Archived Discussion

This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.

Primo Victoria: It's discussion on the trope page, so I cut it and put here:

The Spider-Man villain Morlun, created by J Michael Straczynski, is a villainous example of a God-Mode Sue. He apparently can hit harder than Thor or the Incredible Hulk (due to him being able to cancel out Spidey's durability), is basically invulnerable to whatever Spider-Man throws at him, and is almost painfully hyped as the most powerful villain that Spidey's ever faced, stronger than his oldest enemies. Spidey only manages to beat him through Deus ex Machina, and the second time, hatches from a cocoon to eat Morlun alive.
- Actually, Word of God says that Morlun's real strength wasn't even close to Thor's and he was near Luke Cage level. Spidey just felt it stronger than he should. Still, Morlun has many Villain Sue threats (most of them justified, because of being Implacable Man for sole purpose) , and it was terrible idea to bring him back from death (twice), but for this troper in his first apperance story he was just Spidey's Pyramid Head or Nemesis equivalent, so all his Villain Sue traits were necessary in order to make him one. And the way Spidey defeated him wasn't Deus ex Machina. It's not Deus ex Machina if you prepare it three issues ahed.
  - Hoever, Reginald Hudlin turns him into pure Villain Sue, because he's terrible writer.

Katsuhagi: Added more to the Azula example, because yes, you do need to say more when including a Mary Sue character. That was the point of this cleanup.

Splatter: Baleeted the Azula example. This was discussed over at Canon Sue: Magnificent Bastard ≠ Sue. She's very well-written and her skills are within the scope of the series. Keep in mind that villains are generally supposed to be more competent than heroes, thus there's a larger gap between "powerful" and "annoying" for them. I, personally, would argue that this one's impossible outside fic; most badly-written villains are too bland rather than too powerful.
- Katsuhagi: Fair enough. I almost removed that entire example myself when I first saw it but decided to add some traits that might apply rather than just delete it, having not seen the aforementioned discussion.
Azula was added again...probably by the same person! All right, if you're out there, listen up as I deconstruct your reasoning.

"Master of an extremely rare form of fire bending that takes even the best Fire benders years to master."

Yeah, but most Firebenders aren't trained from childhood by the God Damn Fire Lord!

"For most of the show, succeeds at everything she does with hardly any effort (conquered a city that a massive army led by one of the greatest fire benders the world has ever seen could not in a matter of hours practically by her self)."

Which established her as the Magnificent Bastard, not as a Villain Sue. And you make it sound as if she did it like Iroh did, from the outside, rather than from the INSIDE.

"Guilty of Powers As The Plot Demands on two separate occasions (now she's such a good liar that she can foil a living lie detector with a super obvious lie told just to point out how special she is and can now fly just as good as an air bender)."

The lie thing is up for debate, but Ozai and apparently many skilled Firebenders can fly with fire too. It's not unnatural.

"Is fully aware of her Suedom (openly flaunts how perfect she is. Lampshaded by the creators of the show in the deptiction of her in episode 17 (the audience was bored with one of her fights, and in how the depiction acts like a sue)."

Being "perfect" is REQUIRED for her character, as a chief component to her Villainous Breakdown and defeat is the realization that she ISN'T. And the audience in the Ember Island Players fell asleep because the drill was taking so long to break into Ba Sing Se, it had nothing to with Azula (otherwise, why would they cheer for her in the end?)

And lastly, from the page itself:

"Compare Magnificent Bastard, which might sometimes cross this line but generally presents someone charismatic enough to make it not only forgivable, but practically expected."

That would be Azula right there.

In short, Azula /=/ Villain Sue. Deal with it.

Annwyd: Took out Sasuke from Naruto. For one thing, he's an antihero, not a villain (he's killed a hell of a lot fewer people than other characters, including a mass murderer who was redeemed by the hero); for another, he's overpowered, but so are several other characters (including the hero); and much of the first part of the series is spent detailing how the hero is better and more powerful than him. He wins against the hero once, but that's played more for its potential to develop the hero than for how badass it makes Sasuke himself look.

Ecliptor Calrissian: Where did the page quote come from? I can't find it on Google.

Unknown Troper: Removed the Joker example. If you put in an example that says a character would be a Sue and then list a bunch of reasons why they're not a Sue, guess what? They're not a Sue and they don't belong here!

Ethereal Mutation: It's probably worth noting that the Joker in the Michael Keaton film really did sort of cramp Batman completely out of the picture and wasn't too convincing in his capabilities, but was generally interesting enough to not really bring the Villain Sue aspects to the forefront.

Actually, the Dark Knight Joker sort of is a Villain Sue, but he's just such a Magnificent Bastard with such an awesome performance that even with the fact that he was able to so effortlessly manipulate everything, it works. Definitely a case of Tropes Are Not Bad.

Ethereal Mutation again: Here's the original text that used to be in the entry for The Joker. Merge some of its ideas into the entry or whatever.

The Joker in The Dark Knight could very easily have become this, simply from the ease with which he waltzes into the plot and tears Gotham to pieces from top to bottom, with everyone except Batman (and even sometimes Batman) practically lining up to fall face-first into his Xanatos Gambits one after another as though the universe were rewriting itself to bow to Joker's awesomeness. He is more than saved by need for a seriously threatening villain by this stage of the films, the slick execution of his villainy and most of all by Heath Ledger's jaw-dropping performance, but it's worth noting that the Joker in any Batman film tends to overshadow the titular hero and thrust him into the background simply by their contrasting natures - Joker is a flamboyant scenery-munching Large Ham it's hard to take your eyes off, while Batman is a brooding stoic of few words, hiding his epic genius behind the silence of the cape and cowl. Jack Nicholson stole so much screen time in Burton's first movie that the film might as well have been titled 'The Joker', and Nolan wisely avoided putting Joker in his reboot of the franchise so that Batman (in Batman Begins) would have the breathing room to tell his story first, making Joker an odd kind of pseudo-Villain Sue born of the nature of the character rather than the intent of the author.
- It's also worthy to note that his way of operating in the film is very close to his original appearance in Batman #1. Being one step ahead of everyone, being a physical match for Batman, getting sent to jail but breaking out shortly afterwards...it's all there in that first issue.

Masker:I'm not sure if Superboy-Prime actually deserves villain-sue status. Sure, he is overpowered, but he has often been mocked for being a whinny emo boy with temper issues by a lot of heroes and he has been shown consistently as an immature jerk. He is taken seriusly because he is powerful, but he is not particularly smart. Plus, he actually wept in front of the heroes and gave a whole "why no one understands me?" speech.

Ethereal Mutation: Deleted the following:

Not that we mind, but why does ANYONE listen to Eric Cartmen?
- Because the point of the show is to watch ignorant fools fall for his evil plans.
Not that we care, but why does ANYONE listen to Master Shake?
- By and large, they don't. The point of the show is to watch his evil plans backfire and him become mutated, hurt or otherwise punished. The only ones that do are the retarded Meatwad, and occasionally Carl.
And every other cartoon villain that outwits heroes every time by terribly lying, PaperThinDisguises and luck?
- Yeah, they are old school VillainSues.

Not only are Eric Cartman and Master Shake the Chew Toys of their canons (the latter has died more than anybody else), but they aren't even successful as "villains".

Peteman: I'd say Eric Cartman is more someone who can fluctuate within an episode. On the one hand, he is able to convince half the town to follow him, and on the other he gets his comeuppance often.

Danel: Most of the examples here don't really fit the trope description - they're not really a Villain Sue, but merely a powerful villain, merely there to make the hero's final triumph all the more rewarding. Maybe there's a trope in that, but when I hear Villain Sue, I think of the apparent villain who was misunderstood, who was really right all along - fairly prevalent in fan works, but not usually in canon. The trope description seems to agree with me.

Ethereal Mutation: Villain Sue is author favoritism and plot bias (sometimes also character magnetism, but not very often) towards the villain as opposed to a protagonist. Both angles you mention are equally valid expressions of such. There probably is a tendency that the Sympathetic Sue villain shows up primarily in fanfiction while the God-Mode Sue villain generally shows up in proper works, but since both use the Mary Sue template, they both fit. Also, as Nemesis and variants of The Joker both prove, any villain that operates through excessive use of the Idiot Ball isn't all that satisfying in defeat (one doesn't think "wow, it's finally over", just "I wonder how long before they bring that guy back yet again").

Prfnoff: Removing all Canon Sue examples:

Rebochan: Still replacing the Canon Sue examples - once again, discuss it there, do not force through a major change to the entire Mary Sue tropes collection on your own.

