Discussion Main / RomanticismVersusEnlightenment

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The description says that Romanticism is tied to the Dionysian and the Enlightenment is tied to the Apollonian. I'm not so sure about that. Dionysus was associated with chaos and passion, while Apollo was associated with order and reason. Tradition meanwhile is tied to Order and Progress/Change is tied to Chaos. If we combine all this, we get that Enlightenment = Apollo = Reason = Order = Progress = Chaos and Romanticism = Dionysus = Emotion = Chaos = Tradition = Order. Clearly a contradiction. We can't have something be associated with both chaos and order at the same time. I think the comparison with Apollo and Dionysus is improper - a better analogy would be Apollo = Order and Dionysus = Chaos, leaving Romanticism and Enlightenment out of it.

Has anyone noticed some of the inherent stereotypes present in writers who lean towards one side of this conflict or another? For example, the romanticist undertones that are present in a lot of cyberpunk or dystopian future works tend to have a very limited understanding of actual science and/or technology, and often the cultures that surround them. Discussion of things like social media, surveillance tech or gaming in general often comes out as Totally Radical , down to blatant misunderstandings of the people that enjoy them (ie social media users are all shallow instagram addicts and gamers are all Basement Dweller 's with no real lives).

By comparison, Enlightenment-side works have a tendency to either neglect or downplay parts of society that aren't explicitly tied to progress or technology, giving them a general disdain for the 'barbarians' of the world beyond in general. The issue of once (relatively) stable communities being fundamentally changed by social reform, or entire towns of people losing their jobs to roboticization or other technological growth is just sort of casually 'glossed over' as if it's not something worth worrying about.

I suppose it only underlines how inherently political this trope can be at times, or at least how socially dichotomous it is. Enlightenment side arguments can be stereotyped as top-down urbanites, politicians and high society crowds who don't understand how the world actually works, and Romanticist side arguments can be painted as leftover spiritualists or art snobs whining about how the aforementioned Enlightenment arguments 'think they're sooooo great!'.

As crazy as some people would think of me bringing this up, but could the Dragon Ball series apply (specifically leaning towards romanticism)? I'll let some fellow tropers look through this and offer their feedback before I add this under the Anime/Manga section. Major SPOILER WARNING about the Broly example (given that spoiler tags won't show up on the discussion page) for those who want to avoid being spoiled on that.

Dragon Ball: Given that the most of the heroes consist of various martial artists (of which the protagonist, Son Goku, spent his early life growing up in the wilderness after his adoptive grandfather's death) and in the case of Vegeta is a prince of a near extinct species who has some fervent pride for this heritage, and not to mention all sorts of magic and supernatural beings, this series is largely Pro-Romanticist by default. This isn't to say that the series is anti-Enlightenment, given that Bulma's Dragon Radar and other creations of Capsule Corp are important to helping Goku and co. with whatever needs they need, the series also displays some wariness of becoming overly reliant on technology and methodology, especially at the expense of instinct and appreciation of nature and traditions. Most (but not all) antagonists represent some of the negative aspects of Enlightenment thinking. Some examples include the following:

