TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
Pulled the One Mario Limit example, because no one can seem to find any other character with that name, which is kind of required for the trope. Feel free to add it back if know of any.
Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
TURN OFF THAT LIGHT!
Should this page be split by seasons? The description is ridiculously long already and having that many images dropped in the middle of the text hurts the presentation further. The character sheet is already split and after A's the seasons become quite distinct from each other anyway. The tropes that are ubiquitous to the whole franchise can be kept on the disambiguation page to avoid duplicating too much.
Edited by Killomatic Regulated fun - the best kind! I don't make the rules, just enforce them with an iron fist.
this lurker feels it should be noted under 'bare handed blade block', that nanoha intentionally dispelled her barrier jacket before going for the block. the white devil indeed.
This seems odd but has anyone considered breaking up Nanoha into sections. We've got original Nanoha, Nanoha A's, Strikers, Sound Stages of all the seasons (including 4th wall breaking Megami Sound Stages), the Movie, and the two mangas in one page.
If we're going to put it on one page, is there way we can break it up into sections? Like, this happened in A's or this is only mentioned in the manga, etc? Some of the entries are blank with no notation of what season it comes from.
Edited by Nagumo
Obsolete Belkan Knight
With the release of The Movie on DVD and Blu-Ray more people will be able to watch it properly and is very commented everywhere recently so maybe we cant have a sub-section describing tropes provided by the movie, what do you think about it?
May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD! Hide / Show Replies
A Film / Nanoha type page for the top links would be more appropriate.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Removing bias to keep things as neutral as possible.
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I find it amusing that you accuse me of having a Nano/Fate bias but you didn't bother to remove the numerous statements about Nano/Fate being subject to extensive Fan Dumb (Which, by the way, are there because I put them there). Your intentions are obvious: in the name of "eliminating bias" you remove statements that place Yuunoha in a negative light while ignoring statements that do the same for Nano/Fate. It is you who is biased in favor of Yuunoha, not I in favor of Nano/Fate. On the contrary, my official stance on Nanoha shipping wars is to point and laugh at the idiots on both sides. Regardless of the state of Nanoha's love life or lack thereof however, there are two statements you've repeatedly edited out which are indisputably canon.
First, Yuuno has been Put on a Bus so thoroughly that he has not even been mentioned since SSX, not even in Vivio's list of the important people in her life; Lutecia and Carim are on that list, but Yuuno isn't for some reason. If Yuuno had a place in Nanoha's life, you'd think he would also have one in Vivio's life. The fact that he isn't mentioned means either that Yuuno doesn't have a significant place in Nanoha's life or that he is but it's being kept secret from Vivio for some reason. This is the reasoning behind "ViVid sank Yuunoha", and so far as I can see the logic holds up under scrutiny.
Second is the deletion of multiple references to "the Takamachi family". This is canon, plain and simple. Vivio has two mamas, Nanoha and Fate have traditional mom and dad roles, etc etc, you've heard these arguments before. This is all supported by canon. What isn't supported by canon is an explicit statement that "yes, they are in a romantic relationship together". However that's another story entirely, you don't have to have a romantic relationship to have a family dynamic between the characters (see some examples of Nakama for instance, especially the ones that have a Team Mom. Depending on how you look at them, Hayate and the Wolkenritter qualify for this sort of relationship). Therefore, the Nanoha/Fate/Vivio family unit is 100% canon, regardless of whether Nano/Fate is canon or not.
...dammit, now you've got me doing it.
Edited by Comartemis
Not siding with anyone in this argument, I have to admit that Comartemis got the facts about Yuuno's absence in ViVid (and Force) and the canonicity of the Takamachi family straight. :)
Can't we at least put the subjective tropes on the YMMV page rather than deleting 'em outright?
Assuming that these edits are going after the subjectives at all.
What's precedent ever done for us?
