Now a lurker. Thanks for everything. | he/him
Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Some of these don't need vindication
, started by 32_Footsteps on Aug 26th 2011 at 6:55:08 PM
If Vindicated by Cable and Vindicated by Reruns are both trivia tropes, shouldn't this also be one seeing how it is the supertrope?
We're all still aliens.
It's super effective.
Pokémon Snap was a rental-only game? Someone explain that?
Edited by 151.230.183.167 Hide / Show Replies
I'm not sure it was. There were a few N64 games that were available via rental only (Blues Brothers 2000, for example), but I definitely doubt Snap was as well. Being part of a Cash-Cow Franchise, it would have been very inconvenient. According to Wikipedia, it was a very strong rental title back in 1999, but it also sold 1.5 million copies, and obviously you can't buy something that is for rental only.
135 - 158 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
I really don't think this belongs here:
- [Michael] Jackson himself falls under this, to the point of jokes that "dying was the best thing to ever happen to Michael Jackson". Up until his death, the popular image of Jackson appeared to be a reclusive nutcase who continually embarrassed himself with insane media stunts and allegations of creepy behavior. The live coverage of the hospital he was transferred to on the day he died singlehandedly caused MTV to start playing his music videos on peak hours, along impromptu danceoffs happening all throughout New York. Within days, all of his albums shot to the top of iTunes. Rolling Stone magazine gave him cover features, public support was sympathetic, and Jackson's image became that of a misunderstood brilliant artist within the span of a week.
This is Never Speak Ill of the Dead meets Dead Artists Are Better; the 'creepy reclusive nutcase' part of Jackson's life hasn't been reassessed or vindicated, it's just been downplayed or ignored in favour of the brilliant stuff he did earlier, and given that the brilliant early stuff everyone now chooses to remember him by was phenomenally successful at the time it seems a real stretch to suggest that it's been 'vindicated' somehow.
Hide / Show Replies
I'd agree with that. MJ's artistic reputation is distinct from his *personal* reputation. There's been very little change in his acclaim as an artist over his career. His personal life was a media circus, and the change in the media tone is merely a change in publishing his artistic achievements vs his personal life.
Good parallel is Ernest Hemmingway, who was a miserable drunk much of his life, but the critical view of his work really hasn't changed, and his personal life is distinct from that of his artistic body of work.
For the section on Literature, the "Atlas Shrugged" entry is WILDLY overstated.
When it was published, it was pretty much panned as a piece of literature. That's still true today - when looking at it as a novel, I can't name any book or literature critic (or even a professor) that has changed their viewpoint on the book from a literature standpoint. It's not as universally dissed as "The Fountain Head", but no English Professor is ever going to point to it and say it's good writing.
What *has* happened is that it is much more popular to read and then discuss its ideas. Objectivism is much more accepted today as a philosophy (though, it's hardly even a substantial minority that considers it a Good idea). Frankly, without meaning to invoke Godwin's Law, the closest parallel I can think of is Mein Kampf. It was similarly panned when published, and is much more discussed (and even appreciated *ugg*) now than it was at the time, but I think we can safely say that Mein Kampf is in no danger of being Vindicated by History.
In the end, Vindicated By History isn't just about being more popular than it was at first, it's about NOW BEING THE MAJORITY OPINION. That is, to be Vb H, the work has to now be the prevailing opinion (or be majority viewed in a positive sense), not just that it gains some popularity. Atlas Shrugged fails that test.
I think either we remove Atlas Shrugged, or change the entry to note that what has changed is the *notoriety*, not the critical (or even substantial popular) opinion of the work.
Super Mario 64? Seriously? That was ridiculously critically acclaimed at the time and sold absurdly well. That just... doesn't deserve a spot on this list.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
The following are Zero Context Examples.
- Mystery Train by Jim Jarmusch.
- Ice Cube's Lethal Injection album.
- Anton Chekhov's The Seagull.
