TheLoudHouse and The Casagrandes
- Lincoln: (Melancholic) The man with a plan. He's constantly trying plans and schemes to sort his chaotic life.
- Clyde: (Phlegmatic) The awkward yet good natured friend of Lincoln who always follows him on his schemes.
- Ronnie Anne: (Choleric) The Jerk with a Heart of Gold bully with a strong will and very snarky.
- Sid: (Sanguine) The energetic and excentric friend of Ronnie Anne who is always looking at the bright side.
- Mario - Phlegmatic : Ideal Hero, Humble Hero, Nice Guy.
- Luigi - Melancholic : Adorkable, Cowardly Lion, Fragile Flower.
- Wario - Sanguine : Boisterous Bruiser, [[Greed Greedy]], Smug Super Jerkass.
- Waluigi - Choleric : Ax-Crazy, Petty, Hostile Jerkass.
I think we should remove "Leukine" as the name of the proposed fifth temperament, as it is the invention of certain person[1], is rarely used, and is registered as a trademark of Bayer (the German pharmaceutical company).
"Eclectic" is more commonly represented (as the temperament of the "adaptive" protagonist), and "supine" is already used, and accepted, by many who support the "five temperament" theory, however, "supine" is usually used as a replacement for "phlegmatic", which gets moved into the center, becoming the "neutral" temperament.
I don't see reason to have a fifth temperament. Sanguine and Melancholic are opposites. Phlegmatic and Choleric are opposites.
I was playing Mega Man 8, and I must admit that while mostly satisfied, I understand why the game is seen as fairly underwhelming when compared to other titles. But I'm not here to talk about that. The game brings 4 robot master during the first half and four others. I tried to apply the temperament rule here and while I doubt is perfect, here are my thoughts.
The first half is composed by Grenade Man, Clown Man, Tengu Man and Frost Man. My idea about the temperaments go this way.
- Frost Man is definitely the Phlegmatic. He's slow at anything he does. The info regarding this guy says that because of a bad design, he often suffers from chillbrains, which doesn't contribute to his already slow mind. He's mostly a guy who seems like if he would sit in his place and move when battle starts but after that he rarely does anything beyond that.
- Tengu Man might qualify as the Melancholic. He's arrogant and believes in himself as a supreme fighter. The introversion is barely there and it's mostly because comparatively speaking Clown Man and Grenade Man are more likely to be extraverteds. Indeed, he's aloof and only values his fighting skills, but after his defeat he mentions how regretful he feels, indicating that he pressures himself to be perfect.
- Grenade Man might work as a choleric. He's insane, masochistic and seems to hate rational robots. Easily ready for battle and to get caught in explosions. Violent, unhinged and probably sadistic as much as he's a masochist, he incarnates in some sense the aspects that I detest the most in some fictional cholerics......says a choleric himself.
- Clown Man is the sanguine. Unlike Grenade Man he's not exactly too unhinged, but his log data mentions that he's prone to emotional outburst and hating everything on a whim. That being said, he's for the most part a fun lover that enjoys fighting and sports.
The second half also have their own ensemble in Aqua Man, Sword Man, Astro Man and Search Man.
- Aqua Man is definitely a sanguine. He's loud, he's an attention seeker, flamboyant, hell the bio outright says that he's immature and can't react well to serious situations.
- Sword Man is however a Phlegmatic. He's noble and only does what he does for Wily's sake. He never yells nor wants to make things too fancy. He's a dutiful brave soldier that treats even Mega Man with respect.
- Astro Man goes with the Melancholic. Easily startled and nervous, he wants to be left alone but fights when he feels forced to. Unlike Aqua Man, he detest cheap humor and is modest. Nonetheless, he has great combat skills and could be a great menace if his constant insecurities could stop taking the best of him.
- Search Man.......OK, I'll admit this one was done out of simply elimination proccess. That being said, I think I found arguments to make him work in the ensemble as the designated choleric. He's dutiful to his work, and while not very sociable, he's fairly optimistic and fitting to a sniper mentality, he does what he must do to get the job done. Unusual for a choleric, he can be quite cowardly, but in exchange for that he's the pragmatic and smart kind of choleric unlike the unhinged and fairly stupid kind of choleric like Grenade Man. No second thoughts, shoot and get the job done.
You are free to discuss. Of course if you appreve my idea, put it in the videogame page of course.
Re: young adulthood and middle-aged definitions on page.
I'd propose to remove age ranges for middle-age and young adulthood since opinion varies so widely. The page right now states middle age as starting at 35, which doesn't seem to reflect many common definitions, in which start-points begin at age 40 to 45+. Wikipedia states it as beginning at age 45 with sources while some other sources state it begins at age 40. Young adulthood is said to end somewhere in the thirties, with most of the article's sources using 39-40 as an end-point, but sources vary on this.
I'd like to remove the age ranges for these periods altogether. Alternatively, I'd suggest going with most commonly accepted definitions of these age-ranges, or being more vague (ie. 'teens to thirties'; 'forties to sixities').
What are other thoughts on this?
