Headscratchers / The Elder Scrolls V Skyrim 4

• The Main Quest, Dragons and being Dovahkiin
• Major questlines: Companions, College of Winterhold, Thieves' Guild, Civil War
• Other side quests
• The Aedra, Daedra, creatures and people encountered
• The Thu'um and Magic (you are here)
• The DLCs: Dawnguard, Hearthfire and Dragonborn
• Lore and History of the Elder Scrolls
• The meta: questions about gameplay mechanics

Paralysis and magical schools

• Why were Paralysis spells moved from the magic school of Illusion to the school of Alteration? They were Illusion spells in both Morrowind and Oblivion, and the old assignment made more sense. It's even contradicted by in-universe books.
  • Probably because they didn't fit with Illusion's theme of only changing your perception of reality.
    • And? Paralysis alters your perception of control over your body.
    • Paralysis spells don't dupe you into thinking you can't move. They render you incapable of movement, in the same sense that the Stoneskin and other such spells don't just trick your opponent into thinking that your skin has become armored.
    • Just like how fireball makes people think they are on fire by the time honored method of actually setting them on fire, Paralysis makes them think they can't move beacuse they actually can't move.
    • According to one of the books the OP references with "contradicted by in-universe books", the ideas that, to quote Incident in Necrom, "Nothing changed in the vampire's fom, except its ability to move". Of course, technically the same could be said of Water Breathing... except paralysis is easier to explain why it would be in Illusion: if you think you can't move, you might not be able to move, whereas thinking that you can breathe water is less liable to make you actually capable of breathing water.
    • Actually, one of the in-universe books contradicts this, saying that believing you can breathe water actually makes the spell more powerful.
    • What on earth implies that paralysis just makes them think they cant move? All that book is saying is that they don't turn to stone or get frozen.
    • Nothing, since there is no explanation for why it works, beyond 'inhibits the ability to move'. It is, however, a possible explanation for how it works, and therefore why it would be in Illusion as the previous games and some books still in Skyrim has, whereas it would not work for Water Breathing.
  • Simple - in the 200 years between Oblivion and Skyrim, spells have changed, so instead of stopping your conscious mind from controlling your body, paralysis now physically grips you in place. This is better in combat because even if your mind cannot control you, flinch reflexes still can.
    • To quote from "The Black Arts On Trial".
    "The 'Schools' of magicka are, as we know, artificial constructs, originally formulated by Vanus Galerion to divide and thereby simplify study. They have changed many times throughout the years, but at their heart, every Master knows, they are all linked together."
  • Another possibility is that the exact nature of the spell developed differently in Skyrim. Wheras other regions developed a trick of the mind that essentially severs control of the body, Skyrim's mages may have simply created a version that physically locks the body from moving (closer to a petrification or binding technique). Alternatively, it's as simple as one fact. Skyrim's mages are NOT of the Arcane University/Mages Guild. They're of the College of Winterhold, which may see the classification of certain magicks differently.
  • I was going to say, yeah, originally maybe it was a spell which affected the brain's ability to control movement; that would make it more efficient. Then I wondered why they would make it more difficult using (probably) more magic to physically immobilize the foe, which, of course, gives the same answer for the soul gem issue lower down. Finally, I further questioned this because if the spell paralyzed through the mind it would likely be that much harder to cast a spell (they originate from the mind right?). If they're cast strictly through specific physical movements, well then.

Why don't more Nords go to train with the Greybeards?

• Shouts seem like a pretty useful power to have.
  • High Hrothgar is way the hell on top of the highest mountain in the world and it takes years and years to learn just one Shout living an extremely monastic, meditative life with few distractions (poke around the Greybeards' living quarters; there's not much there. Beds, books and food, that's about it). In addition, they're held very sacred and perhaps even a little feared. The Dovahkiin's a special case, and Ulfric had a very specific motive. It's a big expenditure of effort for a very small gain outside of game terms.
    • Ulfric had no 'specific motive' - he was a boy when he was taken to High Hrothgar.
    • Among the restrictions of being a Greybeard, it seems you must leave behind your family and, if you wish to study more than just one harmless word, make a vow of silence. Talk to any greybeard other than Arngir, they will utter the word "dovahkiin" in a hushed voice, but even the smallest of squeaks out of one of them causes the entire temple to shake. Imagine spending years of your life learning the craft, only to be told you can never leave nor speak another word in your life lest you want to destroy the world you originally came up here to protect when you accidentally mutter a curse because you stubbed your toe. Arngir is implied to have received even more training in the arts, so that he may control his voice so that the Greybeards would have at least some form of a liaison with the outside world.
  • Shouts are useful if you can just snack on dragon souls to gain their power. They're much less useful when you literally have to spend decades learning how to do the basics. Ulfric spent a substantial amount of time learning how to Shout and all he got was part of Unrelenting Force. Most of the upper-end draugr you fight only learned parts of Unrelenting Force and Disarm, and those were apparently the most skilled and powerful of the old humans under the dragons. Its a skill that takes a vast amount of time and experience and study and practice to use at all, let alone effectively enough to be useful in battle.
  • Also, keep in mind that the Greybeards do not train everyone who makes the pilgrimage to High Hrothgar. Very few who get up there are accepted by the Greybeards as students of the Way of the Voice, and the Greybeards are apparently very exacting in the training and usage of the Voice. Ulfric was among the last they accepted.
• For practical purposes, you can replicate most of the Voice's properties with magic, plus magic gives you a bunch of abilities that Shouts don't, and it's a lot less trouble to learn for a non-Dragonborn. Why spend twenty years of monastic study to figure out how to Fus Ro Dah a bear off a cliff, when you could spend twenty minutes reading a Tome of Calm to figure out how to make it not attack you in the first place?
• If I remember correctly, Pocket Guide to the Empire said there was suppose to be a school in Markarth where anyone could learn to use Shouts. No idea what happened to this concept.
• Bear in mind that the Greybeards would only allow to train those who will use the Thu'um to praise he gods, so they will definitely not train anyone with ulterior motives. This is also the reason why Ulfric left, as his concern for Skyrim's affairs contradicts the Greybeards' pacifistic nature

