Discussion TabletopGame / MagiNation

"My biggest fault with the show is that they didn't explore the world of the Moonlands and its history"

The problem that a lot of us old-timers have with it is just the ridiculous ways they changed the history that WAS explored.

From what I understand, the show wasn't really that popular anyway, so you're not going to see a ton of people here adding entries for it. Most of us that know the series know it from the TCG/Mini-Novel roots. I'd say do what you can, but the series in general just Needs More Love.

(Also, maybe learn to nest replies on the discussion page, instead of posting three separate topics for the same conversation.)

If I am writing an AU fanfiction that is primarily based off of the card game and th GBC game, but with elements from the show, how can I ensure that no one will be offended? What concepts should I stay away from, and which ones can I include? I will be using the show, no matter what people say, but how far can the fanbase be pushed in this regard? What is the fan interpretation of the characters, like Gorgor, Strag, Evu, etc, in terms of personality? Would everyone blow up if in the fic, Eidon was Orwin's son, or if Tryn and Barak were married with kids? What is the acceptable limit here?

In my opinion, a fanfic, even an AU one, takes the original story and either does a simple "What If?" scenario (changing a singular, pivotal action in the canon), predicts what might happen after the original series is complete, takes characters from one universe and plugs them into another, creates a perfectly reasonable new point of view from a supporting character during the original canon, or simply goes to explore details on which the original canon didn't elaborate.

The thing about fanfiction is that it's just that: fanfiction. Unless your fanfic is intentionally offensive, most people won't think it's necessarily "offensive." You can do whatever you want, to an extent... as long as you can have sufficient reason for the change from canon. For instance, Gorgor is generally considered to be kind of brainless or stupid... definitely a meat-head... but you could say he's faking it, and write a backstory explaining some kind of traumatic life experience that made him do that. Flimsy, yes, but it gets the point across.

None of your other questions are really offensive-sounding as long as they are handled well in the fiction...

However, the TV series cannot be considered fanfiction, because it is the new authors' new canon. This new canon has replaced the old. It isn't fan-generated, nor is it considered fiction. It is the new author truth. And that goes too far for us fans of the original. That is why it's offensive.

Your reply is a bit too general. Aside from it being different, what areas specifically are considered more offensive than others?

As Strag is set to be one of my main characters, what is his personality generally agreed upon? As the moonlanders are not human, but alien, how alien is too alien? Would anyone object if summoning dream creatures was physically draining, and too much summoning left a magi comatose?

"Aside from being different"? The fact that it's different is the offensive part. The TV series is 90% it's own thing with borrowed names and plot devices. As I said on the main page, change all of the character/relic/dream creature names, and you've pretty much got a completely different thing here.

Characters have been replaced in a lot of strange ways:

- Tony's character is not even the same anymore. The sole, main character of the video game (not necessarily the TCG) is barely even close to the character we know. The story about how he came to the Moonlands isn't the same. His physical appearance and personality has changed quite a bit.

- Eidon, a middle-aged man, and a mentor to Tony, has been replaced with Edyn, a pre-teen to teenage girl. Some also say that Edyn is supposed to be a replacement for Tryn.

- Orwin, in the original series, was rather cold toward Tony and quickly fell comatose due to a Shadow Geyser. In fact, a great deal of the plot comes from Orwin being in a coma, and Tony offering to find the only thing that can cure him: a Cloud Frond. In the TV series, his personality appears more as the original Eidon. Also, to my knowledge, there is no point in which Orwin falls ill like in the game, which influences the plot as well.

- Gia... and Evu... where do I start? Evu, in the original, was an elderly man in Vash Naroom who was slightly crazy, but comedic in his delivery. Gia was a harsh, yet wise woman that lived in the Weave. Eidon took care of her and studied under her. Obviously, in the new series, since Eidon doesn't exist, that whole subplot is lost. More dramatically, though, Gia has basically been renamed Evu, and the Evu we knew was no more.

- Korg remains slightly unchanged, but, for some reason, Zet's name is changed to "Zed" and "Zed" is not nearly as cunning or mischievous as he was in the TCG/Videogame (although he was mostly just prideful).

