Big Scientist
It was decided that it was in the wiki's best interests to make all the Sue tropes description only.
Judging by the many edit wars that have occurred on nearly all of them, I can see where they're coming from.
Shamelessly plugging my comics, Oh yes.
I can see it too, but I'm not a fan of just phasing out examples completely. IMO, that really seems like Mods not wanting to moderate. I can understand putting the examples back, then locking however.
Find the Light in the Dark
Why not just instate it as a YMMV-only page, keep the flame banner at the top explaining why people aren't allowed to edit, and lock the page so that it can only be updated by request?
Because 1. there's so much debate and subjectivity as to what qualifies as a Sue that all non-YMMV sue trope have be declared no examples, so why should Villain Sue be different? 2. I find that any examples can be placed under Invincible Villain without any of the fuss this trope has.
I personally don't believe this trope even exists. The inherent nature of a Mary Sue is to have a character without flaws. I would argue being evil is an inherent flaw. Mary Sues in general are hard to truly define since we never know how the author designed them. But the general idea for a Mary Sue is when the story revolves around them without obstacle. And a villain is by their very nature an obstacle.
A simple Karma Houdini or Magnificent Bastard will suffice.
I'm keeping Uchiha Sasuke as a villain sue. If anyone disagrees feel free to say why, but right now some anonymous IP keeps reverting it out. Here's why he belongs, short list:
Ass Pull Always a new ability with no cost to save his life.
Dark and Troubled Past Yup. Whole family slaughtered, reason for his Revenge Before Reason and Jumping Off the Slippery Slope.
Kaleidoscope Eyes Literally.
It's All About Me The whole plot revolves around him, literally.
Spotlight-Stealing Squad The former Trope Namer.
So Beautiful, It's a Curse Every female, except the one with Xray vision instantly lusts after him.
New Powers as the Plot Demands Need to put out the inextinguishable flames because you're frying your teammate, suddenly you can!
Only the Author Can Save Them Now see also: Ass Pull
Plot Armor Extra strength!
Edited by Eban Hide / Show Replies
I've been the one doing the reverting, and here's my attempt at a rebuttal:
Asspull- Let'see... fight with Team 7 after his reintroduction? Had new Jutsu he learned from Orochimaru. Beat Orochimaru? Orochimaru told him how, basically. Beat Deidara? Elemental advantage + Sharingan can see chakra (both already established). Beat Itachi? Itachi let him win. Beat Killer Bee? Bee let him win. Attacked the Summit and survived? He had help. Not really a huge string of made-up powers.
Dark and Troubled Past- Have you been reading? A lot of the characters have these, though Sasuke's is one of the most extreme.
Kaleidoscope eyes- not a unique trait, or even the first character to have them.
Its all about me- Because Naruto and Sakura care about him; without that connection, he wouldn't be in the story. There's also the fact he basically disappears every other arc.
So beautiful its a curse- This one's just wrong. Yes, a few girls show interest in him. Two really pursue it, but eventually become attached for other reasons. It's also the wrong trope since it's never given much attention or his looks treated as somehow being a problem.
New Powers as the plot demands- For your specific example, Amaterasu was never "Unextinguisahble". Jaraiya proved that the first time it was used. It's not really a huge stretch.
And my bigger reasons; He's not the most powerful or the most intelligent or the most threatening of the villains. He's not invincible. He's being manipulated by the real big bad, who sees him as another pawn. He's also prone to making really bad decisions. Pulling the entry again.
Yeah, I just can't see a Villain Sue fucking up as appallingly as Sasuke so often does. Compare, for instance, Aizen, where it would be all part of the plan. Every time. Even when it couldn't possibly be part of 'the' or any plan.
What's precedent ever done for us?
Even I, as a fan of Bleach feel Aizen is a Villian Sue. But one I enjoy reading about. He's a canon one, so it isn't such a big deal as a fandom one.
I might not know Naruto as well as others, but compared to other villionous examples... uhh... no.
