Should Nanatsu no Taizai be an example on this page?
They have Humans, Giants, Fairies, Demons, Goddesses (who are essentially angels),and even the lesser races like vampires and beastmen are on here.
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No elves, dwarves, goblins or orcs? Because those are very much the main standard races, the others are just rounding it out.
Do you think we can have an analysis page that does what the old five races trope did. You know, dividing the races into categories based on their roles within the work. Because honestly the new trope page only describes what the standard races are, not how they are broadly use within stories.
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The second and third paragraphs already do some of that, but it could perhaps be expanded.
Five Races was renamed to Standard Fantasy Races per TRS
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If we're going to have the Fantasy Axis of Evil as an internal subtrope of the Five Races, shouldn't we include the Stout, Eldrich, Humanoid, Fallen, and Savage on this page? I feel like a newcomer will feel confused by its mention and wonder what it is.
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I suppose it might be best to mention them as evil variants within the descriptions of the main five groups. Just having a mention of it being a thing without actually describing what it's supposed to be isn't really very useful, that's true.
Edited by Theriocephalus
Is there a difference between fairy and high men? Because both of them are described as "the most magically/technologically advanced", and I feel like this may fall into The Same, but More Specific.
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I believe the distinction is in the roles they play in a setting.
The Fairy, besides being magical, are also very far removed from "mundane" life to the point of having trouble relating to other species and cultures — they're so steeped in magic, technology or whatever else that they're often very alien and strange to other factions. The sly, tricky sidhe of folklore and technologically advanced but frustratingly bizarre Starfish Aliens are good examples of this. They're not just powerful, they're strange.
The High Men's main shtick is that they're powerful, admirable and civilized. They're sometimes the ideal civilization or culture; sort of an "us, but better" faction. Sometimes they're arrogant or corrupt, but always in a familiar way — their main shtick is that they're the most advanced and civilized faction, for good and ill.
Another way to look at it is that the five races map reasonably well onto the Five-Man Band: the Fairy is the Smart Guy, whereas the High Man is the Leader.
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I've deleted the David Eddings Belgariad example; I believe it to be seriously shoehorned.
- David Eddings' The Belgariad has a double example, first, the Alorn kingdoms divide up into these (although they're all human): the Chereks are Stout, the Algars are High Men, the Drasnians are Mundane, the Rivans are Cute, and the Brotherhood of Sorcerers (not actually an Alorn kingdom, but it's the Alorns they work closest with) are Fairy.
- Meanwhile, among the other Kingdoms of the West: the Arends are Stout, the Sendars are Mundane, the Ulgos are Fairy, the Tolnedrans and Nyissans are more difficult to categorise, but the Tolnedrans could be considered High Men as the first people to develop the trappings of civilisation, and the Nyissans do fit the Cute model to an extent—they're militarily weak but their skills with poisons and drugs make them more dangerous than they initially appear.
The Alorn Kingdoms:
- The Chereks
- The Algars
- The Drasnians
- The Rivans.
There are only four, not five. That's the first strike against it being this trope. Needing to use "the Sorcerers" to make up five is the second, since they take pains to avoid identifying themselves with the Alorns any more than they do with any of the non-Alorn kingdoms.
- Matching the Chereks to "Stout" is a good fit.
- The Algars are not 'The High Men': "The most powerful, civilized and magically or technologically advanced race in the setting." They are not magical at all. They are not technologically advanced. They are not the most powerful, not even militarily, given that they are primarily light cavalry. There is no evidence in the books that they are "the most civilized" in either sense, — their culture is clan-based and they are nomadic herders, and at no point is Algaria held up as an shining example of civilization, not even by the other Alorns, and the rest of the Western Kingdoms mostly think of them as interesting, but barbarians.
- The Drasnians are not 'Mundane': "The least magical race, usually enjoys simple pleasures instead of adventuring. ... Usually the Jack-of-All-Trades of the races" given their propensity for being Intrepid Merchants and spies. That description better fits the Rivans.
- The Rivans are not 'Cute', by this definition: "They may seem weak, but through cleverness and inner strength they are able to come out on top. ... usually designed with a larger dose than usual of Fun Personified." They do not seem weak, and no one thinks they are. They are generally regarded by outsiders as solid and dull, to the point that Garion is astonished at the music and laughter he encounters in the Rivan glass shop. Even so, there is not a single Rivan in any of the books who could be considered to have "a larger dose than usual of Fun Personified."
So, of the four actual Alorn kingdoms, only one Cherek) maps cleanly to the type it was assigned in the example; one maps relatively cleanly to a type other than the one it was assigned (Riva to Mundane) and the other two don't map cleanly to any of the remaining three types. (There are no High Men, Fairies, or Cutes; Drasnia and Algar can't be placed.)
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Now, on to the second bullet:
"Meanwhile, among the other Kingdoms of the West: the Arends are Stout, the Sendars are Mundane, the Ulgos are Fairy, the Tolnedrans and Nyissans are more difficult to categorise, but the Tolnedrans could be considered High Men as the first people to develop the trappings of civilisation, and the Nyissans do fit the Cute model to an extent—they're militarily weak but their skills with poisons and drugs make them more dangerous than they initially appear. "
The Mimbrates are certainly Stout. ("Strong and tough, usually associated with hard physical work and masculinity ... Stouts can be quick to anger and often have a culture focused on strength, honor and martial values, and may share an uneasy peace with other peoples of the setting." Not so much the Asturians, though, and the Sendars certainly fit the criteria "strong and tough" at least as well as the Mimbrates do and fit the "usually associated with hard physical work" better, although they don't match the rest of it very well.