Nords and magic regulations (or the lack thereof)

• Considering how Nords are so anti-magic how come there aren't stronger attempts to regulate magicians that are outside of the college? Seems like they just let random mages walk around skyrim and set up twisted experiments in abandoned places.
  • Are you going to pick a fight with somebody who can turn you into a newt? They hate mages because they're afraid of what they can do, whether purposefully or by accident.
  • "Doesn't like magic" != "anti-magic regulations." Not to mention most of the Jarls like having a court mage or three around to provide services. Also keep in mind that while a lot of Nords don't like magic, they feel that physical strength and fighting capability are superior to using magic. Banning a form of combat that is inferior to physical martial prowess is just silly from their perspective.
  • The concept 'If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns' applies. It would be unthinkably foolish to instate anti-magic regulations, as it would mean that those who wish to continue using magic wouldn't have an easy time in society and would remove themselves from Skyrim society at best, or turn to banditry at worst. Making the College the one 'safe' place to practice magic freely would make for a pretty severe power imbalance in the long run and would probably lead to even more political shenanigans. After all, look at Necromancy in Cyrodiil circa Oblivion. Just one aspect of magic was declared forbidden, and so those practitioners mustered their resources to try to destroy the Mages Guild. Now, consider if all of magic was treated similarly throughout Skyrim.
  • Note that the general Nord opinion on magic is that it is inferior to fighting physically, but not many Nords are opposed to magic itself. Even the most virulent mage-haters like the Jarl of Winterhold is more against the unrestrained use of magic by the College itself than magic as a whole. In fact, quite a few Nords are appreciative of magic, going by guard commentary. "Destruction magic's fine, just don't go burning down any villages." "So you're the one who casts those illusions, huh? Impressive." "Hail summoner. Conjure me up a warm bed, would you?" "Hey, could you enchant my sword? Dull old blade can barely cut butter," and most importantly of all, "I have a lot of respect for the Restoration school. Skyrim could use more healers." If anything, the Nords seem to have a more negative opinion on thievery, going by how they're openly distrusting and derisive if you have higher level thieving skills.
  • I think a better comparison is being technically adept, like knowing coding or how to build a computer. People who are technically inept will call those skilled in electronics "nerds" and mock their perceived weakness, because they aren't big and strong and have a manly job like "real men." The extremes are similar to people who hate new technology and are suspicious of the "evil science stuff" that these scientists are doing in their laboratories. However, even those who insult nerds will give some grudging respect when they ask if one could fix their iPod or set up their Netflix for them.
  • It's not about regulating it or fearing it'll end up in the wrong hands - the Nords just think magic is for sissies. It's not even a thing to be despised, those who use magic and heckled and ridiculed. It should also be noted that this actually has some grounding in actual Norse society - seidr was a form of magic used amongst them, practiced mainly by women. Men who practiced seidr were rare, primarily due to the fact that doing so brought a taboo upon them called "ergi". Seidr (that is magic) was considered unmanly because it relied on trickery and was opposite to the open, honest manner in which men were to conduct themselves. This same principle applies here. Notice that women NPC who use magic aren't nearly subject to the same anti-magic stigma in Skyrim.
  • It seems to me the reason Nords don't bother regulating magic is because they have pretty strong defenses against it. If ever a mage decides to go rogue the guards can stop by the nearest alchemist and load up on Potions of Resist [blank]. And they can always have the court wizard make them a whole mess of magic-resistant armor and weapons that drain magicka if they really need it. So mages aren't any more threatening to the people of Skyrim than your average bandit gang.
    • It's also worth noting that magic in Skyrim tends to be somewhat self-regulating. Everyone starts with the novice-level spells—Flames and/or Healing—and you can purchase novice-level spell tomes for very little gold. But apprentice-level tomes cost more gold, and adept-level tomes even more than that. Expert-level spell tomes only come from the college itself, and master-level spells have to be taught by the college directly. Your average Skyrim citizen probably won't have enough gold to really be a threat.
  • Keep in mind that they don't "let" mages go around setting up twisted experiments. The fact that evil mages and necromancers and warlocks often have to hide out in dark caves or ruins to conduct their magical experiments is an indication that what they're doing is illegal and would be stopped by regular Nord society. There probably are some regulations in each hold regarding the use of magic, but they're likely similar to regulations against attacking people or stealing. For example, casting illusion or alteration spells on someone is considered the same as assault.
    • Nahhh, c'mon, it's just that everybody is approximately of one mind when it comes to the definition of despicable. Figure, with the Aedra and Daedra, anyone who crosses that despicable line, lightly or heavily, will probably have no choice but to get thoroughly involved with them . . . sort of adding to the magic bias around there.

Inverse Dragonrend

• So if using Dragonrend is basically a mindscrew by showing the dragon the concept of mortality, why can't a dragon do a similar thing By shouting something along the lines of "Immortal Infinite Eternal"?
  • They kind of don't need to. You need Dragonrend because the dragons are massive, many-tonned flying forces of mayhem and mortal-chomping, whereas you are a small, crunchy mortal. Dragonrend is needed to stun these massive beasts and force them to land, whereas you don't need to fly and can get tossed around by a single Fus. There's no reason for them to bother.
  • There's no guarantee that kind of shout would work on the Dragonborn either. The Dragonborn is mortal and immortal at the same time, being a Dragon in a mortal's body.
  • That and being tossed across the room by a Fus Ro Dah accomplishes the same thing against meatbag mortal. The Dragons likely just never bothered since they don't use Unrelenting Force on you either.
  • It's also possible (thought it would be a slight stretch) to assume that a dragon implanting the concept of immorality on a mortal, while disorienting them, would actually end up empowering the mortal. The concept of mortality distresses the dragons enough to make them face plant onto the ground, but doing the reverse might cause the Dragonborn to get more hyped-up mid-battle, which probably isn't what an attacking dragon wants. This might be why the Dragonborn is a mortal; so something like Dragonrend couldn't work on them.
  • It would take too long (lol) ie "Eternal" Maybe not to perform the shout, but probably to gather an focus all the energies needed to be infused into the single word Eternal. By that account Immortal would require a life . . . . or maybe that's why human's originally didn't trust them because with the existence of an Elder Scroll a dragon could probably do that.