Edited by cherrychels Hide / Show Replies
There's a lot wrong with the Four-Temperament Ensemble description. I'd be fine with removing the age ranges for these periods altogether, but I'd like to change them. Currently Sanguine ages to Choleric which ages to Melancholic which ages to Phlegmatic. It would make more sense to say sanguine ages to phlegmatic which ages to choleric which ages to melancholic.
Yeah, I agree with you and think the aging scheme needs to be reviewed and adjusted.
Re: age range removal. Thanks! :) If there are no other thoughts or objections to removing the specific age ranges, I'll go ahead and do that then after a little while :)
Not so big a mess now.
If anyone is wondering about "response's delay / duration," it was originally called "responsive delay / duration." In personality profiling, this corresponds to responsive patterns, or how an impression is ultimately answered. The delay refers to how long it takes to set in and when it does; the duration refers to how long it holds. The subpages on the Fish-Eaters site expound on this a bit.
Edited by ANTMuddle
Illuminatus
I have a question about how the Myers-Briggs types are associated with the temperaments. Specifically, I was wondering about the rationale for grouping the IxxJs with Phlegmatic and the IxxPs with Melancholic. Based on what I've read about the Myers-Briggs types, I think that these should be flipped (i.e. IxxPs with Phlegmatic and IxxJs with Melancholic). Is it OK if I switch them, or is there a reason I'm unaware of for their current groupings?
Edited by Tefmon Hide / Show Replies
IxxJs are all Introverted Judgers, so INTJs , INFJs , ISTJs , and ISFJs . Likewise, IxxPs are all Introverted Perceivers, so INTPs , INFPs , ISTPs , and ISFPs . The 'x' is just a variable placeholder.
Edited by Tefmon
You should have a better reason than "Based on what I've read about the Myers-Briggs types, I think that these should be flipped." If it isn't clear then that part should probably be removed altogether.
It's perfect now. What we have here is: Introvert (I), Extrovert (E), Task-oriented (J), and Relationship-oriented (P). In this example, ENFP, ESFP, ENTP, and ESTP all qualify for the EP classification.
This page needs a major overhaul. I just spent the last 30 minutes cleaning up the formatting mishap which removed all the carriage returns before the asterisks, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. I saw a lot of Square Peg Round Trope, rambling descriptions, natter, and a boatload of unnecessary potholing that makes editing this page a nightmare.
Edited by romxxii Hide / Show Replies
This post is even more relevant today than ever.
On the other hand, without the trope page, how many of us would even know that the Four Temperaments existed?
"A Five-Man Band cannot itself be a Four-Temperament Ensemble, as the two are mutually exclusive."
I'm sorry, but this makes no sense. Am I reading this correctly? 1. Two things can be mutually exclusive yet still overlap. 2. The Five-Man Band is a set of roles reinforced by personality, and the Four Temperaments are personality archetypes. The Five-Man Band could very easily contain the Four Temperaments and still be a Five-Man Band, with one member (likely The Hero or The Chick) being Leukine or some other "fifth" type. I believe this should be changed; stating an absolute anywhere on this site really can only happen in very special circumstances, as a writer could easily create a five-person cast that fulfills both tropes, thus rendering that sentence false.
Edited by Grei Hide / Show Replies
This is ridiculous. This page is unreadable.
Four-Temperament Ensemble is about a type of character ensemble. Anything which does not contribute to describing this ensemble trope does not belong here.
DISC, Myers–Briggs, "Dere Types", Yin-Yang, "Expressive high, responsive low; response's delay short, duration long", "Corresponding element, season, and division of a day", "Archetypal Color" ... you got to be kidding. All this pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo needs to go.
Let's just say and leave it at that. Hide / Show Replies
Maybe consider having them broken off into their own pages. One for each temperament. We're reading too blasted far into this whole thing.
Oh, and most of us are perfectly aware of the idea that it's based on pseudoscientific mumbo-jumbo; it's already very clearly indicated in the first paragraph of the damn description!
Edited by ANTMuddle
Forgive the change I made, but is it alright putting the brackets beside the "Dere" section on the main page to make it more easier to understand?
If not? then sorry.
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Not a problem IMO.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
How are archetypal colors decided? Wouldn't Sanguine be yellow, not Melancholic and Choleric? And why is black representing Phlegmatic?
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I know the reasoning behind yellow for sanguine, knowing how much more often the sun is thought of as yellow than white and our Western culture's take on yellow for a sunny disposition. (In fact, a lot of people have used yellow for sanguine.) But bile (choleric) tends more toward the yellow part of the spectrum, and blood (sanguine) tends more toward the crimson. Yellow has its meaning of caution, at least in road rules. Orchid (magenta) is a fairly bright color too, and can as well represent positivity, power and passion (esp. on a Planet Fitness logo). I know orchid is feminine to Americans, but I won't go into that.
I agree, though, that between chol and mel is weird for regular yellow; I'd use darker shades of yellow, as in a desert motif.
As for black as a phlegmatic color, I have honestly no clue, other than possibly its corresponding part of each day — which is apparently night. But a dark enough blue is just as fitting, so Idk.
