YMMV / The Punisher (2017)

• Alternative Character Interpretation: Billy Russo's ultimate fate: Was Frank coldly executing him in rejection of his attempt to sentimentalize their relationship, or giving him a quick death after he'd suffered enough?
  • Also for Russo ever since he is revealed to be a villain in Season 1. While he does try to remain on Rawlins' side, he never seems particularly fond of working with him and only does so because of his job and the cushy lifestyle he now has. In Season 2, despite the rather nasty things Russo has done, the show tries to give him a somewhat sympathetic depiction of him. Namely when Dr. Dumont tells Billy to kill those three women and make it look like Frank did it accidentally, Russo is very quick to say he does not like that at all. Since the show tries to maintain a sense of sympathy for Russo despite his actions, it makes him look like a tool who will horrible things even when he thinks they're wrong when he is ordered to. (Now whether it's an unintentional Badass Decay or an intentional deconstruction of I Did What I Had to Do is a different subject) In other words when it comes to folks he works with he would only try to stop them if they are under him such as when he gets one of his soldiers to stop sexually harassing a waitress. These moments suggest that Russo could've been a genuinely good guy if he could just learn how to stand up for himself.
  • Frank gets this as well, particularly since in this series Frank lost his family due to Russo, but he was ordered to by Rawlins. It's shown that back in Frank's Marine days when he and Russo worked together they were both involved in Rawlins' devious schemes in which Frank did kill innocent people for Rawlins' schemes. But when Frank tried to be a Defector from Decadence to get away from Rawlins' schemes then Rawlins had Frank's family killed as punishment for not complying (and Rawlins got Russo involved for extra pain). So while Frank is well known for slaughtering thugs who would attack and kill the innocent who were just following orders, this continuity shows that Frank was once a case of this himself, and suggests that becoming the Punisher is Frank's way of making amends for his past sins, since trying to get away from his crooked former CO is what got his family killed.
• Base-Breaking Character: Karen Page continues to be one. To supporters, she provides a vantage point of someone who's sympathetic to Frank, and a great improvement over her contributions to The Defenders (here, she gets to interact with Madani and with Russo, rather than be isolated to only interacting with Frank; in The Defenders, her interactions were limited to scenes with Matt and Foggy outside of a single interaction with Trish). To detractors, she's simply a plot device put in to advance Frank's storyline and pander to people who ship Karen and Frank together. There are also those in the middle who like Karen, but feel that she was out of place in The Punisher.
• Cant Unhear It: Jon Bernthal is arguably the definitive take on the Punisher.
• Catharsis Factor:
  • This entire show. If you love to see irredeemable scumbags getting tortured, maimed and murdered in all kinds one sick mind could imagine, this show is what you were looking for. By the end, you're probably like Billy Russo:
    Billy Russo: Goddamn, Frankie. I love watching you work.
  • On a meta level, Curtis taking some big licks but ultimately surviving the whole series is a huge weight lifted after almost every MCU TV series before this one killed off a major black character: Agent Tripp, Ben Urich, Oscar Clemons, and Pop.
• Complete Monster:
  • Season 1: William J. "Bill" Rawlins III, aka Agent Orange, is a sadistic CIA agent who was the mastermind of Operation Cerberus in Afghanistan, sending special forces to torture and kill targets while apathetic to any lives lost through incompetent planning. In reality, Rawlins used it to his own benefit, and when an honest Afghan officer named Zubair learned the truth, Rawlins framed, abducted, tortured, and murdered him while continuing to enrich himself via heroin smuggling. Upon receiving accolades and a potential promotion to Deputy CIA Director, Rawlins sought to close loose ends by having the remaining Cerberus squad members murdered, and is responsible for orchestrating the mass shootout between several underworld gangs that killed Frank Castle's family. When he learns that David "Micro" Lieberman, who knew of Zubair's murder, had faked his death, Rawlins kidnaps and tries to murder Micro's wife and children along with him. Upon capturing Castle, Rawlins, his career in tatters, attempts to brutally torture him to death, ranting that Castle, and even Rawlins's own subordinate, Russo, are just "grunts" who exist to serve men like him. A sadist with a god complex, Rawlins stops at nothing to always come out on top and destroy those he can.
