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Discussion History Main / FourTemperamentEnsemble

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Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
I don’t really think it is. There was nothing stating that Adrien wasn’t traumatized or suffering, and the story didn’t indicate that Adrien truly deserved to suffer, but it did make it clear that the fallout was ultimately a result of Adrien’s choices. The story itself noted that the fate Adrien suffered should have been Lila’s and would have been had Adrien not continued to try to protect her. Plagg warned him at multiple points about karma and Lila’s in particular, and both Marinette and Chloe pointed out directly to him how his enabling was harmful from both the perspective of the victim (Marinette) and the perpetrator (Chloe). Adrien chose to disregard them, which speaks to the ProtagonistCenteredMorality he held. All it would have taken Adrien to avoid that situation would have been to simply back off and not help Lila (which he was warned by Plagg not to do and knew would likely be necessary anyway if he ever wanted Marinette to date him which had been his main desire at the time), or at least not give her access to his funds. Instead, he insisted nothing was wrong even when confronted or outright warned and continued to enable people he knew were harmful with the incredibly foolish perspective that he was somehow the one person immune to Lila’s treachery. Furthermore, he held onto this expectation that things should just work out for him because of who he is and that the people he allowed to be taken advantage of and harmed should be okay with that treatment happening to themselves but should also be expected to step in to help him with the same problem, which is a DoubleStandard of its own. He at no point learned a lesson even after the losses he faced and didn’t try to better the situation even when he was directly told how to. The narrative also pointed out that he did have positive karma and good will from his heroic acts as Chat Noir, but it was lost or dare I say balanced out by the bad karma he took on for Lila, which was still ultimately his choice to do. This was why he was only left without his friends or fortune instead of serving a prison sentence alongside his father. Lila’s KarmaHoudini at the end is noted in the story to be undeserved but was achieved partly due to her planning and mostly due to Adrien’s choice in shielding her. It’s still a sad fate, but not as bad as it could have been and is still something he will have the ability to move on from.
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I don’t really think it is. This is a salt work, and one that seems to specifically be aimed at deconstructing aspects of canon and even other salt works. And it seems to acknowledge that itself.
Changed line(s) 2 from:
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There was nothing stating that Adrien wasn’t traumatized or suffering, and the story didn’t indicate that Adrien truly deserved to suffer, but it did make it clear that the fallout was ultimately a result of Adrien’s choices. The narrative itself noted that the fate Adrien suffered should have been Lila’s and would have been had Adrien not continued to try to protect her. Plagg warned him at multiple points about karma and Lila’s in particular, and both Marinette and Chloe pointed out directly to him how his enabling was harmful from both the perspective of the victim (Marinette) and the perpetrator (Chloe). Adrien chose to disregard them, which speaks to the ProtagonistCenteredMorality he held. All it would have taken Adrien to avoid that situation would have been to simply back off and not help Lila (which he was warned about by Plagg not to do and knew would likely be necessary anyway if he ever wanted Marinette to date him which had been his main focus at the time), or at least not give her access to his funds. Instead, he insisted nothing was wrong even when confronted or outright warned and continued to enable people he knew were harmful with the incredibly foolish perspective that he was somehow the one person immune to Lila’s treachery. Furthermore, he held onto this expectation that things should just work out for him because of who he is and that the people he allowed to be taken advantage of and harmed should be okay with that treatment happening to themselves but should also be expected to step in to help him with the same problem, which is a DoubleStandard of its own. He at no point learned a lesson even after the losses he faced and didn’t try to better the situation even when he was directly told how to. The narrative also pointed out that he did have positive karma and good will from his heroic acts as Chat Noir, but it was lost or dare I say balanced out by the bad karma he took on for Lila, which was still ultimately his choice to do. This was why he was only left without his friends or fortune instead of serving a prison sentence alongside his father. Lila’s KarmaHoudini at the end is noted in the story to be undeserved but was achieved partly due to her planning and mostly due to Adrien’s choice in shielding her. It’s still a sad fate, but not as bad as it could have been and is still something he will have the ability to move on from.
Changed line(s) 7 from:
n
I think the real difference is the acknowledgment of wrongdoing and choice to grow and change. Adrien didn’t do that, despite repeated warnings and despite knowing that harm was being done. His excuses ranged from “it wasn’t that bad” to “you can handle it”. It was only when something similar happened to him on an equivalent level that he felt it was wrong, but he still failed to equate that to what he knew had been happening to others. At no point did he learn a lesson and no epiphany was had. Was the outcome sad, yes. But he did still bring it on himself.