Edited by Bassball_Batman
I have been trying to edit the South Park section in the Western Animation sub-page so it is more accurate to show. I've even asked people to edit it so it's more accurate too, but nobody has helped. There is somebody who keeps re-editing the section towards making it inaccurate. As a result, I am going to delete the South Park section on the Western Animation page and the character page, because I am absolutely sick of my edits being deleted into something that is not accurate in the slightest.
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Oh dear Pele. That's a sinkhole-sea if I ever saw one.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
[[HighFantasy Fantasy]] writer turned Filmmaker.
I can see how "All stereotypes can be any of the four temperaments" is important to know, but does it have to be at the top of the page? It's not exactly a "most important" kind of detail.
Any chance that note can be moved near the bottom?
Edited by AwSamWeston Award-winning screenwriter. Directed some movies. Trying to earn a Creator page. I do feedback here. Hide / Show Replies
Yes.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
It looks like there's some disagreement about how The Beatles line up. Before I've seen John (choleric), Paul (sanguine), George (melancholic), and Ringo (phlegmatic). Now it's John (melancholic), Paul (choleric), George (phlegmatic), and Ringo (sanguine). I'm a big Beatles fan and I personally agree with the first line-up: John was bold and independent (which led to his peace activism in later years), Paul was the cheerful one who was more concerned with social interaction (just listen to all his love songs), George was the reflective and thoughtful one who pursued his love for Indian philosophy, and Ringo was the amiable but mostly quiet one (he doesn't say much if you watch interviews with the band). What do you guys think?
Edited by DevonKennedy2 Hide / Show Replies
John Lennon was Supine because of his shy and moody behavior. He's selfish, naive, temperamental and has a chip on his shoulder due partly to his upbringing. He hides behind an overly snarky and insensitive facade in order to hide his insecurities. Deep down, he can be a generous person.
Paul Mc Cartney is Melancholic because of his hard-working and strong-willed nature yet moody and domineering personality. He hates being told what to do, yet is inclined to be bossy and sometimes condescending towards his bandmates. He especially is very sensitive to criticism and can come off as an egomaniac.
George Harrison was Melancholic because of his stern and sarcastic attitude. He's very temperamental, but nonetheless considered to be a gentleman. He's just as demanding and uptight as Paul and a major perfectionist. He can also be very cynical and a grudge-bearer.
Ringo Starr is Choleric because of his sociable and compassionate personality though he's prone to mood swings, being temperamental and sensitive to criticism. He is typically the mediator in the band when creative differences were to arise between his bandmates.
So altogether, I see John as the shy, insecure and moody leader. Paul being second-in-command who aimed to take control of the band and is very task-oriented. George being the stern and rebellious pessimist. Lastly, Ringo being the easy-going yet moody realist.
Edited by AceDetective
If u want a Scottish-prefix last name on here (McCartney) without making a non-existent link of it, remember: it will assume that double-caps without a space between always means a link, unless u tell it otherwise with a bracket smileys around it, like so: [=McCartney=].
Edited by 75.64.107.211
I have done a bit more research and now I believe these are the more accurate personalities for those four:
- John was Supine because of his passive-aggressive and moody nature along with his tendency to be cynical and insensitive at sporadic moments. He was especially very witty and had his moments of having his head in the clouds. Although he's considered to be very shy and quiet, he could be a loudmouth and say things he never meant to say. He was once considered by a reporter as “the laziest man of England”. He also had moments where he would have random anger outbursts, but was able to forgive and forget. He was a selfish, naive, and highly insecure man of extremes who would hide behind an overly sarcastic and cruel facade in front of others (mostly people he's familiar with), then privately be very sweet and friendly. He had a habit of exaggerating his own accomplishments and being a bit vain, arrogant, and a narcissist. He seemed to have a strong need to fit in with trends despite trying to come off as rebellious and constantly changed outlooks on life, along with his appearance, like a chameleon (Teddy boy, hippie culture, antiwar activism, etc...). He was classified as the agitator in the band since he could sometimes overdo it with his facade and be a total asshole to a lot of people (including his family and friends). After he made the "Bigger than Jesus" remark and received a lot of backlash, he became increasingly neurotic and apathetic about almost everything. He, with the help of Yoko, played a big part in trying to sabotage the band (much to Paul's dismay).
- Paul is Melancholic because of his hard-working and strong-willed nature yet moody and domineering personality. According to traveling journalists, Paul and George were known as the pranksters of the band, as well as the most pro-active out of the four. Although John was considered the "leader" of the band, Paul was the domineering member who made most of the creative decisions. He's an overly dedicated workaholic and arguably is the most talented. He has a massive ego so he has numerous moments of being a control freak who wanted things his way. He especially has moments of being condescending towards his bandmates and a major show off. He is the only ex-Beatle who hardly ever collaborated with the others (if he did, it's mostly with Ringo) and it's generally because of his own self-absorbed and arrogant attitude. He further has a habit of being thin-skinned or sensitive to criticism, as well as having a vicious temper when he doesn't get what he wants. Despite his flaws though, he can be very charming, friendly, and helpful. He was classified as the optimist in the band since he really enjoyed being a Beatle and only wished to keep the band going even though he knew that the band's dissolution was inevitable (according to John however, Paul was only keeping the band going for his own sake, not everyone else's).