  • "Scar Tissue": Arthur Walsh was the caretaker at the Ray of Hope children's home decades ago, where he took advantage of his position to sexually abuse the boys under his care. When the young Billy Russo resisted, Walsh broke his arm. Walsh's actions went on for years before one of his victims reported him, but when an amnesiac Billy visits him decades later, Walsh only says it was unfair that he lost his pension and went to prison, mocking Billy's dead mother and both his mental and physical scars, accepting no responsibility for his actions or how his abuse helped turn Billy into a killer. Though a retired man by the start of the series and only appearing in a single episode, Walsh stands out as a frighteningly realistic child molester in the MCU.
• Continuity Lockout: Compared to other shows, this show requires you to have watched the Punisher parts of Daredevil season 2 to understand what's going on here.
• Critical Dissonance:
  • Critically the show is the second-worst rated of the Marvel Netflix shows on Rotten Tomatoes only ahead of Iron Fist, just barely being getting a "Fresh" certification at 62% (though it has now risen to 68%), with professional critics having a real polarized reaction, with the detractors' major issues being the show's pacing and how it tackles issues like the gun control debate. Casual fans have been far more forgiving with their ratings going into 93% at its peak (settling at 88%), calling it one of the best Marvel series since the first season of Daredevil.
  • In general, the second season was not as well received as the first season, though the disparity remains. The season received a 50% "Rotten" by critics but maintained a relatively high 85% "Fresh" rating from audiences. As of 2024, the disparity has evened out somewhat, with the critics rating rising to 62% and audience scores lowering to 68%
• Crosses the Line Twice: Frank having killed more than the 37 people he was convicted of killing is horrifying. Frank saying it to David like it's a point of pride is hilarious.
• Ensemble Dark Horse:
  • Beth is this after her introductory episode, showing us a glimpse of what Frank's life would be like if he chose to stop punishing.
  • Ringo. He's the bouncer for Beth's club who assists Frank in the bar brawl, tanking a lot of damage and even snapping a mercenary's neck after getting stabbed several times. He needed a lot of bullets to be put down for good. Whenever he's brought up in the forums, people pay respect.
• Evil Is Cool: Billy Russo. Despite being an unrepentant asshole, he does have some genuine Affably Evil moments in seasons 1 and 2. Plus, it's obvious that Ben Barnes had a lot of fun with the role. Fans easily consider him more entertaining than Agent Orange.
• Fandom Rivalry: The show was hit with a very specific part of the MCU/DCEU rivalry when the release date was announced as November 17, the exact same day as Justice League (2017)^note it's worth noting that Justice League also had to compete with another MCU property that had already been in theaters, and more analysts believe that League opening so close to Ragnarok hurt League more than the release of The Punisher did. Given how long it took to reveal the date, as well as Netflix's ability to release their original content any time they want, many DCEU fans accused it of being a deliberate attempt to interfere with Justice League's opening weekend box office. The film ended up with the lowest opening weekend of any in the franchise to date, not even cracking $100 million.
• Fanfic Fuel: The cancellation of the Netflix series means that we won't get to see Frank meet the Defenders who aren't Daredevil.
• Harsher in Hindsight:
  • Ned Leeds in Spider-Man: Homecoming was completely hyped about being "the guy in the chair". Then this show comes along and David deconstructs it to the ground.
  • Turk's appearance in Season 2 ends with him and Frank saying they hope they never see each other again. By the time the season was released, the Netflix MCU shows were dying on the vine with Jessica Jones being the only other one still around, and raising severe doubts about whether the show would get a third season.
  • Lewis Wilson's deterioration into Right-Wing Militia Fanatic and Western Terrorists is much harder to watch after the terrorist attack on Al Noor Mosque, Christchurch, New Zealand, in March 2019.
• Hilarious in Hindsight:
  • The showrunners said the reason for Claire Temple's absence is because she would never willingly help someone like Frank. Turns out, Rosario Dawson would have eagerly been in the series, purely to complete the set.
