To-do list:
- Consensus was to limit LGBT Fanbase to works that were designed with Multiple Demographic Appeal as well as works with LGBTQ+ Periphery Demographics, and exclude Queer Media from the definition. It was also decided to rename it to LGBT+ Periphery Demographic, with Peripheral LGBT+ Fanbase and LGBTQ+ Periphery Demographic being redirects.
- Rewrite the description to account for the fact that Intended Audience Reactions involving Queer Media don't count.
- Clean up on-page examples.
- Clean up wicks.
Note: This thread was proposed by The Mayor of Simpleton.
Courtesy link to the oldest available copy on the Internet Archive
, under the original name Fan Yay. Also, here's a previous TRS that gave the trope its current name.
The problem: LGBT Fanbase is an Audience Reaction about works with a large LGBT+ periphery demographic. Per the description:
However, due to what I believe to be an overly-vague name, this trope is often misused for any work that happens to have LGBT fans, rather than a work specifically resonating with the LGBT community. There are also other issues—per Tropes Needing TRS:
- LGBT Fanbase: On the page itself, examples seem to be spilt between "work has a queer following due to (accidental or otherwise) LGBT representation", and one-handed troping about hot characters, in addition to your standard ZCEs aplenty that plauge older tropes on this site. According to this ATT, there are also problems with Trope Decay where it is used for any work that has an LGBT fanbase, even if they are vastly outnumbered by the rest of the fanbase.
I started a wick check a while back to see if there was a problem. I never actually did the check though—AudioSpeaks2 did all the work, so I cannot thank them enough for getting this done.
Wick check: Link here, but here's the quick results, directly copied over (again, thanks AudioSpeaks2):
- Correct use (A work with a large LGBT Periphery Demographic): 14/50 or 28%
- Just stating that a work has LGBT fans with no mention of it being a Periphery Demographic: 16/50 or 32%
- One-handed troping (Gushing about how hot a character is for queer people): 2/50 or 4%
- Zero-Context Examples: 11/50 or 22%
- Other misuese, a combination of the misuses above, or unclear: 2/50 or 4%
- Unsortable: 5/50 or 10%
Analysis: So the one-handed troping problem didn't turn out to be as bad as expected. The ZCE and misuse problem, however, did—numerous examples failed to emphasize the periphery demographic part of the Audience Reaction, and there were several examples that indeed had no context. There were still a lot of correct examples though—which is good for the proposed solution I have.
Possible solution: I propose renaming this trope to Periphery LGBT Fanbase, Resonates With LGBT Fans, or another name that emphasizes the periphery demographic part of this trope. There are enough correct examples that such a solution IMO could work.
What does everyone else think? Any other ideas or suggestions?
Wick check:
Here we will be performing a wick check for LGBT Fanbase.Why?: This trope is supposed to be about works with a large LGBT Periphery Demographic. It gets misused for "any work with LGBT fans", and attracts one-handed troping and Zero-Context Examples.
Wicks checked: 50/50
Results:
- Correct use (A work with a large LGBT Periphery Demographic): 14/50 or 28%
- Just stating that a work has LGBT fans with no mention of it being a Periphery Demographic: 16/50 or 32%
- One-handed troping (Gushing about how hot a character is for queer people): 2/50 or 4%
- Zero-Context Examples: 11/50 or 22%
- Other misuese, a combination of the misuses above, or unclear: 2/50 or 4%
- Unsortable: 5/50 or 10%
- YMMV.Little Women: Jo has a following amongst both queer women and trans men due to her tomboyishness and ambiguous dialogue, which were intended to be Jo hating gender roles but can be interpreted as accidentally 'trans-sounding.' I'm not sure if this is large, but it's definitely a Periphery Demographic
- YMMV.Sister Act: The first movie and the Broadway musical are huge hits with the LGBT community. The Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence—a worldwide organization of drag nuns that do charity for the community—particularly revere the movie, its music, and its message, even though the group predates the film by over a decade.
- YMMV.Golden Kamuy: A lot of gay men like this manga due to brawny men of the main cast serving as its primary source of fanservice. Not really familiar with the work, but it does sound like a Periphery Demographic from the way it's worded.
