^ I'm not sure whether there can be crosstalk of this type between this page (a genre of work) and Media Transmigration (something happening in a work regardless of genre). In fact, Next Life as a Fictional Character, which is a subtrope of Media Transmigration and is heavily associated with this genre (its Trope Namer is the Trope Codifier of this genre), was launched within the same month as this one, and no one ever complained about overlaps.
However, I do agree this trope needs refining (see the discussion I started below), so I may as well make a forum thread on this.
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra NovaThis stems from the legacy of a "villainess story" being a redemption story for the villainess. The variants are cases of someone else taking the active role in redeeming/rehabilitating the villainess character. Of course, this is muddled by those stories with unrepentant villainesses who continue to play dirty.
I recently heard that Nubian Satyress has been banned, so I'd rather raise this issue here myself.
I have no issue about this being a distinct subgenre, but I have some issue as to the "Reborn as" in the title. The issue is there are a few works in this genre that has no incarnation at all, with the meta-knowledge provided in other ways:
- Endo and Kobayashi Live! The Latest on Tsundere Villainess Lieselotte: Meta-knowledge known to the characters due to No Inner Fourth Wall.
- Prison Life is Easy for a Villainess: No reincarnation at all; the lead is simply Awesome by Analysis.
- Of Course Ill Claim Palimony: Meta-knowledge comes from a same-universe novel written by a member of a prophet race. No incarnation occurs afaik.
- May I Ask For One Final Thing: The "villainess" is not reincarnated and does not know the plot. The "original heroine" does.
- I Swear I Wont Bother You Again and Tearmoon Empire both involved Peggy Sue situations within the same universe.
But is Non-Indicative Name alone a reason for TRS? In addition, if it is, what would be a suitable name for it?
Edited by SamCurt Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova Hide / Show RepliesI agree. I've personally been calling it the "villainess genre", since that's the big thing they all have in common.
I've also heard it be called Otome Isekai or Shoujo Isekai, since the genre is primarily a shoot-off of the isekai genre just targeted at women and girls.
The "typical otome villainess" isn't a thing. There are almost no otome games with villainesses in the first place, much less ones who are disposable fiancees. It's a Dead Unicorn Trope.
Edited by Aly7 Hide / Show RepliesDo you understand what a Dead Unicorn is? The whole issue is because the Villainess is always described in these isekai stories as a "common occurence" in otome games... despite being barely present in REAL otome games. They exist, to be sure, but it's more of a one in a thousand sort of thing. Ask any of these authors to produce one otome game title with a Villainess in it, and I doubt they would be able to do so.
Even if it has become a thing now, it still mostlt only exist in the realm of these isekai stories. No otome game has started creating villainesses just because it was being written about. It's still a Dead Unicorn.
The trope page acknowledged that the story can also take place in a manga universe, so the Villainess is only half a Dead Unicorn: Villainess characters did and still do exist in shoujo manga and romance novels. However, in OTOME GAMES, they are almost non-existent.
Edited by ochasen Just a tea whiskYes, I understand what it means. Thank you for asking.
However, the Akuyaku Reijou is now an established character archetype. It doesn't matter that they weren't originally in the games the novels are based on. For this genre to work, you have to accept that it's a thing, even if it technically isn't.
That isn't to say you can't add a pothole to Dead Unicorn Trope if you want. Feel free to do so.
Edited: irrelevant to discussion; already addressed
Also, Beware as a Villainess is on this page where it's claimed to be MC reincarnating into an otome game, but MC actually goes into a novel so I'm not sure why that's on this page as an example. Like the novel is probably just a reverse harem novel but it's nowhere near an otome game and the webtoon never mentions otome games at all.
Edited by gubuchuI'm going to assume you haven't read the description yet, because both of those points are already addressed in it.
Beware of the Villainess' description on this page links to MC being reincarnated into an otome game, so that's still blatantly false. MC goes into a novel.
Edited by gubuchuOnce again, I'm going to assume you haven't fully read this trope's description.
EDIT: Wait, my mistake. I see the problem you're talking about. Somebody else added that in.
In the future, you CAN just edit that yourself, since it's incorrect.
Edited by NubianSatyressOK, thanks. I wasn't sure if I was allowed to edit the page, but I'll just do that in the future.
Also, I owe you a full apology. Apparently I was the one that made that mistake. It's funny because I don't even remember doing it, and I've actually read BTV, so I already knew it was a novel she was reborn into.
I don't know why or how I made that mistake, but I apologize for getting uppity with you when I was clearly in the wrong.
I would say I've learned my lesson, but I probably haven't. >_>;;;
That's okay, I can see that you already addressed the Dead Unicorn thing, so my addition was clearly unnecessary and I edited my comment for that. I'm new to TV Tropes so I didn't realize I could edit BTV.
So I also apologize for giving you attitude. My mistake!
Just as a curiosity, since a lot of Korean and Japanese works started as webnovels but then become manga/webtoons, would it be better to put the work into the webtoon or manga category as examples or just the original webnovel?
Thanks!
Edited by gubuchuRight now, "web novels" are a murky spot on the wiki. We usually just list them as "Light Novels" for simplicity.
Beyond that, unless the adaptation is so far removed from the original work that it's basically an entirely different story (see: ComicBook.Iron Man v. Film.Iron Man or Anime.Cowboy Bebop v. Series.Cowboy Bebop), we list under the original medium which it was published by.
Just as an update to avoid confusion: in August 2022, there are consensus to deprecate the LightNovel/ namespace and gradually move examples to the Literature namespace. As a result, on trope pages LN examples should be listed under Literature, unless it only occurs in an adaptation (or belongs to a trope that can only be played in certain media types).
I moved all Literature examples into the LN folder and renamed the LN folder to Literature. Over the next few months there may be edits associated with the move of work articles.
Scientia et Libertas | Per Aspera ad Astra Nova
I believe the section discussing variants such as the Heroine or Supporting Character being the POV character is superfluous. We already have that trope in Media Transmigration.
I apologize for attempting to change the page without discussing it first, but that's what I feel.
Media Transmigration already covers for characters who are not villainess.
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