Discussion VideoGame / Persona3

• Alternate Continuity / Continuity Snarl / Series Continuity Error - The game could be any of these and nobody is quite sure which - it's really not very clear just how P3 snaps together with the previous Persona games. There's quite a few subtle and not-so-subtle hints that it takes place in the same continuity, but then certain things just don't seem right at all (namely, "Shadows"? Where the heck did the demons go? And why the heck do the Shadows seem to behave like d - Oh, Crap!. But then they don't at the same time, and... it gets complicated.) A fair bit of MST3K Mantra applies, since the game stands well enough on its own, although a lot of fans still want a clear answer either way, since if all the games are contiguous then that colors some revelations in P3 and P4 (such as Erebus and Nyarlathotep as related beings in some fashion - which would actually explain a lot.) Naturally, Atlus has yet to say anything anything about this one way or the other, leaving fans guessing.
  • Connections to the older Persona games can be found, such as the television program "Who's Who," hosted by Trish, where she mentions characters from Persona and Persona 2, and what they're up to at the time. Persona 3 and 4 also have butterfly motifs, which also go back to the first games and Philemon.
    • In fact, Word of God has stated that the butterflies in The Answer and in P4 are Philemon, who is now taking more of an "observer" role. There's been no elaboration beyond the fact that he's around, however.

That is friggin' huge, it's already covered by Mythology Gag anyway and there's very little connection to the first two games apart from said Mythology Gags. The "snarl" only comes from how they're interpreted, and that's what the Just Bugs Me and Wild Mass Guessing pages are for.

• Is it actually said to be horrific? I think I read in the Megami Tensei Wiki that the Great Seal is basically a golden gate and his soul guards it.
  • It wouldn't be horrific, except that he's a statue chained to the doors, holding them shut and is periodically assaulted by the local Eldritch Abomination that happens to exist because of humanity's collective will to die. This means that unless humanity as a whole changes so that said creature ceases to exist, he will be there for all eternity like that.
  • However the protagonist chooses to be in that state, referring to the whole "this is the path of my choosing" bit (even though it's really a But Thou Must!). He simply makes a supreme sacrifice to ensure the survival and happiness of others (esp. his friends). In this perspective, it sounds rather like something that a messiah would actually do.

Natter go squish.

• Beat Them at Their Own Game - The Shadows' true nature is that they are the fragments of human emotions, both negative and positive, i.e. The Heartless. The reason why Shadows can be destroyed by Personas is—you guessed it—Personas are Shadows themselves, and the user has control over them.

That's like saying a wizard fighting another wizard is Beat Them at Their Own Game because they both use magic. Beat Them at Their Own Game is about the hero's deliberate strategy to, well, "beat them at their own game", not just the hero and villain both using a neutral power.

• Broke Your Arm Punching Out Cthulhu - No. You do not get to kill Nyx. You might be able to seal her away, if you give your life to turn yourself into her seal.
  • Nor does you can kill Erebus for real. It will return as long as humanity call out for Nyx.

Broke Your Arm Punching Out Cthulhu is about making things worse by punching Cthulhu. Neither one of the above made things worse, they're just not full victories.

• Captain Ersatz - When they created Aigis, the character designers appear to have been influenced by KOS-MOS.

It's debatable, since delicate-looking female combat androids are practically their own trope in anime, and Captain Ersatz is about very specific, unmistakable examples.

• Crowning Moment Of Awesome - Aigis battle against Ryoji on the Moonlight Bridge. Although she loses quickly. Also the final battle against Death, and the first time the hero uses the evoker.
• Crowning Moment Of Heartwarming - Various. Just one of them is when you take Shinjiro to the movie festival on the 23rd of September.
  • Don't you people dare to forget the "Junpei's Resolve" scene!
• Crowning Moment Of Funny - Junpei, Akihiko and the male protagonist try picking up girls on the beach and hilarity freaking ensues. Gets better in Portable as this is where Kashiwagi from Persona 4 makes her cameo.
  • "Operation Babe Hunt" is even funnier when you realize the background music is the same as the first full moon boss music, because picking up chicks at the beach is Serious Business.
  • Also, "Execution." In Portable, the stealth mini-game is turned into choice-making. You can hide by faking a cat meow, Yukari will wonder if it's a fox, and you get the option to berate her by saying "It's a cat!" for some Epic Fail.
  • One of the epilogues to the social links the Hermit link, Toriumi's (the protagonist's teacher) spectacular Freak Out upon the realization that the protagonist and her net-game friend are the same person. You see, she'd revealed to her 'friend' during the link that she had a huge crush on a certain student, and... well, I think you can see where this is going.
• Crowning Music Of Awesome - Poem/Aria/Song for Everyone's Soul (Velvet Room theme) and an awesome remix of it for the final battle, aptly named The Battle for Everyone's Soul.

