While I'm not surprised the trope was changed from the Main trope database, I'm a little surprised it was changed to YMMV specifically. Whether a work is released half finished is definitely not a "trope," so to speak, but it's also... not really a matter of opinion.
Is it because the previous over the top changes to the page resulted in confusion over what qualifies something as a "beta?"
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
While I'm not surprised the trope was changed from the Main trope database, I'm a little surprised it was changed to YMMV specifically. Whether a work is released half finished is definitely not a "trope," so to speak, but it's also... not really a matter of opinion.
Is it because the previous over the top changes to the page resulted in confusion over what qualifies something as a "beta?"
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Previous Trope Repair Shop thread: Unclear Description
, started by BreadBull on Oct 1st 2018 at 7:33:10 AM
I think Pokémon GO should be added somewhere, but I am not sure what folder to put it under.
"A lot of BSD people see Linux as an Obvious Beta today."
All 3 of them?
Could we please stop adding Tales Of Vesperia as an example? The 360 version is one of the most glitch-free games I've played. Claiming that the 360 version is an Obvious Beta for the PS3 version is not only misusing this trope but also perpetuates conspiracy theories.
Similarly, could we please stop tweaking the Tales Of Graces example to include the conspiracy theory that Graces Wii was a beta for Graces F? Not only is this a misuse of the trope, the conspiracy theory is completely baseless as Tales Studio actually lost a ton of money because of the Wii version's glitches.
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It's hard to put something like that past Namco, though I wouldn't say these examples are exactly Betas (To G F is basically a enhanced Wii game on the PS 3), but it's generally true tales studio lost money on non-sony games.
PS 3 To V is similar to To S PS 2 in basically being an expanded game on a more popular system, though no idea how To V was on the other system.
I will mention one obvious beta: Tales of Xilla as it's obviously rushed for the anniverry date and the gameplay was sort of rough around the edges, all of which got fixed in the sequel.
It was discussed in this forum discussion and decided against.
(Avatar by Coffee)
- Kings Quest Mask Of Eternity was also an obvious beta.
There are entire subplots missing, it was going to be a much larger game. This has been admitted by the developers. I'm not sure if that counts as "obvious beta", but there you are.
mudshark: I don't expect Nate to make sense, really.
The trick is to make people who don't pay attention to the development process simply unaware that anything was removed. I've never played the game myself, so I ask: Without knowing, is it obvious stuff was removed? If not, then since it's pretty well complete, it doesn't qualify. If it is obvious, however, then it may have a bit more qualification for here, because even those who are unaware get the feeling of "Did I miss something?"
Edited by SamMax
It does count as shown by the problems listed in the Sierra help files. One problem included is not being able to put down an odd number of stones in the Hall of Justice, which should have been caught during play testing since it involved basic functions such as saving.
Star Ocean isn't actually that crash prone, most of it was inaccurate emulation. This also makes it run way too goddamn fast. I've never played the game though, so I dunno about the rest.
Edited by mariofan1000
I thought of something that may qualify, but I'll ask first: Does the original Rayman qualify? It literally did not get playtested before release, and was infamously Nintendo Hard as a result. However, if you didn't know that, you would assume that Ubisoft was being downright sadistic with the difficulty, thus why I ask if it qualifies here.
Edited by SamMax Hide / Show Replies
It's not an Obvious beta, so no.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Okay. I forgot the "Obvious" in Obvious Beta, so I'm sorry if I wound up irritating you as a result of me holding the Idiot Ball.
EDIT: Is it still okay to list it as a subversion, though? Normally a lack of playtesting would make one of these, but since it's still feels complete, I think it works as a subversion of the trope.
Edited by SamMax
Ravenous Sophovore
This trope was made objective after this TRS thread.
▲
Removed the following:
- The original Nintendo Entertainment system was often a beta. The toploader was released in the later years of the system's lifespan. The Angry Video Game Nerd even pointed out that the toploader played anything, even PAL-formatted games.
- The original Famicom was a top-loading system. The NES was only a front-loader because the video game industry in America was so dead in 1985 that Nintendo couldn't even remotely hint that they were releasing a video game system and expect to get it in stores. That's why they called it the Nintendo Entertainment System. The front-loading design was intended to look like a VCR.
- The Game Boy nowadays looks like a brick, whereas the Game Boy Pocket was a lot more portable, as was the Game Boy Color, although some consider the Game Boy Color to be a bit of a different format altogether.