- YMMV.Star Trek Voyager: Lesbians. Love. Janeway. Quite a few of Star Trek's queer fans grew up idolizing Janeway, and of course, she and Seven are a popular ship. It seems only fitting that Kate Mulgrew would wind up on Orange Is the New Black, another show with a rabid LGBT following. It helps that she actually was intended to be a lesbian before the writers chickened out. While it does state Janeway was originally intended to be a lesbian, they decided to not do that at the last minute yet the show still gained a significant queer following. So definitely a Periphery Demographic.
- YMMV.She Ra Princess Of Power: For much the same reasons as its Spear Counterpart, She-Ra has a lot of queer fans due to its Ho Yay. Adora is also popular amongst women. This entry is about the 80s show and I'm mostly familiar with the Netflix version. This era of the show was defintely not aiming at a queer audience but attracted one anyways. So this a valid example
- YMMV.Luca: The film has attracted a large gay/bisexual following, since the plot reads almost like a story between two gay kids struggling with coming out due to living in a conservative environment. This one is a Periphery Demographic as the director intended for Luca and Alberto's relationship to be about pure friendship and the themes of queerness is just applicability
- YMMV.Detentionaire: Biffy is really popular with the western bara crowd, and the amount of attractive high school boys in general helped the show become popular with gay men. This one's about a children's cartoon, so I guess this does count as Periphery Demographic
- YMMV.Honkai Impact3rd: Stemming from the above, combined with the game's story giving much attention to the relationship between the girls and the recurring themes of love, the game has quite the dedicated lesbian fanbase. It helps that a lack of contemporary male characters to ship the main cast with prevents the friction of Ship-to-Ship Combat its successor encounters.
- YMMV.The Marvelous Land Of Oz: Tip or more to the point, Ozma is popular with trans people due to the idea of the gender one was raised as being a lie and one's true self actually being another gender having extremely obvious applicability. Unless you're an FTM — then Tip being forced into being turned back into a girl again against his wishes is nightmarish.
- YMMV.Sword Art Online:
- The series has a surprisingly large fanbase in the transgender community due to Kirito's GGO avatar, in how he's a boy who looks like a convincing girl. Specifies that the trans fanbase is huge and surprising
- Yuuki has huge admiration from the LGBT community due to her being Ambiguously Gay, with the gameverse going the extra mile and outright confirming she's into girls.
- CowboyBeBopAtHisComputer.Live Action TV: The recurring sketch "Men on Film" featured a pair of Camp Gay men reviewing movies and tv shows of the day. It was a running gag that any time the show or film had a female lead, they'd say in unison, "Hated it." However, media with strong female leads are almost always a hit with gay men, and one of the shows the critics hated was The Golden Girls, which has a strong queer following to this day.
- PeripheryDemographic.Live Action TV: Teen shows with prominent gay or lesbian characters, like Pretty Little Liars or Greek, often find themselves with significant adult followings in the LGBT community. States that the following is significant and is under a Periphery Demographic
- YMMV.Janet Jackson: Like many pop divas, Janet has a huge LGBT fanbase. She also gets bonus points for being an actual LGBT rights activist, receiving various awards for her contributions both in and outside of her music. A lot of pop diva entries count as valid examples of this
- LGBTRepresentationInMedia.Webcomics: See LGBT Fanbase for works that do not have unambiguous LGBTQIA+ subject matter, but attract a significant LGBTQIA+ fandom.
- YMMV.The Moomins: The series is hugely popular among the LGBT crowd, mostly brought about by the Ho Yay between Moomintroll and Snufkin, as mentioned above. It also helps that Tove Jansson herself was bisexual and likely would've embraced the franchise's popularity with the LGBT community.
- YMMV.Story Of Seasons A Wonderful Life: The game not only allows the player to marry either gendered love interest, allowing for same-sex marriage (including a child), it also lets player opt to officially designate their character as male, female, or non-binary. Said gender identity doesn't explicitly add anything to the game, but the representation is a nice option.
- YMMV.Wonder Woman 2017:
- Like you wouldn't believe. It goes without saying that this movie has gay and bisexual women practically swooning, not just over Gal Gadot but the entire island of Themyscira. The main plot features a gorgeous superheroine who comes from a Lady Land of insanely beautiful badass women who have long since concluded that men are necessary for procreation but "not for pleasure." Do the math. It also helps that Elena Anaya, who plays Dr Poison, is openly gay in real life.
- ...LGBT fans can admire the gorgeous Gal Gadot... A Multiple Demographic Appeal entry
- YMMV.Zoey Proasheck: Unsurprisingly, Zoey has a very devoted LGBT+ fanbase due to her being lesbian, transgender and very supportive of her fans.