Not only that, Sasuke out right stated he was out of chakra when he fought Deidara. The next thing he does is pull a summoning jutsu, which is CHAKRA TAXING. Emphasis on taxing. Not trying to be rude, just still a bit mad that no one pointed out that using up all your chakra like Sasuke did should kill you instantly.
Y'know, all these various "Sue" labels are completely useless. They ascribe author intent, whatever it is, which is impossible to prove or disprove. Really, I don't see how any of them are different from being an Internet Psychiatrist or plain old name-calling. They should be stricken from the vernacular or, at least, made into terms as laughable and immature as 13-year-olds calling each other fags over X Box Live.
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...wouldn't having examples on the Sue pages serve to better explain how a character can be a Sue in the first place?
Just wondering...
No, the Sue labels aren't useless. They are the exact opposite. They're useful. Proof is, they get used. They are a shorthand for "this character is ridiculously good/beautiful/powerful" and that is a thing that happens a lot. People need a way to say it, and when one came along they embraced it.
Making a value judgement on a work's realism isn't the same thing as name-calling.
"God created man because God likes stories." - Elie Wiesel
Yes Radix it would, but I guess no one wants the extra work.
Find the Light in the Dark
Knows-Many-Things
I think we should put Red Hulk back as the Trope image. I mean that guy screams Sue.
Find the Light in the Dark Hide / Show Replies
Find a picture that indicates that he's a Sue. Just a picture of him would be Just A Face And A Caption.
Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
There are several pictures that could work: Him on the Surfer's board with Terrax's axe, him lifting Thor's hammer, him beating the hell out of the Omnipotent Watcher.
Find the Light in the Dark
Venom was NOT a villain sue!
"Spiderman needed outside help to beat Venom" -WRONG. Spidey looked for help but Venom often made sure that he could never contact any other heroes. Thus, Spidey would be forced to fight Venom 1 on 1 (AND WIN).
"Spidey had to exploit Venom's weaknesses to beat him" -If Spidey tries to use brute strength on Venom, Venom will pulverize him everytime. Spidey doesnt fight people like Venom with strength, he uses his intellect to outsmart them or exploit their weaknesses. How do you think he beats Rhino? You think he gets in his face and says: "Put up your dukes?"
"He could never beat him on his own despite the fact that Spider-Man has defeated foes far more powerful." -Spidey's been beating Venom since his debut. Granted sometimes Venom wins too. Thats not an example of villain sue. Thats just a villain who just doesnt lose every single fight with the hero. Sometimes Spidey wins, sometimes Venom wins, sometimes nobody wins. Thats alot more interesting than the bad guy losing 24/7.
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Spidey has asked for outside help to defeat and/or contain Venom. The first Carnage arc had him sneaking away to call Mr. Fantastic and the Human Torch to beat him. Mr. Fantastic's sonic gun has been used more than once to bring him down.
As for Spidey's defeat of stronger foes, there have been instances of Peter beating Rhino with punches and kicks. In Secret Wars, he one-shotted a member of the Wrecking Crew. Even as recent as the first New Avengers arc, Spider-Man used a cement truck to knock the Hulk, of all people, unconscious. It's weird but it happens. Meanwhile, he has actually hurt his hand punching Venom while Venom didn't flinch. He was never able to simply knock Venom unconscious even though other villains were around Eddie's level (Lizard, Puma, Scorpion, etc.) and have been knocked out.
As for Venom's defeat, as mentioned, Peter would have to use exploitation weaknesses. Early on, it involved tricking the symbiote into decreasing its mass and later, it went into sonics and fire. Otherwise, Peter ran or got help. A good example of this was when he faked his own death and left Venom on a deserted island in order to get away from him.
So yes, he's a Villain Sue. Certianly just as much as Deathstroke or Doomsday.
Edited by AP
Are we allowed to bring in forum characters to use for this or is that not-notable enough? Because teh character I'm thinking of really, really fits into this trope (like, heads and shoulders above every other horrible character I've seen on forums).