The Crowning Moments should really be on their own page, since they're subjective tropes. I might move these over to their respective pages later, if they're not already there.

• Cutting Off the Branches - For the heroine in P3P, you don't get the option to upgrade to a romantic relationship with Junpei (though given the circumstances that follow, it's understandable.)

Since the male MC couldn't date Junpei either, that's not cutting off the branches.

• Dead Little Sister - Subverted.

Way, way too vague.

• Defeating the Undefeatable - Subverted. It turns out that everyone was right all along - Nyx is, in fact, undefeatable. Since there was never any way of "defeating" her, the Main Character instead used his soul as the Great Seal, a barrier between humanity and Nyx.

That's not really what that trope's about, and the entry goes on to subvert/avert/twist the trope sideways so much that it's easier to just say not an example and cut. Besides, Did You Just Punch Out Cthulhu? covers the same ground.

• Demonic Spider - Any Shadow can become this if it exploits the Main Character's elemental weaknesses or consistently lands critical hits. Doubly so in Hard mode, where the damage from elemental spells is increased exponentially, meaning that getting knocked down to a critical hit is a death sentence. Triply so in The Answer, which is locked in Hard mode AND you cannot re-summon already created Personas at will, requiring you make do with what you find/recreate — and whatever resistances those Persona have.

Listing every monster doesn't fit the trope, and I can't think of any single monster that would be universally agreed upon as a Goddamn Bats or Demonic Spider.

• Determinator - Akihiko Sanada is the most obvious example, however the entire team can become this if you choose to let Ryoji live.

Why Akihiko? Wouldn't Aigis versus Ryoji be the more obvious choice? Since I don't want to simply replace someone else's example with my own, and Determinator could be applied to so many circumstances and characters depending on each troper's favorite character and scene, I'm just removing.

• Everyone Is Bi - okay, it may just be subtext, but...Yukari/Mitsuru. Fuuka/Natsuki. Akihiko/Shinjiro. Jin/Takaya. The MC and several male social links (Devil, Temperance and Sun, and that's just the most obvious ones).

That's just Alternate Character Interpretation with a preference towards slashing, which comes into play for just about any story with a sizable slash-fic fanbase.

• Takaya is known as Revolver Jesus for reasons that should be obvious. Other nicknames include Cthulhu Jesus and Heroin Jesus.
  • Hippie Jesus
  • Junkie Jesus
  • Vampire Jesus
  • Psycho Jesus
  • Charles Manson
  • Jesus Antichrist Superstar
  • Albino Jesus

I'm skeptical of how many of those Fan Nicknames are genuine, and how many are just injokes for the individual troper who listed each one.

• Functional Magic - Essentially, Persona summoning could be considered a form of Theurgy, with the Personae themselves capable of utilizing Elemental Powers. Fuuka and Mitsuru are apparently also capable of a limited form of Divination as well.

Please, people, theories like that are exactly what the WMG pages are for.

• Gotta Kill Them All - Subverted, as the party thinks that destroying the twelve Full Moon Shadows will end the Dark Hour, but that turns out to be a very bad idea.

This trope is in the game, but I can't figure out how it can possibly be listed without spoiling things. Even saying "Subverted" gives the spoiler away, and having the whole thing in spoiler tags renders the entry useless.

