I AM KING OF THE BEACH!!
A request to people who've seen this film: can someone update the entry for Avatar for Super Weight? It's a Just for Fun homegrown ranking at TV Tropes of measuring characters' relative power in a story, divided into nine broad categories. The entry according to the old criteria was this (and can be found on the medium subpage's discussion page):
- Avatar
- Type 0: Humans in general, human Jake, Grace, and Norm, Avatar Jake initially
- Type 1: Trudy, Quaritch, Na'vi in general, Avatars
- Type 2: Quaritch in the AMPsuit, humans in gunships/AMPsuits, Na'vi Jake, Neytiri, Thanators, Toruk, Hammerhead Titanotheres
- Type 4: Eywa
I would argue that Na'vi are actually Type 2. They're downright superhuman in multiple areas. They're four times stronger than a human, probably much faster as well. Their skeletons are also more durable than humans. They also have the ability to communicate with other organisms via the Queue.
A great deal of Pandoran wildlife would be 1-3. Titanotheres are immune to bullets from Jake's gun, which is especially impressive given that that firearm has to be a BFG.
[[spoiler Eywa might be an outright Type 5, albeit probably a lower-end one. Its actions effect the entire planet, after all]].
Edited by Protagonist506 "Any campaign world where an orc samurai can leap off a landcruiser to fight a herd of Bulbasaurs will always have my vote of confidence"
The whole movie is an instance of "Mighty Whitey", but that trope doesn't seem to be referenced in the article anywhere I can find.
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Pretty sure that is not what the trope means.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
No, it is. But there's a commented-out message saying the Mighty Whitey trope is dealt with on the Characters page, not on the main page.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
It's been there a few years now: can we finally get rid of the godawful image caption?
It was always a crappy caption anyway (borderline meaningless), but there are other looming problems with it as the film ages:
1) there's no point talking-up Visual Effects Of Awesome with a screenshot, because static/2D is both far easier to do than motion/3D and also far less impressive (doubly so for a closeup character shot). It's not at all representative of the visual experience of the film; frankly it looks like it belongs on Deviant Art. Harping on about the graphics with that as the image is baffling.
2) let's be honest. The film is ageing. Gracefully - the film will never look bad. But it looks good because of its visual design, not because of the technology, which by this point is totally par-for-the-course on any reasonably high budget production. The tech has been overtaken: if we want to showcase the visuals, it should be through the timelessness of good design.
( 2.5) probably need a better screenshot to do that - a flat character render is boring to look at. Show off something interesting from the film like the mountains or the spacecraft or the alien animals, in action, in depth. )
3) in 2015 and beyond, who's living under a rock to the point where they'd even consider that was a practical effect anyway?
Proposal: delete the caption. Come up with a better one afterwards if you can, but the current caption is so bad that it detracts from the article just by existing, and having no caption would be better than what there is now.
Secondary proposal: get a better image too. Current image isn't an awesome visual in the first place. The film has better.
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Ask here
for the caption.
Night Clerk of the Apacalypse.
Hi folks I need a bit of help with an example(s) from a Special Efforts thread. See InstantDeathBullet Sandbox for more details Links to threads are in the description.
Any help, suggestions, or other info can be posted to The Special Efforts thread
As far as I can recall there are no examples of Instant Death Bullet but more Death by More Dakka or more lingering fatal gunshot injuries. The rest of the example might fit better under a different trope or tropes. Any help would be appreciated.
- Avatar uses instant death bullets, arrows, missiles, fangs, clubs, grenades, flamethrowers, and just about any other imaginable way to kill someone — for mooks, anyway. Named characters tend to hang on at least long enough for a final speech.~ needs specifics for gun use
- Genocide Backfire: The RDA Security Force, under Colonel Miles Quaritch unleashed missiles on the Hometree, killing nearly every Na’Vi, including Princess Neytiri’s Father.
- It did not have the effect Colonel Miles Quaritch had planned.
What He & The RDA Security Force did to the Na'Vi was horribly, and tragically unthinkable. Colonel Miles Quaritch would stop at nothing at opptaining the Unobtainium, and ruling all of Pandora. It had the opposite effect, it instead caused all the Na’Vi tribes to unite under one banner. The Na’vi also won a major victory at Tree of Souls.
Edited by TauWarrior566
Demoniac Daikaiju
This is a link from another board regarding the military wank that occurs with this film. It addresses several points which are often the source of edit wars on this page, so I thought I'd share if only to curb the wars.
Given their reputation it should be enough to curb claims of bias.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it. Hide / Show Replies
That is an excellent one for the most part, but it still misses a few points. By all means, read it, and I really should get around to writing a more detailed one.
There's already a big problem in the article early on. While they're probably right about the treaty, they're wrong about such an attack being detectable. We can barely detect planets in other star systems with our best telescopes today. We can detect big ones indirectly by measuring how they make their stars wobble. And we can detect smaller earth sized ones by the slight dip in light as the planet is passing between us and it's parent star. Considering how hard such massive events are to detect from such distances, its inconceivable that we on earth would notice an attack on a planet containing an atmosphere light years away from us. Especially with all the powerful electromagnetic fields already present on Pandora.
I wonder, am I the only one who thinks that perhaps the plot of this movie may have stood better on it's own merits and the film itself could have avoided so much Internet Backdraft if Cameron had just kept his mouth shut instead of using every opportunity available to preach how awesome the Na'vi were and how loathsome Humans are and basically throw huge obnoxious lampshades over every 'Primitivism Good, Technocracy Bad' related trope present or perceived in this movie?
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Internet Backdraft is meaningless to something that doesn't rely on the internet. Annoying though Cameron may be I doubt it was up to him either how anyone is going to opine about what because one of the most widely-watched movies of all time.