Stuff

Canon

Anime

Naraku: He only gets more and more indestructible as the series goes on, and by the end, everybody in the cast is after him for one reason or another, even Sesshomaru.
Myotismon (Or Vamdemon, if the original Japanese version is Serious Business to you.) Starts out awesomely Badass, definitely the next step up on the Sorting Algorithm of Evil. However, by the end of his arc, he winds up taking New Powers as the Plot Demands to Silver Age Superman levels. By the time he was disintegrating powerful attacks with a wave of his hand and sending a charging MegaKabuterimon flying smack into Garudamon by pointing, you knew it was time for this arc to end (and it did soon after, but not before they went Beyond the Impossible one more time by turning him into a Kaiju.)
- However, his rather undignified death in the second season kind of makes up for this.
Tenchi Muyo: Daughter of Darkness introduces Mayuka, who goes in a different path by being Tenchi's daughter, although, admittedly, both Ryoko and Ayeka can't stand her. However, she's killed off by the end of the movie, sort of. The stone that represents her life force is reborn into an infant body, with the ending credits implying that she really does become Tenchi's adoptive daughter, and possibly adopted by the other girls as well.
Nakago from Fushigi Yuugi. He spends the entire series being a Manipulative Bastard, yet gets to go to heaven anyway because Word of God liked him best.
Dio Brando definitely borders on this. He has unparalleled magnificent bastardry, the main protagonist of Part 1 insists on trying to see the good in him despite going past the Moral Event Horizon and several attempts to kill him, he is massively overpowered in comparison to most other characters in the series, and he always comes back somehow in a new form whenever he dies (be it, with his head attached to his enemy's body, his soul manifested into a green plant-baby which a psycho priest fuses with to allow Dio to take his body and gain an ability that basically makes him God, or reincarnated in a new universe he created in the last form)
The Big Bad of Bleach dances perilously close to this at times. He earned himself the Fan Nickname of "Captain Broken" for his ridiculously powerful abilities, including stopping Ichigo's bankai with one finger. He manages to pull off a truly spectacular Xanatos Gambit to make himself even more broken, and has so far managed to weasel out of his comeuppance even though he's had several Rape The Dog moments. Nevertheless, his Stu status is still debatable.

Comic Books

The Spider-Man villain Morlun, created by J Michael Straczynski, is a villanous example of a God-Mode Sue. He apparently can hit Spider-Man harder than Thor or the Incredible Hulk, is basically invulnerable to whatever Spider-Man throws at him, and is almost painfully hyped as the most powerful villain that Spidey's ever faced, stronger than his oldest enemies. (However, given that Morlun's powers are specifically antithetical to Spider-Man's, it wasn't that Morlun was so much stronger than the other characters, but that against him specifically Spidey was weaker than normal.) Spidey only manages to beat him through Deus ex Machina, and the second time, hatches from a cocoon to eat Morlun alive.
- Yeah... when the dude's goal is to eat you, poisoning yourself for him is more strategy than Deus ex Machina.
  - Also it said that Spider-Man had never been hit that hard by any of these characters, but not that they couldn't hit that hard. Makes sense considering how both Thor and Hulk would likely have the kid gloves on when dealing with Spider-Man (Or Bug-Man)
Two Words. Superboy. Prime. Geoff Johns has acknowledged his affection for the little prick, which is just as well since he's the only writer who writes him anything close to well. (Depending on your outlook, of course.)
Two More Words. Black. Adam. Geoff Johns also adores him to an extreme degree.
Whether the antagonist of Watchmen is a Villain Sue or more Magnificent Bastard is a matter of what you assume happens after the last comic book. He's an unpowered human capable of taking on several (also unpowered) heroes at once, plotting circles around hundreds of the most advanced geneticists and technicians on the planet, and catching a bullet in his bare hands. He tricks a god-like omniscient being not once, not twice, but three times.
The Joker, to a certain extent. In most incarnations, he's able to effortlessly pull one Xanatos Gambit after another, often without any way of being able predict the events as they would unfold, and would generally make Batman and Gotham's finest look like total idiots to ever fall for his plans. Whenever he appears, he's such an extraordinarily Large Ham that he drowns out everybody else. It doesn't help that most writers can't help but give him as large a presence as possible (the Michael Keaton film Batman may as well have been named The Joker). This is definitely a case of Tropes Are Not Bad, though, since most of the Joker's appeal is because he's such an over-the-top, outrageous character that one can't look away.
- Every movie that features the Joker is really his movie. 1989's The Joker, 2008's The Dark Joker, 2000's The Joker Beyond: Return of the Joker...

Film

Freddy Krueger of A Nightmare On Elm Street from around part III or IV onwards. Pretty much invincible except when he chooses not to be, his "defeats" seem contrived at best and were always undone without even a Hand Wave by the next film (where he would effortlessly kill the people who "defeated" him within the first five minutes). Paradoxically, he manages to suffer Villain Decay as he gets more powerful because of his Character Derailment away from a Complete Monster towards some Large Ham master of ceremonies type. By the time Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare came out, the audience in general was so cynical about the series that Freddy's death was just a downright Anti-Climax due to the belief that it would just be undone in time for a sequel (although outside of unrelated pseudo-sequels, they did live up to the promise).

Literature

Zaravaz from the Fallowblade series is such an incredibly over the top example of this that it isn't funny. from the moment he appears, he gets literal pages of poetic descriptive prose about how incredibly beautiful he is. Everything he does is either ridiculously perfect or incredibly cruel. Which the author attempts to justify, by saying he's doing it because humans are cruel to animals, therefore giving the silver goblins (species of which Zaravaz is king) the moral duty to kill every human. He doesn't end up doing it though. Instead he ends up falling into the magical fire used to forge the titular blade, getting "the evil burned out of him" and becoming a nice guy. Who can suddenly fly.
Nick Geraci is technically the antagonist of the Mark Winegardner sequels to The Godfather (The Godfather Returns and The Godfather's Revenge). In fact he is effectively the Villain Protagonist, taking up the largest single role in the story. He is a heavyweight champion boxer, a charismatic, incredibly shrewd crook who survives an aircrash that kills two rivals, is able to spot Batista's fall years before it happens, escapes Michael's attempts to have him killed several times and used as a mouthpiece to point out all the mistakes Vito and Michael made. Oh yeah and he kills Tom Hagen. Finally his memoirs apparently serve as the inspiration for the whole Godfather series.
Grand Admiral Thrawn of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. He's a master of the Sherlock Scan, determining a species' weakness from their artwork. He commands complete respect and obedience from his soldiers. He comes closer than any other character to rebuilding The Empire (save for a resurrected Palpatine). The New Republic almost collapsed from a rumour that he was Not Quite Dead. His Villain Sue status is heavily debated however, as can be seen with the ~~Internet Backdraft~~ civil discourse surrounding him on the Magnificent Bastard discussion page. It doesn't help that he tends to face off with Mary Sues, Marty Stus, and an Author Avatar.
- To be fair, he died due to a crippling lack of foresight, and the New Republic had almost collapsed already (see the eight books beforehand); the rumor of Thrawn's return just helped things along. Also, he is one of about four villains who actually try to restore the Empire, and the other three are worse (Admiral Daala, who never won a battle; and Ysanne Isard, whose grand scheme was intentionally losing the empire's capital to the rebels.)
Arguments have been made to place Dracula in this category.
Lilith of the Nightside series certainly counts, wasting the villains of almost every previous book with minimal effort. In fact, the only way to stop her is to bring a God Sue back to life.
Some of the way through Blood Meridian and This Troper is almost prepared to say Judge Holden is one.

Live-Action TV

T-Bag in Prison Break. For one thing, the guy is ugly as hell but is portrayed as irresistable to every single woman he meets. Also, after getting his hand chopped off he actually seemed to get super strength, killing quite a few people offscreen so the writers/directors wouldn't actually have to sell the idea too much. When it was briefly implied that he would lose his other hand in the second season finale, fans had a lot of fun debating what kind of other super power he would get from it.
Sylar in Heroes has a dozen super powers by the first episode, and is collecting more all the time. He's the smartest guy on the show and routinely out-plans the rest of the cast. He's so charismatic, he immediately gains the trust of nearly everyone he meets. Catch him and he escapes! Stab him and he gets better! He's even Immune to Bullets! He'd have taken over the world by now if he weren't so encumbered by the crushing weight of those eyebrows.
- That was just the first season. In the second, he ends up being temporarily depowered thanks to the Shanti virus. The third shows that he may be having a difficult time getting his individual powers back, though he still can use telekinesis and radiation generation (eventually). And considering that he now has a Manipulative Bastard giving him orders, he may have fallen out of this...and possibly landed all the way in Badass Decay...
Megan from Drake And Josh is a more mundane form of this. She is quite possibly the most irritating Devil in Plain Sight ever and always, always got away with everything from endlessly tormenting anyone she doesn't like to flat out felonies (in the end of The Movie she's given a ride away after stealing tens of thousands of dollar in counterfeit money).
- What is it about Dan Schneider putting Miranda Cosgrove in Sue-y roles? At least Carly doesn't skate out of trouble as easily (being more of a Mary Sue Classic, she doesn't get into it in the first place...)