- The Game Boy Advance. The original model released in 2001 practically was an Obvious Beta for the SP, which is considered the vastly superior model, some even said that was how the Game Boy Advance should have been in 2001. The Game Boy Advance SP featured a frontlit screen (Which was asked for in the game boy model for awhile), it can be toggled on and off, and, rechargeable batteries, which were built into the system. There was also a game boy Micro, but it wasn't as major of a change.
- The Nintendo DS also followed route. The original model shown at E3 was obviously a Beta, it looked far different than what hit markets in 2004. (Namely in that it didn't even have a stylus holder.) Then in around 2006, the DS Lite made the original model look like a beta. Brighter screen made the games look better, larger stylus for people with bigger hands, etc. D Si also made it a lot more like a PDA with access to D Siware, etc. The Nintendo 3 DS is expected to follow a similar route.
All of these appear to be working on the logic that the mere existence of an Updated Re-release inherently means that the previous version was an Obvious Beta. The trope is about what's wrong with this version, not what's right with a later one. The Game Boy example is the worst, I think.
I don't know much about the PSP or Wonder Swan, but I strongly suspect that those examples need to go for the same reason.
The same guy as all those other Andrusis. Except that one.
Is it just me, or does this page look like a Self Demonstrating Article?
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I lol'd.
And yes, I agree. The fact that most of the examples are for on-the-shelf games that are, well, not technically betas if they've made it to that point — and that some of them may even be popular or critically acclaimed — makes me uncomfortable... I get the point of the article, but it kinda seems like it's trying to start somethin'. "Naturally, the Obvious Beta skips the fourth and/or fifth stages to go straight to release." It's not really possible to prove that this happened with most of these games. It seems unnecessarily inflammatory.
"The model of the DS shown at E3 was obviously a beta" Well, yea, the point of E3 is to show off BETA versions. That model wasn't released, so I think it should be taken out. Does everybody agree?
In the GBA Sonic Genesis entry:
"According to a recent interview with a member of the porting team, the developers were forced into adapting the original game for the Sonic Advance engine, rather than just taking the original game's source code and rewriting it to work on the GBA's hardware."
Is there a link to this interview? I'd like to see that.
For the record, removed this from the Witcher:
- The original Witcher wasn't as bad as many other examples on this page. The translation from the original Polish to English was sloppy - the game was considered to be a niche product for a fantasy novel only really known in Poland at that time, so the international interest was a surprise and the localization rushed - the loading times could get bad with specific sets of hardware, some minor balancing issues and a lack of variety in the NPC models. No real Game-Breaking Bug. The release of the Enhanced Edition is an example for the developer's commitment to the product and its fanbase, not of an especially bad case of an Obvious Beta. And customers who had bought the original could download the Enhanced Edition patches for free which is far from the norm for an Updated Re-release.
Just wanna say, I'm thrilled to see all the work that went into writing this one up. Good job, guys.
Small, vicious
Mirrory plight? Go to jail.
"Pale Ebenezer thought it wrong to fight, but Roaring Bill (who killed him) thought it right." - Hillaire Belloc, The Pacifist
In Fallout 2 the car doesn't vanish. It was stolen and that's part of a quest. That bit should be removed.
What is this?
- Battletoads clearly did not have thorough play testing. Only the best and most stubborn players could possibly beat it. There is a bug in a later level where the 2nd player can not move, and it would be impossible for anyone playing multi-player to miss this bug.
Is it just me, or do some of the entries verge on "there are a few bugs in it, or some (non-essential) items weren't fully Dummied Out, therefore its an Obvious Beta"?
IMO, only showstopping bugs (reachable levels half-finished, failure to trigger victory condition, non-functional AI) count as an Obvious Beta, whereas poor game balance just makes a bad game.
Just a few examples:
- Time Shift's incomplete dummying out and disabling of the reverse function hardly qualifies for Obvious Beta Status.
- The Spelljammer example is just an example of Dummied Out, it makes no mention of bugs.
- Neverwinter Nights had its bugs, yes. But it was perfectly playable start to finish, and hardly qualifies as a beta.
"Removed the bugs section as it was entirely unsourced and poorly written"
Never mind.
Per TRS, the definition was expanded and this was made YMMV:
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=16775291590.91246900&page=2#comment-43
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass. Hide / Show Replies