Clearly whatever negative opinions swirled around this movie did not stop it from having overwhelming positive word of mouth. I wouldn't worry about it.
Edited by Hadri
That's not what I was asking. Whether the seething broil of hate for the movie hurts it or not is irrelevant, what I'm talking about are how these opinions were formed and if they could have arisen with such vitriol all by themselves. My own experiences give the appearance that most who were put-off by the movie's more subtle and not-so-subtle 'themes' cite the Cameron interviews more than the film itself, would these offensive themes have been so evident if Cameron hadn't pointed them out to an audience which was not as accepting of those tropes as he was?
Lots of movies do exactly the same things Avatar did, but it's not cool to hate them because they;re not popular. Similarly its cool to hate Cameron because he keeps making popular movies.
You're not the only one to think that and I didn't go out of my way to find information on the Internet about Avatar before seeing the movie. As I am a strong advocate of applicability and a hard SF fan the views expounded here
almost broke the film for me.
I still like it even if it's more due to my alternate interpretation. I'm left wondering why Cameron made the Idiot Ball he was carrying so obvious. "There's no such thing as bad publicity", perhaps? Or maybe my critically aware demographic isn't worth bothering with?
They drive the hype but they don't bring the big bucks.
I think a lot of the flaws in Avatar are the result of a deliberate attempt to give the movie simple and wide appeal. Some filmmakers make perfect, pretty movies on low budgets for small audiences that care about that. We already knew James Cameron wasn't like that.
The question framed another way.. would Quaritch have become such a Draco in Leather Pants if Cameron hadn't been preaching so long and so hard about the Na'vi in the lead-up to the film?
I hadn't heard much about the film until there was that Hype Backlash after the first trailer. Really, the fanboys have no one to blame for that one for themselves. I also thought it stood up on it's own merits, even if it was little preachy. Then again, I deliberately avoided most of the hype, like I usually do.
Tumblr|deviantArt|How to Be a furry
I went into the movie knowing the hype, disagreeing with the politics but plenty prepared to enjoy the movie because its just another silly half thought-out Hollywood Sci-Fi with awesome special effects. And I was fine with it till the end of the movie when the humans are being herded back to their planet and Jake says "The aliens were sent back to their dying world" with such contempt. That's when I went from rolling my eyes to being royally pissed off.
Cameron was just determined to ram that "You suck" message down our throats. Its like I was trying to ignore that and enjoy the spectacle and Cameron himself cut in at the last minute and said "No! Look at me! You suck!! You're supposed to be feeling bad right now because you're so horrible! I hate you. I wish I was running around in a forest with elves all day instead of spending all my time with you stupid mouth breathers."
Point is, the contempt is plenty there in the movie. It wouldn't have mattered if Cameron had kept his mouth shut in the interviews. It was extremely obvious.
So, the entire film was ruined by the delivery of a single line? That's a little extreme.
Given that we, as an audience, are meant to sympathize more with the Na'Vi than with the majority of humans (through Jake), it is my opinion that the "You" in the "You suck" is diminished, unless there is an intended Freudian Admission of poor planetary stewardship on the part of the viewer.
"But it's the humans!" you say?
So people generate sympathy for Dogs? For Cats?
We movie goers often see people slaughtered en mass—but as soon a Dog is killed, the Moral Event Horizon is crossed.
I don't buy that reaction as being legitimate outside of the single viewer, though I do agree it is in part the Green Aesop. The only thing we really share with the RDA is that we're both humans from earth. They screwed earth up, we...haven't reached their level yet. If anything it's "Don't be like these assholes" rather than "You are these assholes" if a strong connection/Sympathy set does exist between the viewer and the RDA.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
No one is beyond forgiveness and if these people are going back to their planet to die, they're inheriting a dying world from their ancestors, so Cameron's Moral Myopia stands bare, plain and proud as always. He hates us. He'd hate you or I if he ever met us. Thats just who this guy is.
- Heroic Sacrifice: How did Dr. Grace Augustine die by a gunshot wound just to keep her friend Jake alive you ask? She was just at the wrong place at the wrong time, got herself into a path a speeding bullet blindly fired by Quartrich when he was shooting at the air transport. The whole RDA has been corrupted by Colonel Miles Quartrich, he declares the RDA can take what they want by force. The colonel’s evil has nearly set the entire Jungle planet on fire; Very soon the whole planet of Pandora itself will be blazing. Regardless, Grace Augistine died for to help protect the planet and people that she loved, her love for the Na’vi will always be remembered by the people of the Omaticaya Clan.
A Heroic Sacrifice is a conscious act where the person deliberately puts themselves in harm's/death's way. Grace just happened to get shot and die. Doesn't apply.
If you want to argue the point you have to say a little more than that.
The reason I object is because from my own point of view, Grace Augustine did put herself in harms way, Colonel Miles Quaritch killed her so he could get to Jake Sully. Grace died evacuating the entire AVATAR Team, Including her most trusted friend Jake. Dr. Grace Augustine did not die in vain, she gave her life helping and serving others. Grace also served as a mentor who taught many Na'Vi, including Princess Neytiri, English. It was an honor for Grace to lay down her life for her love of all Na'Vi on Pandora. Many truths we cling to about certain things, such as Grace Agustine, depend on one's own point of view. In closing, the 2nd reason is also that I do care alot about Grace Augustine and her cause to protect Pandora and all life on it from disaster.
Edited by Morpheus6177
Grace was indeed in harm's way, but a Heroic Sacrifice implies that in the sacrificial moment, the person sacrificing him/herself is drastically rising the threat to his/her own well-being (usually to the point of assured death), while reducing the threat on another. During the entire escape sequence, all the protagonists were under the same threat, and Grace made no attempt to 'lower' the threat posed to anyone else. Grace just happened to take a bullet.
