Headscratchers / Destiny 2

New entries on the bottom.

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Why is Zavala surprised the Hive were on Titan?

• When the player arrives on Titan, Zavala will lament having chosen it as the location for depowered guardians to regroup, saying it's actually infested with the Hive and that he never thought they'd be hiding this deep in the system. Problem is, Titan is one of Saturn's moons, and Oryx's dreadnought is stationed on the planet's rings. Even if the ship was cleaned out by the guardians between the last game and this one, it's still the main Hive headquarters in this system, and it's right over there. You can actually see it in some cutscenes. Since Saturn is a gas giant, Titan is the closest location for the Hive to move into, especially given their apparent habit of setting up shop on moons. Even if he specifically chose Titan for the useful Golden Age technology abandoned there, he really shouldn't be surprised by the current inhabitants.
  • The Dreadnaught, at the time of Destiny 2, had been completely secured by the Guardians, and its master killed. Furthermore, the infestation on Titan is far, far older than the Dreadnaught's presence. Zavala is entirely valid in assuming at first that Titan was left unaffected by the Hive, or if there was a Hive presence, it would be far weaker than what is encountered on Titan.
  • As said, the infestation on Titan is very obviously far FAR too extensive to be from the Dreadnaught given that it hasn't been very long in relative terms since the Dreadnaught arrived in Sol. It's also worth noting that while the Dreadnaught is nearby, most of the ground-deployed troops fielded by Oryx were Taken, not Hive. It stands to reason that aside from defenses against being boarded most of the Hive aboardship were, in fact, fodder intended to be converted to Taken. In short: if the Hive on Titan WERE from the Dreadnaught, then how'd they manage to build up so much material over the entirety of the Arcology? I mean, between the gigantic thing hanging into the sea on the one side and the complete coverage of a good portion of the superstructure, I'd say that the sheer amount of material is almost equivalent (in volume) to the Dreadnaught itself. I can't see them producing THAT much material in a decade, nevermind a year or two, unless they had a Hive God helping them do it.

Cayde says he needs replacement parts when he can regenerate

• I'm confused on something about Exos: we know that they're more or less like any other machine, they require repairs when needed and if they take a significant amount of damage, they have to undergo a reboot which wipes their memories and personalities. But how does this work with Exos who are Guardians? Guardians are capable of regenerating from any kind of damage, even death. In Destiny 2, we see Cayde-6 with a missing arm and leg and he mentions having to get new ones but shouldn't he have just regenerated them? And it's not like he's lost his Ghost, we see it when we rescue him on Nessus so he'd still be able to heal without his powers just like the players do during the escape from the Last City.
  • Cayde's talking like someone who doesn't have a Ghost to repair him. Remember he doesn't have the Light, so serious damage is permanent until his Light is restored.
    • Right after the player re-encounters Ghost after losing their light, he says that while resurrection is not possible, he can still heal you. Presumably, the same applies to other ghosts. Cayde is fine in the ending cutscene, so he must have asked his ghost to heal him while the player was fighting their way through Ghaul's ship.
  • It could be that Cayde has modifications that his Ghost can't replicate when reconstructing his arm

Why are the Vex so weak?