• How To Become A Love Interest - Six of the seven datable girls (and one other) fall under at least one of the categories mentioned on this page.
  • Yukari - First Girl Wins.
    • Aigis could also count, depending on your interpretation of "First Girl"—see Stalker with a Crush example below.
  • Mitsuru - Heroes Want Redheads.
  • Fuuka - Distressed Damsel.
  • Chihiro - Meganekko.
  • Yuko - Hot Amazon
  • Maiko - Childhood Marriage Promise
  • Aigis (again) - Last Girl Wins.
  • Ms. Toriumi - Hot for Student.
  • Elizabeth - Mysterious Waif.
  • And then, of course, the heroine of P3P gets to do this to the guys. In order:
    • Akihiko - Oblivious to Love
    • Ken - Bodyguard Crush
    • Shinjiro - Don't You Dare Pity Me!
    • Ryoji - Star-Crossed Lovers
    • Theodore - Mysterious... Waif (?)

My eyes! That's just a mess, and I don't see what it adds to this page other than a bunch of random trope/character mash-ups. Maybe it's best just to move the above list over the How To Become A Love Interest page, if it's not already there.

• The Igor - Igor, natch, who serves as an aide to the main character.

This keeps getting deleted and added. Just because his name's Igor does not make him The Igor. <_<

• Memetic Mutation: "Summon Your Persona". To a lesser degree, the AI useing Tentarafoo (a skill that confuses all enemies) at the worst time.
  • What? No MARIN FUCKING KARIN?

Do these meme entries ever help any page? To anyone who's not in on the meme, it just looks like random shouting, and to anyone who's in on it, the net effect is just "heh, yeah, I rememeber that". Let's just keep them over on the Memetic Mutation page.

• For the female protagonist, as not to mess with the storyline, she does not have romantic scenes outside her social links (aside from Aigis) and romance in them is optional for her. However, she does have some deep romantic hints with Shinjiro if she maxes out his social link, even if she doesn't have a romantic relationship with him. On the last day before graduation, one of your classmates will wonder why Shinjiro is so eager to get out of the hospital despite only recovering from a coma a few days before. While fairly obvious why if you are lovers with him, even if you aren't, it's likely he would want to see the heroine, as he did harbor feelings for her, and what he believed to be the only obstacle between them (Ken's revenge) is now gone. Surprisingly enough, the heroine's feelings for him if they are in a romantic relationship are not left as ambiguous as the male protagonist, despite never saying them directly. According to the New Game+ ending with Shinjiro, it's hinted she never gave up hope in that he would wake up for a coma, and one of her reasons to stop Nyx was so that there would be a world for him to recover to.
  • Some very Tear Jerker-y Fridge Brilliance kicks in when you remember that at that time nobody remembers what happened during the Dark Hour or any of the friendships that they had formed with each other. This is still in effect before Shinjiro gets out of the hospital, meaning, in theory, he doesn't remember WHY the female protagonist is so important to him (or maybe even at all) but only feels something compelling him to go. Maybe some very heartrending Wistful Amnesia?

Okay, after deleting the fifth Shinjiro-pimping entry so far, Shinji has officially crossed into my Hype Backlash hate list. The above is no more related to the Official Couple trope than any other romantic possibility, such as Ryoji or Akihiko. It's just two tropers gushing, at length, about a relationship they like.

• And even if you become an immobile, impervious casket during the Dark Hour, you can still die by being involved in an accident or if anything happens to your surroundings. You could die in the blink of an eye at precisely midnight and you'd never know what hit you.

I'm not sure that's true. The only three people confirmed as dying in the Dark Hour during the backstory were Ken's mother and the MC's parents and, being the parents of persona users, it's possible they had the potential and remained human too.

• Pair the Spares: A non-romantic case, but near the end of the game, after being warned about The Fall, six of the main characters have scenes for themselves about them deciding that they will fight Nyx. The first two, fairly logical, Mitsuru with Yukari and Akihiko with Ken, which is understandable since they have interaction and connections through the game, and the final pair is with... Junpei and Fuuka, who had barely talked to one another through the entire game. Not that the scene is bad, but it IS a clear Pair the Spares case.

Junpei had a crush on Fuuka for a long time before meeting Chidori, so it's not that out of left field. Also, way too long, rambling and feels like a Just Bugs Me entry on the main page.

• Chidori's death is canon, as confirmed by Junpei referencing it in The Answer. The revival event was a non-canonical FES extra.