"Takamachi Family" is only mentioned on one audio sound stage(and never mentioned again after that). And on the same CD, it mentions Fate having her own place, and in Vivid, Fate's family is shown as being with Erio and Caro (the sound stage being a comiket one, and C Ds given out at cons aren't exactly stable ground for canon; see the sound stages where the characters advertised the Movie 1st, which were also given out at cons). Of course, if you take the notion that they are relatives, then living apart is understandable. The only verified ships in the show are Shiro/Momoko, Kyoya/Shinobu, Chrono/Amy, and Griffith/Lucino. Nothing else had been said, and if Nanoha and Fate were men, we wouldn't even be considering this. A lot of people have even said that ships aren't the point; Nekama and family relations is the point. So that's why I tried to edit things down.
There's also a sound stage where it's mentioned Yuuno has been teaching Vivio about the library and some magic. So while he may not appear in the yuri-fest that is Vivid, he's still there.
Lastly, if you want to make fun of both sides, go for it; but if you're puttin gin "fandumb" just to make fun of Nano Fate, that doesn't quite sit right with me. I don't believe that should have a place in the trope pages, but I suppose we can differ on it. And you are partially right, that perhaps the Nano Fate fandumb aspects should be removed as well. I don't know, because I wasn't part of the fandom back when the wars were raging. The only fans I see that make fun of works today, are ones promoting Nano Fate. If you can point out Yuunoha shippers acting dumb, please do so. Other than that, the argument as to whether to keep the fundumb aspects up, can go either way.
At any rate, I was trying to remove the subjective stuff; it's canon that no relations among the main cast has developed into any romantic manner. If you want to see things as subtext, that's subjective. For instance, the line "the argument has been resolved in favor of Nano Fate" is subjective. I changed it to: "the argument continues to rage" because that's more truthful. Nothing has been resolved relationship wise among the main cast. If I was truly Yuunoha, I would have promoted Yuuno, but I left several passages that hinted Nano Fate.
That's called being objective. If I see something that stretches far to the right, and I shift it back to the center, naturally you're going to see that as "you obviously favor the left more, because you moved it left!"
Edited by BP
"The Family" doesn't need to be mentioned by name repeatedly to be canon, the characters just need to act in a way that creates a dynamic; as I've said, Nanoha and Fate have the parental roles of a father and mother even if neither of them ever points this out for the viewers. Vivio acknowledges the dynamic and Fate's place in it every time she refers to having two mamas. "The Takamachi family" is putting a name to that dynamic, not insinuating a romantic connection. Until that dynamic ceases to exist you have no business editing it out on the grounds of "objectivity" because there is nothing subjective about it.
The Sound Stage that mentions Yuuno is something like 5 years out of date going by the in-universe timeline, and his role as Vivio's magic teacher has been supplanted by her schoolteachers and Nove. He doesn't appear because he has no place in Vivio's life. Get over it.
The Nano/Fate fandumb gets more of my hate specifically because it's so much more widespread than Yuunoha fandumb, though this has more to do with Nano/Fate having a larger fanbase devoted to it and not much to do with the pairing itself. If I had more examples of Yuunoha fans being retards I'd post those too, but at present the worst I have of them consists of what may or may not be trolling by people who may or may not actually be Yuunoha fans. On the other hand, I've heard at least one Nano/Fate fan insist that there are no Yuunoha fans, they're all just trolls trying to get a rise out of the Nano/Fate shippers.
Edited by Comartemis
And a family does not imply a romantic relationship (and interestingly enough, all of the families formed over the course of the series that have any real focus, didn't have romantic elements at all). Fate changed her name when she joined the Harlaown family; she has yet to add "Takamachi" to it. When Nanoha and Fate kiss or declare romantic love(or change names to match indicating some kind of marriage), I'll concede that the relationship has been resolved. That's the same criteria I apply to any characters, whether in this series or any others.
Yuuno doesn't appear because he has no place in Vivid. He's still the librarian and he's still a childhood friend of Nanoha. Just because he doesn't appear in the current stories, doesn't mean he's been abandoned. Arisa and Suzuka don't appear in Strikers at all, yet a sound stage shows Nanoha still keeps in touch with them, and visits with them. Sound stages also show that Nanoha does keep taking time to visit an spend time with him.