Giant souls

• How is it that Giants have a Greater Soul size while their pet Mammoths have Grand Souls? It's true that in real life elephants are very intelligent animals, but the Giants have their own language, they make their own tools and clothing, they're a possible offshoot of elves, and they domesticated mammoths.
  • The power of a soul isn't just based on how intelligent a being is. A related question would be why the clearly Ehlnofey-related giants haven't got Black souls, but then, neither do the modern Falmer...
  • Just blatant gameplay and story segregation. The mammoths have higher stats, so the designers thought they would be harder to kill, and thus gave them more powerful souls. In morrowind, some very powerful creatures give very small or no souls at all, as it wouldn't make sense for them to have large souls. They simply have it this way in Skyrim for game reasons.
  • Possibly from the mammoths' point of view, it's them that domesticated the giants. Having a bunch of servants with tool-making skills to provision and defend you is probably worth the price of occasionally getting milked or hauling them and their goods around.

Throw Voice

• Throw Voice. So, you need to absorb the powers of dragons and master an ancient art...to taunt people? I could understand if the effect was just a normal incantation in dragon language like any other shout, but no - it causes you to spout weird insults. How is that special?
  • It causes you to spout insults from a different direction than the one you are at. Rather, I causes something ELSE to spout an insult without you being near it.
  • Throw Voice actually involves accurately generating a voice from a completely different location with sufficient volume to actually draw someone's attention and pull them away. The voice itself is magically generated.
    • Also, while not stated, there may also be a bit of magical compulsion involved (thus why it works on anything it can succeed on). It's not just taunting words from thin air, it's also a low-end compulsion that draws the target in, like a Géis.