- Arthur Miller's The Crucible and A View from the Bridge.
A few titles that are currently classics: Thumbelina by Hans Christian Andersen, Crime And Punishment by Fyodor Dostoevsky, White Fang by Jack London, Waiting For Godot by Samuel Beckett.
Was the initial criticism of any of these works bad enough to warrant their inclusion in this trope?
It's super effective.
Might not be a good example of this trope, more of a They Changed It Now It Rocks ...
Beetle Bailey wasn't too popular until the start of the Korean War, at which point the title character joined the US Army. The change of setting and a new supporting cast caught on and Beetle has stayed in the military for half a decade.
Edited by JohnHancock
This Page Is Starting to get Rather Long; Do You Think We Should Create Separate Pages for Each Category?
Hide / Show Replies
If we create separate pages, then we ideally create them for all listed categories...
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney
Does anyone know for sure if Dr Strangelove was a flop in 1964?
Hide / Show Replies
I think it was relatively successful — Peter Sellers had already broken into the American market by then with the first Pink Panther, after all. It definitely did better in the Dueling Movies than its non-comedic counterpart Red Alert, but that doesn't say much.
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney
Here are some examples that I was going to add but decided to run by here for a second opinion.
Cleopatra (1963) / Army of Shadows (1969) / Ryan's Daughter (1970) / Mc Cabe and Mrs. Miller (1971) / Walkabout (1971) / Mystery Train (1989) / G.I. Jane (1997) / Rushmore (1998) / Ed TV (1998) / Topsy-Turvy (1999) / Moulin Rouge (2001) / Zoolander (2001) / Grindhouse (2007)
Edited by MLeslie772 Hide / Show Replies
Hm, I wish I could be of more help. I've heard of all those movies, but I don't know how their reception fared on first release compared to today (well, save for Zoolander and Grindhouse, and I think they both aimed themselves deliberately for Cult Classic fame).
Edited by BritBllt "And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
Cleopatra (1963) is Vindicated by History if it is generally liked now. It was a box-office failure when it came out and landed in Worst-Of film books on reflex, but it has finally recouped its costs and is still of interest.
McCabe and Mrs Miller, being an early Altman film, might also qualify.
Grindhouse does not qualify yet, as it was critically acclaimed when it came out. Same with Moulin Rouge! — that one was nominated for Oscars and revitalized live-action musicals.
There is a fine line between recklessness and courage — Paul McCartney
This should be deleted. There is no such thing as 'vindicated by history', as that implies that we, sitting here in the year 2010, somehow have a 'true' picture of the relative quality of works made in the past. In reality, people in 2110 may come to completely different conclusions than we do, and our interpretations and prejudices are no more special than those from any other era.
Hide / Show Replies
Dude, we're not going to delete a useful and well-defined page just because it defies some abstract concept of cultural relativisim. We sitting here in the year 2010 do have a 'true' picture of the relative qualities of a work... as it applies to the year 2010. We can objectively say that something that used to be hated is now, in the present day, beloved. If something that was Vindicated by History goes back to being hated by the year 2110, then our descendents can move the entry over to another trope for that situation: Deader Than Disco.
Of course, some things are more enduring than others in that regard (it's probably a safe bet that Shakespeare is going to outlast most of the other entries), but if we had to write every audience reaction trope from the perspective of the final moment in the universe, they'd all be blank.
If it helps any, what you're describing does have a page too: Popularity Polynomial.
Edited by BritBllt "And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
But with all that said, some of these entries are really iffy. The description says it's about critical reception, but the examples are just anything and everything that built up an audience over time. And the natter, ye gods the natter... I'll tackle cleaning the page up later.
Edited by BritBllt "And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
It's not just about the critics ... in fact critical opinion is much more of an afterthought. The real issue is what the general audience thinks, at the work's debut and at where we're sitting here in 2010. Compare this trope with Critical Dissonance.