The Evil Dr Bolty
Anyone else in favor of bringing back the Red Hulk picture? I understand the "just a name and a face" reasoning, but I feel it would be appropriate if it had a better caption. Something like, "Stealing the weapons of the strongest beings in the universe for a joyride. All in a day's fun."
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I'm not a big comic back fan, but even I can tell when someone's stolen the Silver Surfer's board. It's like swinging Darth Vader's lightsabre around.
Serously, I know nothing about the Red Hulk storyline but one look at that image and I understood. Your caption suggestion is a good idea too.
Rulk's gotten a lot better now that Loeb's not writing him.
Can we change him to someone else?
He was an absolute example at the time of the picture, though. That's all that matters for the page image.
Just A Face And A Caption, not because it's not over-the-top that he's stolen the Silver Surfer's board, but because the Silver Surfer's board isn't all that well-known. Even people who would recognize it might not realize that the Silver Surfer is more than a guy who flies around on a silver surfboard.
My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.
Would you say the T-X from Terminator is a Villain Sue? She has the morphing abilities of the T-1000, is much, much stronger than the T-800 (who, in previous parts, was portrayed as the perfect killing machine) and has lots of special abilities (plasma cannon, lots of on-board backup weapons, nanomachines). I've also heard of comics where she curbstomps the T-1000, killing him with one shot.
Still, I'm not certain whether the T-X is a villain sue, because her abilities worked for the plot of T3, and she got beaten up quite badly, not to say defeated. However, compared to the rest of the terminator universe, she is completely overpowered. After all, she made the iconic T-800 "obsolete".
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I wouldn't think so. Just because she's very powerful doesn't make her a Villain Sue, just a logical escalation of the threat from the previous two films. She didn't hog the spotlight, the universe didn't bend in her favor, and she was eventually defeated using non-ass pull means.
The Death Lords from Exalted aren't really Villain Sues. The scope of their power isn't really that great. They're just ghosts with a few extra tricks and the patronage of the Neverborn; it is quite possible for living Exalted of almost any type to become their equals and superiors. Their armies are heavily restricted (and again, it is conceivable for player characters to match or outdo them at the higher levels). And there is an in-canon explanation for why they haven't destroyed Creation which emphasises how weak they are; the Neverborn are fickle, capricious, and quite insane, and will not accept anything other than absolute and complete success from the Death Lords. The Death Lords are so terrified of what the Neverborn may do to them that they won't implement any plan which they don't think has a 100% chance of success. This on top of the fact that they're kind of kicking their feet on the issue, since they don't really want to kill Creation.
Edited by IsadorLevi
Tropers/{{McJeff}}
Was the Videogames section removed from this page for any particular reason?
Russell... likes to hurt people... for PEACE. Hide / Show Replies
Check the edit history. If there wasn't an edit reason, and it wasn't done by one of the mods (Fast Eddie in particular can be a bit... abrupt with these things), you can probably put it back.
What's precedent ever done for us?
In regards to my deleted post on Cypha's Villain Sue status:
"If you're not sure she's a Sue yet, she's not a Sue. And being really good at something or posing a credible threat to a main character is not a Sue."
The post I made said right up front that she was displaying very strong traits of the trope, and I only gave her the benefit of the doubt because it's still very early in the series and Nanoha antagonists have a history of being more complex than they first appear to be (the Wolkenritter for instance).
In regards to the second point, I guess some clarification is needed: Signum is the strongest melee fighter in the Nanoha franchise. Cypha engages her in her area of specialty, breaks her sword by being hit with it, and nearly kills her with a single attack. That's not a simple case of being good at something or posing a threat to the heroes, that's a Curb-Stomp Battle that would make Sosuke Aizen proud. Between that and the Superpower Lottery that makes her immune to the attacks of every single character in the franchise, it sounds to me like Cypha fits the God-Mode Sue-type Villain Sue perfectly.