- Fanon.Animated Films: Merida as being either aromantic and asexual, homoromantic and asexual, or lesbian is fanon. This is because the film revolves her being a tomboyish Rebellious Princess not wanting to marry. Her "casual clothes" appearance in Wreck-it-Ralph 2 didn't help her LGBT Fanbase pinning her as gay.
- YMMV.Atypical: The show has a strong one, for the surprisingly good lesbian representation with Izzie, with some people even arguing that they should've made her the main character instead, since their skills at writing autistic characters are... less-then-stellar, especially by comparison. Not really a Periphery Demographic nor does it specify if it's large
- YMMV.Legally Blonde: Between "Whipped Into Shape," the "bend and snap," and the character of Enid, this is a really good show for lesbians. Or straight men. Or the bisexuals. Especially the bisexuals. "Gay or European" helps make it a good show for gay men as well. The way it's worded makes it sound like it just has LGBT fans and not a Periphery Demographic of LGBT fans
- Series.All American Girl: Margaret Cho in real life is openly pansexual, has been a Fag Hag since she was a teenager, and has a ginormous LGBT Fanbase as a comedian. You wouldn't learn any of this from watching the show. Even though it's loosely based on Cho's actual life, TV!Margaret and her friends are all 100% straight and the show makes no references to queer culture despite being set in San Francisco of all places. The use of LGBT Fanbase here is in relation to Cho's LGBT Fanbase. Since Cho's standup routines are about sexuality amongst other things, it's safe to say this isn't a Periphery Demographic even though the entry does state that the queer fanbase is huge.
- Creator.Ross Lynch: Has many gay fans curtesy of his status as a heartthrob
- YMMV.Ikenfell: The cast contains multiple gay, bi, and non cisgender characters, all of whom are delightful and fun, garnering quite a lot of love from gamers in the LGBT community. Jim Sterling called Ikenfell one of their favorite games of the year not just because of the gameplay, but because the game does gay and trans rep so well. From skimming the main page, I can observe that the game has a Cast Full of Gay, so it's not really a Periphery Demographic
- YMMV.Too Loud: Trans viewers praised "Slumber Party Sneak-In" for its handling of Jeffrey learning he's genderfluid through his Desirée persona. It helps that the other girls are perfectly accepting and supportive of him, having known he was Desirée the entire time.
- YMMV.Kill La Kill:
- Gamagoori and Tsumugu are rather popular with gay male fans. Their status as Mr. Fanservice certainly helps.
- Jakuzure for gay female fans. There are quite a few female fans who declare her the most attractive character in the series, for instance.
- Trivia.Woodwalkers: The series has a gay couple ( Shawod and Frankie) so it's no surprise that the series has LGBT-fans. A YMMV trope in Trivia. But disregarding that, all this entry does it state that the series has LGBT-fans and nothing about a Periphery Demographic.
- VideoGame.Pixel Cats End: The lack of a gender binary and pride items make the game very appealing to LGBT players. A YMMV example in a work page but even besides that it's just a work with LGBT fans not a Periphery Demographic
- YMMV.Girl In Red: girl in red has a massive queer fanbase, as she is a lesbian and her music often focuses on queer themes. This had led to "Do you listen to girl in red?" becoming a coded way to ask if someone is a lesbian. Not really a Periphery Demographic when her music about queer themes
- ViewerGenderConfusion.Anime And Manga: Plenty of people have mistaken Asuka from Zettai Muteki Raijin-Oh for a girl due to his effeminate appearance and teeny-tiny shorts, even on this very wiki. His name doesn't help, as it's the name of a female pilot in another, more well-known series; and that his voices in both Japanese and English versions are pretty androgynous. Not that his fanboys care.. Doesn't state anything about a Periphery Demographic
- YMMV.The Dom Reviews: Dom's garnered a significant queer following over the years due to sheer amount of respect he shows to the community. He goes out of his way to give glowing reviews to LGBT-themed novels he finds, openly calls out and gets rid of any bigotry that shows up in his comments, once checked in with the bi community because he was worried his blue-purple-pink background was appropriative, and dropped J.K. Rowling very quickly after her transphobic attitude became more evident.