Greybeard teaching methods

• If the Dragonborn needs only to see a word (And use a Dragon Soul) to learn a Thu'um, why don't the Greybeards - or Esbern for that matter, just write down every word of Draconic they know on a piece of paper and make you read it? While it's possible Esbern doesn't know Draconic writing, and the Greybeards wouldn't do it because of some religious bullcrap, there's other people with a grasp of the Draconic language, like Farengar Secret-Fire. Why make the Dragonborn go spelunking to find those word walls? Translating what is on the word walls shows there's nothing really special written on them. It's not like the walls tie into the shout they teach you, or give a particular emphasis to the associated word. Take for example the word wall for "Statue" (Nus) of Ice Form:
  Sigruuf raised (this) stone for his sister's memory, Lanal, whose beautiful face was as sharp and white as a statue carved from living ivory.
  • Apparently simply being able to read the words is not enough. You have to fundamentally know the word to summon it as a Thu'um. So apparently it's not so simple as merely writing it on a piece of paper for someone to look at. Also, the game seems to imply that not all of the Draconic language is known, even to the Greybeards. The Word Walls you find in ancient ruins and things were lost when the Dragon Cults fell out of power.
    • The knowledge of a word to turn said word into a thu'um is gained by spending Dragon Souls - as explained by the Greybeards. This has nothing to do with where you read the word from.
    • Except only the Dovahkiin can absorb a dragon's soul as it dies, so obviously that isn't the key factor. Spending dragon souls seems to be more of a shortcut to unlocking a part of a Thu'um that only the Dragonborn can take. For everyone else it takes years and years of careful, diligent study of Draconic before a Thu'um can be used.
    • Actually Arngeir says Dragons can also suck another Dragon's soul upon death. So that's not unique to the Dragonborn.
    • It's been pointed out elsewhere, but there is a fundamental difference between knowing something and comprehending it, and Skyrim acknowledges this. The Word bestows knowledge; the dragon soul bestows comprehension. This is reflected in the way that the Greybeards can create the word for you to read, and then the Greybeard passes on his understanding of that word.
  • There's more to the Word Walls than just having an etching of the Word in question. The Word of Power contains, well, power that you can use to learn that Word. You can't just write it down and bam, instant knowledge. In addition, the Greybeards make it clear that they could likely easily teach you a whole bunch of Words; they do as much when they teach you Roh and Dah, for example. They're not going to do that, though, because they feel that the journey involving finding the Words is the training needed to temper you into using the Words properly.
    • There's nothing in game saying that word walls are special the way you imply. Quite the opposite actually, if you bother to read them as most are at best glorified dedication plaques. And if the Greybeards won't do it, that's fine, but there's other people who can read Draconic, like Farengar and Esbern.
    • There's nothing in the game saying the word walls are special, but the fact that they pulse with obvious magical power that can be absorbed by the Dragonborn strongly suggests there is something special about them.
    • So according to you some artisan built the wall, then decided to enchant one word carved into the wall. Often the least relevant word in whatever is written in the wall with a magic dohicky so if a Dragonborn ever happened to look at his wall (Baring an inscription that has nothing to do with Dragons or Dragonborns) they'd get a magic word out of it? And this isn't a one time thing either, apparantly dozens of artists through history came upon the same idea? How does this make more sense than "Dragonborn can just learn words for Thu'um via reading them once from any source and spending a dragon soul on them, and the words just glow coz all Thu'um worthy words glow to a Dragonborn upon first seeing them" ? Why would people enchant random monuments to teach Dragonborns Thu'ums when those monuments are clearly meant to serve other purposes?
    • Not even trying to read this whole thing before I add this, not intentionally repeating if stated already. It's like mentioned above:
    • Dragonborn has innate ability to comprehend and perform Shout based on words capable of being incorporated/used for Shouts. I don't believe it's mentioned why the language itself is particularly conducive to Thu'um.
    • Part of teh process involves comprehension, therefore, it is probable that the Dovahkin's journey on the way to the Word Wall is mentally "whetting" comprehension mechanisms of the magic. The example that stands out in my mind is the Word Wall in Knevel the Tongue's crypt. I mean, it's not like I personally learned a Thu'um that day, but it had the most influence/impact because at the time, I had quite a difficult time defeating him. "If only he hadn't kept blasting me with Disarm Shouts!!!!!" lol
    • Further, it seems somwhat obv (obv meaning process of elimination, thank you) that the specific purpose/intention of inscribing the word is what "primes" it meaning, apparently not just anyone can cause a word of Draconic to become/exist "primed". I am deducing this from how when Arngeir carves the first Shouts in the snow they begin to glow; they are intended for Thu'um comprehension. Same goes for the Word Walls being that though a completely different medium, still glows. It would seem a sly Dragon Cult mason was capable of "instilling" by carving the rune with intention, denoting the mason's necessity to comprehend Thu'um.
    • Lastly, Ruleof Cool, ITSARUUUUNE!!!!! If there are Elder Scrolls then likely any manner of permanent enchanment could placed upon the written word of dragons.
    • Hi there, welcome to The Elder Scrolls. Weird, seemingly nonsensical shit like this happens in Nirn. Compared with some of the stuff happening elsewhere, a single word on a wall being empowered to grant dragons knowledge of a part of the Thu'um is perfectly normal. Remember, this is a setting where causality taking a smoke break is so common that they have a recognized in-universe term for large-scale violation of causality (dragonbreaks). This is a setting where a mountain-sized giant mecha is laying siege to the Summerset Isles across hundreds of multiple timelines and dates at the same time. Hell, this is a setting where, if Vivec is to be believed, you can literally develop the ability to use console commands. Not as in altering reality with magic, but as in in-universe ability to use the console. Random words in the dragon tongue bestowing knowledge to dragons is not terribly strange considering all the other funky mojo.
    • Actually, if you pay close attention while you're being trained by the Greybeards, you can see exactly how a Word of Power is formed: someone with sufficient power in the Thu'um can etch the word directly into the stone by speaking it. Since most of the Word Walls seem to have been built before the First Era by Nords using the dragon language, it stands to reason that someone strong in the Thu'um could have left a Word of Power there in the dedication, either as a sign of respect or to serve as a means of allowing Dragonborn throughout the ages to access that power. Or Akatosh could have done it, as he did possess enough foresight to make sure a Dragonborn would pass through Skyrim at exactly the right moment to defeat Alduin when he returned.
    • It may not be that the actual words are enchanted, but rather the methodology of crafting the Walls has significance. IE, because they may have been created by the Thu'um, they innately resonate with draconic souls. Thus why Dovah seem to be drawn to them (notice how many outdoor Walls will have Dragons near them), and why the Dragonborn can innately draw knowledge of words from them.
    • This Troper thought the absorbed souls were allowing the Dragonborn to read and comprehend words in an entirely new way (call it Dragonknowledge). The word "Statue" might not mean much beyond mortal reckoning of its definition normally, but suck down some of that draconic soul juju and suddenly you realize that word is a WEAPON. One of those souls probably just whispered the fact in your ear.
    • Then it would not explain how you first learn "Fus" since you do not have any absorbed dragon souls by this point.
    • Incorrect. You always have at least one dragon soul by the time you learn "Fus": Your own.
    • What's to explain? You absorb Mirmulnir's soul, which grants you both the word "Fus" and the ability to understand it.
    • You get "Fus" from the Word Wall in Bleak Falls Barrow, same place you get the Dragonstone. Absorbing Mirmulnir's soul lets you use it. Same as every other word (except the ones where the Greybeards give you their knowledge, and even then you get the word then the knowledge), except it's the first one so you don't know what you're doing yet.
    • The words have power because they have power, some tiny clingy bit of magic decided that a random word in the oldest, most powerful language in existence etched into stone would be a cool place to reside for the rest of eternity. The Greybeards tell you when you ask them to locate a word that they "feel a whisper of a word", its not someone enchanting it, its not because the wall holds significances. Its because somehow, someway, likely unique for each wall, a tiny bit of power became trapped, either through the years, or the etching process, or the because the carver felt particularly strongly about the word or subject matter. Maybe its Akatosh himself reaching out to his chosen to grant them access to what they need in order to live up to their father's plans and goals and become the Dovahkiin.
    • Honestly, that's the most sensical answer I've seen so far.
  • It's not complicated. For Talos' sake, you can ask them right then and there why the Greybeards are making you go out and find the Words yourself. Arngier says that he fears you are "learning so much, so quickly" and that rather than let your Instant Expert abilities go to your head (which has apparently killed many other Dragonborn), he wants you to go out and find the Words yourself so that your experience can temper your abilities. He could easily just write out all the Words and transfer all of his knowledge to you, but that's not going to teach you anything beyond how to Shout. You'd gain the ability to Shout without gaining the experience and understanding to know when and how to use that power, which is your responsibility as Dragonborn to know.