- George was Melancholic because of his stern, sarcastic and brooding nature, along with an indifference towards fame. He was considered by many who knew him as a gentleman. On the other hand, he had a fearsome temper, started fights with policemen and photographers during his early years touring with the Beatles, and was a red-blooded man. Despite his (supposed) indifference towards materialism, he was the most business (money) minded member of the band and wore the trendiest clothes compared to the others. According to a biography by Bob Spitz, George was very stubborn and despised authority figures. He was the one who argued a lot (especially with Paul) during numerous sessions like the Revolver, The White Album, and Let It Be sessions. He's just as moody and uncompromising as Paul (hence the two barely ever getting along). He had a nearly life-long resentment towards not only Paul for "ruining him as a guitarist" and John for constantly being condescending towards him, but his overall experience as a Beatle almost to the point that arguably he must've suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder. The people who knew him clarify that he hardly was the "Quiet Beatle" fans view him as. In fact, some of his friends recalled how he would never stop talking. Altogether, he was more of the "Stubborn Beatle" than anything else because of his independent and rebellious behavior.
- Ringo is Choleric because of his sociable and compassionate personality although he has his moments of mood swings and having a bit of an inferiority complex in the band. He is known for being the mediator in the band when creative tensions were to arise between his bandmates. According to Here, There, And Everywhere, a memoir by Beatles engineer Geoff Emerick, Ringo always seemed to have his guard up and lacked confidence in his drumming abilities. He was also very uptight and nervous when it came to singing since he was not much of a vocalist. That sort of nervousness and insecurity could also point back to his inferiority complex, along with being the "newbie" in the band. As a result, he can be very sensitive, distrustful and temperamental if criticized and/or insulted. On the flip side, he’s generally happy-go-lucky and as much of a wisecracking joker as John at times (hence the two being the closest of friends compared to the other Beatles). He's also the biggest party animal out of the four. He's the only ex-Beatle who happened to collaborate with all three of his bandmates which lends to the fact that he was the mediator and easygoing realist in the band.
So, what do you guys think?
Edited by AceDetective
Nah, he's more of a Melancholic since he's not that much of a extrovert, just an outgoing introvert. He has a lot of traits of a melancholic. He's judgmental, stern, pessimistic and very sarcastic. His rebellious attitude and loner tendencies pretty much lend to his temperament.
Edited by AceDetective
Typo Hunter
Anybody else think this reads more like a Quizilla page from 2009 than a TV Tropes page? Should we make it fit in with the rest of the wiki a bit more, stylistically speaking?
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It's a very problematic page. I'd throw it into the Trope Repair Shop.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Cosmopolitan Fictioneer
I think we need to include a note about why we name the fifth temperament/humour as "leukine"/"supine" instead of "phlegmatic", as the actual Five Temperaments Model does (which places "phlegmatic" in the center while "supine" takes its place as choleric's opposite). I certainly want to know why we ditched the original format where the fourfold model was described first, then the fivefold model's modifications described afterwards (where the original Phlegamtic had its traits split so that its old position was taken by Supine, with the rest inherting the old name and becoming the central position).
As coincidence might have it, we were just discussing it in the moderator discussions. I dunno why we have all these extra things, really.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
We also might want to split off a page for the four humours themselves separately since we have a lot of random examples of works that happen to use the humours for other things.
Reality is that, which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away. -Philip K. Dick
I also wondered where the humors went, they sort of disappeared and there was no reason given under the edit history. I'm assuming it's all about a new format, but it might be good to create a page for humors, because as said, they have examples and uses, and it'd be a shame to see all the work that was done on it be for nothing. I know some changes are neccessary, though.
Never forget before you've forgiven.
In regards to the section for South Park, there is something I need to discuss and that is listing Kyle as phlegmatic. I can safely say that he doesn't fit this temperament in the slightest due to his frequent arguments with Cartman. One common element in the four temperaments is the choleric and melancholic arguing with one another. The choleric argues for a sense of superiority aka Cartman while the melancholic argues to set things right aka Kyle.
There is also the fact that Kyle possesses a Hair-Trigger Temper, a strong indicator that he is NOT phlegmatic as phlegmatic are very slow to lose their temper.
In the case of Stan, I get where people come from due to the events of "You're Getting Old", but it's quite obvious that was the case of Clinical Depression and not personality. It's worth noting that phlegmatics often enough represent the laid-back Everyman which describes Stan's character nicely.
Overall, I edited the section to represent Kyle as the melancholic and Stan as the phlegmatic and if this is changed, I'd appreciate it if it's changed back to this layout in the future. Thank you.
I have a question; why don't the archived Myers Briggs temperaments don't correspond with the temperaments themselves? Some of the MB temperaments under "Artisan" seem a bit too calm to be under that category...
Well lately, I've been leaning away from the grid (4-direction) and more toward the color-wheel (6-direction). Mixing the Kiersey temperaments in with the 4 humors, perhaps choleric, melancholic, and sanguine are in a triad. Choleric + melancholic = rational; melancholic + sanguine = idealist; and choleric + sanguine = artisan. Phlegmatic, of course, in the middle, as it could be neutral or eclectic. It is the balanced temperament.