Just to be clear, I don't think this could indicate a Yuunoha relationship. Merely that Yuuno isn't as gone from people's lives as some might believe. And I think it's pretty damn disrespectful of Nanoha's character to believe that she's abandoned Yuuno, Arisa, or Suzuka. And note that some feel Arisa has romantic feelings for Nanoha, and has actually admitted loving Nanoha, although that can be dismissed as her being 9 years old and probably meant as a deep caring love for a friend. Still, that's more than Fate has done.
At any rate, I'll leave the fandumb edits to you, whether you wish them to stay or not. But as far as relationship issues go, nothing has been settled. The sound stages and manga don't conflict, so I see no reason to believe otherwise when Fate has said she has tried to distance herself to allow Nanoha and Vivio time to themselves, by taking long deep-space assignments. Obviously though, she's going to remain close to them and spend time with them when she's home; the very first chapter of Vivid, Vivio notes that this is the first time in a long time the three of them have bathed together.
I can understand the subtext and how people might draw those conclusions, but at this time, it's too ambiguous to decide anything. Nanoha could shack up with any other guy (or girl), and yet Fate could still be a non-romantic part of the Takamachi family.
As someone who puts no vested interest in shipping in general, this is a perfectly standard shipping war, with no proper Fan Dumb what so ever from my perspective. The natural cycle of such things is that one side has more solid evidence than the other, which then strives and searches for minor asides or exaggerates existing interaction in order to support their own views, which rely far more on projection than they'd like to admit. I've seen it occur in several fandoms: Buffy The Vampire Slayer, Avatar The Last Airbender and here.
When it occurs in Harem series, the bias of the viewer becomes more obvious as it's very nature is to pander to various audiences.
This is just a shipping war, and little else.
Now, the Fan Dumb, IMO, occurs when the exaggerated claims of one side become outright falsehoods or ironclad (IE: unable to listen to reason).
The Fate/Nanoha/Yuuno war is no different than the Zuko/Katara/Aang war or the various permutations within Buffy. It lacks the vehemence or outright falsehoods to count from what I've seen. There's not exactly a lot of anti-Fanart over at Deviantart, for instance.
Feel free to prove me wrong. I love being proven wrong.
But, yeah, I'm not really seeing Fandumb at this point. I'm an old, jaded fan at this point, which is very sad...
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
>"There's not exactly a lot of anti-Fanart over at Deviantart, for instance. "
That may have to do with the fact that this show doesn't even share 10% of the popularity of Buffy and Avatar in the west.
It's difficult to judge how much Fan Dumb is involved on the Yuunoha side because a lot of its "supporters" are simply trolls who like to make the fanbase rage (and I've seen them admitting it). So when you see someone being completely delusional about things on the Yuunoha side, you'll have to ask yourself if it's not just a troll.
That said, I've heard of Yuunoha fanart being rejected at danbooru (pretty much the biggest english database for jap. fanart) for the simple reason that it's Yuunoha fanart.
But all of that doesn't have anything to do with what's going on here.
The whole thing is ridiculously convoluted because the writers don't and won't make anything clear. At all. NanoFate far, far outweighs Yuunoha in terms of Ship Tease but fact is, the writers could easily decide "It never happened and won't ever." and be done with it, no matter the rage this will spark. It's pretty obvious that there will never be a clear statement and they'll probably continue the Ship Tease and shaft Yuuno, but not enough that he couldn't theoretically be pulled back from the depths of Demoted to Extra.
If we start listing all the "proof" and counter-proof of ships, it's just going to promote edit wars like it just did. People can think they're being objective and "not promoting either ship" all they want, but in the end it'll still be an edit war.
Edited by Excelion Murrl LustFatM
In all honesty, I only know of one Yuunoha "troll" who has since apologized for what he did and has long since returned to being neutral. That's it.
On the Nano Fate side, Yuunoha fanart has been rejected from Danbooru and multiple other sites wherever it's posted. Yuunoha Doujins that get translated and posted to places like Megaupload, promptly get reported to the site as pedophilia in order that they be taken down (and it works). Yuunoha fanfics get numerous Nano Fate supporters deriding them, asking such things as "Why do you have to split apart a perfectly normal couple like Nanoha and Fate? Do you hate lesbianism?"