- YMMV.Shantae: Considering how every main female character is extremely attractive, it was a given. And even for the guys, characters like Bolo and the Ammo Baron aren't exactly hard on the eyes. Just an entry gushing about how hot the main characters are
- UnresolvedSexualTension.Live Action TV: Jane Rizzoli and Maura Isles ooze this. Two women are very rarely the primary UST couple, and never in a police procedural (Heteronormative Crusader meets Executive Meddling), and some of us are very pleased indeed to see a Series.Bones-worthy level of UST between them. For obvious reasons. It helps that one of them is Abbie Carmichael and the other is Kate Todd. (Amusingly, fanon says Blonde Republican Sex Kitten Abbie was gay as well.) Gushing entry
- YMMV.The Prom: The plot combining both a story about accepting sexuality and campy Broadway actors has quite obviously lead to this. Lead to what? ZCE
- YMMV.Moyashimon: Kei is popular amongst trans people. ZCE. Entry doesn't explain why she is popular amongst trans people.
- YMMV.Donna Summer: She was the queen of disco, after all, despite the rumors that she was a radical Christian homophobe. Since Disco as a genre is tied to LGBT Fanbase, I'd say many artists in the genre would count as valid examples, but they would need to explain Disco's LGBT Fanbase as not everyone would know that, surprisingly enough.
- Trivia.Seawalkers: This series has a transsexual side character named Johnny, so this isn't surprising. YMMV example in a Trivia page but also a ZCE
- YMMV.Meet Me In St Louis: A Judy Garland-headlined musical directed by a famous LGBT filmmaker, with a song heavily associated with the community. And of course all the Costume Porn.
- YMMV.Vampire The Masquerade: The game was inclusive and included many gay, bisexual, or lesbian characters at a time when they were still uncommon in RPGs. Entry doesn't state about any a queer Periphery Demographic, it just states "It's inclusive". That's it
- YMMV.Ralph Breaks The Internet: Both ZCEs
- Merida and Mulan were already queer icons, but their portrayals in the film made them even more popular.
- Shank has her fans amongst LGBT people.
- YMMV.Dragon Quest The Adventure Of Dai:
- YMMV.Given: In no small part thanks to having a much more rounded take on the relationship between the main characters than most works in the Yaoi Genre. Not enough context
- YMMV.Seraph Of The End: Unsurprising given the amount of Ho Yay the series contains. Not enough context given
- YMMV.Kikis Delivery Service:
- Osono's husband Fukuo has gotten a good amount of bara fanworks. Doesn't explain why he has a lot Bara fanworks
- The film in general is popular with lesbians, but Ursula seems to be the most well-loved character among them, due to her caring, independent, and free-spirited nature. Doesn't elaborate why the film is popular with lesbians and Ursula's popularity amongst them also isn't given enough explanation besides maybe her free-spirited nature.
- YMMV.Alita Battle Angel: The film has a significant trans women audience as Alita is exploring a new body and feeling euphoria with it, against the gatekeeping of her identity. While it does state that the film's audience of trans women is significance, the way it's phrased feels more appropriate as a Rainbow Lens entry.
- The Moblins and its fanbase, despite the creatures being minions of the Big Bad and their intentionally being repulsive in appearance. Sounds like people just gushing over the Moblins' design and not giving enough context as to why. So it's a combination of one-handed troping and ZCE
- ShipsThatPassInTheNight.Video Games: Dorothea and Mercedes have somewhat of a following, despite having no Support conversations; this one seems predicated on the LGBT Fanbase and both of these girls being a Gay Option.
- EnsembleDarkHorse.The Mandalorian: Elia Kane, Moff Gideon's lieutenant for being the first live-action female Imperialnote , as well as being played by an attractive LGBT actress, which has made her immensely popular in the LGBT Fanbase. Her popularity with fans resulted in her returning in the third season episode "The Convert", where she is integral to the plot.
- Shipping Goggles: Caution should be used not to confuse every case of LGBT Fanbase Gaydar as Shipping Goggles — if fans believe a character is gay, it is not necessarily because fans want to ship them.
- Recap.Eurovision Song Contest: This is also the first edition to be aired live in the United States via LOGO (home of RuPaul's Drag Race, because obviously), with the connection further reinforced by a Justin Timberlake interval at the grand final.