Tabletop Games

The Big Bad Jefferson Carter of John Wick fame (or infamy - Your Mileage May Vary). As described by Steven Howard:
Carter is an evil mastermind who "runs" all the superheroes and all the supervillains in the campaign. Why? In Mr. Wick's words, "Because he can." "Because he can" is not a reason. There are any number of things that Carter can do. Why does he choose to do this one thing in preference to the many other things he could do instead? There can be no answer to that question, because Jefferson Carter is devoid of anything resembling human motivation. He's not a character, he's a plot device. He's the Killer GM inserted into the game world. Professor X is secretly the Kingpin, and he's read your character sheet.
The World Of Darkness features Villain Sues in droves in both its incarnations. From the Antediluvians, the creators of the vampire clans, to the True Fae who steal away human beings. These characters are such sues that a good deal of them don't even have stats. They're just that much more powerful.
- In Vampire: The Masquerade, the rules for fighting Caine are simple. All the book states is: "You lose".

Video Games

Shu Shirakawa from the Super Robot Wars franchise. Handsome, a scientist with multiple Ph.D.s as of age 22, a half-blooded member of La Gias' royalty, and designs, builds, and pilots one of the most powerful Humongous Mecha ever (at least by OG's standards). He cheerfully ignores women throwing themselves at him, to both annoy and play up the Foe Yay angle with one of the series' main characters. Also a first-class manipulator, with a hand in almost every major incident involving Earth's recurring war with its invaders, including eventually forcing the heroes to fight and kill him, so that he can be resurrected free of the influence of an evil god supposedly manipulating him. Naturally, this all goes off according to plan, somehow all for OUR benefit... and of course, with his trademark smirk in place the whole time. Apparently Banpresto might've noticed this and played around with his Stu-ness: He becomes the final boss of OG Gaiden, but he is far weaker than the previous boss Dark Brain, who actually preceded him in Banpresto villain department (and very un-pretty).
- Let's not forget Shu's amazing luck with getting away with all the crap he's done, since it's implied Masaki and him end up becoming best friends after SRW: Gaiden.
Genesis from Crisis Core, the prequel to Final Fantasy VII, could be considered a Marty Stu, mostly because he engineered the Nibelheim Incident (and therefore the entire original game) from behind the scenes.
- Though it's questionable he had any clue how hard Sephiroth would snap, since he seemingly only wanted Sephiroth to rejuvenate his decaying cells and join him in overthrowing Shinra, he's a Canon Stu for many, many other reasons, including hijacking centre-stage in a storyline he's only recently been Retconned to be a part of, being made (almost) a match for the main villain in power, and having both his voice and character model provided by Gackt.
  - The first and foremost reason why Genesis is a Canon Stu is the fact, that the game expect us to sympathize with him and to pity him, despite his despicable deeds such as betraying and MindScrewing his best friends. Or killing his parents, for that matter. He doesn't even possess the grandeur of Sephiroth's madness and is motivated purely by petty jealousy and fear of death.
Revan from the Knights Of The Old Republic series. At first we're just talking about a Sith Lord who nearly enslaved the entire Republic. By the sequel, we're hearing endless conversations about how uberly powerful Revan is and how looking at Revan is like staring into the heart of the Force. He's also according to one character, immune to The Dark Side of the force, potentially undermining the point of the original movies. Strangest of all, despite slaughtering who knows how many people, everyone seems to be whining for Revan to come back and save them in the sequel.
- At the same time, it's subverted in the sequel when you play as the Exile. You can do all sorts of amazingly lightsided things and yet everyone still believes you suck and they all want Revan to replace you (a rare in-universe case of the Replacement Scrappy trope in action).
  - This may be more of an example of Villain with Good Publicity. Revan's good at convincing people to follow him even when they aren't sure where he's leading them. Everybody thinks Revan was awesome because he was good at convincing people he was awesome.
- Not to mention he made a holocron that taught Darth Bane how to perfect the Sith Order. Darth Bane practically worshipped Revan and this was a couple thousand years after Revan was dead.
Gary Smith, the central antagonist of Bully. He has all the makings of a Magnificent Bastard: manipulative, intelligent and quite sociopathic. He manipulates everyone and everything effortlessly and eventually plunges the whole school into a civil war. So why is he a Villain Sue? Because he's such a repulsive character (and compulsive liar) that it's amazing that anyone would listen to him with the reputation he should have.
- The fact that his Halloween costume was a Nazi uniform should have been enough to tell people that there was something wrong with him.
  - Heeeeey. So was mine. Are you implying something? ¬_¬
  - ...Prince Harry? Is that you, Your Majesty?
Nemesis of City Of Heroes and City Of Villains starts off straddling the line and quickly jumps deep into Marty Stu territory. Everything is one of his Xanatos Gambits, and a lot of perfectly good plotlines have him barge into and take over the story's focus, outsmart your character and your contacts, beat up any villain group he comes into contact with while tricking other groups into beating up the groups he doesn't care to engage, and promptly break every basic physical law established (and there aren't even all that many ground rules set in stone to begin with, either). Yes, that includes even meeting Final Death through a Deader than Dead method.
- At least this makes taking him down that much more satisfying.
  - But have you really? (gag)

Webcomics

Satan in College Roomies From Hell!!! After his first appearance as a gag villain, every single appearance tries to portray him as some Magnificent Bastard that has some major Xanatos Roulette going on, with every "defeat" being a concession to further his goals. Instead, he comes across as the ultimate expression of the Cerebus Syndrome the comic went through, where he's pretty much completely invincible and everything is a Foregone Conclusion (literally; he knows how everything is going to happen because "time has no meaning" in hell, so every damned soul is already there). It's particularly frustrating because it basically sucked all the humor out of the comic to have a completely hopeless scenario that bears more resemblance to Cosmic Horror than to the light-hearted humor comic it started out as.
Richard from Looking For Group. He gradually took over the limelight until most of the comic's humour seemed to revolve around his penchant for gratuitous ultraviolence.

Web Original

In Survival Of The Fittest, Mariavel Varella would fit under this classification - at least in the minds of a majority of the RP's members. Her over the top 'villainness' is simply sickening, and can be so badly executed it isn't even funny. She also seems to have a tragic past just for the purposes of Angst, and, for her age, almost impossbily good looks (including a body that, while rail thin, is also endowed with D or DD cup breasts, which shouldn't be at all possible for her size, build, or age without at the least causing intense back pain). She also has absurd fighting abilities, including backflipping over an attacking opponent who had at least a foot on her, and happened to be a giant angry Finnish hockey player. She then injured him.

Decide the fate of the examples here

Ununnilium: For those who were wondering later, the vote was "keep".

Ununnilium:

Tenchi Muyo: Daughter of Darkness introduces Mayuka, who goes in a different path by being Tenchi's daughter, although, admittedly, both Ryoko and Ayeka can't stand her. However, she's killed off by the end of the movie, sort of. The stone that represents her life force is reborn into an infant body, with the ending credits implying that she really does become Tenchi's adoptive daughter, and possibly adopted by the other girls as well.

So... what exactly makes her Sue-ish? Just being related to a main character doesn't auto-Sue you.

Rebochan: Honestly...I'd like to nuke this page entirely. Part of the cleanup agreed on included getting rid of some redundant or pointless Sue pages and this one seems to have no idea what it is. Is the villain powerful? Well...they better be. They're the main source of conflict. If the hero is really powerful, the villain is expected to be as well. Are they supposed to be sympathetic even though they're not? That's not a Sue trait. If the villain is so overpowered as to be broken, despite being a source of conflict, they belong on God-Mode Sue. Seriously, anything Sueish here is not specifically villainous, so there's no need to simply group any villain that gets Sueing into a category all their own.

Ununnilium: We already had an argument and vote on this; see above. IMHO, for the record, villains have a Sueishness of their own; "check out my awesome character" isn't limited to good guys.

Rebochan: There was no vote on this page, just a vote on keeping examples in general on Sue pages. This page still reads off like "Any villain that is remotely powerful in any way is a Sue." I'm going to try culling examples here, because they're getting progressively whinier. But I still think this page is a waste of time.

Ununnilium:

Some of the way through Blood Meridian and This Troper is almost prepared to say Judge Holden is one.

So... is he? And if so, why?

To be fair, he died due to a crippling lack of foresight, and the New Republic had almost collapsed already (see the eight books beforehand); the rumor of Thrawn's return just helped things along. Also, he is one of about four villains who actually try to restore the Empire, and the other three are worse (Admiral Daala, who never won a battle; and Ysanne Isard, whose grand scheme was intentionally losing the empire's capital to the rebels.)
- Actually, he dies because he lacked a vital piece of information he couldn't possibly have been expected to know: that Luke and Leia were Darth Vader's children. They'd never have been able to turn the loyalty of the Noghri if they hadn't been Vader's heirs.

Justifying Edit. Plus, why is the fact that there have been other people who did the same thing but sucked at it a point against being a Sue?

Heeeeey. So was mine. Are you implying something? ¬_¬
...Prince Harry? Is that you, Your Highness?