Edited by Comartemis
NiceHat
I am not going to try to spellcheck this mess. I'm just not going to. It vaguely looks like it was a conversation between two different people, but for the sake of humanity god I hope not.
- ''Broly even tough not a canon character, and even tough he is is in fact at most as strong as a super saiyan 2 ,He is always portrayed as defeating easily the z warriors (even easier than the current bigbad) and is even regarded as the legendary supersaiyan making him part of thespotlightstealing squad ( that's goku title in the canon manga) , certainly having a ridicoulous size and no pupils only makes him suer he us also constantly complaining his power is rising.
- ''It is made worse in merchandise like videogames were he is portrayed as strong as super vegeto and gogeta ( tough broly is in fact weaker than goku ssj3) even Vegeta who wasn't scared to fight majin buu was completly scared of him ...
- 'Amazingly Some people even think that he is stringer than anyone in the series ever and how he could kick anyones butt
I've taken a stab at translating that first bit into a somewhat coherent entry.
*
As you can see, it's really not a very good reason to label him a Villain Sue, whether or not he is.
Edited by Anaheyla This is still a signature.
He's a Villain Sue because he's a Villain Sue. Brilliant argument.
This is still a signature.
Point of clarification, the original means he defeats the Z Warriors easily, not that he's defeated by them easily. It's saying that he's only suppposed to be as strong as a SS 2 (around the same or less than the heroes), but he defeats them anyway.
After learning about Red Hulk, I believe that he is not an adequate example of a Villain Sue, when there is an even better (Well, worse, since this is a Sue trope) example in Sosuke Aizen. All in favor of changing the picture? My only problem would be that it may come as a spoiler to some, but honestly, people should know by now that Aizen is the Big Bad.
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I just find the Red Hulk image more evocative of how ridiculous the trope is. Also, Red Hulk on Silver Surfer's board cracks me up.
If you want to change the picture you'll have to go through the Image Pickin' forums. Aizen may or may not qualify as a better/worse Villain Sue(I violently disagree with him being one at all, in fact), but Aizen has no defining moment of Villain Sue-ness that can be easily captured on a picture, while Red Hulk's pic is just too good/bad not to use.
Edited by Anaheyla This is still a signature.
I think the whole concept of this trope started with censors in the shows we used to watch as kids. Villains weren't supposed to actually be dangerous, and most times the heroes didn't even have to get involved! The bad guys would just bumble their way to defeat! Personally, I lost count of how many Villain Sue fantasies I had growing up. Oh, the bad guys I came up with- mad scientists, criminal masterminds, military geniuses- not so much to really kill the heroes, just to give them a challenge for once! Well, that and also to kill some of the annoying sidekicks.
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I don't know if I'd call those "villain sue." That can be accomplished with a really effective villain. Creating a challenge, well, that's arguably the point, at least if you're anything of a decent writer.
Villain Sue takes it to a whole other level. This is the kind of person who goes beyond "challenge" into "Only the Author Can Save Them Now" territory. The Villain Sue stories I've seen not only play up the bad guy to be this obscene threat, but also downplay the strengths of the heroes, making them next to ineffectual so the villain can be evil and awesome unchallenged.
I put it up. I read it in a book of quotations, but it's more or less the only published source I can find. And as we know, Oscar Wilde is the default name if you don't know who actually said it.
I put it up. I read it in a book of quotations, but it's more or less the only published source I can find. And as we know, Oscar Wilde is the default name if you don't know who actually said it.
I put it up. I read it in a book of quotations, but it's more or less the only published source I can find. And as we know, Oscar Wilde is the default name if you don't know who actually said it.
All examples are not and will never be allowed for this trope.
For another, all example sections exist on probation only - the moment they cause problems like Natter, Edit Wars, or Flame Wars, they go. The Vilain Sue all examples cause all three.
Therefore, we will not have them. Don't ask or nominate anyone.