- YMMV.The Craft: With Ginger Snaps and Jennifer's Body, due to their similar story and character beats - particularly with the protagonists and antagonists suggestive relationships - as well as having an LGBT Fanbase.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 10th 2024 at 12:17:16 PM
, reformatting the "when it was unintentional" list in prose and merging it with most of the first paragraph to create a new second paragraph. Below that, a new line was added: "Whatever the case, this trope is for when a work appeals to the gay community as well as the mainstream world." This was right around the time the thread that would rename the page was started (and said thread wanted to improve the description as well), making me think the change was a result of it, but the current history doesn't preserve any Fan Yay-era history so I can't determine the exact timing or reasoning.
That third paragraph, preserved in the present description, made me think that the opening line in the current description was meant to indicate that a work shouldn't be specifically oriented towards gays as opposed to claiming it has to not be intentionally oriented towards gays. In other words, it doesn't have to be created without gay people in mind at all, it just doesn't have to be all about gayness. (So Steven Universe would qualify despite having an LGBT creator and obviously queer-coded characters, but RENT would not.)
The line the OP cites was edited from the previous opening sentence by ~Desert Dragon without an edit reason in 2021, just under three years ago. Given the above I suspect it was well-intentioned, but the phrasing seems to have misled Mayor of Simpleton into thinking the trope was narrower than it actually is to the point of actually requiring the LGBT fanbase to be a Periphery Demographic, especially when combined with the 2013 edits burying the line "not all Fan Yay is unintentional", previously a sentence that was given its own paragraph, into the middle of a lengthy second paragraph.
On the other hand, the old name was a snowclone of Ho Yay, which was/is, at least originally, all about unintentional homoerotic subtext, so it's easy to conclude that this page might have been specifically about an LGBT fanbase not originally targeted by the creators. On top of that, as tropes like Girl on Girl Is Hot (and its counterpart Guy on Guy Is Hot) suggest, the mere inclusion of intentional homoerotic subtext doesn't necessarily mean the work is intentionally trying to target the LGBT community, and the confusingly worded original description doesn't help with trying to figure out which was intended; the fact that Mayor of Simpleton took the effort to link an Internet Archive copy that included the line "maybe it's intentional Fanservice" and a list of things that could be the case "when Fan Yay was unintentional", and still decided the fanbase has to be a Periphery Demographic, is telling (assuming he actually bothered to read the archive in question, and assuming Gaston didn't edit the link he originally supplied). Some discussion in 2010 that boiled it down to "Something that isn't targeted to the GLBT [sic] community becomes beloved by the GLBT community", which became the laconic for a time and spurred some cleanup to the description, also wouldn't have dissuaded him. (It's also worth noting that the 2012 TRS thread suggests that changes to Ho Yay helped create some of the problems surrounding Fan Yay's definition.)
It's worth noting that in 2009, it was close to unheard of for LGBT-friendly content to be intentionally included in works for a mainstream audience or for gay relationships to be depicted in mainstream works for reasons other than fanservice or appealing to existing fanbases. You might have the occasional Northstar by straight creators in niche media, and the occasional Easter egg snuck in by gay creators such as the Sim Copter incident (Ctrl-F EasterEgg.Video Games for SimCopter for more info), and things were already starting to change at that point, but by the end of the year only three US states (all in New England) had approved gay marriage (not including California which had already passed Proposition 8 rescinding their approval), and the spectre of Moral Guardians screaming bloody murder if they detected a hint of gayness, intentional or no, still hung over creators' and executives' heads. So it's possible that the thinking at the time the page was created was, you have gay works and straight works, and never the twain shall meet. The idea that a mainstream work might still realistically and respectfully depict the LGBT experience must have seemed like a pipe dream; even the page itself seemed to suggest that the presence of Yaoi Fangirls or Slash Fic qualified as an LGBT fanbase (helping to explain some of the one-handed troping), which doesn't seem to align with what people expect from LGBT fans or what the LGBT community expects out of works today. (This obviously isn't the case for Internet works or other niche media, but the most niche medium present on the oldest copy of the page is Video Games, unless you consider the X-Men example to be Comic Book.)
That being said, some of the Category 2 entries on the usage check might actually be valid no matter what. This entry from YMMV.Atypical:
On the other hand, because she is a canon LGBT character you could argue that means the show is intentionally trying to target LGBT audiences; it's just a matter of whether she's there just to have an LGBT character and relationship or out of a conscious desire to portray a realistic lesbian relationship (or whether the gayness was even originally intended). That has implications for whether or how to separate the two categories of potentially-correct usage.