I know a lot of nice Nano Fate people, who like their ship, but can accept other people's viewpoints. I honestly believe that it's only a minority of the Nano Fate fandom that are causing issues. The problem is that they have such an effect that they make the entire Nano Fate section look really childish.
At any rate, I tried to edit things to sound neutral for both sides, giving way to verifiability rather than opinion. I don't claim to be perfect, but welcome discussion on the issue on to how best to phrase things. I only cited Yuunoha things in this discussion, to show the absurdity of trying to claim a pairing; it's really true that you can claim any number of "facts" by citing series events to support your ship. But since nothing has been made for sure, it's pointless to do so, for Yuunoha, Nano Fate, or anything else. We only know of a few pairings: Shiro/Momoko, Kyoka/Shinobu, Chrono/Amy, and Griffith/Lucino. Those are the ones where both people are alive and together, that is. Everything else is subjective subtext.
Once you realize that Nanoha is all about family, rather than romantic love, it becomes clear.
Edited by BP
The Danbooru claim checks out from my research, Megaupload is harder to support. And the fanfiction thing is...honestly nothing special. I've seen worse.
"Once you realize that Nanoha is all about family, rather than romantic love, it becomes clear."
I thought I already made it clear that I don't really care about either attachments?
So I remain rather unconvinced.
Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
Sorry, wasn't referring to you in particular. Just that I've seen it said in many places that MGLN focuses on family attachments rather that romantic attachments. When viewed in that light, I understand why the mains won't ever be paired up. For instance, in season 1 we have:
Nanoha's relationship with her standard family unit (mother, father, siblings) Precia and Fate's not so happy family
In A's: Fate gets adopted by Lindy, learns to call her mother and Chrono brother Hayate's new family Chrono's father pops up, which helps drive his motivation (and Graham's as well).
In Strikers: Genya and Quinn adopted Subaru and Ginga Teana's desire to prove herself because of her brother Erio being taken from his family when it's discovered he's a clone, adopted by Fate Caro being kicked out of her family(tribe), and being adopted by Fate Nanoha adopting Vivio Lutecia doing what she does for her mother Even Jail and his "family" of cyborgs Of which some get adopted by Genya
Practically every major character has a motivation that stems from a family issue, and in the end, they generally up being adopted into a better family. That's continued in Force where Thoma was going to be a part of the Nakajima clan, and the Huckbein are a family as well.
Megaupload comes from a guy who uploads translated doujins. You'd have to ask him on animesuki, but whenever he uploads a Yuunoha doujin, there is someone who reports it as pedophilia to get it taken down.
As for forums, it's not just Danbooru, but other forums, too. I remember reading an /m/ thread on 4chan recently, that started with some pictures and dissolved into people calling other people trolls for posting Yuunoha pictures. There was one other Nanoha forum that had a similar issue, but I can't quite recall the name of it at the moment, where they had to institute a "no pictures showing pairings" rule simply because people accused anyone of posting a Yuunoha pic to be a troll.
Like I said, I only believe it's a few individuals at most, but we don't have enough good Nano Fate people speaking up against them.
Edit: Posted in wrong place. Ignore this.
Edited by Chimaera Well that was like playing a game of Whack-A-Mole where "mole" is defined as "Cthulhu". -Count Dorku
Obsolete Belkan Knight
My computer is a slow cheating pussy and i think i accidentally erased the WMG T-T, that or the system don't allow me to watch it, so anyone can go and check?
May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD! Hide / Show Replies
Nah, it didn't show anything for me, either, but the source was still there, so I made a null-edit and now it's back to normal, at least for me.
Does anyone else think the shout-outs are getting kind of ridiculous? I get the Fate/Sanger and Subaru/GaoGaiGar stuff but now we've got someone claiming Fate's Sonic Form is named for Sonic the Hedgehog (just for an example). Not everything you see is a Shout-Out just because it's vaguely similar to something else.