- There was a distinct separation between Shadow Magi and Core Magi. Shadow Magi, by the original definition, were magi that were affiliated with a specific region and were then corrupted by the power of the Core. Core Magi were magi that were basically just born, raised, and lived in the Core, and had devoted their lives to corrupting all they could.

- Agram's look has been watered down GREATLY. He now appears as a gaunt palish-purplish man with long hair who is a sort of laughable, generic "bad guy." In the original, he was much more frightening, having bandages over his eyes, but still able to see, a great suit of armor, and spoke with great power. He was a manipulator and a deceiver, and had a great presence of awe about him. Even Core Magi were afraid of him and he was greatly revered even though he was evil. Also, in the TV series, apparently, Agram is related to members of the Underneath, so they aren't happy when they find out Tony and his friends (primarily Strag) are fighting against him... which, when compared to the original series, it's obvious that that plot point was only created to create tension for that particular episode.

- The abolition of Ring Smiths and the whole forging of rings is another problem for us. Yeah, in the new series, Tony gets a ring and that's how it sparks his journey to the Moonlands, but the ability to summon dream creatures from raw Animite was originally impossible... which is why the ring smiths were needed in the first place.

- Jaela and Ora are never mentioned (to my knowledge), the former being the Queen of Arderial and the latter being her shield maiden.

- Morag is never mentioned, and was a key Core Magi in the original plot. In fact, he was the one that planted all of the Shadow Geysers. Agadon, who is a key magi in the history of the Moonlands and Agram's original imprisonment, is never mentioned, to my knowledge. Warranda, a magi who encounters Tony several times and offers the most damaging emotional attacks against Tony, has been replaced (I'm assuming) with Warrador who does very little compared to her counterpart.

- The Core Glyph/Stones (or, in the TV series, Dreamstones) and their abilities/quantities are much, much different.

- The plot as a whole is different. In the original, Tony reluctantly accepts his role as savior of the Moonlands and really just wants to find his way back home. He does this simply because he's the only non-Core magi who can even enter Shadow Geysers, and he hopes if he sticks with it long enough, he'll find a way home. Morag, Warranda, and Agram play a great part in making Tony have to choose between being a savior and simply going home... In fact, Agram gives Tony that option at the final fight... an option that the player can freely choose. If Tony decides to forgo the final fight and go home, his last line in the game is simply disgust that the kids on his block don't like him, showing us that Tony hasn't changed, and that the experience meant very little to him. The original storyline is supposed to show a progression of Tony's character from passive and cynical to heroic. This whole idea is lost in the TV series.

And this only lists the more obvious and damaging differences. We aren't going to go into all the nitpicky differences that do even more to change the original story.

As for your second question regarding summoning too many dream creatures... I don't know if that was ever expressed in the original. While it is physically draining to summon dream creatures, I think it's understood that if a magi has a dream creature active, then that particular magi is safe from passing out regardless of the energy level, as the dream creature is more an extension of the magi instead of a separate being. Changing this does change aspects of the Magi-Dream Creature relationship, but I don't think that's a great point of contention.

I just realized something... You said, "As Strag is set to be one of MY main characters..." (emphasis added)

Your questions did come across to me as a little weird, but now I think it makes sense... you're asking these questions because you're going to write your own fanfiction, aren't you? With Strag as your main character. And you want to make sure it's accepted positively.

I really don't know why anything matters as far as the original source material goes, then. You are free to write whatever you want, however you want to. I won't sit here and teach you how to write a fanfic. Just do it.

I honestly thought you were genuinely inquisitive about why the TV series is looked at negatively... y'know, since that was you original question way back.

I am inquisitive to why it's looked at negatively. Call me absolutely insane, but the whole "They changed it now its different" simply doesn't make sense to me. I am having a very hard time comprehending this point of view, and am actually very curious as to the nitpicky things.

And yes, I am writing a fanfic, but, as I don't own a copy of the game, and I can't find any good playthroughs, I have to rely on either the show, or the flavour text of the cards, and thus have to try to figure out when too much is too much. As a result, I'll take any source that I can to ensure that it is written well. My main source is a site called Blue Furok, and some of the characterization I get from there.

One of your points about Agram- In the original, yes his eyes are covered by bandages, but his flavour text says that he has no eyes.