Also, All-American Girl (based on the entry in the check) has all straight characters, without an ounce of even unintentional homoerotic subtext, but nonetheless has an LGBT Fanbase that AudioSpeaks2 didn't consider a Periphery Demographic because its lead actress is pansexual in real life. Frankly the phrasing of the entry suggests to me that the person who wrote it considered Periphery Demographic a requirement they needed to get across. That a show having an LGBT Fanbase is inevitable before one word is written does not make it intentional.
- One is a work that doesn't intend to include LGBT themes or target an LGBT audience in any way, but still picks up a sizable LGBT fanbase.
- The other is a work targeted for mainstream audiences that consciously includes LGBT themes, beyond pure Fanservice or tokenism, or otherwise throws some bones to the LGBT community, without being prompted to do so by the existing presence of an LGBT fanbase (ie, no "making Xenaelle canon" cases). This might be a Trivia entry or even a full-fledged trope (it would probably be Trivia if it was decided that it needed Word of God confirmation of either/both of the themes and the mainstream appeal); the strongest argument for including a Periphery Demographic component in the page as it stands is that "work that intentionally targets LGBT audiences has LGBT fans" is sort of chairs-y as audience reactions go, no matter how subtle or secondary the targeting is.
On the other hand, there's also a fine line between having gay characters and relationships just to have them, to include them out of a crass desire for the LGBT community's money, or as a result of a genuine creative decision. The first two may technically count as intentionally including LGBT themes and even targeting the LGBT community, but it's still noteworthy that they actually succeed. That's an argument for at least keeping the second page YMMV - "LGBT-approved intentional representation" - if not part of the same page as the first group.
It's also worth noting that Popular with Furries, which could be considered analogous, is explicitly a subtrope of Periphery Demographic, though there's still a clear divide between "furry works" and "works for everyone else". On the flip side, the Queer Media index disqualifies "works with queer main characters or large amounts of queer supporting characters but whose stories are not about being queer", as well as those that do have stories about being queer but as "a subplot rather than a main plot", effectively leaving out the middle-ground talked about above and suggesting it needs another home, whether this page or a new one.
(Also, even if the page is kept as I describe in the first few paragraphs, it could use a rename to keep people from just referring to a character's or show's LGBT Fanbase in sentences, which appears a lot in the usage check, implies the page is about the fanbase itself more than the phenomenon that gives rise to it, and may foster the idea that the page is about any LGBT fanbase at all regardless of how much the work targets them. This would also help with the use of the page on creator pages, which is probably misuse no matter what.)
Wow, I wasn't sure if I was going to participate in the thread at all when I opened it, and instead I spent hours working on a post I ended up having to put in three folders (although the main reason it's three folders instead of one is because I go on a slight tangent off my main point I wasn't sure where to put but which still factors into my conclusion), but there you go.
Edited by MorganWick on Jan 15th 2024 at 3:28:51 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I missed a lot of discussion because I wasn't reading TRS at the time, but allowing works with Multiple Demographic Appeal might work in addition to allowing Periphery Demographics. I do feel that either would be more worth noting than Queer Media being successful with its target audience, because every work has an Intended Audience Reaction of being successful with its target audience, regardless of the target demographic.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 15th 2024 at 5:41:52 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Like you mention, a big part of the problem is that the page was created under the assumption that "mainstream" and "queer" culture were clearly divided. Which was true at the time, but now we have works with LGBT main charcters that are targeted at a mainstream mass audience, so the divide between what's mainstream and what's specifically targeted to LGBT people is harder to define.
Chew.
This might sound weird, but I think this trope might work better as Trivia than YMMV? YMMV tropes are for subjective tropes, and a lot of these works have LGBT fanbases that do objectively exist, even if not every fan is LGBT. Isn't meta stuff like that usually Trivia?
Koichi really steals? No dignity.
the Retromancer
Audience-related meta and other stuff about reception or fandoms goes to YMMV though.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Yeah, this is an Audience Reaction, so it's supposed to be YMMV. Reception and other audience-related meta information being classified as Audience Reactions is why we moved Fan Nickname from Trivia to YMMV a year or two ago.
Periphery Demographic (which LGBT Fanbase overlaps with at least to an extent) is YMMV for this reason.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jan 20th 2024 at 6:20:15 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Welp. This thread's been dead for like a month with no clear consensus on what to do.
I'd like to apologize for all this.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
With that in mind, clocking.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Maintenance?