  • Jon Bernthal and Ebon Moss-Bachrach would later co-star in The Bear as another incredibly close pair of friends. For added symmetry, they even swapped haircuts, with Mikey Berzatto (Bernthal) sporting long hair and Richie Jerimovich (Bachrach) sporting a Punisher-esque buzzcut.
• Ho Yay: The relationship between Frank and Micro is just full of it, starting from how they settle into arguing Like an Old Married Couple one episode after they start working together. To mention some other highlights, after they get drunk together Micro decides to show Frank how he is "hung like a moose", and Micro calling Frank a "beautiful, scary man" when he manages to stay conscious at death's door.
• Jerkass Woobie:
  • Frank Castle himself. The man is sullen, moody, a brutal vigilante, and certainly not a nice guy, but after everything he went through in the war, one certainly feels sorry for him.
  • Zach. Every appearance he makes has him being an asshole to his mom, his sister, and Frank. But when Frank threatens him with a knife found in Zach's backpack, Zach tearfully tells him to go through with it, and for the first time we're reminded that his behavior is an accurate portrayal for when a boy loses someone he cares for, and not knowing what to do with all the anger and pain he feels from such a loss.
• Jerks Are Worse Than Villains: The main villains of the first season are members of the Government Conspiracy that killed Frank's family, but none of them are as hated as O'Connor, the Angry White Man who never killed or even physically harmed anyone, and who is largely responsible for driving Lewis Wilson to go on a murder spree, starting with O'Connor himself.
• Memetic Badass: Why didn't Frank Castle show up in Avengers: Endgame? Because it would have been a very short battle.
• Memetic Mutation:
  • When it started to take too long for Netflix to announce the show's premiere date, aside from the vague "late 2017" promise, theories started coming out, claiming either that the show would be dropped overnight, or the day before either Veteran's Day, or the USMC birthday. This died after such theories were Jossed and it was released on November 17th, several days after both occasions.
  • Frank's horrified reaction to his fever dream in "The Judas Goat" has been turned into a reaction meme.
    Frank: No no no no no no no no wait wait wait wait WAIT WAIT WAIT WAI—
• Moral Event Horizon: See here.
• Narm:
  • The show's take on Jigsaw is just putting a few light scars on Ben Barnes, bringing up memories of Gerard Butler in The Phantom of the Opera (2004), especially when compared to Dominic West's truly hideous makeup in Punisher: War Zone. It's exacerbated by how attention is drawn to how "hideously disfigured" Russo looks despite him looking better than many people in real life even with the scars.
  • The Special Effects Failure when Krista Dumont is thrown from a window looks very bad. The entire fight sequence before counts as well because it paints Madani as a loser who can't beat a therapist in hand to hand combat.
  • By the third time Frank has the same nightmare of his wife suddenly being shot as he screams "NO!", this once-horrific scene has become almost comical.
• Narm Charm:
  • Frank's sledge-fu on the beat of "Hell Broke Luce" kind of kills an otherwise dark scene but most viewers enjoyed the execution of it regardless.
  • The hotel battle against Pilgrim is like something out of a Buster Keaton film with how they keep missing actually seeing each other, but this does nothing to dispel the danger of the situation.
• Nausea Fuel:
  • Frank vomiting blood in slow motion in the Flash Back to the ambush that caused his PTSD.
  • In season 2, we are shown Pilgrim, a couple of times, mending his wounds and injuries. Needless to say, it is disgusting to say the least. One moment has him taking out two teeth that had been embedded in his skull after a fight with former associates.
• One-Scene Wonder: Quite a few people took a liking to the female hacker Russo hires to break into Micro's system, as a snarky Punch-Clock Villain who some are hoping may get a larger role in Season 2.
• Spiritual Successor: As a techno-thriller about a torture-happy ex-special forces agent gone rogue, it's very much in the 24 mold. They even tapped 24 semi-regular Paul Schulze to play yet another G-Man.