• Why are the Vex so massively underpowered? The series has established that they are time-bending, hive-mind-wielding alien robots, so why are they so weak? We see them run simulations in real time when you would expect them to run nonillions of simulations in one attosecond flat, the Infinite Forest is said to only hold "trillions of simulations" instead of a more appropriate number like TREE(3), and the Vex never change, never adopt new strategies or apply their time tech more creatively, never outhink their human-level opponents in an instant, never calculate every Guardians' moves and weaknesses and make perfect plans to defeat them, and are often no more than a nuisance when really they don't have any excuse for ever losing. Why?
  • Breaking this down:
    • Simulations: Vex simulations are not purely computational; the Vex are creating entire entities and environments out of whole matter and running them inside a physical environment within their gate network. That's why you're able to physically enter their simulations and interfere with them using bullets. For that reason, the simulations are very resource intensive and presumably why they can only run trillions at a time due to the accelerated time in their gate network rather than running nonillions of simulations in a purely virtual network. This does have some advantages, however, as this allows the Vex to model behaviors based on things that they can't easily understand. For example, the Vex cannot create an Eliksni's mind and simulate its thought processes, because the Vex are a single-celled distributed consciousness that lacks any of the functions inherent to a multicellular lifeform. But they can copy an Eliksni wholesale and then let that entity run around and do things based on certain parameters and then study those. This is primarily what the Infinite Forest seems to be studying.
    • Adopting new strategies: The Vex seem to run on brute force calculations rather than rapidly changing and adapting. This actually makes sense, as the Vex wouldn't see any reason to change or adapt quickly due to their time-traveling capacities. If an iteration of a particular strategy or tactic fails, they simply loop back to a previous point and try something new. This does run into issues when dealing with Guardians and the Light, since Guardians and the Light essentially kick the Vex's time looping techniques and predictive analysis in the groin. From our perspective it doesn't look like they adopt anything new, because we're interfering with the process by which they gradually test and implement new strategies.
    • Time travel technology: Vex time travel has some clear limitations based on their operations and behavior. We know that the Vex seem to use their gate network as a time travel mechanism, and Destiny seems to run on the idea of different universes having different perceptions of time. For example, Oryx's throne world runs much slower than our reality, while the Vex network moves much faster. Further, the gate network links to different points in time and space - for example, one gate on Venus links to a point on Mars some time in the past, and a gate on Nessus might link to a gate on Io a year in the future. Temporal links between our universe and the Vex gate network are also apparently nonlinear, akin to two different train lines with switching stations at different points. The Vex move through time by moving between these links in the timeline, represented by their gate network. It is why, for example, Vex machinery seems to phase in and out of our timeline, because its moving between our world and the Vex network. These limitations are why the Vex cannot easily just rewrite events that happened, because they don't have absolute control over the timeline. An Axis Mind has to be at a specific location at a specific time to be able to move to another location and time in the network, which can leave that Mind vulnerable to being attacked.
    • Outhinking their opponents: One of the disadvantages that the Vex possess is that the majority of their processing power is tied up doing things unrelated to combat. One thing to keep in mind is that at no point in the games is anyone fighting the entire Vex collective, but rather smaller, individual parts of the Vex whole in the form of Axis Minds. And while the sum total of an Axis Mind's processing power can be quite potent, the aforementioned limitations on their time travel technology means that they may be able to come up with solutions but not necessarily implement them. Even the most brilliant mind can only do so much when there are physical constraints on their available resources. That and most Axis Minds are highly specialized with a specific purpose, and are often ill-suited for direct combat.
    • Calculating Guardians: The Vex cannot do this. Literally. Guardians and Light cannot be properly simulated by the Vex; by its nature Light is reality-twisting and unpredictable, able to break physical laws and rewrite reality. The Vex an try to simulate a Guardian but all that will happen is that the Guardian will do things that are unpredictable. Guardians are a back hole in the Vex's awareness that they can only respond to with brute force.
    • Lastly, it bears repeating: we are seeing the Vex in the context of a military force that literally ignores many of their greatest advantages and is able to target them at their most specific weaknesses, and we're dealing with the Vex in a single limited iteration of their infinitely-looping cycles of simulation. Since the Vex steadily brute-force simulate everything and they have the capacity to infinitely loop through time, they are entirely unconcerned with short-term victories Guardians, the Cabal, or anyone else achieves against them. They can just loop back and try again later. The point of reference we're seeing in Destiny is from a few centuries within a single iteration of these infinite loops. If the Vex seem slow to respond and adapt, it's because they are, by human standards, because they have no real impetus to adapt quickly; when you can just process data via simulations until the Darkness consumes the universe and then can loop right back to the beginning for another go, you can afford to take your time. At the end of the day, any victory by the Guardians is fleeting because nothing will stick long-term for the Vex, and they know it. At most, the Guardians are a minor inconvenience for a single iteration of the endless Vex time-loop. If the Vex seem weak, it's because they do not care enough - or perhaps literally cannot care enough - to react swiftly and with titanic, universe-bending force against the Guardians.