If she had jumped in front of Quaritch to save Sully from the bullet, that would have been a Heroic Sacrifice. She didn't choose to get shot to save someone, she just happened to get shot and die.
Read through ANY of the other pages where people have gone "hurr durr WMD hurrr" dozens of times and been soundly crushed each time.
After the corrupt, fascist, and warmongering Colonel Miles Quaritch killed Neytiri’s Father and destroyed The Hometree, from the anger in her eyes, she wanted revenge badly. One thing we all know for sure, never make a female Na’Vi angry, especially one as beautiful as Princess Neytiri of the Omaticaya Clan. As for Jake Sully, he and the remaining AVATAR Team are up to the end of their rope with Quaritch’s corrupt and genocidal war policies and are ready to rise up against him and his RDA Special Ops, the time to avenge Dr. Grace Augustine’s death would soon be upon them.
Edited by Morpheus6177
- Give Me Liberty or Give Me Death!/Rousing Speech
- Jake Sully gave the following speech as he "Took things to a whole new level" by uniting all the Na’Vi Clans under one banner. From my point of view and the point of view of others, James Cameron’s film is “Braveheart” from a another world or even from another planet.
- "The Sky People have sent us a message... that they can take whatever they want. That no one can stop them. Well, we will send them a message. You ride out as fast as the wind can carry you. You tell the other clans to come. Tell them Toruk Makto calls to them! You fly now, with me! My brothers! Sisters! And we will show the Sky People... that they can not take whatever they want! And that this... this is our land!"
— Jake Sully, 2009 - Jake Sully gave the following speech as he "Took things to a whole new level" by uniting all the Na’Vi Clans under one banner. From my point of view and the point of view of others, James Cameron’s film is “Braveheart” from a another world or even from another planet.
On the "No OSHA compliance" - the original wording implied it was rolling around for he entire trip, they unlocked it when they were close and flying slowly. There were not 'many banks and turns' at all until AFTER Jake blows the crap out of it, and I really do not see what the flux vortex has to do with it at all (does it move around based on an electronic system? no.)
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If a trope entry is flat-out wrong, there's no discussion needed. Just remove it and give reason. Also, it's been removed already since No OSHA Compliance only applies to factory settings.
This movie wouldn't have been so bad if it had a Gray and Grey morality thing going on.Yeah,the humans were assholes and should have respected the native people better(I will not excuse that they burned down the hometree)however the Navi who have faults are always made out to be saints.Even if they start something it's always the Human side to get the blame.One things that ticks me off to heck is the message that primatism will save the earth.Do you know what it, won't.For without advancement in human growth people who be dying of disieses,drinking unsafe water,eating unsafe stuff,no advanced proper ways for medical treatment,and there is alot more stuff I could mention.Imperialism is bad but using the land is not always bad.Yes,if you do it in a repsonsible way then it is okay.People who usually respect the land most of the time put it above the well being of their own people.Yeah,the Navi can accomplish this because they can connect to nature on their own planet.But what James Cameron doesn't get is that nature here on earth is not a living being but a garden that needs good care takers.I believe God made the earth but put humanity as keepers of the earth and most of all he is not apart of nature.Another thing that bugs me is that in the movie it generalizes the human's side as all flat earth athiest when I think there could have been multiple people of different faiths even if the majority were white.They might have believed in the plausibilty of Ewa being alive.I won't to help the earth but the way James Cameron handles it is very obnoxious.Heck,the guy is a hypocrite about spirtuality because he said once faith is all crud but at the same time he praises the Navi for being religious.I heard someone say that those goup of humans were assholes and we are not to imitate their actions however it's still so grating how one deminisional they made the human side.We humans have flaws but I believe if we went to a world that was a jungle you still would find some assholes even if you live it was set in a technology free enviornment.I think it should be any one with free will can basically sin and did despicable stuff regardless of surroundings.Lastly,the double standards of this movie tick me off because if you are technology based advance culture then you must be given no respect and expect to conform to the more primitive culture.
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Wrong. Technology is explicitly neutral - the Na'vi have 'technology' too, something the 'lol spess mehrens hurrr durrrrr' people seem to forget, as well as the entire existence of the avatars. Free will exists, and I would genuinely be surprised if anyone didn't think Tsu'tey was a bit of an arse at first before he realised that Jake had honestly changed. Nobody cares about your invisible friend.
I actually think Jake is still is an arse mainly because he stole his girl. Heck, I would be happy if Tsu'tey became the main character instead of Jake.Heck, it would have been a good twist having Jake be the decoy protaganist instead of the lead. Plus, Tsu'tey I believe would have been a better leading man. If they had developed Tsu'tey beyond the native rival then it could have been better plus I it would have been cool for him to hook up with Trudy.Come on think of it it would put a spin instead of the male outsider falling for the female native.It would be the male native falling for the female outsider.Heck,I don't believe the humans were justified in shooting the Hometree but it doesn't stop the movie from being anvilicious and obnoxious in it's handling of messages.I think the real hate for the movie is that the Navi are just too perfect and seem to live on a planet that gives them everything.The reason why humanity can't live with nature because nature is hostile and tends to be unforgiving.Yes,humanity shouldn't abuse nature but nature can be just as harsh and cruel as well.Plus when I meant technology I meant more advanced wise.And by the sound of your tone I believe of one of those athiests who scoff at people believing in God.
Way too many assumptions here that have basically become 'standard' among uninformed bashers.
- The Na'vi are not 'given' everything on a plate. Pandora is very much a Death World (although it looks very attractive), and survival will be extremely difficult. If anything, Pandora's nature tends to be more "hostile and unforgiving" than Earth's, because you don't see black panthers from hell twice the size of a Buick here.