I think we should just define the item as a large LGBT Periphery Demographic (the most common suggestion thus far) and possibly rename for clarity. The part of the description about LGBT-oriented works is covered by Queer Media.
Edited by LaundryPizza03 on Feb 20th 2024 at 1:46:04 PM
I'm back!
I support the idea of having it re-defined as an LGBT Periphery Demographic, since we already have Queer Media and LGBT Representation in Media for media that is clearly targeted for an LGBT audience.
One-Track Mind (he/him)
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
I agree.
Very Spooky
I'm still a bit reluctant towards making about Periphery Demographics specifically. A LGBT-focused work attracting a LGBT fanbase isn't notable, of course, but there's still many ambiguous examples. This post already details the problem well, but the issue nowadays is that so much media includes LGBT characters and topics to attract such demographics that it becomes difficult to say if an LGBT Fanbase is "periphery" or not.
This occurs even with older works—I was going to bring up The Golden Girls as a classic example of an LGBT Periphery Demographic, only to recall that it has episodes focusing on AIDS and coming out, among other topics. Yet, it'd be wrong to act as if its LGBT Fanbase is not a Periphery Demographic. How do we draw the line without being overly rigid or restrictive?
back lol
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Hooked a crowner regarding whether to allow both Multiple Demographic Appeal and Periphery Demographics or just the latter, since it seems that the main concern is that allowing Queer Media is making this too broad.
Edit: Since the OP mentioned possibly renaming, whether to do that can be voted on after the scope is sorted out.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Feb 23rd 2024 at 12:22:59 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of limiting LGBT Fanbase to works that were designed with Multiple Demographic Appeal as well as works with LGBTQ+ Periphery Demographics, and excluding Queer Media. Since the possibility of renaming was discussed, I'll hook a crowner for whether to do that.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
🍊orange fursona🧡
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of renaming.
What are our options?
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
- LGBT Periphery Fanbase
- LGBT Periphery Demographic
- Queer Periphery Fanbase
- Queer Periphery Demographic
- Peripheral LGBT Fanbase
- Peripheral Queer Fanbase
LGBT was the old name, but not sure if it's more useful these days to go for LGBTQ or LGBT Plus, or the umbrella Queer term.
Likewise it's up to others whether we should go with the Periphery or Peripheral spelling. Periphery would reference its relationship to Periphery Demographic, but Peripheral might be more grammatically fitting.
Edited by AlleyOop on Mar 3rd 2024 at 12:08:22 PM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Hooked a crowner for which name to use. It ended up being long due to a combination of different wording (whether to use "demographic" or "fanbase" and/or whether to use "periphery" or "peripheral", as well as well as which abbreviation/term to use).
Sorry for the wait; I was sick for a few days after I called the previous crowner, and I held off on making the crowner until I got back on my feet due to the crowner's length.
Edit: Oh, right, and let me know if I missed any potential options and/or accidentally duplicated options; I think I fixed the mistakes I made when putting it together, but they were made because the crowner got long and oversights were made.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Mar 7th 2024 at 3:17:06 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Very Spooky
I like the suggestion of Queeriphery Fanbase (or, to keep it consistent, Queeriphery Demographic) in ; I actually had the exact same pun in mind. I find anything among the lines of LGBT+ Periphery Demographic to be seriously overlong and clunky.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Added those two.
Officially intimidated
Posting this comment to make public that I voted in favor of LGBT+ Periphery Demographic. I didn't upvote or downvote any of the other options.
135 - 161 - 273 - 191 - 188 - 230 - 300
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Calling in favor of LGBT+ Periphery Demographic, with Peripheral LGBT+ Fanbase and LGBTQ+ Periphery Demographic being redirects. I'll hold off on the move for now in case we need some rewrites; I think we mainly need to adjust the description to account for Intended Audience Reactions for Queer Media not counting.
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
One-Track Mind (he/him)
Bump. Does the page still need a rewrite?
This is Idol Tap. (My Troper Wall)
Crown Description:
It was decided to limit LGBT Fanbase to works that were designed with Multiple Demographic Appeal as well as works with LGBTQ+ Periphery Demographics, and exclude Queer Media from the definition. It was also decided to rename LGBT Fanbase. What should the new name be?
What about works that were designed for Multiple Demographic Appeal, with queer audiences intentionally included in that? I'm thinking of Pathfinder in particular here, which has a lot of queer rep in canon characters but without being overt Queer Media.