That she died is canon. Junpei only says that he wouldn't reverse her death if he could. That says nothing about whether she was revived with amnesia: either way, he still lost her. Also, it's exactly the sort of nitpicking, "aaaactually" natter that clutters up main pages and creates Wiki Schizophrenia.

• Nakama - SEES, the Fool Social Link.
• Cake Eater - Kenji Tomochika, the Magician Social Link.
• Lethal Chef - Fuuka Yamagishi, the Priestess Social Link.
• Defrosting Ice Queen - Mitsuru Kirijo, the Empress Social Link.
• Knight Templar - Hidetoshi Odagiri, the Emperor Social Link.
• Cool Old Guy - Mitsuko and Bunkinchi, the Hierophant Social Link.
• Shorttank - Yukari Takeba, the Lovers Social Link.
• Gretzky Has the Ball - Kazushi Miyamoto, the Chariot Social Link.
• Bokukko - Yuko Nishiwaki, the Strength Social Link.
• Online Personas - "Maya", the Hermit Social Link and also another example of Hot for Student.
• Screw Destiny - Keisuke Hiraga, the Fortune Social Link.
• Meganekko/Shrinking Violet - Chihiro Fushimi, the Justice Social Link.
• Cheerful Child - Maiko, the Hanged Man Social Link.
• Creepy Child - Pharos, the Death Social Link.
• Funny Foreigner - Bebe, the Temperance Social Link.
• Corrupt Corporate Executive - Tanaka, the Devil Social Link.
• Drunken Master - Mutatsu, the Tower Social Link.
• The Ace - Mamoru Hayase, the Star Social Link.
• Big Eater - Nozomi "Gourmet King" Suemitsu, the Moon Social Link.
• Incurable Cough of Death - Akinari "Striped Shirt" Kaminari, the Sun Social Link.
• The Very Definitely Final Dungeon - The Nyx Annihilation Team, the Judgment Social Link.
• Spirit Bomb - The combined power of all your Social Links, the Universe Arcana.
• What Is This Thing You Call "Love"? - Aigis, the Aeon Social Link.
• For the heroine of Portable she has some adjust social links for the female SEES members, and some are completely different thanks to different caharacters:
  • Straight Will And Grace - Junpei Iori, the Magician Social Link
  • Chick Magnet - Akihiko Sanada, the Star Social Link
  • Unlucky Childhood Friend - Rio Iwasaki, the Chariot Social Link
  • Shrinking Violet - Saori Hasegawa, the Hermit Social Link
  • Cute Shotaro Boy - Ken Amada, the Justice Social Link
  • Stoic Woobie - Shinjiro Aragaki, the Moon Social Link
  • Handsome Lech - Ryoji Mochizuki, the Fortune Social Link
  • Cool Pet - Koromaru, the Strength Social Link

Good lord! What is that huge list, and why is it all under The Power of Friendship? It's like two Persona 3 trope pages for the price of one! Removing, since I can only assume it was some crazy editing error.

• When the characters first see the school transform into Tartarus, the way it changes is similar to the way the city changes in Dark City.
• The portrait for the persona Lilith◊ appears to be a shoutout to Gozer◊ from Ghostbusters. The hairstyles are very similar, and the scale patterns covering Lilith bear a close resemblance to the skintight suit Gozer wore in her first appearance.
• At the beginning of "Operation Babe Hunt", the Protagonist has the option to say "Let's begin the operation.". Sound familiar?
• This even extends to other spinoffs of the Shin Megami Tensei series. Case in point - Cielo Mist
• The Bauer Bar - gives you 24 hours of energy!
• If Aigis is equipped with explosives, she'll occasionally say "Hasta la vista!" during a physical attack. Remind you of any other Ridiculously Human Robot?
• Checking the "handheld game" key item gives it's description as "The "Odin Cube" disc is already in the tray."
• A "game panic" can be found in the mall and inside of that "print club" both are owned by Atlus.
• Mad Alchemist Mr.Edogawa uses a rat called Algernon as a test subject.
• The entire concept of the Persona (plus the Tarot Motifs) is extremely similar to the Stands of Jojos Bizarre Adventure; a concept that was used in part 3 of the series.
• The Hermit Social Link involves an MMORPG called "Innocent Sin", the person you make the link with uses the character name "Maya", and if you say you get the joke, she jokes she'll rely on you for protection from Jokers. Persona 2: now receiving the Digimon Tamers treatment!
  • The 'Jokers' comment is also a reference to the Persona 2 titles; the antagonist at the start of Innocent Sin and Eternal Punishment are named Joker-sama/Master Joker, and JOKER, respectively.
• Aigis remarks that maid outfits are very comfortable, and easy to wear!
• One of the female protagonist's weapons looks like a double laser naginata. It looks very similar to the weapon wielded by Chie's initial Persona, Tomoe
• The elemental amp bracers share names with the avatars of the Embryon that have an affinity for the same element.
• In P 3 P, one of the female protagonist's joke weapons is a Beam Naginata
• If you watch the TV in the lounge, you'll hear an interview with a blonde haired girl who used to be a member of the Idol Singer group MUSES... now who could that be?
  • That entire segment on the television is a nod to the other games in the series. Who's Who basically is one of the only bits of "proof" that imply that the early Persona games and the later two are in the same universe. The other characters that appear in that show are as follows: Masao Inaba, Kei Nanjo, Yuka Ayase, Eriko Kirishima, Maki Sonomura, Reiji Kido, Baofu, Eikichi Mishina, Katsuya Suou, and Tatsuya Suou.