- As weird as it may sound, Avatar is very much a parable (a rather secular one, but still a parable). The pro-environment and anti-imperialism message is pretty much everywhere. Hence, the film being anvillicious is expected. Calling the film handling its message "obnoxious" is more of a personal problem, since many people do claim that the message being delivered is one that needs to be heard.
- Jake "stealing" Neytiri is another weird point, but let's face it: Neytiri didn't exactly enjoy Tsu'tey's company like she did with Jake. The "mated pair" thing was out of clan duty, rather than love. And in the end, all is forgiven after Tsu'tey finds out Jake's actually the sixth messiah of their species.
- OK, a Tsu'tey/Trudy ship would just be weird, and your reversal of "male outsider/female native" doesn't fit since Trudy didn't get an avatar. But if that's your Crack Pairing...go crazy if you want.
- The "invisible friend" comment and counter-comment is completely unneeded. If you want to debate about religion, do it somewhere else.
- If you haven't noticed, it's not so much "all humans are flat-earth atheists" as it is "humans are greedy and imperialistic". There is zero mention of any belief systems the humans may or may not have. The story is focused on the Na'vi anyways.
The biggest thing is the second point: Avatar is a (secular) parable. Due to your standing as a Christian, your lessons taken from the movie should be pro-environment and whatnot. Since the execution wasn't in-line with Christian doctrines, you're just going to get off-track when you look too closely.
The talk about trees and connections leads to 10^16 connections across the planet. That's only one order of magnitude above the human brain w/ 10^15 synapses.
Scifi Writers Have No Sense Of Scale?
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It's still an order of magnitude. That means that the trees have ten times as many connections as a human brain.
one more trope here ?
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RubberForeheadAliens
doesn't this apply as well ?
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Not really. The Na'vi go FAR beyond that, they are the most expensive and detailed scifi aliens EVER. That page is about prosthetics/wigs/bodypaint/etc in order to create an alien species. From the very page: "Also, with advances in technology, CGI and animatronic aliens are becoming more common." directly under a part about avoiding the above.
This movie wouldn't have been so bad if it had a Gray and Grey morality thing going on.
Yeah, the humans were assholes and should have respected the native people better(I will not excuse that they burned down the hometree)however the Navi who have faults are always made out to be saints. Even if they start something it's always the Human side to get the blame. One things that ticks me off to heck is the message that primatism will save the earth. Do you know what, it won't. For without advancement in human growth people who be dying of diseases, drinking unsafe water, eating unsafe stuff, no advanced proper ways for medical treatment, and there is alot more stuff I could mention.
Imperialism is bad but using the land is not always bad. Yes,if you do it in a repsonsible way then it is okay. People who usually respect the land most of the time put it above the well being of their own people. Yeah, the Navi can accomplish this because they can connect to nature on their own planet. But what James Cameron doesn't get is that nature here on earth is not a living being but a garden that needs good care takers. I believe God made the earth but put humanity as keepers of the earth and most of all he is not apart of nature.
Another thing that bugs me is that in the movie it generalizes the human's side as all flat earth athiest when I think there could have been multiple people of different faiths even if the majority were white. They might have believed in the plausibilty of Ewa being alive. I won't to help the earth but the way James Cameron handles it is very obnoxious. Heck, the guy is a hypocrite about spirtuality because he said once faith is all crud but at the same time he praises the Navi for being religious.
I heard someone say that those goup of humans were assholes and we are not to imitate their actions however it's still so grating how one dimensional they made the human side. We humans have flaws but I believe if we went to a world that was a jungle you still would find some assholes even if you live it was set in a technology free enviornment. I think it should be any one with free will can basically sin and did despicable stuff regardless of surroundings.
Lastly, the double standards of this movie tick me off because if you are technology based advance culture then you must be given no respect and expect to conform to the more primitive culture.
Edited by Anaheyla Hide / Show Replies
There's a review section for a reason.
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/reviews.php?target_group=Film&target_title=Avatar
This movie wouldn't have been so bad if it had a Gray and Grey morality thing going on.Yeah,the humans were assholes and should have respected the native people better(I will not excuse that they burned down the hometree)however the Navi who have faults are always made out to be saints.Even if they start something it's always the Human side to get the blame.One things that ticks me off to heck is the message that primatism will save the earth.Do you know what it, won't.For without advancement in human growth people who be dying of disieses,drinking unsafe water,eating unsafe stuff,no advanced proper ways for medical treatment,and there is alot more stuff I could mention.Imperialism is bad but using the land is not always bad.Yes,if you do it in a repsonsible way then it is okay.People who usually respect the land most of the time put it above the well being of their own people.Yeah,the Navi can accomplish this because they can connect to nature on their own planet.But what James Cameron doesn't get is that nature here on earth is not a living being but a garden that needs good care takers.I believe God made the earth but put humanity as keepers of the earth and most of all he is not apart of nature.Another thing that bugs me is that in the movie it generalizes the human's side as all flat earth athiest when I think there could have been multiple people of different faiths even if the majority were white.They might have believed in the plausibilty of Ewa being alive.I won't to help the earth but the way James Cameron handles it is very obnoxious.Heck,the guy is a hypocrite about spirtuality because he said once faith is all crud but at the same time he praises the Navi for being religious.I heard someone say that those goup of humans were assholes and we are not to imitate their actions however it's still so grating how one deminisional they made the human side.We humans have flaws but I believe if we went to a world that was a jungle you still would find some assholes even if you live it was set in a technology free enviornment.I think it should be any one with free will can basically sin and did despicable stuff regardless of surroundings.Lastly,the double standards of this movie tick me off because if you are technology based advance culture then you must be given no respect and expect to conform to the more primitive culture.
I made a YMMV section for this page. Considering the this page has become bait for Complaining About Shows You Dont Like, i think it is necessary.
Regardless of whether we still think it's funny or not, people keep wandering in and deleting the image caption. Can I call again for something different that wont entice people to mess with it?