What I've come up with thus far in correspondence:
Artisan element: lightning; artisan color: fuchsia. Choleric element: oil smoke/metal wire; choleric color: red.
Sanguine element: air/mist; sanguine color: blue. Rational element: acid/volcano; rational color: yellow.
Idealist element: water or ice; idealist color: cyan. Melancholic element: earth/soil; melancholic color: green.
The phlegmatic element can be wood/plant.
The color-wheel system sets up quite a symmetry system:
- Symmetry A — melancholic, phlegmatic, and Artisan (damp elements earth/soil, wood/plant, and lightning) are all three balanced of the following:
- Symmetry B — rational, phlegmatic, and sanguine (cooled-or-hot elements acid/volcano, wood/plant, and air/mist) are all three balanced of the following:
- Symmetry C — choleric, phlegmatic, and idealist (50-50 elements oil smoke/metal wire, wood/plant, and water) are all three balanced of the following:
That's an interesting idea! As a fan of colors, personality types, and fantasy elements, I like it. And your match-ups of the Kiersey temperaments and humor temperaments look right to me. (I especially like melancholic being between NF and NT - a lot of people have associated melancholic with SJ, and I've never understood that, as melancholic has always been the philosophical, independent temperament, quite unlike the typical SJ.)
Edited by 129.64.203.137
And I've noticed some have equated idealist with choleric, two concepts that are quite diametric opposites. The only thing I know they have in common is some sort of optimism, which is in vastly two differing ways.
I would place everything describing leukine (plus some things from old phlegmatic) as the 2nd-type phlegmatic; keeping choleric the same, plus some things from the sanguine/choleric blend; keeping cholermel and melancholic the same; mixing in old phlegmatic and the melancholic/phlegmatic blend into melsang; adjusting sanguine to where the phlegmatic/sanguine blend are; and the artisan spot as cholersang, and minus a few things and plus a number of things from pure sanguine.
Resulting in the pragmatic/purposeful choleric, political/pious cholermel, perfect/proper melancholic, peaceful/patient melsang, pleasant/popular sanguine, powerful/persuasive cholersang, and paced/practical phlegmatic.
These temperaments would correspond each to a pair of months: choleric to the apex of summer, cholermel to autumn, melancholic to the winter solstice, melsang to the dead of winter, sanguine to spring, and cholersang to the summer solstice.
Boy I know, GranChi, I've seen my fair share of theorists liken Mel to SJ (Guardian). Others have said that Mel = NF (Idealist) and that either chol or sometimes phleg = SJ. I've seen most often by theorists SJ equal everything but sang. Chol and phleg, otherwise, have traded back-and-forth between NT and NF. It may be that chol has been made NF due, at least in part, to the process of elimination. Mel made into SJ maybe likewise, although from what I've found on MBTI, mel SJ is not impossible. It seems you and I are the only two making any link between mel and NT.
I personally would have called SP another name like Sportisan or whatever, while SJ is Artisan, as the loaded word Guardian can throw ppl off a bit.
Edited by Bassball_Batman
My mind has made its adjustment back to the 2-factor, 4-direction model since it's popular. I don't see my 6-direction "color wheel" catching on anytime soon; and I honestly could go either way.
Plus, 4 directions to make an ensemble of five gives me an opportunity to use my newest-coined word galeucic (etymology: gala as "milk" or galanos as "cyan-blue", + leukos as "white") named for the plasm that is found in blood and in milk. Plus, galeucic is similar in sound to glucose, which is very telling of how this temperament is. Breast milk is easily a symbol of motherhood — and galeucic so naturally being a motherly temperament, this makes perfect sense.
As I've said in previous comments, phlegmatic as the neutral-position temperament.
Edited by Bassball_Batman
I feel like there is a lot of Square Peg Round Trope happening on this page - ensembles with only three characters and ensembles whose personalities do not fit the temperaments as delineated in the description. Would there be a crazy amount of backlash if the examples that don't fit are removed?
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HEATHEN! WAAAAAAAGH!
No, go ahead. If someone disagrees with an entry deletion we can deal with that later, but it shouldn't be a big deal.
Edited by Westrim I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
HEATHEN! WAAAAAAAGH!
No, go ahead. If someone disagrees with an entry deletion we can deal with that later, but it shouldn't be a big deal.
Edited by Westrim I rarely visit the forums to avoid the cynicism ooze.
I know what these "temperaments" are but I'm trying to understand how they apply to characters. I think there's still a lot that don't fit. What is the best example?
Edited by 199.250.57.231
I kind of agree, I don't think the problem is the trope though, I just think the site is missing alternate versions of a group of four ensemble. For instance we have tons of versions of Power Trios but we somehow only have one for a group of four?
EDIT: just created the Four Philosophical Ensemble, a new group of four trope that may fit some groups better, in the YKTTW here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/discussion.php?id=oenebf5w9rj3cqqw1dl5kvgo
Check it out
Edited by NoirGrimoir SPATULA, Supporters of Page Altering To Urgently Lead to Amelioration (supports not going through TRS for tweaks and minor improvements.)