• The Red Ribbon employs various forms of weapons and other technology (e.g. Battle Jackets) to achieve their goal of getting the Dragon Balls to achieve Commander Red's goal, which they believe to be world domination, but actually reveals he just wants to be a few inches taller. Everyone the Red Ribbon Army throws at Goku is defeated with ease and are only able to inflict a defeat on him when they hire Mercenary Tao Pai Pai, an assassin who also has extensive martial arts expertise. Also amusing to note that one creation of the Red Ribbon Army, Android 8 (who has a resemblance to the creature from Frankenstein (which is under Literature below), developed its own free will and decided against serving his creators and instead protect people and nature from the RRA.
• King Piccolo, as a Contrasting Sequel Antagonist, is far more romanticist in outlook. In addition to restoring his youth via the Dragon Balls, he simply seeks to rule the world as a king with no other sort of ideological agenda (e.g. seeking to create a utopia, claiming the supremacy of one ethnic group over another, etc.). He also claims to be a demon (though later revealed to be of an alien race known as Namekians) and thus proudly wears his disinterest in modernity on his sleeve. He was the greatest threat that Goku and co. fought against when he first appeared because he had martial arts skills and training instead of relying on technology. Also worth noting that Akira Toriyama has stated King Piccolo is his favorite of villain from the Dragon Ball series. His son, Piccolo, by contrast eventually reveals himself as a good example of Romanticism (Rousseau Was Right) after training and caring for his ex-opponents' son.
• The Frieza Force, despite being ruled by a monarch, is highly Enlightenment based on their use of various forms of high technology, such as scouters, healing pods, and spacecraft (in the case of the last were far more advanced than anything that Earth had at the time of Raditz's introduction). While Frieza and his underlings tend to be smug when comparing themselves against the Z-fighters and Vegeta because of high opinion of their superior technology, but this ends up bring about their defeat. Numerous times, the villains end up losing because they miscalculate the ability of their opponents by their power levels alone, not accounting for skill or tactics, or the fact that the characters learn to recognize this and trick their opponents by hiding their power. The few exceptions of the Frieza Force are Vegeta and his squadmates (Nappa and Raditz) who are Romanticist (Being motivated by the pride of their race and also the few henchmen of Frieza who are after their own goals instead of being obedient cogs in the machine of Frieza's Empire). Fittingly Vegeta also survives to become a decent person as part of a long running Heel–Face Turn.
• Dr. Gero, relies on technology to create his soldiers, consisting of fully artificial androids (Androids 16 and 19), cyborgs (17, 18, and himself), and a Bio-robot (Cell) made from the genetic material of various warriors. However, Gero has long lost interest in the Red Ribbon Army's goal of world conquest and simply wants everyone to suffer in retaliation for his son's death just before the destruction of the RRA. Cell somewhat believes in Enlightenment principles though is more of a narcissistic Übermensch than anything else. Cell genuinely believes that he is perfect upon absorbing 17 and 18 and holds a tournament to trumpet how he is the greatest being in the universe via Bio-engineering and then destroy everyone on Earth after his assumed victory in his Cell Games. However, Gohan taps into his emotions, brought about by the destruction of 16, to achieve a new form, Super Saiyan 2, in order to defeat and ultimately kill Cell.
  • Androids 17 and 18 are irreverent joy seekers who couldn't care less about what authority figures (Dr. Gero included as he found out the hard way) expect of them (and arguably during this time could be considered Byronic heroes of sorts). Android 16, like Android 8 mentioned earlier, initially follows his programming, but manages to gain an appreciation of nature and thus decided to fight against Cell to prevent him from destroying the Earth and all the people and animals that inhabit it. Though in latter sagas 17 and 18 grow out of this delinquency, with the former becoming a wild life ranger who protects endangered animals from poachers and the latter becoming a wife and mother.
• Some of the Majin Buu saga's antagonists are more romanticist derived in their mindsets, thus making this another Romantic vs Romantic conflict. While Babidi and his minions have no particular philosophy, the titular Majin Buu of this story arc displays certain romanticist ideals. The first form that is shown, Fat Buu (sometimes called Innocent Buu) is like a young child that has not been raised to know right and wrong and thus is oblivious to how others are hurt by his path of destruction. Mr. Satan (AKA Hercule) manages to get him to promise to never kill again after befriending him. However, when gunmen attempt to kill Mr. Satan, Buu expels his wrathful and selfish nature into a new being, Evil Buu (of who can be considered an example of Dark Romanticism in a sense), who then absorbs the former becoming Super Buu and going on a rampage seeking to kill everyone simply because he can. However, when Super Buu is defused from Fat Buu he then turns into a being of pure animalistic instinct known as Kid Buu who is not acting under any sort of civilized notion of morality at all.
• Zamasu and Goku Black are solid examples of the worst elements of the Enlightenment. Upon seeing both the barbaric nature of some mortals, despite the gods granting sapience to them choose not to live that way, as well as how powerful some mortals have become, Zamasu decides that all mortals most be destroyed in order to make a peaceful universe where only the gods would reside free of chaos and mortal evil. While other antagonists have committed destructive acts of villainy, he is portrayed as particularly monstrous based on Zamasu and Goku Black's warped view of justice.
• The various teams that compete in the Tournament of Power during the Universe Survival Saga run the gamut between these philosophies. While the teams from Universes 4, 9, and 10 do not represent any particular ideology, the teams of Universes 2, 6, and 7 are mostly Romantic (with some individual exceptions) while those from Universes 3 and 11 are Enlightenment. Most of the Second Universe's fighters are devoted to Love and Beauty while the counter part universes of 6 and 7 embody various aspects of individualism. The fighters of the Third Universe consist of various cyborgs, robots, and a Mad Scientist. The Pride Troopers of the Eleventh hold strict views of Justice and are indifferent to emotional appeals, especially from lawbreakers, and thus only regard fighting and victory as a means to an end rather than any sort of test of skill and strength and certainly not any sort of sport to be enjoyed. Though the Third and Eleventh Universe were among the last three in the fight, they still fail to Universe 7's fighters given that they had a balance of both rugged individualism and trust between each other in order to outlast everyone else and win the battle royale.
• In Dragon Ball GT, the Shadow Dragons to some extent represent a Romantic mindset. They are created as a result of the overuse of the Dragon Balls, of which Bulma's creation of the Dragon Radar contributed to this by making them easier to find, and thus unleash a sort of Gaia's Vengeance on the human race.