Conversation In The Main Page

Rebochan: Right, until this page is cleaned up somehow and not just a repository of random villains, I've attempted to create some order and clean it up the way I've been cleaning up the other pages to stop example creep.

The First Culling

Pulled almost all of these because it seems like the entire criteria is "This villain is really powerful." Of course they are - they're the villain. "This villain in a series that is still running has never been defeated." See Recurring Character. Also pulled any entry that couldn't make up it's mind and said they "border" on it. Your Mileage May Vary? Oh yea, that's getting pulled. This is not a list of characters you don't like.

Inuyasha's Naraku. He only gets more and more indestructible as the series goes on — constantly becoming more powerful is explicitly one of his abilities — and by the end, everybody in the cast is after him for one reason or another, even Sesshomaru.
- He's still played like a chump by the real Big Bad of the series, the Shikon no Tama.

He's the main antagonist. He is supposed to be powerful. And he was still being played. What makes him a Sue, being the main antagonist?

Dio Brando definitely borders on this. He has unparalleled magnificent bastardry, the main protagonist of Part 1 insists on trying to see the good in him despite going past the Moral Event Horizon and several attempts to kill him, he is massively overpowered in comparison to most other characters in the series, and he always comes back somehow in a new form whenever he dies (be it with his head attached to his enemy's body, his soul manifested into a green plant-baby which a psycho priest fuses with to allow Dio to take his body and gain an ability that basically makes him God, or reincarnated in a new universe he created in the last form).
The Big Bad of Bleach dances perilously close to this at times. He earned himself the Fan Nickname of "Captain Broken" for his ridiculously powerful abilities, including stopping Ichigo's bankai with one finger. He manages to pull off a truly spectacular Xanatos Gambit to make himself even more broken, and has so far managed to weasel out of his comeuppance even though he's had several Rape The Dog moments. Nevertheless, his Stu status is still debated.

Two "borders on" entries - they are or they aren't.

The Spider-Man villain Morlun, created by J Michael Straczynski, is a villainous example of a God-Mode Sue. He hits Spider-Man harder than Thor or The Incredible Hulk ever did, is basically invulnerable to whatever Spider-Man throws at him, and is almost painfully hyped as the most powerful villain that Spidey's ever faced, stronger than his oldest enemies. The first time Spidey beats him, it's arguably a classic moment — how better to defeat someone who's trying to eat you than to poison yourself with radiation? — but the second time, he hatches from a cocoon to eat Morlun alive.
- The "hits him harder than anyone else" was, at least, subject to attempted justification. Morlun's powers are specifically antithetical to Spider-Man's; against someone else, he wouldn't have been as unstoppable. As well, it said that Spider-Man had never been hit that hard by any of these characters, not that they couldn't hit that hard (implying they had used kid gloves against the relatively low-powered Spidey). Neither of these were stated outright, however, and many readers regarded them as pointless Hand Waves.
- The Expanded Universe novel The Darkest Hours had three Ancients (members of Morlun's race), but made them less Sue-ish, both by giving them a (carefully-thought-out) weakness to The Power Of Teamwork and giving Spidey a bit of mystical assistance from Dr. Strange.

It may be akward traits, but they are mitgating traits. He's not a Sue. And I say that despite hating, hating, hating that plotline.

Two Words. Superboy. Prime. Geoff Johns has acknowledged his affection for the little prick, which is just as well since he's the only writer who writes him anything close to well. (Your Mileage May Vary, of course.)

Should be obvious - no Your Mileage May Vary and no Depending on the Writer.

Two More Words. Black. Adam. Geoff Johns also adores him to an extreme degree.
- so do the fans.

Black Adam got pulled because he's a Depending On The Writer entry and we don't include those. He's been around since the 40s. And fandom love is Breakout Character, not a Sue.

Whether the antagonist of Watchmen is a Villain Sue or more Magnificent Bastard is a matter of what you assume happens after the last comic book. He's an unpowered human capable of taking on several (also unpowered) heroes at once, plotting circles around hundreds of the most advanced geneticists and technicians on the planet, and catching a bullet in his bare hands. He tricks a god-like omniscient being not once, not twice, but three times.

If you have to ask...NOT A SUE.

The Joker, to a certain extent. In most incarnations, he's able to effortlessly pull one Xanatos Gambit after another, often without any way of being able predict the events as they would unfold, and would generally make Batman and Gotham's finest look like total idiots to ever fall for his plans. Whenever he appears, he's such an extraordinarily Large Ham that he drowns out everybody else. It doesn't help that most writers can't help but give him as large a presence as possible (the Michael Keaton film Batman may as well have been named The Joker). This is definitely a case of Tropes Are Not Bad, though, since most of the Joker's appeal is because he's such an over-the-top, outrageous character that one can't look away.
- Arguably, every movie that features the Joker is really his movie. 1989's The Joker, 2008's The Dark Joker, 2000's The Joker Beyond: Return of the Joker...

He's going again - seriously guys, yes, this is a 'bad' trope. Putting a character here is saying they're badly written. Mary Sue Exemption went away precisely because of this. Anyway, The Joker has been captured, not all of his plans succeed and the characters do not need an Idiot Ball to fall into one of his traps (the Joker can explicitly be manipulated by playing on his psychosis for what its worth). If he's the most popular character in the film, if the fans always want to see him top himself, if they care more about him than the other characters, that's Breakout Character. That is not the author coddling his favorite character to defend him from harm. His notoriety ensures he will never be a third-stringer. But that's not a Sue - that's more than 50 years of the character consistently being the most popular and most identifiable villain in the Batman franchise. And obviously he isn't getting author favoritism because, once again, there's more than one writer! He is not going to be permanently killed because Status Quo Is God. That's not author favoritism either - Batman rarely offs its villains for good in most mediums. We do not include Depending on the Writer in these trope either - the entire original Batman film series spent more time on the villains than the heroes, can we include Poison Ivy, The Penguin, Two Face, The Riddler, and Mr. Freeze too? Why then is the Joker singled out? This is pretty much the central problem with this trope, especially because it's clearly the evil twin of Magnificent Bastard. But I digress.

After Identity Crisis revealed that the goofiness of many DC villains was due to brainwashing, the "real" Dr. Light became the Villain Sue representative of this, beating up the Teen Titans singlehandedly, easily taking down and absorbing the powers of the hero also named Dr. Light, and having a position as a serial rapist retconned into his Back Story.
Doctor Doom can receive some of this treatment at times, especially if he's not written well. This is partially as a result of Draco in Leather Pants syndrome, a slight case of Misaimed Fandom and the character's Depending on the Writer nature, and can be particularly apparent in some stories which suggest in all apparent seriousness that the world would become a utopia virtually overnight if Doom - who is often characterised even in his more positive portrayals as a vain, preening and brutal tyrant and megalomaniac so incapable of admitting fault that he has launched a blood vendetta against the man whom he inaccurately blames for causing the accident which scarred him rather than admit that it was his own mistake that was at fault - actually managed to take it over.

And that's two more Depending on the Writer examples down. Draco in Leather Pants still does not a Sue make.

Mammoth Mogul from Archies Sonic The Hedgehog comics is an example of this too. It seems you can't have a story including him in it without having him boast about how all-powerful and intelligent he is.

The *villain* telling you of his brilliance is not a Sue. Other people have to do it too. And I dare say that such brilliance would have to *not* be actually brilliant to qualify.

.Film

Freddy Krueger of A Nightmare On Elm Street, from around part III or IV onwards. Pretty much invincible except when he chooses not to be, his "defeats" seem contrived at best and were always undone without even a Hand Wave by the next film (where he would effortlessly kill the people who "defeated" him within the first five minutes). Paradoxically, he manages to suffer Villain Decay as he gets more powerful because of his Character Derailment away from a Complete Monster towards some Large Ham master of ceremonies type. By the time Freddy's Dead: The Final Nightmare came out, the audience in general was so cynical about the series that Freddy's death was just a downright Anti-Climax due to the belief that it would just be undone in time for a sequel. Ironically, this didn't happen; Wes Craven's New Nightmare had Freddy from the perspective of the "real world", and Freddy vs. Jason started with him dead and trapped in Hell

Character Derailment. Not a Sue.

Palpatine from Star Wars. The "most powerful Sith Lord in history", capable of essentially pulling any power he wants out of his ass. Gifted with nigh-omniscience, a genius-level intellect, and powers that are unrivaled, Palpatine holds the entire Star Wars galaxy in the palm of his hand. The Emperor has only ever suffered true defeat a grand total of three times in his entire career, all of which just so happened to be Deus Ex Machinas. Considering the scope of the Star Wars canon, that's infinitesimal.
- Note that much of this comes from the Expanded Universe. Within the movies themselves, he's simply The Man Behind the Man.
Darth Vader, in This Troper's opinion as both George Lucas and the fans seem to have fallen in love with him. Annakin, the prequel trilogy version of Vader has even more Sue-ish qualities. Of course, he gets the Redemption Through Death followed by turning into a good guy ghost, grinning merrily with the ghosts of the friends he betrayed (and in one case killed), after having, at the very least, murdered the millions who lived on Alderaan, as well as one of the afore-mentioned friends.