• Spoiled by the Format: In Season 2, the close captioning in the episode "Fight or Flight" gives away the fact that Rachel's real name is Amy a couple of episodes ahead of the In-Universe reveal.
• Suspiciously Similar Song:
  • The intro theme is very similar to "God's Gonna Cut You Down" by Johnny Cash.
  • Part of the opening credits theme borrows the chorus melody from Tom Waits' "Way Down in the Hole".
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Character:
  • Although Karen Page was marketed as one of the show's leads, she is essentially a glorified guest star whose only role in the story is as a plot device to advance Frank's plot, with practically none of the autonomy she has in Daredevil. Her only contribution to the overreaching A-plot is to give Frank some information that allows him to identify Micro. She later is brought back in when Lewis threatens her following his bombing spree, but it's primarily so that Frank has a reason to get involved in wrapping up Lewis's B-plot. She isn't even so much as mentioned outside of the episodes she appears in, and she quietly disappears from the story after Frank saves her from Lewis at the hotel. It's understandable why Karen didn't have more presence,^note for instance, A) Daredevil (2015) is her home show, B) The Punisher was being filmed concurrently with The Defenders, and Deborah Ann Woll had to divide her time between the two shows, C) any additional time devoted to Karen would have stolen screentime from the show’s other, newer characters, and D) she's got no connections to Frank's past but the execution of the subplot she was given has led to some people making arguments that Karen's presence on the show (like her part in the conclusion of the Lewis subplot) were put in to cater to the Kastle shippers. It didn't help that she had more prominence in the marketing than any of the other supporting cast (much of the marketing was focused on Frank, on Karen, and occasionally on David, with nary a mention of Madani or Russo^note The other cast admittedly did get more presence in the marketing in the final two weeks leading up to the show's release, once Deborah Ann Woll left the press circuit to begin shooting the third season of Daredevil).
  • Beth & her son who were introduced early in Season 2 were also considered to be a substantial case of this. While Beth became an Ensemble Dark Horse (see entry above) since Frank had a very good thing going with Beth & her son. But as soon as John the Preacher's thugs destroyed the bar and got Beth in the hospital. The scene where John the Preacher manages to subtly force Beth to very reluctantly give him a name while she is resting in the hospital was the last time we saw her in the show. While it was nice that Beth & her son were not killed off but they were basically forgotten about when Frank was busy dealing with the Preacher & his thugs.
• They Wasted a Perfectly Good Plot: In Season 2, it almost seems natural that Frank's separate conflicts with Pilgrim and Billy would eventually run into each other sooner or later, either from Pilgrim deciding to recruit Russo to better understand his enemy or Frank teaming up with Pilgrim or Billy to take the other party down. However, neither plot thread intertwines and remain unconnected to each other throughout the season, almost as if two separate seasons were squished together.
• Visual Effects of Awesome: The visual effects here are considered very impressive. For example, when Curtis and David are operating on Frank to get the arrowhead out of him, Jason R. Moore was actually operating on a very convincing looking life size mold of Jon Bernthal's torso and shoulder. Curtis is also meant to be an amputee who normally wears a prosthetic, but the show took the opportunity to digitally remove the leg in a few scenes that were convincing enough that some viewers wondered if the actor himself wasn't an amputee.
• What the Hell, Costuming Department?: Billy Russo’s scars are severely downplayed from the comics, which is strange considering that the severity of his scars are a major part of his motivation, both on page and screen.
• The Woobie:
  • Micro is forced to watch his family fall apart, and later in danger, from a distance, unable to contact them as the conspiracy would kill them.
  • Sarah, struggling to move on from such a loss especially since her son's pain turns into aggression.
  • Karen Page is still in pain over losing Matt in The Defenders (2017) and is even cut off from Foggy.
  • Lewis' father, forced to watch his son's Sanity Slippage and his constant rejections of any sort of help, continuing to try and reach out to him as best he can, and eventually losing him after he goes postal, now doomed to live the rest of his life with the stigma of what his son did.
  • David Schultz, who was forced to hide his homosexuality by his alt-right parents, and had nothing to do with their various evil schemes. He's devastated when they don't even try to deny them.

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