More souls questions

• So are souls eternal as most monotheistic, and some polytheistic, religions believe? I ask this because the Dragonborn is able to absorb the souls of dragons that are apparently supposed to be immortal creatures. Not to mention there are spiritual entities that claim they have dibs on your soul. What does this mean? Does your soul cease to exist when it has been claimed by someone else? Do they hold on to it for eternity or does it get released eventually?
  • They hold on to it eternally. See the souls in the soul cairn, some that have been there for eras. Souls are eternal unless something destroys them (IE: a Dragonborn absorbing a Dragon's soul). There's variance in that depending on religions in the world and what not.
    • So beings that are eternal like the Daedric Princes or the 9 Divines, just as an example, don't get bored of holding on to your soul forever? They wouldn't go like, "Dragonborn, I know I've held on to your soul for 200 million years (or some other extremely long period of time), based on a contract you made during a mortal life span not truly comprehending the scale of the cost it would have, but I'm going to continue punishing you forever and ever.", correct?
    • Who says it's punishment? Most of those are afterlives that are supposed to be interesting for the parties involved (Hunting alongside Hircine for Werewolves, Influencing luck and helping thieves unseen for Nightingales, etc...) Some are boring, like the Soul Cairn, which is why being soul trapped is shown as a bad fate to wind up at.
    • Second. I think the key correspondence here is between forever and afterlife. It's not like the various realms and Aedra/Daedra arbitrarily chose forever for the span of a soul, it's just that they had the best example to draw from in terms of how long mortal death lasts. Like, think Sheograth's library and Mora's Ohgman Ifinium. Both are technically true and complete magical libraries, and the Infinium existing within Sheograth's library gives of a semblance of eternity, the only difference, I guess, being how all that eternity is presented and organized. This could pertain to the "lifespan" of a soul in a similar way, as it exists eternally (possibly) but still requires a place to exist within while simultaneously being part of and governed by it.
    • That assumes that an immortal entity would give the slightest damn about time or an individual, vastly inferior, entity such as yourself. A soul, having been taken, is essentially a piece of property for X divine being and hardly the only one they possess. They may be willing to give it up at some point, but they're going to hold on to their contracts out of principle if nothing else. Besides, 200 million years is no different than a second compared to eternity.
    • Daedric Princes care about souls the same way you or I would care about pennies. With the exception of certain types of souls, like, say, the Dragonborn, a soul is a soul and they don't care beyond that.

Why did Ulfric even bother with the Thu'um?

• The narrative makes it very clear that Torryg's token martial training was nothing compared to him, a veteran in his prime, and that he could have beaten him easily by force of arms alone. Was it to give the impression he was chosen by Talos, or something? Was it to emphasize his adherence to the Old Ways in the fact he knew the ancient power of the Dragon tongue? Was it to showcase his spiritual and mental qualities that he was able to learn so much from the Greybeards?
  • Ulfric's entire cause is based around "The old ways" and what not. What better way than to shout down is enemies like Jurgen Windcaller did, and to show his right to rule by demonstrating his shout like that of the great heroes of old? In his own words: "It'll make for a better song". Ulfric is all about his self image.
    • There is the minor problem that he went against what Jurgen Windcaller (and the Greybeards that followed him) stood for when he did it, but then again the Stormcloaks' Old Ways seems a hodge-podge of the old and the relatively new anyway, so doing it like the Nord Heroes of Really Old rather than what's been the tradition for millenia is in character (and the whole 'it'll make a better song' thing makes it even more in character).
    • Uhm, the Nord heroes using the shouts to defeat tyranny (like Ulfric) actually predates Jurgen Windcaller.
    • Yes, my point exactly (consider that Jurgen Windcaller had a reason for his formation of the Greybeards, and that there would seem to be a reason why the Greybeards have a near-monopoly on the thu'um amongst mortals. Further consider that other parts of what Ulfric and his Stormcloaks cite as the traditional Nord way that is much, much younger than the Greybeards).
    • Hm, I see worshiping Talos. Which by extension is worshiping Shor anyway. Revering Ysgramor (Saarthal and the Great War are directly compared in similarities in one Stormcloak propaganda book and Ulfric is called a hero of similar magnitude as him) both of which would predate Jurgen's kneejerk reaction to using the voice for anything other than pray. It is odd that he would have thought that the way they used the Voice was in contrary to the will of the gods. Considering that Shor himself led them at that battle. If you're talking about referring to the Gods as the Divines, only Galmar makes any explicit reference to that sort of thing. Worshiping Talos does not necessarily mean worshiping the rest of the Nine Divines. Anymore so than worshiping Mehrunes Daegon means to worship Boethiah, I think. That said though, some or even a lot of them probably do worship the Nine anyway. For centuries its been more or less the default religion of the Empire, it being younger than something else does not mean it doesn't constitute tradition. Kind of like how you could argue that Celtic Paganism and Anglo-Saxon paganism is the ancestral faith of the British but traditionally, they are more likely to be some denomination of Christian.
  • From the Imperial viewpoint, Ulfric used the Thu'um because he was a coward who felt he needed an unnecessary edge when the fight was blatantly one-sided anyway. It's all part of the intentional Values Dissonance that the civil war is wrapped in.
  • For the same reason he wants the Dragonborn to be the one to kill him (if you take the Imperial's side) "It will make a better story." Ulfric is a romanticist.
  • Actually, ask Ulfric himself and he states it was meant to show that Torygg didn't have the dedication or discipline to lead Skyrim properly, else he would have also learned the Thu'um or at least known how to counter it. "Any Nord can learn the Way of Voice, given enough determination and dedication. My shouting Torygg to the ground proved he had neither."
    • So... spending twenty years in a monastery learning how to knock stuff over with your voice makes you a better ruler than learning how to rule or actually ruling? Also, even the Dragonborn gets ragdolled by the full Fus Ro Dah and needs a few seconds of button-mashing to get up, whether they know Unrelenting Force or Whirlwind Sprint or Throw Voice. Ulfric is full of it.
  • My own personal cringe at learning (post main quest completion replay) Ulfric actually killed Torygg with the Thu'um gave me the impression he was not prepared for that. iirc, not even mudcrabs literally "come apart" at a Thu'um, and Torygg "[he got] Shouted . . . apart!" ("He shouted him apart!" was the quote lol ftw). I get that Ulfric is pig-headed, but, all things considered, he is not a dishonorable Nord, and is not maniacally psychotic or strategically inept. Just as he would honor the symbolism of Balgruuf's axe later on, it is likely he only meant to extreeemely subdue Torygg, or illustrate the futility of a duel to him right off the bat. Why kill Torygg when Torygg might later become useful? Pretty sure Ulfric, above all, understood unification as the key to his goals. Specifically, what good would it do him (and all of Skyrim) to be at odds with the Empire for crying out loud.
  • No, he meant to kill Torygg. He specifically says he knocked Torygg over with the Thu'um and then stabbed him, and then the tale grew in the telling. "Why kill Torygg when Torygg might later become useful?" Because from Ulfric's point of view, Torygg was a weak and inept king who allowed the ban on Talos worship without a fight.

Why did the Greybeards train Ulfric?