The other thing to bear in mind that this is a salt work, and one that seems to specifically be aimed at deconstructing aspects of canon and even other salt works. And it seems to acknowledge that itself.
to:
I think the real difference is the acknowledgment of wrongdoing and choice to grow and change. Adrien didn’t do that, despite repeated warnings and despite knowing that harm was being done. His excuses ranged from “it wasn’t that bad” to “you can handle it”. It was only when something similar happened to him on an equivalent level that he felt it was wrong, but he still failed to equate that to what he knew had been happening to others. At no point did he learn a lesson and no epiphany was had. Was the outcome sad, yes. Was it fair, debatable. But he did still bring it on himself in terms of what happened in the story.
Changed line(s) 7 from:
to:

The other thing to bear in mind that this is a salt work, and one that seems to specifically be aimed at deconstructing aspects of canon and even other salt works. And it seems to acknowledge that itself.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
I don’t really think it is. There was nothing stating that Adrien wasn’t traumatized or suffering, and the story didn’t indicate that Adrien truly deserved to suffer, but it did make it clear that the fallout was ultimately a result of Adrien’s choices. The story itself noted that the fate Adrien suffered should have been Lila’s and would have been had Adrien not continued to try to protect her. Plagg warned him at multiple points about karma and Lila’s in particular, and both Marinette and Chloe pointed out directly to him how his enabling was harmful from both the perspective of the victim (Marinette) and the perpetrator (Chloe). Adrien chose to disregard them, which speaks to the ProtagonistCenteredMorality he held. All it would have taken Adrien to avoid that situation would have been to simply back off and not help Lila (which he was warned by Plagg not to do and knew would likely be necessary anyway if he ever wanted Marinette to date him which had been his main desire at the time), or at least not give her access to his funds. Instead, he insisted nothing was wrong even when confronted or outright warned and continued to enable people he knew were harmful with the incredibly foolish perspective that he was somehow the one person immune to Lila’s treachery. Furthermore, he held onto this expectation that things should just work out for him because of who he is and that the people he allowed to be taken advantage of and harmed should be okay with that treatment happening to themselves but should also be expected to step in to help him with the same problem, which is a DoubleStandard of its own. He at no point learned a lesson even after the losses he faced and didn’t try to better the situation even when he was directly told how to. The narrative also pointed out that he did have positive karma and good will from his heroic acts as Chat Noir, but it was lost or dare I say balanced out by the bad karma he took on for Lila, which was still ultimately his choice to do. This was why he was only left without his friends or fortune instead of serving a prison sentence alongside his father. Lila’s KarmaHoudini at the end is noted in the story to be undeserved but was achieved partly due to her planning and mostly due to Adrien’s choice in shielding her. It’s still a sad fate, but not as bad as it could have been and is still something he will have the ability to move on from. And while it may come off as mean that Marinette didn’t help, the theft did not necessitate the immediate intervention he and the classmates were trying to demand from Marinette to “save” him in a way she couldn’t. And it falls back on the big issue noted in the story of the entitlement he and the classmates have towards her that she is obligated to accept mistreatment while the remain almost willfully blind as to how their behavior is harmful and also that she should be expected to fix their problems regardless.
to:
I don’t really think it is. There was nothing stating that Adrien wasn’t traumatized or suffering, and the story didn’t indicate that Adrien truly deserved to suffer, but it did make it clear that the fallout was ultimately a result of Adrien’s choices. The story itself noted that the fate Adrien suffered should have been Lila’s and would have been had Adrien not continued to try to protect her. Plagg warned him at multiple points about karma and Lila’s in particular, and both Marinette and Chloe pointed out directly to him how his enabling was harmful from both the perspective of the victim (Marinette) and the perpetrator (Chloe). Adrien chose to disregard them, which speaks to the ProtagonistCenteredMorality he held. All it would have taken Adrien to avoid that situation would have been to simply back off and not help Lila (which he was warned by Plagg not to do and knew would likely be necessary anyway if he ever wanted Marinette to date him which had been his main desire at the time), or at least not give her access to his funds. Instead, he insisted nothing was wrong even when confronted or outright warned and continued to enable people he knew were harmful with the incredibly foolish perspective that he was somehow the one person immune to Lila’s treachery. Furthermore, he held onto this expectation that things should just work out for him because of who he is and that the people he allowed to be taken advantage of and harmed should be okay with that treatment happening to themselves but should also be expected to step in to help him with the same problem, which is a DoubleStandard of its own. He at no point learned a lesson even after the losses he faced and didn’t try to better the situation even when he was directly told how to. The narrative also pointed out that he did have positive karma and good will from his heroic acts as Chat Noir, but it was lost or dare I say balanced out by the bad karma he took on for Lila, which was still ultimately his choice to do. This was why he was only left without his friends or fortune instead of serving a prison sentence alongside his father. Lila’s KarmaHoudini at the end is noted in the story to be undeserved but was achieved partly due to her planning and mostly due to Adrien’s choice in shielding her. It’s still a sad fate, but not as bad as it could have been and is still something he will have the ability to move on from.
Changed line(s) 2 from:
to:
And while it may come off as mean that Marinette didn’t help, the theft did not necessitate the immediate intervention he and the classmates were trying to demand from Marinette to “save” him in a way she couldn’t. And it falls back on the big issue noted in the story of the entitlement he and the classmates have towards her that she is obligated to accept mistreatment while they remain almost willfully blind as to how their behavior was hurting her and also that she should be expected to fix their problems regardless.
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