Seeing as the Four Humors-type is just a graph with extroversion-vs-introversion on the y-axis and goal-oriented-vs-people-oriented on the x-axis, it's almost omni-present as a characterization trope. In my experience, a character designed simply to seem real can often be fit into this chart after the fact. A character would have to be flat (which falls in the expanded chart anyway) or completely alien to avoid falling somewhere on the chart.
I propose that this page be exclusively for cast of four-to-five, designed to fill one type each. But that works with well-defined character personalities could link back to this page from their character sheet.
tl;dr — This page, just for groups designed to fit this. Large casts link to this as a Useful Notes page from character page.
I'm not sure that the four humors apply to characters at all. The one used for the quote, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles works well for two or three out of the four of them as there's The Hero Leonardo (Choleric), The Smart Guy Donatello (Melancholic), the good side of Sanguine is Michelangelo and the flip side of it is Raphael (The Big Guy), but no one is the calm and compassionate Phlegmatic. Am I missing something or is there an example that works better?
Edited by atheywa
Well, the one thing the Five-Temperament theory and my color-wheel theory (two Power Trio sets; see top of page) is that Phlegmatic alternates between neutral and eclectic — "middle-of-the-road." There are two theories that fit, if we use my color-wheel, depending on which Power Trio we rely on (again, see top of page). Either...
"Middle-of-the-road" phlegmatic Donnie, choleric Raph, melancholic Leo, and sanguine Mike.
Or...
"Middle-of-the-road" phlegmatic Leo, melan-choleric Raph, melan-guine Donnie, and sang-oleric Mike.
Also, the famous singing chipmunks fit a Power Trio in temperament, but I'm not sure what I think of Simon in blue and Theodore in green, as vice-versa might be better fitting in their temperaments.
Yeah, there definitely is. There are also many examples on this page where some temperaments have more than one character listed. If those count as four temperament ensembles, then what doesn't? Pretty much any large ensemble would have at least one representative of each temperament.
These look like misuse to me - you ought to ask here.
Um excuse me but would the four personality catagories of tomodachi count? Confident types being choeric, independent types being melancholic, outgoing types being sanguine and easygoing types being phlegmatic? I apologize if I wrong however and on a side note which might sound irrelevant , may I also please ask if loirei from the pokemon kanto elite four would technically be melancholic due to he seriousness she displays in battle and when inthe anime as prima how I think but am not too sure she was described being analytical?
The color-wheel system would mean the following adjustments:
- Choleric: (Stays the same, plus...) the most impulsive and least sensitive toward others, can be the most violent, and can cause the most drama to happen. Tends to blame others, if anyone, but tends to still move on. Often the typical Real Man (especially as The Munchkin), a stoic and/or genki Blood Knight, and an overlap of Terror Hero and Warrior Therapist.
- Frequently the Apathetic and/or the Realist in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Cholermel: (Stays the same).
- Melancholic: (Stays the same, except...).
- Usually The Cynic and/or the Conflicted in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Melsang: Sometimes called the "silent sweethearts" of temperaments. The most sensitive, deep-feeling, mannerly temperament combo and the most focused on the abstract and character ideals. Also focuses on following the rules and seeing justice and goodness done, being the community's moral compass. Generally calm, rational (in certain ways), quiet, and reliable; but also the most docile, shy, timid, neurotic, and prone to harbor hurt feelings. Shows sympathetic emotions just about at every turn, but does not always show emotions otherwise. Tends to be dependent on others, either by choice or because of insecurity. Prone sometimes to sloth and can be a powerful form of The Sneaky Guy (perhaps superior to that of melancholic), due to being a natural at quiet and patience (in less devious fashion than rationist). This temperament is sometimes a people person but might express these traits in an awkward fashion. Has some particular expectations of others, but in most common cases too timid to express them. Tendency to perhaps brood temporarily, but then forgive-and-forget; tendency to blame and be harsh toward self. Usually The Woobie more often than any other temperament. Can range across bookish Nice Guy, The Heart, Kuudere/Sugar-and-Ice Personality, Weak, but Skilled, or a more relaxed version of The Smart Guy. May also, if female, be a Yamato Nadeshiko or more submissive Proper Lady. Beware the Nice Ones may come into play.
- The Idealist is usually the Conflicted in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Sanguine: Sometimes called the "social sweetheart" temperament. The temperament that thrives most on relationships with other people and on the spread of kindness, forgiveness, and restoration of peace and harmony. Highly encouraging, easygoing, compassionate, non-judgmental, supportive, and helpful at holding a team or family together. On the flip side, often overly tolerant and/or permissive; often sluggish about any task that requires spending a bunch of mental energy. Tends to blame self, if anyone, but tends to move forward soon after. Often evaluates other people in a very optimistic light, an overlap of The Pollyanna and the Wide-Eyed Idealist. Usually the diametric opposite of an Insufferable Genius. Taken to an extreme, can be a Cloud Cuckoolander.