Some of those are valid, some are more iffy (I mean, "let's begin the operation" is a pretty standard phrase), but that's just way, way too much. Let's just say "such things as" the drinks, and leave it at that.

• Useless Useful Spell - Looking at you, Hama and Mudo; all bosses and sub-bosses will null Light and Dark (and be generally highly resistant to most status effects, too), no exceptions. Handy for the occasional Demonic Spider, but useless in boss fights. This gave birth to the meme " MUDO NEVER HITS ".
  • If you have a persona specifically geared towards using them, including Mudo or Hama Boost, they're not that bad. Indeed, the Bonus Dungeon has level 85-99 monsters that are mostly WEAK to Mudo and Hama, making leveling up there extremely easy. The highest level Hama and Mudo skills also have an extremely high chance of insta-killing even monsters without weaknesses to them, which does speed along the usual grinding.
    • Least the status effect spells are alot more useful in this game then it is in the other Shin Megami Tensei Games (I'm looking at YOU Digital Devil Saga and Nocturne.)
    • This is actually subverted a bit in that each party member can only be hit with a single bad status effect at a time. If a character is poisoned, they cannot be charmed, and so on. Particularly useful against attacks like Night Queen and Marin Karin.
  • Dekaja and Dekunda. Normally, these debuff/de-debuff spells are useful for removing multiple buffs/debuffs at once. However, in this game, they only last 3 turns. Made even more useless because there are no multi buff/debuff spells (like the insanely powerful "Debilitate" in some of the other games). Additionally, bosses almost never use them. Your better of just keeping a few Dekaja and Dekunda Gems instead of having the actual skill.

Useless Useful Spells are unambiguously useless, and there's way too much debate here about exactly which spells are useful and useless to keep it as a trope.

• Video Game Caring Potential - One of the aspects of the portable remake's heroine's route. She has S.Links with all of the members of SEES and Ryoji. Seeing them develop personally and becomes very close to her outside of the plot makes them even more endearing. Case in point: does anybody who has finished the original/FES have the heart to let Shinjiro die when you know you can save him?!?

Die, Shinji, you don't belong in this world. As for the trope itself, it may count for this game, but why single Shinjiro out? Helping Maiko with her parents' divorse seems like a more straightforward example. As it is, it reads like a Crowning Moment Of Heartwarming that's been shoehorned into another trope name.

(On second thought, I might rephrase and add this one back. The main issue now is that it makes it sound like the trope only applies to P3P, and especially to Shinjiro, when the original game was already filled with helping people out: Maiko, Akinari and the bookstore owners particularly come to mind.)

(Added and done.)

• What Do You Mean, It's Not Symbolic? - Persona 3 Portable's Opening, which is seemingly loaded with symbolism and hidden meanings
  • Not to mention that the female protagonist's hair bands clearly spell "XXII"—one of the possible numbers of The Fool (the protagonist's arcana) in a tarot deck.