Depending on the writer, then Depending on the Writer meets Breakout Character meets Character Derailment.

Later authors sometimes put Dracula in this category making him Cursed with Awesome and Wangsty.

Depending on the Writer again.

Sylar in Heroes has a dozen super powers by the first episode, and is collecting more all the time. He's the smartest guy on the show and routinely out-plans the rest of the cast. He's so charismatic, he immediately gains the trust of nearly everyone he meets. Catch him and he escapes! Stab him and he gets better! He's even Immune to Bullets! He'd have taken over the world by now if he weren't so encumbered by the crushing weight of those eyebrows.
- Of course, this was just the first season. In the second, he ends up being temporarily depowered thanks to the Shanti virus. The third shows that he may be having a difficult time getting his individual powers back, though he still can use telekinesis and radiation generation (eventually). And considering that he now has a Manipulative Bastard giving him orders, he may have fallen out of this — and possibly landed all the way in Badass Decay...
  - As of the end of Season 3: Nope, back to God Mode Villain Sue. He Got Better. He is also now Nigh Invulnerable, to the point of getting killed while his powers were disabled and still being able to come Back From the Dead. He can now assimilate powers by observation alone, and has gained a power that lets him detect lies (ending any further chance of manipulation).

Okay, here's one I'll admit to pulling despite little experience - mainly because Heroes post Season 1 gets such a seriously bad backlash that a lot of its entries are negative. He may well be a Sue. But this entry does need some natter control.

Live-Action TV

Megan from Drake And Josh is a more mundane form of this. She is quite possibly the most irritating Devil in Plain Sight ever, and always, always gets away with everything from endlessly tormenting anyone she doesn't like to flat out felonies (at the end of The Movie, she's given a ride away after stealing tens of thousands of dollars in counterfeit money).

Sounds like a particularly grating Karma Houdini, but also a really common kids show villain because they always get away with murder for the sake of Status Quo Is God.

What is it about Dan Schneider putting Miranda Cosgrove in Sue-y roles? At least Carly doesn't skate out of trouble as easily (being more of a Mary Sue Classic, she doesn't get into it in the first place).

Not a villain.

Shu Shirakawa from the Super Robot Wars franchise. Handsome, a scientist with multiple Ph.D.s as of age 22, a half-blooded member of La Gias' royalty, and designs, builds, and pilots one of the most powerful Humongous Mecha ever (at least by OG's standards). He cheerfully ignores women throwing themselves at him, to both annoy and play up the Foe Yay angle with one of the series' main characters. Also a first-class manipulator, with a hand in almost every major incident involving Earth's recurring war with its invaders, including eventually forcing the heroes to fight and kill him, so that he can be resurrected free of the influence of an evil god supposedly manipulating him. Naturally, this all goes off according to plan, somehow all for ''our'' benefit, and of course, with his trademark smirk in place the whole time. At this point, Banpresto seems to have noticed this, and has started playing around with his Stu-ness; he becomes the final boss of OG Gaiden, but he is far weaker than the previous boss Dark Brain, who actually preceded him in Banpresto villain department (and very un-pretty).
- Let's not forget Shu's amazing luck with getting away with all the crap he's done, since it's implied Masaki and him end up becoming best friends after SRW: Gaiden.

Just sounds like a regular old villain.

Revan from the Knights Of The Old Republic series. At first we're just talking about a Sith Lord who nearly enslaved the entire Republic. By the sequel, we're hearing endless conversations about how uberly powerful Revan is and how looking at Revan is like "staring into the heart of the Force". According to one character, he's immune to The Dark Side of the force, undermining the whole point of the original movies. Strangest of all, despite slaughtering who knows how many people, everyone seems to be whining for Revan to come back and save them in the sequel.
- At the same time, it's subverted in the sequel, when you play as the Exile. You can do all sorts of amazingly lightsided things, and yet everyone still believes you suck and they all want Revan to replace you (a rare in-universe case of the Replacement Scrappy trope in action).
  - This may be more of an example of Villain with Good Publicity. Revan's good at convincing people to follow him even when they aren't sure where he's leading them. Everybody thinks Revan was awesome because he was good at convincing people he was awesome.
- Not to mention he made a holocron that taught Darth Bane how to perfect the Sith Order. Darth Bane practically worshipped Revan and this was a couple thousand years after Revan was dead.

Revan isn't even a villain depending on how you played the game. The sequel even takes that into account. The only people whining for Revan are the people Revan met in the first game - you know, his friends? Or his minions, depending on how you played (and wouldn't they, the current crop of villains just devour Jedi whole!) And he's definitely not immune to the Dark Side of the force. Nor is he even invincible - it doesn't take much to kick his butt, and the only reason he gets a second chance at being a villain again is because the Jedi literally hand him every opportunity he has - which is why the galaxy hates the Jedi in the sequel. The only person who is always butt-kissing Revan in the game is Kreia. And her motives are already questionable at best when you meet her.

Nemesis of City Of Heroes and City Of Villains starts off straddling the line and quickly jumps deep into Marty Stu territory. Everything is one of his Xanatos Gambits, and a lot of perfectly good plotlines have him barge into and take over the story's focus, outsmart your character and your contacts, beat up any villain group he comes into contact with while tricking other groups into beating up the groups he doesn't care to engage, and promptly break every basic physical law established (and there aren't even all that many ground rules set in stone to begin with, either). Yes, that includes even meeting Final Death through a Deader than Dead method.
- Of course, they start playing with this later. Two of the hints on the mission loading screens include "Not everything is a Nemesis plot" and "Everything is a Nemesis plot".

Considering just how many Nemesis plots you stop...no. No he's not. He's been defeated numerous times. He's on the level off several other villains in the series, it's just that he's better at playing the Chessmaster part than the brute force part - the Council in particular have significantly more screen time than Nemesis, and Crey sneak themselves into a high amounts of plots as well. The Nemesis Plot meme only comes around because since his gimmick is his brilliant planning, all of his plots are massive conspiracies. He still hasn't succeeded yet - nobody actually even knows if "Nemesis" is one person. There's one story arc that suggests it might be the same guy, but the game leaves everything ambiguous. Otherwise, what are our other villains? A mega-corporation that can openly declare war on the US government then bury it in paperwork, a global conspiracy that infiltrates every government to stop meta-human activities, space squids that have apparently been active in Earth's history since the Roman era...top-tier villains in this universe are tough cookies. Probably because if they weren't, there'dd be zero motivation for anyone to fight them.

Genesis from Crisis Core, the prequel to Final Fantasy VII, could be considered a Marty Stu, mostly because he engineered the Nibelheim Incident (and therefore the entire original game) from behind the scenes.
- Though it's that questionable he had any clue how hard Sephiroth would snap, since he seemingly only wanted Sephiroth to rejuvenate his decaying cells and join him in overthrowing Shinra, he's a Canon Stu for many, many other reasons, including hijacking centre-stage in a storyline he's only recently been Retconned to be a part of, being made (almost) a match for the main villain in power, and having both his voice and character model provided by Gackt.
  - The first and foremost reason why Genesis is a Canon Stu is the fact that the game expects us to sympathize with him and to pity him, despite his despicable deeds, such as betraying and MindScrewing his best friends. Or killing his parents, for that matter. He doesn't even possess the grandeur of Sephiroth's madness, and is motivated purely by petty jealousy and fear of death.

How can hijack the centee stage in the story of FF 7? He was only the villain in Crisis Core. And you couldn't have Sephiroth or Shinra as the main villain of that game because it was a prequel.

And here's another bone I have to pick with this trope - you are in fact allowed to have a Sympathetic Villain without them being a Sue. There's a lot more motivating him than "pettiness". That isn't being a Sue - that's being a complex character. This is a game series where all kinds of genocidal maniacs are still given a redemption or a great motivation. Is Golbez a Sue? How about Kuja? Oh yea, Seymour's a Sue too! Right. This isn't Suedom. This is Complaining About Characters You Don't Like. The only akward angle to Genesis is that he wasn't in the original game, but he's still only at the center of Zack's game. Considering how tightly Zack was tied to the events of FF 7, it makes sense that a villain for Zack would have to have some part in those events. Zack obviously can't beat up Sephiroth or Hojo or President Shinra. So he's got to beat up on an original character instead. And we know Genesis can't be on the same power level as Sephiroth because we already know that Sephiroth, by virtue of being strong enough to actually take control of Jenova itself and control *everything* with Jenova cells in it, is stronger than him. Whoops, I guess Sephiroth is a Sue too.

Finally - Gackt was also the inspiration for Squall and Tidus. They aren't Sues now, are they?

Richard from Looking For Group. He gradually took over the limelight until most of the comic's humour seemed to revolve around his penchant for gratuitous ultraviolence.

Breakout Character, or possibly Spotlight-Stealing Squad. Not a Sue.

Rebochan: Pulled one more and this time I'm adding spoiler tags.