Edited by Hadri
I have a plan.
There's been a new batch of Earth images released on the James Cameron Online forums. Among other things, these new pictures confirm that Earth is in an overpopulated and overdeveloped state, with an atmosphere too polluted to breathe without the use of the same exopacks used on Pandora and has plenty of sleazy trash-filled back alleys and unbelievable amounts of advertisements and logos, but is still a very appealing place with lots of technology and style. Cyberpunk fans and human sympathizers rejoice! That jungle planet is so lame.
Edited by TailsDoll "@[=g3,8d]&fbb=-q]/hk%fg"
GODDAMNIT! Can someone PLEASE help me with my link to Narm? I have NO idea how to make it work. CURSE YOU, SINGLE-WORD TITLES.
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I already fixed it for you. To link one-word titles, put these brackets {} around it, like so:
{{Narm}}
hey i have a fridge logic for you, when Naytiri and Jake are about to get it on their pony tails connect, also when Jake is cheking hes pony tail in the bunker when he first goues into the avatar the Dr. says "Don't play with that, you'll go blind" (i believe you get the reference...) soooo when they "connect" to the animals does this mean they boink them?
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That's under Unfortunate Implications already.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Demoniac Daikaiju
I know the removal of the "Similar Stories" is going to be undone. As not to lead to an edit war, I want to hear the justification for its continued existence.
Yes, Avatar has a derivative story—that goes hand in hand with being Troperific / a cliche storm as is easily noted. Do we really need a list of similar stories?
No. We don't. The previous edit adding Twilight to the mix just put this list in Beyond the Impossible territory. It stretched the realm of believability as to basically act as a signpost of the general public being aware of TROPES themselves.
"It has a romantic subplot! Therefore, it's similar to X!" just took it too far.
We've already notated it's troperifficness. Let's end it there. If a story is troperrific, of course it's going to be similar to a lot of other things. I think that goes without saying.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it. Hide / Show Replies
I'd have preferred that the discussion section to be read before the segment in debate was returned to the fold.
Oh well. I await the justification for that segment, Eddie.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Comparing Avatar to Everything Under The Sun is a new pastime on the internet. It's notable, so it should be reflected on the page, but there's no reason for it to be encouraged. I do not agree with the way it is done now. Personally I'd prefer all the references wrapped up into one summary entry of the biggest similar stories involving the relevant tropes just to get it over with, with a note to editors not to take it any further than that.
I hope I'm not the only person interested in discussing this.
Some of it's worthy saving. Most of the Shout-Out section seems accurate. Some of Dueling Movies is also interesting. The real problem seems to be the entry on Does This Remind You of Anything? being endlessly generalized. I'm sure the phrase "Dances With Wolves IN SPACE" belongs in the article somehwere, but the rest of it should go. the gags and terrorism references can be covered elsewhere.
Apparently, it's just us.
Since my more extreme proposal was rejected, a more moderate approach may work.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
I guess comparing something to Twilight is the new Godwin's Law? (*ducks*)
The similar stories section should remain with some of the garbage cleaned out (perhaps some of the wilder comparisons could be moved over to the WMG page.) After all, Recycled In Space is recognized as a trope on this wiki and so a reasonable listing of examples should be acceptable. Also, some of these comparisons to other works have become memes themselves - you've probably seen the joke image comparing Avatar to Pocahontas, and if I recall correctly it was posted to some mainstream blogs including the Huffington Post. Not exactly obscure.
Nah, it was literally just "There's ROMANCE!" and then a few mistaken references and made up connections.
I'd like to see that Huffington Post reference before I believe it.
Then again, I don't have a very high opinion of that paper to begin with.
All of the references from Dune to Last Samurai are already on the Recycled in Space page anyway.
Well, except the Twilight one.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Okay, everyone is comparing Avatar to every movie ever based on these core themes: nature vs. technology, freedom fighter, and protagonist joins the natives. However, there is one story on that list which not only hits absurdly close to what is shown in Avatar but has no other story like it. And that is "Call Me Joe". That is most obviously the origin of the Avatar system, down to the crippled protagonist and blue host alien.
Also, we could just put one of the really, really close ones for the other themes up there too, like "Fern Gully". So you could keep the blatant unoriginality in plot structure on display without the wall of text that is the 'similar films' section.
So basically I'm seconding Hadri's post while adding suggestions for stories that should be mentioned.
Edited by Useful
Call Me Joe made some press. Though nothing's proven, I agree, since the similarities are notable. Fern Gully and Pocahontas are widely known and the example can be made humorously, so I think they belong in addition to Call me Joe and Dances With Smurfs. Like you said, it's the examples that dilute the themes to fit the plot that causes a problem.
Here you go: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/04/avatar-pocahontas-in-spac_n_410538.html ... Google even helpfully autocompleted my search for it. And regardless of what you think about that particular blog, there's no arguing with the fact that it is widely read.
Well, that just confirms it as hot air as it manages to get the ending of both Avatar AND Pocahontas wrong.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Pfft. I was the one who put up the "Twilight IN SPACE!" thing. Lo siento. I should have clarified to begin with, I didn't mean it as a serious reference, I meant it as more of a "meta" comparison in that internet fandoms passionately love or passionately hate Avatar/Neytiri/Na'Vi or Twilight/Edward/Vampires for very similar reasons (don't get me wrong, Avatar is quite different and the better film IMO). The "similar stories" header was the closest one. No need to nix everyone else's edits because mine was just in the wrong section.
That sort of thing is for Wild Mass Guessing—it's the home of meta comparisons.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
It's a joke. It doesn't have to be 100% accurate. But that's not the point - it's just further evidence that lots of people see lots of parallels between this story and other stories (and this isn't necessarily a bad thing - just go ask George Lucas or Joseph Campbell.) It seems that the general sentiment on this page (and on the previous discussion page, for that matter) was that at least some of these parallels merit mention on the main page. Anyway, I've made my opinion known and have better things to do than continue to argue about this, so I'm off.