Building a Forge on top of the Vex

• In Black Armory, there's a Forge on Nessus (likely Izanagi) that's built on top of active Vex architecture. When the Guardians go to liberate it in the vidoc, we see that this has led to the obvious result of the Forge becoming infected by Vex influence, being corrupted by a conflux. The hell was the Armory thinking?
  • Nessus was, most likely, not even touched by, or barely even touched by, the Vex when the Forge was built, meaning that the BA people were likely just thinking that it was a nice, safe location for a secret superweapon factory and the Vex built up around it for study purposes. Or the Vex somehow moved the forge, which isn't impossible.
    • As it turns out, the Izanagi and Gofannon forges were just secretly hidden on the Exodus Black.

What happened to the rest of the Cabal Empire?

• In Season of the Chosen, we learn that the Cabal recently lost Torobatl—their homeworld and capital planet—to the Hive, and have come to the Sol System in hopes of finding allies who can help them retake it. But aren't the Cabal supposed to be, y'know, an EMPIRE?! One that's a centuries-old Galactic Superpower (it's mentioned in a lore entry that the Cabal ruled the galaxy at one point) whose military is so mind-bogglingly huge that the six legions we fought back in D1 were mere scouts. Sure, losing your capital would be a crippling blow for any government, but an interstellar powerhouse as massive as the Cabal should still have other major worlds in their territory where they can regroup and summon reinforcements from. Yet in the Empress lore book, Caiatl and her advisors are acting like the entire Cabal Empire has fallen and the Red Legion is all that's left of their military. Granted, the Red Legion consisted of their best generals and warriors, but never once is any mention made of the other legions that should currently be on active deployment across the galaxy. We're even told that all the civilians who were evacuated from Torobatl are currently living aboard Caiatl's fleet as homeless refugees. This would imply that Caiatl and her people have nowhere else to go, which makes no sense since Torobatl was hardly the only planet the Cabal controlled.
  • Torobatl may have been the equivalent of Reach for the Cabal empire. The Cabal may have been steadily losing colony after colony to the Hive, and Torobatl, their last bastion and seat of power, joined the rest. Torobatl may have been effectively the straw that broke the camel's back, hence why Caiatl is so desperate for help that she and her forces go to Sol to find any allies they can.
  • New dialogue from Season of the Risen goes into this a bit. Caiatl states that after Torobatl fell, other worlds in the Cabal Empire collapsed due to in-fighting and Xivu Arath invading, with billions dying all told.

The Aegis, and a place where it doesn't belong

• In the Vow of the Disciple raid, there's something that by all means should not exist inside the Pyramid it takes place in: a fully-functional Aegis from the Vault of Glass. Given Bungie's propensity to explain away developer shortcuts through a Watsonian lens, that just begs the question: what the hell is a Vex-based artifact of the Light doing in the domain of the Darkness's iron grip on the Hive and Scorn?

Cayde- 6 and Sundance: Too Dumb To Live?

• Yes. Cayde is reckless. Yes Sundance is showy. But how in the 10 levels hell did it not occur to Cayde-a Guardian with maybe centuries under his belt-that taking out his Ghost in the middle of an active combat situation where any half-decent shot can get a lock on her was a bad idea? I mean there's normal levels stupid and then there's 'shit that'd win yourself a Darwin Award' levels of stupid.
  • Ghosts are hardier than we give them credit. If a single shot could kill a ghost, then now guardians would ever rez. Ever. Ghosts produce a shield around them when they rez, and they don't stay tangible for long periods of time either. Why do you think Hive Guardian Ghosts have to be crushed? The weapon used to kill Sundance was a specially modified Scorn rifle firing Devourer bullets. That's why it was able to kill Cayde.
  • Cayde was incredibly winded after fighting Scorn for a long period, especially given how he tried to fire off a Golden Gun, only to get interrupted, and then pinned down two times before barely managing to escape at the last second. And in all that time, he never saw the Rifleman get into position to fire (he was busy with, y'know, fighting everyone), so for all he knew, he was in the clear.
    • I can buy the former point, though I'd like to debate the latter: While I doubt he could have predicted they'd be using the specific rounds made to kill Ghosts, I doubt Sundance would appreciate getting shot with a regular round, since, you know, getting shot sucks. Not to mention, he had put the Barons away in the first place, so he would be more than familiar with them, and as such, he should've been more wary that he hadn't caught sight of their resident marksman. For all he knew, the Rifleman could be lurking around, waiting for the perfect shot. The Golden Rule of Combat applies here: take cover or die. Had he taken the 5 seconds to dive for cover to let Sundance patch him up, he likely wouldn't have died. Suppose that's the tragedy of it.