Live-Action TV

Arthur Petrelli from Heroes, full-throttle. He kills off Adam Monroe in anvilicious fashion, murders Maury Parkman with a gesture, netcons the first season's Big Bad into his sniveling lackey as a flashback, and oh yeah, has enough power to classify as a rare Villain Sue / God-Mode Sue hybrid. No wonder Season 3 was such a miserable failure.

It just seems to be a lot of ranting and I am aware that Heroes villains can already do a lot. I stopped watching after Season 1, but when we get shows like this where people are always trying to drop as many TakeThats as they can? I get cautious.

Chad M: As someone who has seen the entire series, and was reponsible for part of the removed Sylar entry, I agree Arthur Petrelli does not belong. He was just the uber big bad for awhile. The retcons, his power level and the fact that he killed the Season 2 Big Bad and had both Season 1 Big Bads as his lackey at some point may be annoying, but the show didn't obsess over him and in fact killed him off. He was never the least bit sympathetic, nor did he take over the story more than his power level would warrant.

Sylar, on the other hand, belongs, if cleaned up first.

Rebochan: I think the Sylar issue is actually a problem because he was supposed to die at the end of Season 1, but the fans wanted more of him and he got put back in. He can't be a Sue if it's not author favoritism. He can be other things - Out of Focus, Breakout Character...the key with a Mary Sue is primarily why that character is getting so much focus, not whether they have a lot of it or are particularly strong.

DOA: Even by the standards of Heroes characters, Arthur's powers are a bit much. I'd encourage a visit to his page here for the full list: http://heroeswiki.com/Arthur. The fact that he fits most of the traits of a Physical God, plus a power usually deemed too broken for most of that type to possess as well (Hiro's Space / Time Manipulation), puts him way over the power scale. Additionally, series canon was explicitly and clumsily retconned to build this character up, at the expense of the two previous big bads, Mr. Linderman and Adam Monroe. To Chad M, I'd suggest re-watching the third season, namely the episode It's Coming, where Arthur is explicitly shown in a sympathetic context regarding his relationship with his wife Angela (which contradicts revelations made in the episode immediately preceding it). Also see Graphic Novel 115 (Truths), which shows Arthur's last thoughts, trying to paint him as something akin to a sympathetic villain. The writers clearly intended for Arthur to be sympathized with marginally, but he was such a Complete Monster that it didn't take. Either way, the comparison is still valid.

Also thought it was worth adding that both of the villains preceeding Arthur had nowhere near his unrealistic power. Linderman, for all his hordes of goons, was an old man who could heal people, while Adam Monroe was functionally immortal but had no major offensive powers of his own (forcing him to rely on understudy Peter Petrelli as his muscle). Neither of these characters comes close to Arthur's ridiculous level of power.

DOA: Me again. I figured I'd add a bit more evidence taken directly from the article. Just so it's clear how much this character qualifies:

Pretty much Exactly What It Says On The Tin: Mary Sue is hardly limited to always being a goody two-shoes. This brand of Mary Sue decided to take the dark and evil path, kicking a few dogs and probably cackling about it in the process. Whether it be stealing the Cosmic Keystones out of the grasp of the heroes, effortlessly bringing about the ironic utopia of the other villain, or just generally acting like a cad, he/she absolutely loves to be evil.

: See For the Evulz. While previous villains seemed to have at least a vague Utopia Justifies the Means motivation, Arthur proceeds with his plans despite direct evidence from his son (who he knows travels back and forth in time) that said plans lead to apocalypse. Additionally, he himself can travel through time - surely he'd have taken a peek, given his control-freak nature. Nonsensical plans that fly in the face of logic? Check.

But anyway, this character pretty much shows up as an author's wish fulfillment to just be evil. Alternatively, in fanfiction, it might show up because the author favors the villain and wants a vicarious relationship with him/her. It might be a consequence of Evil Is Cool, taken to the logical extreme. Or, perhaps, the author just has a distaste for some (or all) of the protagonists and created the character to facilitate a Hate Fic, Fix Fic, or Revenge Fic. Either way, the same author favoritism and plot bias are now working for the forces of evil.

: One could argue distaste for the antagonists here - Season 3 killed off every single character that was introed in Season 2 (at least the ones who weren't Put on a Bus) ... and lest we forget, most of these characters were introed during the Writer's Strike. Definitely a case of Writer on Board inspired Character Derailment at its worst.

Often, the protagonists still seem to think that he/she has some inner good in him/her, even when he/she's killed the hero's beloved. Perhaps the author still wants to have their surrogate still be loved by most even when he/she is plotting the resurrection of an Eldritch Abomination. When you see this happening, it's only a matter of time before the character finds out that Rousseau Was Right and get a Heroic Redemption™ complete with a Get Out Of Jail Free Card.

: Both Petrelli boys believe their dad is inherently good - Nathan from the start and Peter, though rebellious, hesitates several times in Our Father. The Haitian openly states he believes there is still some good left in Arthur. The graphic novel ''Truth' takes this further, trying unsuccessfully to portray Arthur as a Well-Intentioned Extremist in the same mold as the two previous Big Bads.

As far as overlaps go, there are two major ones. Sympathetic Sue is an easy one (only instead of having been raped, she probably was the one that raped people and so forth), where the intent is to show that the character just had a crappy enough life to be forced into villainy. With this overlap, they are more of a Villain Protagonist than an antagonist in most cases. Tends to show up most often in fanfiction. The other common overlap is the God Mode Sue, with a ridiculous power level, forcing the heroes to hold the Idiot Ball, and/or requiring Deus Ex Machina in order for the protagonists to stand a chance of defeating them. This is the type that generally shows up in canon. It can overlap with other types as well, but it never overlaps with Purity Sue (although she might become one after the Heel Face Turn, once the plot forgets everything evil about her).

: Sympathetic Sue, not so much. God Mode Sue? Good lord, yes. Ridiculous power level, check his wiki page. Idiot Ball literally qualifies, as Hiro is forced to become ten years old mentally in a ridiculous subplot. Deux Ex Machina? Bring in the Living Plot Device, the Haitian, because they damn sure didn't have any other way to beat the guy.

Probably the rarest type of sue as Villains are always given great powers and abilities to make their inevitable downfall more sweet.

: Without the ever-handy Haitian, there would have been no way whatsoever for any of the heroes to stop Arthur. Not even Sylar. Keep that in mind.

Compare Magnificent Bastard, which might sometimes cross this line but generally presents someone charismatic enough to make it not only forgivable, but practically expected.

: 'Charismatic' and 'Arthur Petrelli' will never be found in the same category.

Charred Knight: Than put that instead of whining about season 3. The reason I deleted it was because most of it was whining about how horrible a character he was, and how bad season 3 was. I have never watched Heroes but from what I heard season 3 wasn't nearly as bad as season 2, and I should point out that Heroes has always had a problem with writing a plot line where the good guys don't act like idiots. Idiot Ball list several of them, and they should probably just move Peter Petrelli to Too Dumb to Live by now.

DOA: I agree with you regarding the tendency Heroes has to write its characters as idiots, but as they've pointed out several times, they're fundamentally slaves to their schedules. It's the reason behind most of the horrid changes they've made, as they admit themselves in interviews. But if you look at the Nielsen ratings (see http://heroeswiki.com/Nielsen_Ratings), it's clear that Season 3 has fared even more poorly than Season 2. Season 2 got a lot of bad press because it was so close to the success that was the first season - at this point, barely anyone cares enough to whine about it anymore. The long and short of it is that Arthur does fit this trope, but as the last line talks more about season 3 than the character himself, that can go. Editing now.

Chad M: OK, I can kinda see now where Arthur might be argued to fit. Honestly I never cared that much because they killed him off in a reasonably timely fashion, which is more than I can say for...

Sylar, yes, the reason he took over the show is largely because a lot of fans liked him, but that doesn't make it not dumb. :) If they had killed him off in Season 1 he would have been a well-done Complete Monster villain. Instead, they kept him around. They let him escape the Company by having him held in a facility with zero security or communication (buh?) He gets his powers back, and one of the first things he does is take Claire's power which effectively makes him immortal (and was one of the major things everyone was trying to prevent in season 1). Then, they try to put him on the good guys' team, and try to make it less ridiculous by giving him an excuse for his murders in the form of superpower-driven insanity. But, not without giving us a Flash Forward where he can keep it under control anyway, because his willpower is just that great. Then there was the sudden and jarring romance with Elle, who was now retconned into having goaded him into murder on purpose, and who promptly starts boning him depsite the fact that he sawed her father's skullcap off. Then Arthur Petrelli steals the powers of the other characters that are anywhere near Sylar's power level, before Sylar kills him. So we have a character who:

-Has a ridiculously easy time gaining anyone's trust (often even when knowing about his past atrocities, as with Elle) -Is the only character allowed to both have a very high power level and not carry the Idiot Ball on a regular basis -Basically has in-world Joker Immunity -Now has three excuses in as many seasons for why he has ever done anything bad

Oh, one other thing, about the author motivation...there are sources that hint that Sylar has grown on the authors over time, in large part because Zachary Quinto turned out to be so good in the role. It's hard to blame them, but they clearly have no idea what to do with the character, so the apparent answer in S3 is everything.