Edited by NullReferenceException
That deletion was way ahead of the discussion. Looking over it (the discussion) I see no consensus for a delete.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Okay, but I don't see anybody disagreeing that the section is messy. I agree with the notion that some of this belongs on WMG.
I put a little text on it which may help it have a unifying thesis. It really is the only movie here that there has been an impulse toward directly comparing it to so many other things.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
I'll defer to your estimation that no other page has had this particular problem, but I see no reason why it should get such special treatment. Maybe a unique fix is necessary but the only reason so much editing is because Avatar had so much exposure. One day soon that's going to stop.
To keep this page in good spirit, funny, and concise, the vague examples have to go sooner or later. I, like everyone else should, will assume good faith. But I also believe someone who thinks they're funny or cool is going to abuse the similar stories section even if they've been cautioned not to. I still believe it's better to summarize the relevant examples so there's no reason to add further examples.
Edited by Hadri
To be perfectly honest, the only way to get attention to a discussion is through action. I have yet to see the reverse.
But I generally hang around less active pages, so what do I know.
The cleanup is a vast improvement.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Why don't we move all this to Trivia/Avatar? It seems very out of place on the main page.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Because people keep bitching about it. If you want to set up a trivia page for it, please do. I won't stop you and will help you enforce it.
But...I'm also very lazy. So do it yourself, it's your idea.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
It's not trivia. The folder in the main article makes a point.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
I increasingly continue to doubt it. The only valid one, IMO, is John Carter of Mars (because Cameron admits that is his inspiration). I'd stretch the historical president ones into this as well, if only because they make the article sound like a college (if we're lucky) film school paper. The others are just cases of people being more aware of tropes and common media concepts as well as archetype storytelling.
I suspect that Star Wars would be given something similar given its sources in the Hero's Journey if it were released today.
I mean, "It has an eco-friendly message? It's like X, Y, or Z!" and "It has someone assimilate into a new culture and adopt it as his own? That's from A, B, and C" is, in essence, the core of TV tropes itself, not anything intrinsic to this one film. It's barely notable, it's more that this website as well as modern viewers increasing awareness of media tropes in general.
In short, we're a more "Literate" society.
I mean, hell, I can do pretty much the exact same sort of thing for Cloverfield. Should I? Is it notable? But most tropers are not that familiar with Kaiju films to know that the idea of giant parasitic organisms falling off a Kaiju dates back to 1985, or that parasites with obscenely lethal toxins in their bites can be tracked to the late 70s, or that the idea of the monster as a lost and confused animal goes back to the early 60s.
Frankly, a link to the overarching trope in general, as is the standard format for TV tropes, is all that is really needed.
The clincher is that, aside from John Carter, no reference (IIRC, ignoring John Carter of Mars) predates 1975 (Eco-Friendly sci-fi can be dated back to at least 1972's "Silent Runnings"). It's tropers recalling things this movie reminded them of in the most superficial of circumstances.
Sorry for all the edits, I keep finding out more details to damn that entry.
Edited by MajinGojira Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
I'm not sure how it isn't trivia. It doesn't seem to fit anywhere else on a typical media page: it's not a description of the work, it's not a trope, and it's not related to our mission statement. Trivia is unrelated or inessential matters. How is this not unrelated or inessential?
Also... what point? That the movie is derivative? We could say that in one line. I honestly don't see a point other than more Avatar bashing.
EDIT: Also, there used to be a list similar to this on Eragon that was cut for being "too derogatory". Why is this different?
Edited by ccoa Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
The point is there in the wide variety of things which are supposedly being duplicated. It being significant, the great many very different things that are being perceived as being in the film. It is very unusual, that variety. As was stated earlier in this discussion thread.
The Eragon list was a scene-by-scene rant on the similarities to Star Wars, followed by defenses on the non-derivative nature of Star Wars—which weren't quite supported by evidence—leading to natter on that topic... and round and round it goes.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
There's no variety. It's about Genre, nothing more, and vaguely at that, as I illustrated above. Your comment is not an effective counter to the point I raised.
Pretty much every Eco-Friendly (Ferngully—to the point where it's listed TWICE currently) Cultural adoption (Last Samurai, Dances with Wolves) film of the last 35 years is being mentioned, when such tropes are pretty damn old. The fact that both are used together in a number of films is frankly NOT notable other than noting the tropes they have in common.
I mean, crap! ONE IS JUST A TROPE: "Elves vs. Dwarves" should just be listed as is. Hell, the Lost reference works as that too.
Another just deals with a TIE IN GAME having a similar gameplay style. Because we all know game style play types aren't their own trope alltogether, right?
Yet another has just "It has Chick Flick elements!" Really. That's barely even applicable once again.
Others deal with "OMG! IT HAS A DEATH WORLD!" (Honor Harrington, Alan Dean Foster, Dune) — one troper goes on to correct another saying "X did it first!" This isn't notability, this is WANK.
Of the list, only Dueling Movies and Shout Out can really be considered relevant—and a few of them are just "Similar trope, therefore THEY DUEL!" like a bad vs. debate. A lot of the historical references can be considered shout outs to those events and nothing more.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Er, the Eragon list included The Lord of the Rings, The Dragonriders of Pern (and a few other empathic Bond Creatures series), the Earthsea series, and I think the Shannara series as well.
