Discussion Main / CommieNazis

I can only pray that you are joking.

Nope! Fascism was essentially a socialist movement that 1) rejected internationalism in favor of Nationalism and 2) Rather than dismantling banks and firms, simply brought them into the power structure and would protect them from competitors so long as they supported socialist principles and the ruling party.

Mussolini himself was a member of the syndicalist branch of socialism, was the head of the teacher's union in Italy and editor of the Socialist Newspaper Avanti. Fascism itself refers to the fasces, a bundle of sticks with an axe-head that was used as a symbol by Italian trade unions. This is an intentional nod to syndicalism which is french for "Trade Union"

So no, he's not joking. In fact, he's entirely factually correct.

However, you are horribly misrepresenting the philosophies of Fascism and Communism. Fascism has its roots in anti-liberal philosophers of history in Russia (see Vekhi, especially the essays by Struve and Gershenzon) and the Italian Futurists. As such, it is a philosophy of rebirth through violence and destruction, a rebirth that is simultaneously a return to the past while a leap forward. Communism, however, is a philosophy of economic determinism that predicts the destruction of the bourgeoisie at the hands of the proletariat.

It is true, though, that the first true fascist political parties were socialist in origin, particularly the pre-WWI French fascist parties, which were mainly pro-worker's rights, anti-republican. However, they frequently found themselves allied with monarchist parties (as opposed to communist parties), largely owing to the fact that most communist parties were republican. Even the soviet system is a republican system (if one that could easily be subverted by a strong central authority), whereas the fascist states in Italy and Germany actively destroyed the republican systems that brought them to power. And indeed, if one reads V.I. Lenin's writings on republicanism, the soviet model is one that favors a semi-decentralized republic and he, in his political philosophy, is advancing a political structure that corrects republican problems with local republican organs.

So, no, on the level of ideology, Fascism and Communism are not related, at all.

Actually. Communism and nazism are related in real life. There are numerous nationalist socialist groups now and before WW 2 that where exactlt like that. Nazism is a combination of nationalism and socialism, There where national communist factions in real life.

Also, Fascism did not have any political program. Fascism is the Italian branch of National Socialism. National Socialism is the real historical movement. Hittlers Nazism, is slang for german faction of National socialism. The Futurist where onot natioanlists, they just allied with fascism. All the orginal national socialists where ex socialists.

Iron Ghost I endorse, Iron Ghost

National socialism is a brand of socialism as much as guinea pigs are a breed of pigs.

I have regularly come across right-wingers who say, "Of course the Nazis were socialists. Just look at the name, "National Socialist German Workers Party". I tend to respond, "So you believe that the Democratic People's Republic of Korea is a democracy. Just look at the name." One could say the same about the German Democratic Republic. I'm reminded of a bit from [1]

Republic Of Tyranny: Lampshaded in the following dialogue from "A Victory for Democracy":

Sir Humphrey: East Yemen, isn't that a democracy?

Sir Richard Wharton: Its full name is "The Peoples' Democratic Republic of East Yemen."

Sir Humphrey: Ah, I see, so it's a communist dictatorship.

"Without doubt it was a near fatal threat not only to Germany, but to all of occidental culture, when Jewry transformed the physical capacities of the East into a monstrous and armed Soviet military, aimed at Germany and all of Europe. The red commissar is defending his world by holding together his attack on us. We must destroy his system if we want to live free from danger in the future." -Joseph Goebbels, "The So-Called Russian Soul"

The Nazis may have professed to be "socialists", and it's true they were big on social traditions, but they were in no way Marxist socialists, which is the point of this trope. Nazis despised Bolsheviks, and seized power from the Weimar government specifically because they considered the alleged "November Criminals" too communist for their liking.

And North Korea has the word "Democratic" in its official name. Just saying.

They may not be the same, but labeling them Exact Opposites is an equally simplistic way of thinking. Neither believed in Free Market Capitalism or individual liberty.

Since we got rid of the Real Life section that's kind of irrelevent.

The creator of fascism, Mussolini, also said, "The socialists ask 'What is our program?' and I say, our program is to smash the heads of the socialists."

They may have both hated capitalism and had totalitarian leanings, but the point of fascism was to crush communism and replace it with an idealistic system where national culture was glorified instead of deconstructed.

Plus, although branches of communism descended from the Leninist line are authoritarian, Marxism itself is perfectly compatible with democracy. Many Orthodox Marxists criticized Lenin for his interpretations, however, we don't hear much about them today because they were all brutally murdered by the Nazis (hence this trope), leaving only Leninism left.

So, identifying them as political opposites is valid.

"Since we got rid of the Real Life section that's kind of irrelevant." The main description still spends a lot of time on how inherently unrealistic it's supposed to me. So I see my thoughts as still relevant.

If your defining Fascism by it's Naitonalism, the truth no actual implemented Socialist state has abandoned Nationalism.

Comunism's stated goal is to be the opposite of Capitalism. So nothing opposed to Capitalism can be the opposite of Communism.

My own views on things have changed since I started this thread. The Nazim Regime became very Capitalist regardless of what they originally said.

But still if you actually read Mussolini's "Doctrine of Fascism" there is a section called Rejection of Marxism but also one called Evolution from Socialism. In the Fascist vision of the Future section he says he is borrowing from Marx the same way Marx borrowed from the Utopian Socialists who preceded him.

Because I no know Reactionary objections of Capitalism exist, the whole "Opposite of Communism" sentence is outdates. Now I consider myself a Communist, but a lot of my issues with fellow Commies is how they unwittingly borrow from Reactionary objections to Capitalism.

Indirectly related: ironically, some Nazis themselves used this trope. They refered to some SA as "rosbeef section", as they were "brown outside, red inside" (seemingly Nazis, actually communists).

Leninists and Stalinists did the same thing: anybody who didn't toe the Marxist-Leninist party line was secretly a fascist, especially the anarchists in the Spanish Civil War.

And for America, for that matter, provided that they had some marketable skill (such as atomic or rocketry expertise) to offer. The rats fled the sinking ship in every direction.

Agreed. They've combined the symbols of both, plus the ideologies. (Ironically, they're actually partly supported by the West for being part of the "Russian Opposition".)