Edited by Comartemis Hide / Show Replies
but that's reason enough to erase the entire section?
May 29 2010 - May 29 2012 IT'S HERE! HAPPY 2nd WORFDAY SIGNUM!! Let's party xD!
It's not deleted. It's in the Trivia section.
Edited by MajinGojira Reviewing movies is a lot like Paleontology: The Evidence is there...but no one seems to agree upon it.
And that wasn't my doing anyways. Kudos to the guy who did though, it makes editing the page a bit easier now that there's less text to scroll through.
There's something I need to say here and it's been bothering me.
The Sound Stage that's listed as "Takamachi Family" that has Nanoha, Fate and Vivio. While it's true that it's called that and it has all three in it. Why doesn't anyone ever mention the other side of that disk? Which features Fate and Arf at Fate's home. Yes, that's right, Fate has her OWN home which is separate from Nanoha's. So, no, not the same relationship that people seem to really want.
I'm not saying that Nanoha and Fate are or are not in a relationship, it's obvious that they are, but the extent of it remains to be seen. "Romantic" Two-Girl Friendship, Best Friends, Heterosexual Life-Partners, any of those can be applied right now.
The part that's bothering me is when I look around on this site and see references to this particular Sound Stage like how it makes them an official romantic couple when it really doesn't.
After all, that Sound Stage is a Megami Sound Stage. Those are mostly 4th-Wall breaking, promotions and fanservice-based Sound Stage. While they have nice little tidbits of a character's life (like life at the Yagami household), this one doesn't really confirm anything.
Edited by Nanya Hide / Show Replies
Fate owns another house to make sure she and Nanoha can do naughty things without risking Vivio stumbling upon them, like it has happened in oh-so-many fanmade comic strips. She (Fate) is very shy, you know.
Fanficdom seems to like assuming that TSAB would push Nanoha and Fate to have lots of high-powered babies, thus being a threat to their presumed relationship and a pressure supporting Yuuno x Somebody. Buuut... their society has artificial insemination (trivial), cloning (Fate, Vivio, Zest, cyborgs), people tubes that aren't just artificial wombs but seem to bring someone to a desired physical age (Fate, Zest, Numbers), and genetic recombination (Numbers 1-4, being part Jail — in Uno's case, a female Jail.) Admittedly, some of the latter may be illegal, recently perfected in secret experiments, and/or Lost Logia-dependent.
So the need for conventional families is rather nil. At the minimal end, eugenicists may 'need' Fate and Nanoha to get pregnant, but all they need is a turkey baster and someone's sperm. (I'm not sure Yuuno's A-level is really what you want to be breeding with a natural S+ like Nanoha.) At the other extreme, they can cook up as many clones or combinations of Fate, Nanoha, Zest, and maybe Signum (if she manifests DNA) as they wish, with no one needing to get pregnant, and the only limit being how many loving adoptive homes they can find. Pressure to raise kids, not to have them.
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Is there a point to this being here and not on the WMG or JBM pages?
Mastermind Rational
Is there anyone around here who has played through The Battle of Aces and can help me write a summary of it for the Nanoha Wikia article?
Got a question regarding "Battle Of Aces". Does Reinforce Ein survive the ending?
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Concerning one item on the Trivia page, does this really count as a case of Word of Gay? As I understand it, Word of Gay refers to cases where the author or a creator in the know directly confirms that so-and-so is gay. The article cited here is not that at all. It has the main heroines' V As jokingly speculate about Nanoha's hypothetical future (speculation that is contradicted by the Vivid series), which hardly qualifies as "confirming" anything, it's just a couple of actors wondering about their characters' lives past canon.
The other part of the article doesn't even deal with sexuality at all. It simply confirms that Fate and Vivio manage to retain a close parental relationship roughly equivalent to that with any parent whose work keeps them away from home a lot of the time. This says absolutely nothing about Nanoha and Fate. There's simply nothing in the article to suggest a "confirmation".
Don't get me wrong, I think the series supports the relationship pretty well, but this really feels like shippers grasping at straws to make it "canon". Either a different article should be chosen or the trope should be removed in my opinion.