EDIT: My point is that this is not the "first time" that tropers have been driven to compare a work to other works, sometimes wildly different works. The only difference here is that 1) the movie was extremely popular, so almost all editing tropers have seen it, leading to a large number of edits and not a lot of clean-up in-between, 2) the movie is a cliche storm/troperiffic, moreover, it is a sci fi flick, so our young nerd tropers are seeing a lot of tropes that they are intimately familiar with and have seen before (which is why they are tropes, no?), 3) there is a lot of disdain for the movie around these parts, leading to a lot of snark and "X did it/is better" type sentiment, and 4) there is an admin preventing it from being trimmed down or deleted.
Other works don't have most of those advantages, so when someone adds an example of Dueling Movies or Recycled In Space that doesn't really work or is too snarky, it gets quietly deleted.
I'm also questioning the entire Dueling Movies section. In order to fit the definition, one of the two movies has to be deliberately copying the other in order to steal its success. That's not the case with any of them.
Edited by ccoa Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
To be Fair, Delgo is a legitimate example of a dueling film. The fact that it got utterly curb-stomped doesn't change that.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
I'm not so sure, but I haven't seen it. Maybe they are carbon copies.
But there's a pretty big gap between their releases and there's not a lot of reason to believe Cameron deliberately copied the earlier movie.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Reverse it and you got it right. Avatar has been in production for a LONG time.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
If you say so. So, we have one legitimate example, then?
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
One that wouldn't need be mentioned beyond a normal trope entry.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
I'm locking it. Too much agenda crap going on.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Wait, What? You're kidding? I've been sitting here waiting to get your counter-argument before I do anything really drastic and what you come up with is "No one gets to change it now"?
I may have an agenda to get rid of that section/reduce it as much as possible. However, I am refraining from doing anything truly drastic until a consensus is reached. Otherwise, I would have been trying to remove even more of it yesterday. Our concepts of drastic steps do not seem to differ that much because you locked the trope, but retained the edits I made. Since you are generally the one making the argument to retain the disputed section, I have waited for your reply to see if an argument can be effectively countered or a compromise be reached.
And I wake up to find this.
While it is fully your right to lock it, and I fully admit to having an "Agenda" (IE: an goal to which I am working towards to what I feel is the betterment of the article), I find your reasoning specious and hollow. The Edit history does not support your action, IMO.
It's your choice and right to do so, but it's also my right to not like it and bitch in impotence. ;)
Edited by MajinGojira Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
What? Did you not notice that I was waiting for your input before doing anything? What have I done in the past to make you think I would go against your wishes and vandalize the page!?
I am seriously insulted by this. Instead of debating or opening dialog, you imply that we cannot control ourselves and thus no one may touch the article at all, effectively punishing everyone because you won't talk to us or trust us.
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Not about you. Majin Gojira went in and did a big delete. Anyway, a review of the edit history shows that no one has had anything to say about the film's tropes for over a month. It's been all edit warring and opinions.
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Eddie, you're not paying attention. You saw massive bits removed, but did not realize that THEY WERE MOVED.
I DID deleted the following:
- The iPhone tie-in/prequel game features (at least for the first five chapters or so) gameplay which has you exploring a jungle, hanging off of walls and thickly-vined tree roots to travel around, and sliding down hills, all with a fairly simplistic fighting system. Rayman 2: The Great Escape, anyone?
- Or rather, any game ever made that contains a jungle setting.
- A harsh world where higher lifeforms have six limbs, with a sentient species that calls itself The People, who live in trees and have not developed writing because they can store and retrieve all memories accurately from living data storage devices, through the help of the female leaders of the clans. Plus points for the top predator being a big cat with six limbs. David Weber 's treecats in the Honor Harrington universe anyone? The major difference is that the treecats have developed wireless communication, not like the Na'vi who have to plug into the USB port of horses, dragons and trees. The treecats also store their memories in female members of their own tribe, called Memory Singers, not in trees and they retained six limbs, unlike the Na'vi who's forward 2 pairs of limbs fused into one pair. But on the other hand they look like short centaur like cat people and have facial expressions similar to humans.
- Honor Harrington? Hell, Alan Dean Foster did the "Genius Loci Death World Hungry Jungle of hexapod Bond Creatures vs. Corrupt Corporate Executive Phlebotinum-seekers" schtick back in 1987 with Midworld. No USB hairwhips back then, and the skinny agile super-tough natives were descended from humans and short, but everything else is so close, the Green World With No Name might as well be given one at last ... as Ur-Pandora.
Note that the last one basically admits the bias I was mentioning, hence its removal. It's just the Death World trope. Nothing more.
The following were also deleted:
- Finally, the movie Surrogates was about everyday humans linking in to robotic versions of themselves that were stronger, faster and more attractive.
Because it was too vague to count.
- "Ferngully: the Last Rainforest." White guy gets sucked into a tribe of magical environmentalists that are one with the world and he has to hang around with the heir to the magical throne while not mentioning he's the forefront of an oncoming wave of destruction, and just as he's getting acclimated to his new life they find out about the humans and their giant chainsaw-tank and so they get in a fight and he goes and assaults the machine and later they get back together and fight off the machines' assault on their especially magical tree-fort with the power of nature. To make things worse, Avatar was far less subtle about the connection the natives have to nature (esoteric touch-based magic versus a USB cord sticking out of their heads) and didn't have Robin Williams as a cyborg bat OR Tim Curry as a sultry jazz-singing poison elemental.
Because it was a Repeated earlier in the list. That's standard policy.
The others were just moved to a "Real Life Shout Out" sub division. But you didn't bother to look, apparently.
The following was shortened to a single sentence and moved:
- The Na'vi are expert and deadly archers, have a deep and emphatically spiritual connection with their natural surroundings, are not prone to rowdiness (but will become very pissed at anyone taking liberties with their environment), and are distinguishable by their slender forms and pointed ears. The Humans, meanwhile, are fond of high-impact, low-skill weaponry, are master craftsmen, builders, and inventors (epitomized by their home, a vast, multi-layered hive carved from inorganic substance and lacking much natural light or vegetation), express themselves with a combo of gung-ho emotion and gritty determination, and are considerably shorter and stockier than their counterparts. Elves vs. Dwarves, anyone?