- Sometimes the Conflicted, but usually the Optimist in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Cholersang: Generally likes socialization, fun crowds, and showcases of people's talents; highly opposed to dwelling on the past. Exhibits optimism, good cheer, a love of fun, and enthusiasm. On the flip side, may be impulsive, self-indulgent, lustful, Drama Queens, or even be a space case. Tendency to anger-burst, followed by forgive-and-forget; tendency to move on rather than blame anyone. Can often be a Keet, The Loonie, Spirited Competitor, Blood Knight, Boisterous Bruiser, The Pollyanna, Gossipy Hen, or Motor Mouth; or if female, a Kawaiiko or Genki Girl. Characters on the side of good with this temperament tend to be Hotblooded, with some Idiot Hero tendencies. Also seems to be popular for Anime heroes.
- Usually the Realist and/or the Optimist in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Phlegmatic: Everything that leukine is, plus sometimes Brilliant, but Lazy and Emotionless Girl. Also, tends to blame (but not condemn) others and self in a "Let's just face it" manner (unlike melancholic) and with intent to forget and move on (more slowly than cholersang).
- Often the Apathetic, but usually the Realist in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- Often the Apathetic, but usually the Realist in a Four-Philosophy Ensemble.
- 3-Temp Ensemble: A triad (regular triangle of temperaments), possible Power Trio
- 4-Temp Ensemble: Temperament triad like above, plus a phlegmatic character.
- 6-Temp Ensemble: 2 triads — all 6 temperaments in the color-wheel
- 7-Temp Ensemble: The above + phlegmatic = all 7 temperaments.
So what does everyone think of this?
Edited by Bassball_Batman
I hate to be the party pooper here, but the description of these humours is very wrong as it is.
The other wiki, in this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Humours , claims that Phlegmatic is one of the original four humours, and makes absolutely no mention of Leukine at all, not even as Supine.
I agree, the content appears to have changed rather drastically from what it was, and seems quite incorrect according to The Other Wiki. The current description completely disregards the old model.
"The four temperament system was an interesting one, but flawed. Several tests noticed people that did not conform to any of the behaviour types, so a neutral temperament was created." The current description describes The Five Temperaments, not the Four.
Consideration of this neutral temperament is a practical addition, but it should be just that, an addition. The classical four temperaments should be listed as such, and then there should be additional information on The Five Temperaments.
"In the Five Temperaments theory, the classical Phlegmatic temperament is in fact deemed to be a neutral temperament, whereas the "relationship-oriented introvert" position traditionally held by the Phlegmatic is declared to be a new "fifth temperament.""
Having the descriptions for both will help eliminate confusion for directs referencing the classical model.
Edited by player2start
Perhaps look at my Seven-Temperament color-wheel theory above. It actually places phlegmatic in the middle and makes two Power Trio sets of the other six: choleric, melancholic, and sanguine for one Power Trio; and melan-choleric, melan-guine, and sang-oleric for the other Power Trio.
Not sure what high/low response actually means could anyone clarify that a bit?
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Expressive has to do with expressing needs and goals; responsive has to do with seeking reactions and answering what others express. People-oriented and responsive go hand-in-hand. Being an encourager and/or a good shoulder to cry on are two examples of being high responsive. Being task/goal-oriented and low responsive go hand-in-hand.
Edited by 75.64.107.211
Not sure what high/low response actually means could anyone clarify that a bit?
Not sure about two of the Catholic Spirituality styles. I originally put Ignatian as Choleric because I can imagine Inigo bossing the soldiers and students around. I also put Augustinian as Melancholic because Augustine could get very emotional in his writings. However, they could go the other way around, with Inigo being the methodical workaholic Melancholic, and Augustine being the emotional Choleric. While Francesco was as Sanguine as they come, and Tommaso was very intellectual and bookish and thus Phlegmatic, the other two I am not sure which one to pair up with. They do match the four Myers-Briggs/Keirsey/Jungian temperaments well- but when it comes to two of the styles, I am not 100% sure.
Edited by 216.99.32.44
What about the Furious Five (even though theres five) from Kung Fu Panda?
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Um, by definition they aren't the trope, though there has been lots of misuse of the team tropes. Five ≠ four.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
Examples are 'not always exact matches for the pages of their directing. "Wear heart on sleeve" directs to the Drama Queen page, but that doesn't mean "heart worn on sleeve" always makes someone a Drama King/Queen.
- It's true that 4 does not equal 5. I don't believe that any examples given is any attempt at making 4 and 5 equal. The fifth temperament (whether called "leukine" or "phlegmatic" on other models) is treated as an optional temperament. Some stories have that one; some don't. Ensemble of 4 or ensemble of 5 — it's still a balanced ensemble. I think an ensemble of 5 is preferable over one of 4 that's missing an "opposite" (using the middle temp instead), because if one of the four has no "opposite", that'll make the ensemble lopsided. A lopsided ensemble has been completed by a temporary or secondary character included and/or a new character introduced, which I find acceptable — long as the ensemble is completed.
Also, pretty much any character will fit into one of these categories, regardless of the dynamic the character creates with other ones.