The Sendars are the Mundane. That's a good fit. Eddings himself said that he based them on "rural Englishmen".
The Ulgos are a fairly good match for Fairy. They are the most 'magical' race, being as they are in constant contact with the voice of their god, but considering that magic is limited to a few people, 'most magical" isn't a very high bar to clear. The reason I think this match works is the other part of the definition: "often depicted as so removed from the other races as to border on the alien or out of touch. ... and more ascetic or emotionally restrained"
The Tolnedrans are closest to The High Men but it's not a clean fit — they are the most "civilized" and the Tolnedran legions are accepted to be the most powerful military land-force in the West. But they not only aren't the most magically-advanced group, they don't believe in magic at all. Nor are they presented as being any more technologically-advanced than any other kingdom.
Calling the Nyissans the 'Cute' is stretching it. They are cunning and manipulative rather than clever, and they are not Fun Personified at all.
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Though not Races, there seems to be an archetypal similarity with the traditional stereotypes of the US Armed Forces. Perhaps just a byproduct of the 5 man band?
Army - Stout (Army corps of engineers, digging fox holes, piloting tanks) Marines - Highmen (every one is an officer) Air Force - Elves (fly boys, the most advanced tech) Navy - Mundane (I'm thinking of those Gene Kelly films) Coast Guard - Cute (The biggest stretch), they stay the closest to home, and IRL get the most walked over like in the recent pay reclamation scandal.
Do these have to be played PERFECTLY straight, or can we mix-and-match with the Fantasy Axis of Evil, or even modify the roles a bit?
Maybe I'm being a bit of an arse, because I do totally "feel" the dynamic this trope is trying to describe, but...
Are there ANY straight examples of this trope? Every example I read, especially from classic sources (Tolkein, Mythology, RP Gs) seems to have to make exceptions or pull out the pry bar to wedge a race into the right roles. I don't think the categories are well considered. Cute/Fairy have constant overlap, as do Mundane/Cute and Fairy/High.
Why is everything always so wonderful?
This is a Guild Wars 2 related Nitpick, but for the most part, the Asura in the core game's story are treated more as "Fairy" than "Cute" and the Sylvari are more "Cute" than "Fairy". I'd even go so far as to say the Heart of Thorns characters we get are exceptions rather than a new rule. I mean, Taimi is literally a child, and Caithe and Canach are both a lot older than most Sylvari. Really, it's the community that swaps the two—and that's probably the reason Heart of Thorns did it as well. Really the only argument for the Asura being the "Cute" is that they are cute and small visually. Similarly, the Sylvari seem to have been codified as the "Fairy" because they look like a faerie race...
Tl;DR: Asura should be Fairy, and Sylvari should be Cute
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"Not to be confused, of course, with the "five races" of our own world: European, African, Asian, Amerindian and mestizo (usually just called "Hispanic"). "
Is it just me, or does this seem kind of antiquated? Especially since it's phrased like it's a fact.
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Not to mention mestizo means someone of mixed-race... honestly that's really bad and needs to go.
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Not sure the Centaurs in Harry Potter can be considered High Men. They're violent, unstable, and the subject of prejudice of subjugation. Wizards (ie: the normals) don't idealise them or wish to be them. I'm not sure a High Men trope is possible in Harry Potter because a major theme is the wizarding community's arrogance. In-universe, wizards are passively considered the master race.
This trope very easily becomes "There are only [s]two[/s]five kinds of people."
Let me show you with a demonstration. Let's take some Mass Effect races: Reapers, Collectors, Geth, Krogan, and Vorcha.
Reapers are clearly the High Men. They're both physically Better Than You, and they believe that their ethics are better than the lives of entire civilizations.
Krogan are obviously the Mundanes. Everything they like (violence, mating, victory) the player probably also likes.
Collectors are Fey. They flutter about on fairy wings, taking people to their mysterious fairy kingdom, and putting people to "sleep" with little buzzing fairy dust equivalents.
Vorcha are Cute. They have an impractical appearance, and are comparatively harmless.
Geth are Stout. They're hard-working warrior robots.
The whole "High Man" category simply doesn't fit. Go through all the examples, it's difficult to put in what exactly "High Man" is, with most of them being a stretch.
I vote we change High Man to "Other", making it more in line with the page quote and trope namer with the Ents filling in "Other".
The "faeries" and the "fair folk" are pretty similar, and this is missing the "warrior race". Like Urgals or Dragonborn. That would make a bit more sense.
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implying that fairies and fair folk would be combined and Warriors added.
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what's with the "doesn't have elves at all (cough Morrowind)"? Morrowind and the elder scrolls series have three types of elves.
AAH!! I've soiled my tunic!! ...completely by choice...
Or, as I tend to explain it to people who aren't tropers: humans, stouts, feys, exemplars, and Other. (That last being a nod to the fact that even if there are exactly five, and the rest of them fit the categories without too much overlap, the fifth isn't always Cute.)
I think it's worth to mention that sometime orcs appear as pig beastmen.
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