• Did he possess some quality which differentiated him from the others who made the trip to their abode, like Balgruuf? The Elder Scrolls wiki on his page says Ulfric began his training as a boy. Was it because a boy climbed the 7,000 steps that the Greybeards took him in?
  • They presumably test everyone who asks to be trained for worthiness via some unknown method and Ulfric passed. Note that by most accounts at that time Ulfric really wasn't that interested in taking his father's place as Jarl. It's possible Ulfric really did want to become a Greybeard, only leaving later when he found out it wasn't for him because he couldn't let go and ignore the stuff going on outside High Hrothgar. Lastly, Ulfric himself notes: "Any Nord can learn the Way of the Voice by studying with the Greybeards, given enough ambition and dedication." So maybe he just convinced them?
  • Also, I don't think Balgruuf ever implied he had any intention of actually training with the Grey Beards, just that he made the pilgrimage up the Seven Thousand Steps. It's completely possible that Balgruuf did it just to do it, for the spiritual experience.
  • Ulfric did no convincing and, it would seem, had no choice in the matter. The Greybeards came to Windhelm, recognized his potential and asked if they could take him when he was a child. His father enthusiastically accepted, as the title of Greybeard is a tremendous honour. The strange thing is, though, why Ulfric's father would have so easily given him up, as Ulfric states that he's an only child...
    • Ulfric is a hidebound conservative Nord traditionalist from a city of hidebound conservative Nord traditionalists; its not a stretch of the imagination to think that Ulfric's father was the same way. So he enthusiastically hands his child over to the Greybeards because Nord traditions are that you respect the Greybeards, end of sentence. And hey, you can always have more kids.
  • Have my boy be merely heir to my throne, to take over upon my death? Or have my boy be among the Greybeards, who live atop the Throat of the World, one of our most spirtualist places in Skyrim, if not all of Tamriel? He probably thought Ulfric the Greybeard had more honor and glory in it than Ulfric the Jarl apparent.
    • Not to mention, the position of Jarl isn't necessarily hereditary. Many Jarls are succeeded by their children in times of peace, out of respect for the former Jarl, but it is hardly considered a position of nobility, as any Nord can become a Jarl through Asskicking Leads to Leadership.
    • For all we know, Ulfric's father might've sent the boy to High Hrothgar to protect his son from some threat to his own political power. Jarls have been known to get usurped, and in such an event, the heir-apparent of the ex-Jarl won't have much of an expected lifespan if the usurper fears they'll want revenge.
• For non-Dragonborn, the Voice is rather Awesome, but Impractical; it takes years of intense study to master even a single Shout, and most Shout effects can be effectively replicated by buying a spell tome from the local court mage. The Greybeards don't really use them for any practical purpose either, studying them for spiritual purposes more than anything. They probably don't have all that many people asking to train with them; they'd probably train anyone who asked and seemed sincere.

Gold Inflation

• About the Transmute spell. Wouldn't turning iron into silver and silver into gold horrifically reduce the value of all gold on Nirn?
  • It would if it were widespread, but there are precisely two copies of the Transmute spell in the whole game. Evidently the power to transmute base metals into gold is nearly as rare in Skyrim as it is in real life.
  • I've seen mage bandits talk about how wizards "have that secret magic. Turn wood into gold." So it would seem to be something of a rumor even among mages - though bandits in general aren't a particularly educated lot. It's also likely that it's something that would be tempered, at least on the "iron into silver" front, being that while iron may not be worth nearly as much, in practical terms, it' considerably more useful.
  • Well, I personally think that inflation did happen. As I recall, horse is a thousand coins worth, and houses cost from 5 to 25 thousand coins. If we suppose that coins are made of gold, it is pretty high, and a coin, gold coin worth around a dollar or so. And you give several coins to beggars, while IRL many people, even not that poor, saw a gold coin once or twice in their lifetime, if they did at all. The value of coins shouldn't be totally reduced, as you need some iron ore and mana to convert it.
  • It's likely that the wizards who devised the Transmute spell only used it very sparingly. They were probably very aware of how dangerous it would be to flood the market with too much gold. Creating the Transmute spell in the first place was probably just a test to see if it could be done and wasn't intended as a way to actually make money.
    • To that effect, probably yes. I know there isn't an in-game example but speaking in terms of offense, it's good to be able to transmute anything so it can't be blocked by some arbitrary substance, and gold just gets caught up in that.
  • Also take note that a gold bar in game is worth 100 gold, you specifically have to make it into something to actually make it worth something, maybe in the Elder scrolls universe, gold is super common, take our world for example, take note out of your wallet/purse/pocket, look at it, that small rectangle of fibre/polymer is apparently worth more than anything else, why? not because its particularly useful for anything, but because of what it can get you, gold is the same in the ES world (and here too unntil we realised it is a great conductor for electricity and heat)

Why was Dragonrend lost?