I understand about the four temps and their original names being preserved being what lots of people are used to. But the dictionary definition of phlegmatic says that it's a stolidly calm, unemotional disposition. Some dictionaries include "sluggish" and "apathetic" as well, but for the most part, they seem to imply phlegmatic as being well-balanced.
- Phlegmatic has, in definition, already drifted away from being choleric's "supine opposite" (assuming it ever has been in the first place). Though I don't imagine crowds would be ready to settle on phlegmatic as the central temperament yet, bear in mind (though I could be wrong) it seems unlikely that the accepted meaning of phlegmatic should back-track anytime soon.
- I fancy, for instance, that worry and neurosis (things opposite to choleric) will continue to be seen as rather odd in defining phlegmatic.
I saw on Eripedia, apparently a sub-site of Wordpress.com, that it was "Eric B" who coined the word "leukine" for a temperament, not on here, but on mindtweaks and INTP Central, both on which he mentions that "leukine" resolves the "S" dilemma (so that only one is initialized S).
- It is mentioned on Eripedia that he has no idea how that word "leukine" ended up here on TV Tropes. From that I take it that he, when renaming supine with a sound-alike, was intending on positioning "leukine" right where supine is, not in the center where TV Tropes (re)positioned it.
I see the reason that Leukine has been corresponded to the introverted and people-oriented position (so that it can correspond with sanguine as the two blood-related humors). However, this does not make sense with the established humors/temperaments system. Leukine was created here on TV Tropes, and previously served as a neutral fifth temperament. The only two names for the introverted and people-oriented temperament outside of this website are phlegmatic (originally) and supine (for when phlegmatic was made to be the neutral temperament. Therefore, if we're going to make phlegmatic the neutral temperament, the appropriate name for the introverted and people-oriented temperament would be supine. However, I think it makes more sense to do it the way we did before, to give the original four temperaments their original names (including phlegmatic) and to keep leukine as a neutral temperament for when one is needed.
So I've been seeing you guys writing "Phlegmatic II" on the main page AND here. But you never specified on the main page what "Type II Phlegmatic" is and what Type I would be in contrast. What's the difference?
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In the original four temperaments, the phlegmatic was the people oriented introvert. In the later five temperament version, it was changed to be the moderate temperament and we used to call the new version of the phlegmatic "phlegmatic type II".
"Phlegmatic I" is the 4th temp according to the first temp model. "Supine" is the 4th temp and "phlegmatic II" the middle-of-the-road according to the second model. The 4th temp is logically opposite from choleric.
- That 4th temp is not so full of joking like phlegmatic I, or else who's to distinguish it from sanguine?
- Nor is it full of such stoicism and apathy like (again) phlegmatic I, or else who's to distinguish it from phlegmatic II?
- On the flip side, I don't see the 4th temp as being overly neurotic, self-sensitive, or trapped in harboring hurt/anger, as is supine, or else who's to distinguish it from melancholic?
- Leucine is a type of amino acid (I don't know much about it, but it might be well-known).
- The name "Leukine" already belongs to a medicine drug and might be copyright.
- But I've a new word that isn't easily mistakable for others (except maybe "leucasin" or "leucosin") with an os in the middle and e on the end: leucosine. And I see no sign of that word being patented; it seems to be up for grabs.
- And anything phlegmatic I and supine have in common? That, too, finds a place in this temp.
- It's a pretty good opposite to choleric, no?
- Not to mention, this arrangement will solve the whole baffling dilemma of writing "phleg I" and "phleg II." To me that seems the best arrangement. Comments?
I think for the 5 girl characters in L.O.L. (Laughing Out Loud), the french original version from 2008 this works pretty good too.
Sanguine: Lola
Choleric: Isabell De Peyrefitte
Melancholic: Charlotte
Phlegmatic: Stéphane
Supine: Provence
Edited by clovely
I guess this might be jumping the gun a bit but it seems as far as the Marvel Cinematic Universe the four main heroes might play out pretty close to the 4 temperaments if their portrayals in their respective movies are any indication.
So basically:
Tony/Iron Man- Choleric
Steve/Cap- Phlegmatic (maybe Phleg type II?)
Thor- Sanguine
Bruce/ Hulk- Melancholic
I think it would work quite well just for the front end of things but I again I'd rather not jump the gun as of yet.
Edited by SirOrion
I have to add, this page just got me bonus points on a history test where we had to list these :) "Yellow bile? Tsundere."
I take issue with the Mass Effect example. Shepherd's personality is dependant on the player and, while it may not be possible to play as any of the four temperaments, you could definitely go Sanguine instead of Choleric
I am someone. Maybe.
Is it okay if I add a trivia page explaining more about the temperaments and how they apply in real life?
Edit: Actually, nevermind. There's already an article linked about them.
Edited by Fool "Would you stake your life on a world that cannot be saved?" -The Reconstruction
Okay,what temperaments would the main charcters from Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann have?
Is there any better picture to use than the page image we currently have? I think the axis of introverted/extraverted and mentally stable/unstable isn't what the four temperaments is and is a poor representation of choleric and melancholic; the latter should be relationship vs task orientated instead.
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