One of the probably controversial points, though, and one of the main reasons that I am trying to test the waters, is that, because of the TV show, I'd like to include Edyn, but with a vastly different origin (named after Eidon, daughter of Barak and Tryn, one of the biggest troublemakers in Naroom), and would like to know what changes I could make so that she isn't just a cheap knockoff. Also- In the card game, Chur is a girl, and not a big player, as far as I know, but in the show, Chur is probably the most competent of the villians and a guy. I'm not sure which is likely to have a smaller reaction, though.

And don't worry, I don't need to be taught how to write fanfiction, I've written several before. This is the first time that I'm writing for a divided fanbase, though, and need a lot of information. From what I can see, most of the Magi Nation fanfiction is small, and poorly written. The stuff on Blue Furok, is, as far as I am aware, the exception, rather than the rule. This means that there's kind of a lot of pressure to write something that will get people coming back, that takes the world, expands it, without changing it at all. For example, my point about Summoning being draining, to Summon would take a lot of energy, and focus. If too many creatures were summoned, when it came time for a magi to sleep, they would sleep much more deeply at first, only finding it easier as time passed and they learned to better manage their energy. A case of Magic A is Magic A, and Equivalent exchange. If I'm going to be bothered to write a good fanfiction, I have to make sure that the world is well thought out, detailed, and stays true to the spirit of te oirginal, without becoming too original.

One more question- Would everyone hate it if using raw animite was reserved specifically for Shadow (Not core!) Magi, and a direct result of their contamination?

As for the TV show, as much as I like it, you really only want to watch it once for the plot lines, and then only skim it to see what concepts they came up with that can be dragged away and forcibly moulded into a better form.

I understand, a bit, on where you're coming from. However, I don't consider this to be a case of They Changed It, Now It Sucks!. It's one thing if they just decided Tony Jones would have black hair and be a track star in high school, but kept everything else the same. In that case, yeah, I would claim people were upset just because it changed.

However, there is very little in the TV series that even remotely builds from the original series. We're not angry that something changed. We're angry that the original series as a whole has now become obsolete and replaced with something shallow and aimed at a demographic that has very little if any idea about the original.

I visit Blue Furok every once in a while. I haven't gone through the whole site, yet, but I like what I see so far, and it's admirable that they are trying to keep things alive, in a sense.

So the real questions come down to how you should choose your audience. I would look at the TV Series Magi-Nation as its own, standalone story, and the videogame/TCG as its own, standalone story. That will help in understanding how your audience will react to different things.

Specifically speaking, Edyn might be difficult to write in. Being an original TV character, the only information you have to work with is what the TV series gives on her. Looking at it the way I stated earlier, from an original series fan, the inclusion of Edyn shouldn't be a problem as long as her existence can be justified. Her personality can be whatever you want it to be, since she didn't exist in the original series. This shouldn't offend any TV series fans either... at least, until you change her origin, like you said you would do. That would cause negativity from the TV series fans... unless, you can write a very good reason why her origin was "hidden" or why there is the discrepancy between the TV series and your fic.

If you are looking at Blue Furok, and the community there, you may want to try writing a fiction based off of the original series... although, you did say that this would be difficult since you don't know the original series. A basic overview of the plot can be found here, and browsing through the Magi-Nation wikia site can help give you information.

The ability to summon Dream Creatures from raw animite is supposed to be impossible, regardless of who you are. Although, I will point out in Tony's case (in the video game) he was able to accidentally summon a Furok using a raw chunk of animite at the beginning of the game. I think the implication is, though, that he's The Chosen One. And even after that single point, Tony needs to forge rings in order to use the animite. So, unless you can give a very, very good reason as to why shadow magi suddenly have this ability, I wouldn't worry about it.

As far as your "summoning causes exhaustion" idea... I stand by what I said earlier... it's never been explicitly explored in any media. But in the TCG and the video game, a magi's energy could be zero, but as long as they had a creature in play, they could still act. We've never seen a "live" battle before, so for all we know, if a magi's energy is put to zero, they could simply get too tired to do anything, but still able to tell their creatures in play to attack. However, it should be noted that when a magi's energy is equal to zero, and they have no active creatures, they are assumed to die.

I kind of find the idea of a magi summoning, like, 30 Dream Creatures and then just passing out kind of funny, though.

As far as the original Agram is concerned... I had forgotten about his flavor text (I actually still have his Duel card), but still... he can still see even without eyes.