• So the ancient Akaviri who were present during Alduin's first defeat carved all their knowledge of him onto Alduin's Wall, knowing that it would come in handy someday when he returned. But they conveniently left out the one piece of information that would actually be useful: the Dragonrend Shout. So let me get this straight: the ancient heroes could carve the Words of Power for things like Shouting forth a puff of fire spell all over Skyrim, but when it came time to carve THE SECRET WEAPON THAT IS THE KEY TO DEFEATING THE IMMORTAL DRAGON-GOD THAT WANTS TO EAT THE ENTIRE UNIVERSE, what? Their arms were tired?
  • First: the Akaviri were not present during the Dragon War for when Dragonrend was created and Alduin was Shouted out of time. The Akaviri didn't even enter Tamriel until 1E 2703, which was thousands of years at least after the Dragon War ended (the Dragon War took place during the Methereic Era, which predated the First Era). They literally could not have carved the Words of Power, let alone have any knowledge of Dragonrend, as it quite literally predated their invasion of Tamriel by nearly three thousand years, if not more. Second, Esbern himself notes while you're studying the wall that the Akaviri were not a straightforward people and that everything they wrote was wrapped up in mythological symbolism; for them the obtuse way in which the Dragonborn prophecy was recorded made sense in their culture. Not to mention that the entire Dragonborn prophecy was brought about by an Elder Scroll, which is not terribly clear and would result in the Akaviri only knowing that there was a Shout that could defeat Alduin, not the specifics of said Shout.
  • Okay, so the Akaviri didn't know Dragonrend. The point is, somebody knew it, and somebody was going around carving all kinds of useless minor shouts all over the place. So why would they fail to carve the most important Shout of all, the key to defeating Alduin, who they knew full well had not been killed but only temporarily banished? Doesn't that seem like something that's kind of important to write down?
    • Dragonrend itself was known only to a few. Not only that, but Dragonrend was consciously abandoned by the only ones who knew it, the followers of the Way of the Voice, as it was a terrible weapon born of pure hatred and malice. Perhaps they did record it somewhere, but either that recorded information was lost, deliberately abandoned by Jurgen Windcaller, or outright destroyed by Windcaller and his disciples once they established the Way of the Voice. By the time of Skyrim, the Greybeards, who would be the only ones who would know of the Words of Power, have completely abandoned Dragonrend and any knowledge regarding it.
    • No one carved shouts anywhere. The stones with shouts actually contain mundane text (Headstones, epitaphs, poems, etc...) and often the word you learn from them is barely related to the topic. The stones aren't made to keep shout, It's the Dragonborn's power that makes him see relevant words in mundane text written in draconic and realise "Oh shit, Shout!" For example, here is the Word Wall for the 2nd word of Slow Time:
    Here fell mighty Warlord Aaban Child of (the) sands of Alik'r; rest now in (the) soil (of) Skyrim.
    • You're missing a key element of the Thu'um here. It's entirely possible that someone did carve out the specific Words of the Shout. The individual words are not difficult or strange in and of themselves. However, keep in mind that just having the words for Mortal, Finite, Temporary is not enough for a Shout. You also need the comprehension of the concepts embodied in the Shout, and a key element of Dragonrend is pure, relenting hatred for dragonkind. Since the Way of the Voice has no place for that sort of hatred, as well as the fact that dragons have steadily been dying out due to the Akaviri Dragonguard's reavings, the hatred for dragons needed to actually speak Dragonrend has vanished. The Greybeards may know the Words, but they cannot teach you Dragonrend because they don't have the emotions and comprehension of absolute hatred of dragons to pass the knowledge on to you. Without being able to go back to a time where someone hated the dragons enough to make the Shout, and absorb that directly from those who created it, you can't hope to relearn it.
  • Short answer: You cannot teach Dragonrend, nor can Dragonrend be learned via simply reading it, so writing it down will be useless without the emotion and comprehension that comes with it, and the Greybeards intentionally forgot both.
  • Long answer: Consider what Dragonrend is: it's not simply words carved into stone, it's hatred and malice toward Dragonkind formed into the words of a Shout. The words alone don't mean anything without that terrible malice, and as such there's no reason to preserve Dragonrend, by the perspective of Jugen Windcaller of the Greybeards. They didn't maintain knowledge of it because it was an anathema to their beliefs regarding the Way of the Voice. The only reason why anyone even knew of the Shout was because the Akaviri came along and carved it into Alduin's Wall, and the only reason why they knew the Shout even existed was because the knowledge of the Prophecy of the Last Dragonborn was acquired via study of an Elder Scroll - a process that is handled by the Cult of the Ancestor Moth, an Imperial institution. The Akaviri were dragon hunters who hated dragons so much they sailed across the planet to keep hunting and killing them, and there is no reason at all that the Greybeards would consider communicating with them, let alone giving them information or knowledge regarding a Shout intended to kill dragons, since there's no doubt that the Akaviri Dragonguard would take pains to preserve that sort of information, even if they had to form their own Thu'um-practicing monks who lived in total, festering hatred of dragons so they could keep passing the nature of Dragonrend down. Indeed, it is entirely reasonable to suspect that no one in the modern world would be able to pass on Dragonrend, because no one in modern Tamriel both hates dragons enough and possesses the knowledge of the Thu'um to pass it on. Note that the only way the player can even learn Dragonrend is to literally go back in time and observe the heroes of Skyrim, who lived in an age of immense oppression and fear of dragons, and watch them use the Shout. That is the only way to not only get the words, but also the hatred inherent to the Shout.
  • Nother (other Troper) Short Answer: in an above section it's mentioned how magicks are contained within the runes of prospective Shouts, and that is a reason Greybeard's can 'hear' them and why Dragons tend to hang around Word Walls. SO, it is possible and probable that Dragon Rend had been recorded in some manner, but was hiiiighly detectable via this residual-osity of power, thus thereby and likely destroyed by any dragons of the offended persuasion. While, strangely, I technically agree with the statement that it probably wasn't recorded due to the nature of it's hatred, I find it highly unbelievable the original rebellion felt legitimately in the clear. That is unless the jolt from the Elder Scroll left them with strong enough shell shock that they somewhat grasped when Alduin, the true danger, would be making his way back.
    • Even if the original rebellion held onto Dragonrend, that was more than three thousand years prior and more than a thousand years before Jurgen Windcaller subjugated the Nord Tongues and the Greybeards were founded. Knowledge gets lost over time, especially when the ones responsible for maintaining the knowledge intentionally forget it.

Regarding Soul Gems

Where do they come from? Are they mined somewhere, or manufactured? And how? And why, with the exception of black soul gems, are the people of Tamriel totally okay with the idea of fueling magical gear with the living souls of other creatures? And what happens to their souls? We know human and mer souls get sent to the Soul Cairn for eternity, but what about the souls of, say, foxes? Do they just get broken down into raw energy, or do they go to some kind of foxy version of the Soul Cairn?

