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Lavode Since: Jan, 2001
Aug 15th 2014 at 9:58:51 AM •••

Did we ever find out why the protagonist angsts about the things he's done? There's a pret-ty big difference between "woe is me, my sister was turned into a chair" and "woe is me, I turned my ex-girlfriend into a chair". I mean, he's trying to atone for it, but why does he regret doing it if he was monstrous enough to do it in the first place?

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desdendelle (Ten years in the joint)
Aug 15th 2014 at 11:25:11 AM •••

I think that people change. My God, What Have I Done? is a trope for a reason.

The voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground
Jordan Azor Ahai Since: Jan, 2001
Azor Ahai
Aug 17th 2010 at 11:24:20 AM •••

Was reading the page, seeing if any changes had been made since last edited. I don't quite agree with calling the protagonist a Complete Monster, since he does do some good things and sort of tries to atone.

I don't dispute that he crossed the Moral Event Horizon, but he's not completely unsympathetic the way a Complete Monster has to be.

Hodor Hide / Show Replies
Iaculus Since: May, 2010
Aug 17th 2010 at 2:04:24 PM •••

Time to cart out the ol' Complete Monster definition again.

  • The character must personally engage in a series of truly horrendous acts, and the story makes no attempt to gloss these over or present them in a positive light. Acts concealed behind a Villainy Discretion Shot or by a distant Mook don't count. The Complete Monster usually starts at the Moral Event Horizon and keeps on running, though nothing excludes him becoming one through Character Development.
  • The character must evoke fear, revulsion and/or hatred from the other characters in the story. If there are other villains around, they are afraid of/dislike this person, too — Even Evil Has Standards, after all. If the other characters in the story treat the character as a joke or don't take them seriously, they fail to qualify.
  • There is no adequate justification or Freudian Excuse to balance out the misdeeds.
  • The character must show no regret or remorse for their actions, however terrible. It's better if they obviously enjoy it, but complete lack of emotion or caring will suffice.
  • Most importantly, the character must have no chance of redemption without being considered a Karma Houdini. The only way the story could come to anything resembling a happy ending is if they die or are otherwise removed. A Heel Face Turn is out of the question, and nobody would believe it if it happened. There can be no Redemption Equals Death for this character, and no Fate Worse Than Death is too extreme.

Looks like Elethiomel doesn't quite make the grade, judging by the remorse he feels for his actions, though it's a close-run thing. Definite Moral Event Horizon crosser, though, no doubt about that.

What's precedent ever done for us?
Jordan Since: Jan, 2001
Aug 17th 2010 at 3:56:46 PM •••

Missed your reply earlier, looking at the definition

  • Engages in truly horrendous acts- definite check, although contrary to the description, the character does goodish things after the M E H
  • Evokes fear, etc.- ditto- not only does his living step-sister hate him, but even his allies don't always feel at ease with him
  • No adequate justification- that's a bit tougher- the action was a horrific M E H crossing, but the novel did suggest that the Zakalawe the protagonist impersonates was a pretty nasty dick to him, even if his victim certainly didn't deserve it.
  • No regret or remorse- as you noted, he does have remorse
  • No chance of redemption- probably true- from what I can tell, the novel implies that he's completely self-destructive and even if he does survive at the end of the novel, will likely have a bloody end

So, in short, I'd lean against keeping Complete Monster, but agree that it's a close call.

Hodor
Iaculus Since: May, 2010
Aug 17th 2010 at 5:10:17 PM •••

I'd say he definitely counts for 'no adequate justification'. There's no level of dickery that your foe can sink to that justifies turning your own girlfriend into a chair and her face into a pillow just to mess with his head.

Not saying that pushes him over into Complete Monster territory - there's still that pesky fourth bulletpoint - but it warranted mentioning anyway.

What's precedent ever done for us?
PhantomHoover Since: May, 2012
Nov 5th 2010 at 1:19:17 PM •••

Complete pedantry: the pillow wasn't made of Darckense's face, since the button was made of her navel.

Zernik Since: Jan, 2001
Mar 12th 2011 at 1:05:51 PM •••

Just a little Johnny-come-lately comment - it's not actually clear what the civil war in question was about in the first place, so we don't have any idea what justification he might have had. Zakalwe and Elethiomel clearly had some backstory, but it's pretty clear that, in earlier scenes, Elethiomel is not at the head of his faction (Clarifying edit: as in he's probably not responsible for the start of the war, but he is responsible for his army's victory or defeat).

Edited by Zernik
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