"We're not an army"

• This has always bothered me about Forsaken, but what is wrong with Zavala? His fellow Vanguard is assassinated, and he wants to do jack shit. His excuse is something about not wanting to go to war with the Reef, but I don't buy that. For one, if I recall Petra is the effectively the acting head of state (with Mara MIA and Uldren going cocoo for coco poofs) and is an ally of the Guardian during Forsaken. Not to mention, Tangled Shore is a lawless wasteland, so the only ones they should be worried about going to war with are Sov and his Scorn, who, scary as they are, I doubt have the capacity to go and attack the City. Even from a pragmatic standpoint, not retaliating is stupid. It sends a message to their enemies they can be attacked with impunity-after all, if murdering one of the three most senior Guardians out there elicits no reaction, they can get away with anything. And while he ultimately lost the fight, Cayde acquitted himself rather well-he was able to effectively curb stomp the Scorn for much of the fight-he only lost because he slipped up. And the Guardian is able to dispatch the Barons with relative ease. So I doubt a fireteam or two of seasoned Guardians would have much trouble with the Scorn.

Why not take Cayde hostage?

• Taking him hostage rather than killing him has the benefit of giving them insurance. After all, any Guardians sent after The Scorn might think twice if they knew any retaliation would result in Cayde’s execution. At least, it would delay them while they came up with a rescue plan.

Not jumping after him?

• Another Forsaken one: Why doesn't the Guardian jump in after Cayde? It's not like they'd have to worry about dying the fall-their Ghost can just bring them back-and they know Cayde is in imminent danger. So why not take the shortcut? I know the Doyalist answer is likely 'The rest of Forsaken wouldn't have happened if you saved Cayde', but what's the Watsonian answer

It took you that long to figure out who you were?

• How in the hell did it take Crow so long to find out who his past life was? Uldren wasn't exactly an obscure figure-he was the Prince of the Reef and Cayde's murderer after all. It'd be like if, say, Elvis came back from the dead with no memories and trying to hide it from him.

Why did Taniks go after Andal?

• So, after coming back from the dead following Cayde killing him as part of the Vanguard Dare, Taniks the Scarred decides to kill Andal Brask in revenge. Why though? Why not go after the actual guy who killed you? Not to mention the fact that Andal Brask was the Vanguard at the time, and would hardly get out of the Tower, while Cayde was still doing field work. Seems to me like Taniks would have an easier time tracking down Cayde than Andal.

Uldren Sov and The Scorn Barons: Too Dumb To Live?

• More Forsaken stupidity. This time on the part of the bad guys. How the hell did it occur to any of them that killing Cayde would be a good idea in the long run. They got damn lucky they 'only' had to deal with one Guardian. They had no way of knowing at the time though that would be the case. For all they knew, they could've been facing an army of pissed off Guardians-which undoubtly will kill whatever plans they had in the cradle. While yes Uldren was...a little out of his head to say the least...you'd think he'd figure that he and the Scorn should ditch the Prison while Cayde is busy licking his wounds. After all, they don't have to worry about any meddling Guardians if they don't give them a reason to go after them.
  • It's because they're ANGRY. At the world, and the Guardians, at EVERYTHING. And so they want to HURT them. It's the same reason they taunt and provoke you, even as you slaughter your way through their ranks. They don't fear death, so they're taking every chance they get to hurt the Vanguard.

Why would you think they'd kill you?

• The messages Cayde leaves behind the player finds are addressed to people Cayde thought would end up killing him-except all those people happen to be people Cayde knew as friends. Why? Just saying I don't see the likes of Ikora or the Player Guardian killing Cayde.
  • Considering how he regularly liked to goof off and do things his way, and even made a pretty embarrassing blunder in Red War with getting stuck in a Vex teleporter, it's likely that he believed that people hated him enough for said blunders and general cowboy attitude that they're willing to kill him for it. Hence why he wouldn't have been surprised by people like Ikora or the Young Wolf finally reaching their limit and ending him permanently. In short: Heroic Self-Deprecation after realizing all his screwups.

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