Basically changed that to being part of the main trope page as just "Elves vs. Dwarves": Na'Vi vs. Humans.
So, lets review:
A total of 4 Entries were deleted due to:
- 2 Basically admitting to be existing tropes (Death World). Further, there should be a trope for humanoid avatar bodies given is shows up here, in Surrogates and Dot Hack franchise.
- Inapplicability (Tie in game having a gameplay genre that appeared before, better tell all shooters everywhere they're all ripoffs of Wolfenstein 3 D.
- A Repeat you had missed.
Really Eddie? 4 long entries count as a "Big Delete"?
The fact that you did nothing to try and correct the so-called "big delete" does not speak to your favor, as I have seen you do it multiple times before.
So pardon me if I find you explanation and continued dodge of the points raised to be wanting.
Edited by MajinGojira Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
I've been watching this and I'm ashamed. Locking the page is too much too late; it cant be improved unless some kind of consensus is reached on what to include that limits the amount of crap that keeps being added.
Okay, Majin, you are right. I'm frustrated by the amount of time taken up by this one article (out our 40,000+). The prospect of figuring out what was going on with what looked like another big change having nothing to do with actual tropes was aggravating. Especially since an edit war about the 'similar stories' has gone on more than once (see archived discussion).
Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty
Ah. My apologies, then.
Frankly, I'm too terrified to touch the article at this point, so I'm going to leave with one final suggestion.
Tropes don't exist in vacuum. The use of one trope often leads the audience to expect other tropes to appear that have been coupled with that trope in the past. Especially if you're talking about a story structure that is part of everyone or nearly everyone's reference pool. If a movie uses Trope A, then the audience is expecting Tropes B, C, and possibly some variation D to appear. Having them not appear can be as much a subversion of audience expectations as subverting Trope A in the first place. (This is actually an interesting train of thought, and should be explored more, I think, but later.)
For example, if a work uses Space Is an Ocean, the audience is already keyed to expect Space Pirate and maybe Space Whale.
Whether or not you would describe Avatar as derivative, it uses a lot of tropes played dead straight that are very commonly found grouped together. It doesn't do any new subversions or really anything at all new with these tropes. Because of this, it is very easy to compare with movies who have also used these groupings of tropes completely or mostly straight.
Perhaps this is something that should be or should also be on an Analysis page.
Edited by ccoa Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
I was thinking it might be worth entering a reference to the Timothy Zahn novel Manta's Gift. It might be an obscure reference but hear me out:
- A quadriplegic human is drafted into a science experiment to be reborn as an alien, and live among the aliens - The insertion of the new hybrid turns out to be part of a human plot to obtain some sort of McGuffin from the aliens (in the case of Manta's Gift, a stardrive the humans think the aliens have) - The humans basically abandon the hybrid when things aren't moving along fast enough and try to take the McGuffin by force - The hybrid has a big struggle with who he's really loyal to
Sum Dum Gai
Slvstr Chung wants to know: the throat radios we see the characters using when they're on foot. Do these have an official name anywhere? (I'm always thinking, Oh, he's using his vox, but that's my weird brain at work.)
(Avatar taken from Spamusement; used with permission) Hide / Show Replies
Doubt it. Even the air filters that humans have to use outdoors (and obviously play a bigger role than the throat mics) are simply called some variant of 'mask' or 'rebreather'.
Because the "edit page" button isn't showing up for me... under "Hey It's That Voice" you might also want to add that the thanator's roar is exactly that of the T-Rex in Jurassic Park. This is especially audible in the slow-mo jump shot before it grabs hold of the backpack.
Hide / Show Replies
Anyone have any clue when it will be unlocked again? I understand if Eddie doesn't want to deal with it for a while, and it will keep the flame wars from continuing. The problem is that the page still needs a lot of cleaning up, and there's no way to do that now. Sure, we should wait until the fire dies down, but how long will that take? Any educated guesses?
Yeah, I need to edit some of the points I made under "Shades of Conflict".
Tumblr|deviantArt|How to Be a furry
What flame wars?
Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
Probably in the Archived Discussion page.
I say Probably because I haven't bother to check them out, and given they aren't usually time-coded...it might have been months ago.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Sorry, I probably should have said "edit wars." There has been a fair bit of flaming as well, though. Maybe I'm just being paranoid, but I feel that for all we know it could be years before everybody's cooled down about this movie. I STILL come across flame wars for Titanic every now and again.
If we wait until everybody's calm and collected about Avatar to reopen the page, that day might never come. In fact, a sequel has been confirmed, which will get everyone fired up all over again when it comes out in a few years. But we'll need to have cleaned up and unlocked the page by then so that people can add the crap-load of new tropes that the sequel will inevitably have.
It's a very daunting task, and I understand the urge to just lock it indefinitely. But this is the highest-grossing film of all time. We really can't just sweep it under the rug and hope it will go away.
Edited by SpaceParanoid42
Considering the insane amount of Fan Dumb this movie has directly inspired (even in This Very Wiki), I'd say I understand why Eddie did it, even though I don't necessarily agree with the decision. Problem is, by the time this one's Fan wars die down (which could take a couple of years from the looks of it) the sequel's gonna be out, and we'll be stuck with whole new shebang. I don't see a solution. Wonder how FE's gonna handle it.
Tyler Durden is my bitch.
I'd also like to add another entry for Fridge Brilliance. Spoilers!
They never do obtain the Unobtanium.
Molly Walker: I don't really know where else to put this, but I wrote a review yesterday and I can't find it now. Was it deleted? And if so, why? (Just so I know, for future reference and all.)
Anyone agree with my one-year-old suggestion?