So, as my final note for this post: No matter how you write your fanfic, you're going to piss someone off. Since the fanbase is so cleanly divided, you're going to have to please one and piss off the other. There really isn't a way to reconcile the two plotlines unless you want to pull some cop-out combinations of Time Lords, different incarnations of characters, and a whole lot of retconning.

You do have to give the show creators SOME credit. They threw 90% of it out afterwards, but they did do their homework.

Like Raptyr, I was introduced to the series through the cartoon, and I enjoy it. That said, I understand how it feels to see something that you are a fan of completely and utterly destroyed. (The Last Airbender. Ugh!) What can be salvaged from the show? Most of it is cliche and wouldn't mesh, but are there certain elements worth saving?

What makes it so hard to summon a dream creature with a whole chunk of Animite? Does it consume too much energy? Do the Magi not have enough energy to summon with a whole chunk of Animite? (Note: I am not refuting the impossibility. I am trying to Justify it.)

I can't seem to find any videos past Morag capturing Tony, Gia, and Eidon. They leave Gia's house and that's it. Any ideas on where to find more info?

I think that the game was good, but even a diehard fan will admit that there are flaws in a series that do take away from the exprience. What in the game could be improved? I personally believe that the battle system could be updated slightly to make grinding less tedious. If they made a remake, I think that the DS/3DS would be the best system to use. The split screen especially would speed up battle time greatly. It's hard to put my idea into writing, but I'll try.

Bottom screen contains your party (dream creatures and Tony) as well as displaying your enemy. The top screen shows your attack cutscenes. There are no set turns, and battle speed depends on how fast you can input commands, as well as how fast the cutscenes can play. You may only select one action per party member, and their move cutscene must finish playing before you can select a new action. However, you can queue the actions of your other party members so that they can move as soon as the party member before them finishes their move. Cutscenes are short, taking only a few seconds, approximately the same speed as in the original game. Dream Creatures lose energy at a constant rate, when they are attacked, and when they perform a move, and energy continues to drain during cutscenes. The computer has a set queue speed, which increases the higher your opponent's level. The time your dream creatures remain summoned increase the higher their level, and your time between actions decreases the higher your level. Your options are Summon, Focus, Relic, and Spell (three of the four main card types, as well as the focus option from the original game).

I hope that makes sense. I discussed it with a family member for two hours and the above was what we thought would work. What do you think?

Tangle out.

I would point out that Edyn's personality actually does matter? Her self confidence, stubbornness, and pride are what makes her her. As well as her love for her all-but-stated-outright adoptive dad Orwin.

It would make total sense to have Tryn and Barak be her biological parents though.

I'm trying a similar approach to making Magi-Nation fanfic, though I'm using mostly the show's universe with some aspects of the cards/fiction added in. And trying to meld in stuff is kinda difficult. Mostly since the two universes have very different timelines.

In the cartoon, a human has been transported to the Moonlands from every other generation of one family line for approximately 3000 yrs to help avert disaster in the Moonlands, with the prophesied Final Dreamer being the last one in the line to need to come and do it. And seeing as Tony decides to stay in the Moonlands, he's really is the end of that.

Also in the show, the Moonlands have been inhabited for more than 4000 yrs. Orwin's narration tells us that there was a 1000 yr era of peace b4 Agram got sealed in the Core (3000yrs) and heavily implies that there was a nonpeacful period of time before that in which the moon was also inhabited. This kinda means that magi on the moon have been there and doing magic stuff for a much longer time period. And if the ring Spencer gave Tony in ep 1 is anything to go by, there was probably a period of time in the show's history where rings were needed to magine creatures and that they probably just became obsolete over time?

Which canon is yer fanfic based on mostly? B/c that might be helpful in coming up with names.

By the cartoon universe, we have the names of only three folks in Tony's family: Tony (short for Anthony), his grandfather Spencer, and his ancestor Sir Anthony. His paternal line would have names influenced from Viking, Roman, Japanese, and middle ages Europe places that had knights.

As for his mom, I can't help you with her background.

I'm in agreement with that. There was a great big storyline that went along with the card game, it deserves a page.

Sounds fun. The stories in the fiction were really good and should have their own page since, its kinda a different medium than cards.