Rebochan: Heh, I didn't say the writing wasn't rock dumb. The character appears to have just devolved into a bloody mess along with the rest of the show, but moreso than anyone else. I just don't think it makes him a Sue.

Rebochan: I'm cool with the current Arthur Petrelli example as it is at the present, This discussion is what should happen, regardless of whether an example stays or goes. We established the burden of Sue beyond a collection of traits.

Freezer: One could argue that Papa Petrelli's (apparently genetic) grasp of the Villain/Idiot Ball keeps him from spilling over to full Sue territory...

Freezer Restoring the entries for Naraku and Superboy Prime. Naraku isn't a Villain Sue because he's strong, but because he's a walking Ass Pull (The "I can move my day of weakness around at will" thing was just the worst offense). Superboy Prime because, regardless of the writer, he's a Diabolus ex Machina in tights. An overused Diabolus ex Machina in tights who's practically a Dragonball Z bad guy. Seriously, he curb stomped a Lantern ring-wielding Daxamite - and that was BEFORE he hooked up with Sinestro and got his own ring.

Rebochan: I would just like to say that while I pulled Genesis again, there's a funny story about Naraku. Since I originally wrote that entry, I've had several people in real life who have no knowledge of this site tell me they couldn't watch Inu Yasha because Naraku was so damn overpowered. I stand corrected - you really can be the villain and be a Mary Sue.

Stranger: And I'm restoring Genesis from Crisis Core. Seriously, I get that the game needed an original villain for Zack's story. But to do that by making the villain a cheap precursor to the original game's Big Bad (one whom Squenix knows damn well to be popular) and giving him such a big role in an event that was pivotal in the original game (where his existance was never hinted at at all), yet doing nothing to make the character really interesting, they pretty much made Genesis a Sue Villain. The same could be said about Dr Hollander and his "Project G" (Hojo and JENOVA project, anyone?)

And I'm getting sick of him getting deleted repeatedly. It's already stated that Your Mileage May Vary with him and his storyline. And personally I'm in the camp who sees him as some sort of fanficcy villain inserted into a story that had already been established in the original game in order to "expand on it".

Rebochan: And I'm pulling him yet again. There's no evidence he's a Sue except "I don't like him and he wasn't originally in the game." If the nature of his Sueness is subjective, then guess what? It's not a Sue. Either it is, or it isn't. if people keep taking it down because of a lack of justification, take the hint.
- I guess he's not a Villain Sue then. Just Gackt cosplaying Sephiroth while trying to sound deep by spouting out poetry lines.

Kuu Mochizuki, the ancestor of female lead Haruna, from Battle Moon Wars qualifies. How else are you going to call a villainess who managed to play people like Gilgamesh, Souren Araya and the Tatari itself like puppets in order to further her own plans to Kill All Humans? No, wait,she didn't just do that! She also forced Arcueid into a Face–Heel Turn with contemptuous ease! Add to that her combat ability (tied to her perfect mind-reading powers), which allows her to always get a perfect hit rate on any character regardless of evasion... and voila! You get a Villain Sue!

Hourai Rabbit: (All spoiler tags removed for the sake of discussion). All of the aforementioned characters had their own reasons and motivations for cooperating with her, if they even did that. Whether it was pursuing Saber/Shiki/Arcueid (again), setting up events in order to reach the Origin (again), sowing chaos and disorder (again) Kuu hardly had to do any manipulating at all. In fact, I got the impression that she didn't really care what happened to them enough to give them any sort of specific orders, it was enough that they continued to cause enough trouble that the player would bring them down, thus consecrating the land for the Soul Suppression which, by the way, was not meant to Kill All Humans, merely the least amount of humans possible. It was a pretty big feature of Kuu's personality that she would always make the small sacrifices for the greater good and considering Battle Moon Wars is practically a mecha game in outlook, that kind of thinking is completely unacceptable to Haruna and co, so it's not as if she brings them around to her line of thinking with a wave of her hand or anything like that. The Arcueid thing was her manipulating the rules of the universe for her own benefit; she was able to convince Gaia that her objectives would result in the best solution for the world (which, it is stated many times, is not necessarily the best solution for humans - that's the job of the Counter Force) and it quite easily works both ways. Her mind-reader ability grants her a 50/50 chance to hit any character regardless of evasion, thus punishing people for relying too heavily on Real type characters when they probably should have been upgrading a bit more evenly but even that can be negated with a very common skill (Alert), not to mention her attacks are considerably less effective at close range (she is most certainly NOT all-powerful).

Not very well-incorporated into the plot? Perhaps. A bit of Boss Dissonance going on? I'd agree with that. A Sue? Not so much.

Peteman: Cut:

Why the author thought he'd be successful when adding a few giant lizards into the background of the scenes in Tatooine was enough to make fans declare the series Ruined Forever is beyond me, but for once the Fan Dumb was utterly, utterly right about the Star Wars Expanded Universe.

The Special Editions came out after it, and the sentence is even more confusing without it.

Also:

On the other hand, the Fair Folk of Exalted are indeed subversions, in that if there's one thing the Exalted setting isn't short of, its opportunities for player characters to beat the unholy hell out of ridiculously powerful beings. Indeed, the entire point of playing Exalted is to get strong enough to not only punch out Cthulhu, but then dance a mocking jig on his head.

Not really a subversion unless you can back it up (maybe with examples of how they promote themselves as these terrifying unstoppable horrors, but it's really just something they do to terrify mortals so they can feed, and they get thrashed by pretty much anything that isn't a mortal.

Freezer: Cut this

[AC:Western Animation]]

Azula from Avatar The Last Air Bender certainly qualifies. Blue flames that indicate how special she is? Check. Effortlessly succeeds at practically everything she does (including the pwnage of a much more experience Chess Master when most Chess Master battles are very complicated affairs)? Check. Takes down a super form in one hit (and based on what happened afterwards, she suddenly had knowledge of chakra points) that even the Big Bad was powerless against? Check. So perfect that its lampshaded several times in the beach episode? Check. Has more Plot Armor than the main character (Zuko lamp shades this in episode 16)? Check. Seems to be all knowing (in episdoes 15 and 16)? Check. All of these combine to form one of the biggest sues in western animation. Don't believe me? The Universal Mary Sue Litmus Test (scored objectively based on canon events and with the questions twisted to reflect a villain) scored a 45, which is considered an uber mary sue. http://www.springhole.net/quizzes/marysue.htm#Part4
- Then the second half of season 3 rolls around and cracks start to form, and outright break in the 4-part finale.

Azula's on-screen cunning and high "Show, don't tell levels" keep her out of the Sue range. The show goes to lengths to show how she gets things done (a combination of cunning, power, enemies underestimating a young girl, and insane boldness). Not to mention, her one-shotting of Avatar!Aang?. Total backstab. Granted, it was a backstab with a lightning bolt, but still a backstab. And as mentioned, how many Villain Sues would be given her kind of Villainous Breakdown?

Freezer: For those unfamilar with the subject of the caption pic, that's the Red Hulk (Rulk), riding the Silver Surfer's board and sporting Terrax The Tamer's axe. His speech bubble says "Most fun I've ever had with my clothes on."

—-

Jeanette, from Gail Simone's Secret Six. She's gorgeous, fabulously wealthy, spouts sub-Wildean witticisms in every single sentence, is a dominatrix to the stars, owns a casino in Vegas, has super-strength, is an immortal banshee, has a tragic backstory involving Elizabeth Bathory, and became Deadshot's steady girlfriend about four issues after her introduction.

Took this out. I mean, what? She's a sue because she's gorgeous? THIS IS A COMIC BOOK. Everyone is. Because she's wealthy? She's on the run with the six now and doesn't have access to her money. Also, the entire six are wealthy, considering how much they get paid for their jobs. She's witty? She's written by Gail Simone. She has superpowers? IN A SUPERHERO COMIC? Oh noes! She has a tragic origin? IN A SUPERHERO COMIC? Oh noes! She's sleeping with Deadshot? Deadshot sleeps with anyone hot enough. And he just betrayed her last issue. And the preview for next ish shows Wonder Woman kicking her ass. It's like me listing "Bane is really smart, super strong, he has a tragic origin and morals and junk and he beat Batman once! MY GOD THAT SUE!" This example is just complaining about a character you don't like. Jeanette is no more competent or less flawed than the rest of the team.

Freezer: Replaced. Much like The Hood, the problem isn't that she's so SuperSpecialAwesome. The problem is that she's a new SuperSpecialAwesome character, thrown in among a cast of characters that have been around for years, apparently for the sake of having such a SuperSpecialAwesome character on board. Not to mention said SuperSpecialAwesomness was more or less crammed down our throats from the start. And the teams - who seem to follow her orders out of respect, not out fear that she could rip them in half. Not many people like that. She may be Rescued from the Scrappy Heap yet, but as of right now, she belongs.