• Soul gems are mined. They can be recovered from Geode Veins in Blackreach, and presumably through regular mines elsewhere. They can also be created directly in the Soul Cairn, presumably for use by necromancers. As for people being okay with it, they clearly are, considering how blase everyone is about enchanting equipment with souls; Deliberate Values Dissonance and all that. Serana notes that usually only black soul gem souls go to the Soul Cairn; white souls just become energy, unless its some weird circumstance like Arvak.
• Is it confirmed that 'normal' people are aware of how soul gems work? I was under the impression only Necromancers and other people who really delved into it weren't aware of the exact mechanics behind things.
  • Not in an official fashion. Anyone in Skyrim has as much a chance as getting most of the same info the player can access throughout the game. Nords, in general, have a magic bias so it might seem overly eccentric throughout Skyrim.
• The idea that animals can be considered people, is a extremely new concept.
• I don't think anyone minds being that everyone hunts for meat, and it's just a different side of the same coin. There might be a small exception with the cult of Hircine as they are big on what they consider the proper passage of the soul in death during the hunt. I am assuming since Hircine has a bestial hunting companion (or form, I don't remember) they tend to extend that to souls of beasts, as well, under certain circumstances. In the link at the end of one of the descriptions he "is often looked up to by other hunters, fishers, and trappers" so I would be led to beleive if Hircine told them to chill because he needed beast souls then they would chill.

Restoration Spells and Wounded Soldiers

• Why is it that you can't use them on the wounded soldiers and ill people you find? For example, those in the Temple of Kynoreth. I sat there and used my whole Magicka bar on healing the soldier, and there was no effect.
  • Gameplay and Story Segregation. This is actually a common problem in games with healing spells/potions/whatever.
  • It could be that the healing spells aren't designed for healing those ways. When you apply healing spells or potions to your self, you're typically using it on fresh or superficial wounds, like burns, slashes or bruises, and the fact that you have Critical Existence Failure means you don't yet have any life-threatening afflictions. In pretty much all cases of wounds that aren't Death of a Thousand Cuts, like the impalement finishers, no amount of healing magic can fix that. In the cases of the wounded soldiers, they're superficially fine, but have major internal injuries like shattered legs, internal bleeding, and other deep stuff that only time has the possibility of healing. Finally, it obviously won't work on the ill; since when does casting a healing spell remove a disease? You need to just wait out that disease or give them the right potion, though Gameplay and Story Segregation means you can't give them a Cure Disease potion unless the narrative asks for it.
  • It's probable that many of the wounded aren't simply injured, but they're suffering from diseases and infections, which restoration spells will not heal on their own. If they were wounded in battle and the injury was dirty or it took time for a healer to get to them to seal the wound closed, an infection could have set in and that is vastly harder for a mage to heal, especially with the sort of stuff Peryite likes to throw around. Remember that your healing spells are always being applied to very fresh wounds, not ones that have been festering for days with only a filthy, blood-soaked bandage to keep them closed.
    • This is backed up by some lore books discussing healing magics. For example, Ashlander Wise Women indicates that a hunter who was badly gored by a wild beast was expected to die, and that a significant ritual by one of the aforementioned Wise Women was needed to heal him, something that the author thought was "miraculous." This implies magics outside of the typical rapid mid-battle healing spells are needed to tend to extreme, likely-fatal wounds. Most likely, when the player or an opponent is "killed" in combat and thus cannot be healed by magic, they're often suffering a severely incapacitating wound that will result in their death soon and no amount of normal healing magic can properly address an injury of that magnitude without immediate surgery and followed up by long-term care. Likely many of the wounded soldiers in the temples were hastily stabilized in the field or have badly=infected wounds that require long-term care, and conventional healing isn't going to patch them up.
  • A possibility is that Restoration magic is, in general, simply expediting the normal healing process (closing up wounds and such), but trying to use it on more severe wounds isn't going to work correctly. Using the Inheritance Series as an example, in order to heal severe wounds, perhaps the healer has to KNOW what to fix, or else exacerbate the problem. So trying to, say, heal a soldier with a broken arm without knowing how to set the bones correctly would end with that soldier's arm ending set exactly how it was when you tried healing it (bones all askew, arm permanently deformed or crippled, etc).
  • Wow, exactly. There is a heal spell and a heal companion spell, making it obvious that healing magicks must be very specifically attuned. There also the little trick of placing potions or antidotes in the afflicted's pocket . . . .

Shouts

• In game, the Greybeards and Parthunaxx stress repeatedly that you must fundamentally know a Word of Power in order to use it. For example, you have to know what Balance -Ro- truly means in order to utilize it in the iconic shout, what I want to know is, would you be able to use it in other shouts? Or would you have to re-learn the Word of Power in order to use it in another shout?
  • I would think that once the Dovahkiin understood what 'Ro' meant, he/she could simply apply it to another shout if he/she knew it could work. But no, I don't think he/she would have to relearn the word.
  • The Dragonborn's Thu'um is powerful but simple when compared to what a true master of the Thu'um can do. You probably can use Words of Power in other contexts, and you certainly can use them as part of a general sentence or recombine them into other Shouts. We see as much when the Greybeards speak. The Dragonborn is using a very brutal and primal application of the Thu'um, with each Word being a sudden shock of insight and understanding that is then transformed into total comprehension when a dragon's soul is used to comprehend the Word - in effect, you use the dragon's soul to hijack it's basic understanding of the Shout to absorb the meaning and fundamentals of the concept contained in that Word. But if s/he were to spend decades training and studying with the Greybeards, then the Dragonborn could likely learn to recombine those individual words into sentences and new Shouts, much like the ancient Nords created Dragonrend.
  • Not sure. Without a specific in-game example, there are same syllables(ie words) in various unrelated shouts. This would suggest comprehension is automatic, much as the Dragonborn's ability to understand Draconic upon his awakening, but unlocking them/infusing them through a dragon soul is not. It is confusing considering those "same" words/syllables are organized into shouts based on which Word Wall they separately come from.
  • One possibility is that using the word in a shout draws on contextual comprehension. You understand "Ro" in the context of "Fus-Ro-Dah", but to use it in another Thuum, you'd need to understand how it applies to that particular concept (Balance, for example, could be interpreted as physical balance (in Unrelenting Force), or as the metaphysical or conceptual balance in another shout.