Edited by JesseMB27

Academia: Romanticism or Enlightenment?

Not Anti-Intellectualism

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Some of the tropes in the first section (Team E's) are obviously direct opposites of some in the second section (Team R's).

For instance, Screw Destiny vs You Can'tFightFate.

Is there some way to create a 2-column table, or something like that? One that is as easy to edit, for everyone, as possible.

It's okay to both be enlighten and romantic all at once

Edited by lledsmar Hide / Show Replies

Which side would Yu-Gi-Oh! be on?

Could Guilty Gear count?

• In Guilty Gear, enlightenment ideas and technological science are basically deemed illegal and labelled "Black Technology" by the United Nations since it harms the environment, which is ripe with religious fundamentalism, nazism and xenophobia. This comes across as extremely ironic as magic and the Gear Project were designed for human evolution, only for them to backfire horribly when they began to be used for human greed, resulting in the Crusades, which in turn resulted in humanity regressing into a Dark Ages-like society. The only "enlightened" might be Zepp, who were originally a Totalitarian Utilitarian government before being overthrown and taken over by Gabriel and subsequently reformed into a more democratic nation.

Edited by 75.23.234.106 Hide / Show Replies

1. Fight Club is Romanticist, as befits anything based on the heavily Nietzschean-influenced work of Chuck Palahniuk.

Tyler Durden was very Romanticist, but it doesn't seem like the film itself took a side.

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Is it me, or does this article seem rather biased against Romanticism? Drawing particular attention to Romantcism = Lawful Evil and Enlightenment = Lawful Good. Shouldn't it be Romanticism = Chaotic Good and Enlightenment = True Neutral/Lawful Neutral, since the latter encourages an objective, impassionate view of the world?

Not sure if I buy the Romaticism = True Art is Angsty either, but that's probably just me.

Edited by Tolgron Hide / Show Replies

I don't see how Adam Smith, the father of Capitalism, was either a romanticist or a cynic. Capitalism is more about "thinking" while socialism is more about "feeling". Also I just don't get how he would be a cynic. Socialism says that people would be Always Chaotic Evil if left to their own devices and if the government isn't there to regulate them. Capitalism, on top of using far less appeals to emotion than socialism or communism, thinks that people can be trusted to do the right thing considerably more. Not to mention generally the right is more portrayed as orderly and the left as more chaotic. It's far, far more complicated than the portrayal it seems to imply.

Edited by doomsday524 He who has a why to live can bear almost any how -Neitzsche (I know) Hide / Show Replies

I'm not sure the xkcd quote really fits for Enlightenment - the idea that it's possible to simply (or not so simply) educate people to be good was kind of essential for the Enlightenment mentality. Technology came second. Technocracy is a much more modern idea, though admittedly one that works somewhat better with Enlightenment than with Romanticism (although even that seems arguable).

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A laconic entry proposal:

"The Enlightened prefer to think. The Romantic prefer to feel."

How does one create a laconic page?

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Terry Gilliam is all about this trope. It shows most in his critically acclaimed, but not too profitable The Adventures of Baron Munchausen where the reason-defying Baron is Romanticism incarnate, and conformist, reason-obsessed city official The Right Ordinary Horatio Jackson is Enlightenment, and the trope (also as society vs. individual, conformism vs. imagination, consensus reality vs. insanity) is inherent one way or another in all of Gilliam's movies.

Discussion pulled out of article:

• C.S. Lewis favored something of a balance and thought that each had something to say. He loved logical discourse but also loved tales of old, especially Norse Mythology. He argued against the flaws he saw in enlightenment as interpreted in England because argument is the proper tool for "policing" enlightenment. By contrast extreme romanticism cannot really be argued against and for such manifestations of extreme romanticism as appeared in his own day he supported other methods of persuasion, which were tangential to his essays. In any case while he was in some ways romantic and in some ways enlightend, he would have said that one should Take a Third Option, that it was irrational to reject either and that in any case the most important thing was God, not romanticism or enlightenment.
  • He was however suspicious of enlightenment as a movement rather then as a mindset. The idea of logical argument existed long before the 18th century, and much of his lectures were about giving Take That! s to the idea that Medieval people were irrational.
  • He did make a Take That! to the quote above, when he pointed out in The Four Loves that few people were taught philosophy from an "impulse from a vernal wood" and that it might be a type of philosophy that the writer would not approve of as after all creatures in vernal woods, kind of, you know, eat each other. Neither enlightenment nor romanticism really escaped Lewis' snarks.

... if you guys want to settle on one outlook for this, it could be modified and go back in.

Goal: Clear, Concise and Witty

I know it's kind of my fault, but this article is a giant unreadable wall o' text. If nobody objects, I'm going to do a complete overhaul over the weekend to simplify the whole thing.

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