And her pitching a bitchfit at Wonder Woman instead of telling her that Artemis' death wasn't their fault and not immediately catching an Amazon beatdown for her trouble? (ETA: Oh, wait... she did. Carry on) Not helping lower the Sue levels.

ETA 2: Yeah, I'm going to have to recant and re-remove. Villan Sues don't tend to catch the casual beatdown she got from Diana.

Blackking: removed Gary Smith. The reason why everybody listens together is because of how he uses people's insercurities and and the tension between the cliques to turn them against Jimmy and each other.

Unknown Troper: Pulled the drow example, because Jesus Ninja Christ. Reasons listed for why they are supposed to be Sues: the drow can have player character classes. Like, say dozens of other humanoid monsters. Like, say other elves. Powerful, useless magic items - don't see how this makes them a Sue. Highly resistant to magic - oh, my, like dozens of other species of monsters in D&D. Highly intelligent - oh, my, like dozens of other species of monsters in D&D. Fight dirty - I guess that means we need to label Indiana Jones as a Mary Sue too, huh? Worship a demon queen - ....okay, how is that a Mary Sue trait? Raise giant spiders as mounts - what. All of them have magical abilities - oh, my, like hundreds of other species of monsters in D&D.

Peteman: My friend tells me that the Drow weren't meant to be Sues so much as high level challenging antagonists that you couldn't get filthy rich off of. The generous helpings of dominatrix-esque fan service were meant to soften the blow of not being able to effectively magic them and take their stuff.

On a side note, is Father Wolf's mentioning in the World of Darkness part meant to be an actual entry of a Villain Sue or an example of a non-evil megabeing in WOD that you couldn't possibly overcome, since he seems to be not an arbitrary dick in the parts of the literature I've read (admittedly very little of).

Freezer: Clipped this:

While not quite to the absurd scale of Red Hulk, Daken, the long-lost son of Wolverine, is getting this way. All daddy's powers, adamantium claws, pheromone powers that anyone want him (yes, ANYONE), and a sense of complete and utter amorality. Did I mention he's been able to effortlessly pwn everyone he's fought so far?

If he's not there yet, he doesn't belong. Not to mention Daken is a master manipulator who chooses his targets carefully (both to manipulate and to fight). In fact, he's more belivable as a Chessmaster than Osborn is - only his goal is pretty much For the Evulz instead of power and revenge.

That, and he has bone claws, not Adamantium.

Ingonyama: So...how does being a Chessmaster in addition to the other stuff not make him a Villain Sue? Also, his claws aren't adamantium OR bone...he melted down the Magic Can't-Heal-No-More Katana Wolverine used to kill Sabretooth and coated his claws with that. Turns out he's got Better-Than-Adamantium! on his claws now.

Crowley: To Rebochan: Genuine thanks for editing out the "this Troper" on my Ace Attorney example. It's much better that way.

WonSab: Wondering if the True Fae technically count, per se. I've yet to see anyone complain about Nyarlathotep being overpowered.

New Cope: I deleted the Iron Dominion entry (I've included the entry below for reference). The Iron Domninion story arc isn't even over yet, so labelling them as Vilain Sues is jumping the gun. On top of that, they were dealt a humiliating defeat in issue 206.

The Iron Dominion in Sonic the Hedgehog is getting this treatment; despite only facing off against the Freedom Fighters twice, they've absolutely slaughtered them both times, usually by having one of their own controlled by the Iron Queen (a Magi Tech user, which - despite their entire army having no robotics whatsoever - allows her to take control of Bunnie Rabbot, Monkey Khan, and - as hinted in a future comic - Sonic's dad or even NICOLE herself, and by extension, all of the nanite-created New Mobotropolis); the Iron King himself is so massively invincible, both times Sonic's tried his patented spin dash against him resulted in Sonic getting injured; they've managed to acquire a nigh-unbeatable army of ninjas, which includes Espio, chocking up another friend-to-foe advantage over the Freedom Fighters; and they've expertly manipulated the Dark Legion into doing precisely what they say with only token resistance (which is quickly quelled). Clearly, the writers are pulling out all the stops to make this new villain a match for our beloved heroes, but it's also pretty clear they're suffering from Power Incontinence when it comes to doing so.

Isador Levi: I think the World Of Darkness examples need to be pared down greatly, if not removed entirely. The True Fae are beings who are supposed to be incredibly powerful for the sake of the game's horror (and not all of them are so powerful) as well as being unlikely to turn up often and having enough vulnerabilties and limitations that a high-level group would have a chance of fighting them. The beings without stats (like Caine and the Celestines and Death Lords) are explicitly supposed to be plot devices rather than personal antagonists. The Exarchs are only part of the background and integral to the beliefs of the antagonist group, and whether they even exist is supposed to be ambiguous. The whole list of examples seems to basically be saying "Any godlike being who is part of the setting is a Sue because they are so much more powerful than the P Cs" even if that is the point of godlike beings, and they are not intended to be personal antagonists to any group. That is basically saying that if a setting has Satan so much as mentioned than he is a Villain Sue (or if God is mentioned than he is a Mary Sue).

Won Sab: Agreed. There's actual Word of God that the True Fae are living stories, too; killing a story even once is difficult enough. The entire mindset behind adding those examples smacks of people looking at any character that's mechanically impossible/difficult for player characters to kill as a Sue.

SenatorJ: Vecna is so powerful, his artifacts have powers of suggestion over players. How else do you explain the legends of the Head of Vecna?

Yukisensei13: Why was Aizen Sousuke from Bleach removed?? Come on people, he's a Villain Sue if there ever was one.

Anaheyla: No he isn't. Being stronger than the main character, by however much, does not make you a Villain Sue, otherwise half the villains in fiction would be one. Nor does being smarter, otherwise media darling Light Yagami and his ridiculous "EXACTLY AS PLANNED!" catchphrase would be one. Aizen is intelligent, powerful and interesting villan whose superiority to the main cast is well established. Calling him a Villain Sue because he's walking all over people he's already proven he's superior to in every way will solve nothing. May well call Jafar a Villain Sue for beating the crap out of Genie.

Amitai: That isn't a fair comparison, since Light and Buu have OTHER CHARACTERISTICS. Aizen doesn't.

Crazydom: His superiority has never been established to the point it appears to be now. He is utterly destroying high level characters like Shinji and Shunsui in his base form who people believed beforehand might at least be able to push him to Bankai. There is zero known explanation for why Aizen is as strong as he is. He's simply a God with haxed illusion moves because he says he is. And I disagree with Aizen being 'interesting'. All we get is chapter after chapter of him showing how dominant he is. There is never any suspense in his battles. We just get Kubo shoving his superiority down our throats which to me is the definition of a Villain Sue.

Anaheyla:There's zero explanation for why anyone is as strong as they are in Bleach. People get random powerups with no explanation all the time. No explanation for why Hitsugaya is as strong as he is. The only explanation for why Ichigo is as strong as he is is because of Deus Ex Machina. Singling out Aizen is retarded.

As for whether or not he's interesting, that's rather an opinion matter so meh. And he's been in two battles in the entire series. How many suspenseless battles did Majin Buu fight in before getting killed? Point of fact, how many times have I heard "BROLY IS TEH SEX!" instead of "BROLY IS A VILLAIN SUE!"

EDIT: Ah screw it, I don't care. Put him up.

Charred Knight: Aizen COULD have been an interesting character if he was given any real background, or motivations other than A God Am I. He kills his own subordinates, just to show that he doesn't even need them since he can easily kick the crap out of the entire soul society, and his basically the kind of Self-Insert I created when I was 15, except I knew that I had gone to far and toned it down by removing some power, and having him get his ass kicked. When the hell will Kubo Tite learn that. When Kubo Tite actually makes a well written chapter that was exciting, and showed a great fight, the very next chapter just revealed that once again the whole thing was an illusion just to show how awesome Aizen is. Bleach has gone from a great shonen manga to probably the worst shonen manga I have ever read because Kubo Tite has fallen in love with Aizen and just wants to make him look awesome at the expense of all his other characters.

Removed the Father example. To be fair to the original poster (who I personally disagree with but recognize their points), I'll put this here for now.

In FullmetalAlchemist, Father is the creator of the Homunculi, orchestrator of every major conflict in history and has a mastery of alchemy that no other character can ever hope to attain (which includes the ability to disable the alchemy of others). At first it seems that he has an evenly-matched rival in the form of Hohenheim, but the latter is ineffectual for most of the story before being subdued during the final battle. Father's plan is to gain ultimate power and knowledge for reasons not explained, and in spite of the efforts of the majority of the cast it goes off without a hitch, resulting in Father's power being increased even more. Oh, did I mention that his plan involved overpowering and absorbing God? Yeah, that part went off without a hitch as well.

Archived Discussion Main / VillainSue