Discussion: World War II
- And the German soldiers, especially on the Eastern Front, knew what was at stake if the Russians made it to their homes, especially considering what they had done on their advance East and the likely reponse. Several historians have suggested that the wisest course of action would have been for the Germans to surrender on the Western Front and throw everything to the East to keep the Russians out, but Hitler wouldn't hear of it until they were literally right outside the city. Those decisions doomed Eastern Europe and Germany to nearly a half-century of Warsaw Pact oppression.
- This actually might be a result of our "the West were unblemished" mode of thinking. Not 20 years ago the very same powers had defeated Germany and virtually raped it. Surely the Germans would've just as afraid of what the Americans and the Brits would do to them as the Commies.
- Actually, as I seem to remember, the Germans in fact did try to make peace with the western allies with the Soviets excluded. (This being near/at the very end of the war, by the way.) Anyway, the western allies rejected any surrender that did not include the Soviet Union, and really, how could they have accepted it? It'd be a betrayal of the Soviet Union.
- Again, Versailles was not nearly the rough deal most people assume it was (if anything, the post WWII settlement was even HARDED), and the Germans were in fact BEGGING for something like Versailles by the end as the Soviets poured in and in and in and in and general ravaged Eastern Germany and completely obliterated several centuries old German centers like Koningsburg (which is now Kalingrad for a reason). The Germans in fact often sought various arraingements with the Western Allies and when they had no other choice they would fight hellishly intense rearguard actions to cut their way West just to SURRENDER to the Western Allies rather than the Red Army. In short, they preferred to take their chances in the West with the same powers that defeated them in World War One than with the Soviets.
- This actually might be a result of our "the West were unblemished" mode of thinking. Not 20 years ago the very same powers had defeated Germany and virtually raped it. Surely the Germans would've just as afraid of what the Americans and the Brits would do to them as the Commies.
- And the German soldiers, especially on the Eastern Front, knew what was at stake if the Russians made it to their homes, especially considering what they had done on their advance East and the likely reponse. Several historians have suggested that the wisest course of action would have been for the Germans to surrender on the Western Front and throw everything to the East to keep the Russians out, but Hitler wouldn't hear of it until they were literally right outside the city. Those decisions doomed Eastern Europe and Germany to nearly a half-century of Warsaw Pact oppression.
Pretty much any deal with the West would probably have been preferable to one that would be imposed by the Soviets, given Wehrmacht and (even moreso) SS behaviour on the Eastern Front. In fact, the "Battle of the Bulge" was an attempt to force such a peace in the West (though it's doubtful that Germany would have been able to do more than just delay the inevitable, even just fighting on one front).
However, Churchill (amongst others) was very wary of any peace that would replicate the situation of WW 1, where a resurgent Germany could claim it hadn't REALLY been defeated, even if it had been able to hold off the Soviets.
The likely intention was to negotiate a peace treaty that WAS a total surrender, but on certain conditions that even the "absolute victory" determination of the Allies would be okay with. Things like "don't massacre/rape/etc. our citizens" or "USSR does not get to occupy Germany, at least not without other Allied forces in the exact same areas with the same authority" would have made a colossal difference.
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, started by Catbert on Aug 2nd 2013 at 3:57:34 PM
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