Why just P3P? There's the crucifixion poses, the original opening, the phrase "memento mori", the tarot cards, the evoker headshots, the Full Moon shadows ...but since listing anything has the potential to attract "no, it really is meaningful" natter, I'm just leaving it off. Might add back later, if I can think of a way to phrase it as comprehensively and neutrally as possible.

• White-Haired Pretty Boy - Akihiko is a subversion, as is Takaya.

That's Not A Subversion, it's an aversion, which doesn't need to be listed.

• The Woobie - EVERY player character, but mainly Aigis.
  • Aegis doesn't even begin to compare to Shinjiro. He seems like the last person who would fit this trope, however in the Female's Protagonist's route of Persona 3 Portable, Shinjiro gets probably the worst end out of every one of the main characters. The Female Protagonist, the girl that Shinjiro loves who had helped him to develop so much and was ultimately the reason he lived dies (made worse on a New Game+, where protagonist can choose to spend her last moments with him), so not only is Shinjiro denied a happy life with her after he gets out of the hospital but then we have to take into account the fact he will die pretty soon too due to the drugs he's been taking. So yeah, Shinjiro's life sucks.
  • Akihiko may also count. His parents are dead, you then find out his younger sister died in a fire and he never forgave himself for not being able to save her. He then tells himself he never wants to be powerless again, only to find his best friend is slowly killing himself through suppressant drugs and then finds himself powerless to save him from Taking the Bullet for Ken. Good god, that guy needs a hug.

Die, Shinjiro, die, die! Mwuahahaha! More Shinji gushing and natter in general, and since The Woobie is a subjective trope that can apply to any favorite character, I'm just leaving it off. The Woobie page itself already has several P3 characters.

• Yank the Dog's Chain - Congratulations, you managed to survive a deadly bullet from a powerful magnum through the generosity of a girl who actually cares about you! Better yet, you don't need that loathsome Persona anymore, as the Dark Hour is gone thanks again to that lovely lady. Oh wait, when you finally get out of the hospital, she dies either moments before you get to her or in your arms. Also, you're not gonna live that much longer thanks to those suppressant drugs, and you won't even get to see her in the afterlife because she's now the Great Seal for Eternity. Sweet Nyx, Persona 3 Portable confirms that Atlus loves to screw over Shinjiro.

More Shinji gushing. If it's in the game at all, surely there's a more general, story-relevant example of the trope than one troper's speculation about how one supporting character might feel after the game ended?

(I did give Shinji a little bit of love, though - he's now included under Ensemble Dark Horse. I can't believe he wasn't there before, he's like this game's ED mascot. :))

• Yet Another Stupid Death - After spending hours of grinding you will lose in a battle due to being ambush by the enemy, hits you with your weakness thats cause you to lose your turn, hit you again with another weakness and lose another turn as well. This goes on and on with your teammate not healing you, even with the AI set to Heal.

That's not really what that trope means.

• You Killed My Father - Subverted - Ikutsuki and Shinjiro both get killed by people with no ties to them, even though Ken does attempt to kill Shinjiro in revenge for his mother's death.
  • Interesting enough, since the protagonist's parents were killed during the Dark Hour on Moonlight Bridge where Aigis pursued Death aka Ryoji, it's possible they were killed either by Ryoji's rampage or as collateral damage from the fight between him and Aigis. Thankfully the main character holds no grudges toward either of them as a Heroic Mime

Both of those points are Not A Subversion, they're just not this trope at all. Ironically, the one character who might qualify, Yukari (who enrolled at Gekkuokon and joined SEES to uncover the truth about what happened to her dad) isn't mentioned. Might add it back with her later.

(It's back now.)

• The Scrappy: Ken Amada Shinjiro died to protect him and majority of the fanbase were unable to forgive him. The fact that he isn't that good in combat doesn't help him either.
  • Yukari takes up the reigns in "The Answer."
  • You know, it's obvious that Fuuka shouldn't be here. After all, if wasn't for her, you'd never know that 'There are. FOUR! ENEMIES! LEFT!'
    • She's significantly less annoying in the Japanese dub, if only because she's much more soft-spoken.

I really don't like Ken either, but there's too much natter about who's The Scrappy for any one character to claim the mantle. Ken does have as many fans as haters, as do the other potential scrappies listed.