Whoever it is that has demanded the deletion of this article, I must insist you keep in mind that we're all just a bunch of nerds here editing a wiki site that isn't exactly the end of the world. So calm down.
Well, the description says that it's the critics, so there's a dissonance between what the trope's defined as and how it's being used. Also, I think a lot of the examples currently listed are Cult Classics rather than Vindicated by History. We need to distinguish between works that found a cult fandom after their time (which includes lots of shows and movies I like, so I'm not putting them down) and works that were vindicated on a general level. Otherwise this page and Cult Classic will just be repeating the same examples.
Edited by BritBllt "And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
I was about to tackle the cleanup this morning, but wow, you've done everything I could think to do - the entries are expanded on, explain the historical context and how they've become successful since. Great job! :)
And thanks to Cybishop for adding a note to the main text that nicely sums up this mini-discussion!
Edited by BritBllt "And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
It should be deleted (or subjectified) because it's not really a trope at all, as acknowledged above. Other than that, the name gets me the most, as if there was some sort of shining light of truth that we now have access to that the poor benighted peasants of the past lacked. Such blatant whiggery annoys me, though I suppose that is a non-starter on a site like this.
And for god's sake, Citizen Kane is not vindicated by history; it was an academy award nominee in its day.
To be fair to TV Tropes, it's a pre-existing phrase. Critics love to use it in talking about works of art that have been "vindicated by history", or avante garde stuff that they think will be "vindicated by history". And of course, politicians use it all the time to justify themselves ("history will vindicate me").
It's an audience reaction trope, but I wouldn't want to see it marked subjective: at least as an objective page, the examples transcend the "me and my friends like it" logic that being a subjective trope would bring. History might change its mind, but VBH is much more easily codified than a subjective trope: what did critics say back then, and what do they say now (I say critics only because "audience" is much harder to objectively measure).
About Citizen Kane: that the movie most critics agree is the best movie of all time didn't win any Academy Awards may be worth noting, but if the reception was always great, it might just be an Award Snub.
Edited by BritBllt "And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
Perhaps when I last rewrote the Citizen Kane entry, I didn't explain it properly. Kane wasn't just a victim of mockery at the Oscars ... it did lose money in its initial run, and was only supported by a thin margin of critics (the ones that weren't writing for Hearst's newspapers). The film was by and large forgotten until 1956, when television airings of it started and contemporary filmmakers like Francois Truffaut pointed to it as the prime example of auteur cinema. Anyway, the failure of Kane came very close to derailing the rest of Orson's career, forcing him from then on to struggle with his entire soul to execute his cinematic visions without corporate compromise.
I'll be working this into the update of that example.
Edited by MLeslie772
Moving this entry here...
- Princess Mononoke was this in the United States. This was mostly the result of Americans being stuck in the Animation Age Ghetto, and the gory imagery in Mononoke which challeneged that. (In Japan it was the highest-grossing film until Titanic.)
There wasn't really any vindication going on, it was a critical hit from the moment it was released in American theaters. The release wasn't handled well, which was blamed for its lack of theatrical success (hard to make money on ticket sales when it's only running in a handful of theaters with zero advertising), but it more than made up for it in DVD sales. I see where the entry's coming from, but it's more like Screwed by the Network mixed with Better on DVD, while this trope seems to be more about critical consensus about a work changing over time.
Along those lines, some of the other entries seem to read more like Screwed by the Network than a change in critical perception, but since I'm not as familiar with them, I'll leave that to someone else.
Edited by BritBllt "And for the first time in weeks, I felt the boredom go away!"
Deleting examples of films that were widely recognized as good AT THE TIME, as shown by Academy Award nominations.
Hide / Show Replies
Yeah, those fall under Award Snub.
Fight. Struggle. Endure. Suffer. LIVE.
Would it be a good idea to list a budget and a box-office gross for every example in order to see if they fit the trope??
Can you put Nelvana’s Cardcaptor Sakura dub on it