This is discussion archived from a time before the current discussion method was installed.
prescience: Nanoha doesn't really qualify as a Sergeant Rock. Badass, yes; "gets the job done", yes; "a bully and a blowhard", definitely not.
Keroko "Gratuitous German (And Dutch. The Wolkenritter's intelligent devices.)" Uhm... where's the Dutch? Much as I'd love them to, I've heard zero Dutch from the Wolkenritter's Devices. I'm putting this one down to the common confusion between the two languages.
Sunder the Gold: Modifying the "Reinforce battleship" reference comment to remove the comment and implication that Reinforce is an odd name whose only meaning is an allusion to another series. Reinforce may seem like an odd name for her in Season Two, before her nature as a Unison Device is made clear, but it seemed natural enough to me — she helps others, thus reinforcing them. Like how, when newcomers join you on the battlefield, it is an arrival of reinforcements. After learning that she is a Unison Device that merges with and empowers Mages, her name makes even more sense.
Janitor: www.jasms.de/anime/nanoha/folgen/08.jpg removed, as a dead link.
Jisu: Now that we know that the third season comes after they've graduated, we should really change the picture... maybe to their TSAB outfits?
Seth: If you like, that is one of the promotional series for series 3 though. But from what i gather Fate and Nanoha arent the leads in the new series. They play mentor for a new generation of mages. If we could find a group shot that contained them as well that would be perfect.
Andyzero: If you can find this one
without the text, that would be good.
Seth: Found it.Same Size as the other images
◊Slightly Larger
◊ And this one is of Nanoha and the new lead character
◊ Which works best?
Jisu: Personally, I like the one with Nanoha and Subaru, but the full-cast picture conveys the show spirit better.
Seth: I prefer the third one too.
Andyzero: "Bleached Underpants: Thankfully, none of them involving proto-Nanoha" Umm....actually....
Jisu: I think what they meant was that Nanoha didn't have H-scenes.
Sunder the Gold: Not in Triangle Hearts itself, no, but in the Lyrical Toybox sidestory (AU?) of Triangle Hearts, she's a magical girl opposing Dark Magical Boy Chrono. The two of them have an H-Scene after a Time Skip where both of them are teenagers. Or so I've gathered, having seen screencaptures of the deed in question.
Andyzero: Which Sound Stage has Fate "denying romantic feelings?" If you're going to cite this as evidence, be more specific. Apparently Yuuno's last role in the Sound Stages (set just after Vivio was kidnapped) has Yuuno commenting on how Nanoha needs Fate more than she needs him. No, I'm not sure which one it is, or I'd have mentioned it in the main article.
Fencedude: Changed "volumes" to "chapters" and corrected "seven" to "fourteen"
Dentaku: Chris X, what happened? Why did you delete so many examples? Most of them looked pretty okay to me. In any case, I put them back unless there is some explanation why they all have been removed.
Bob: Character tropes go to the Character Sheet now.
Dentaku:: Alright then, but someone had better announced this somehow.
A couple of the examples refer to a Xanatos Gambit but none is mentionied. Either it needs to be added back in, or the other two need to be altered.
Gloating Swine: It's on the character page. Listed as a Batman Gambit now. I don't think it fits though, since it doesn't require extra special foreknowledge or planning, Nanoha simply used sensible precautions in case her targets happened not to be where they were expected to be. Turns out they weren't, so it paid off.
On the current example used for Xanatos Gambit, there seems to be a misunderstanding. Graham did and could not arrange for Hayate to possess the Tome, since it is the Tome itself that chooses its hosts (by what criterion we are not shown).
Andyzero: I removed Jumped the Shark: "On both sides of the Pacific" Um...I've heard that Strikers DVD sales were overwhelming in Japan. You'll need to back it up with harder evidence before Complaining About Shows You Dont Like (or parts of shows you don't like) outside discussion.
Space Drake: I can link to at least one thread (or forum, anyway) where the Nanoha discussion during Strikers descended into nothing but whinging and gnashing of teeth; at least one fansub group dropped the show straight up because they did not like it. I can change it to "considered a JTS in America" if you really prefer, but a whole heck of a lot of U.S. fans had a decidedly negative reaction to Strikers. I also did note that it's a pretty hotly contested (but still fairly wide) opinion, as, well, demonstrated by this conversation :V
Andyzero: Forums always complain. You can also argue its the They Changed It, Now It Sucks! phenom.
Servbot: Especially the latest installment of anything. If we're calling every series that caused a group of people to loudly complain about the latest book/game/series/story arc/installment, we may as well list every franchise that had garnered a large amount of fans during the days of the Internet as having Jumped the Shark.
Space Drake: Except that it's more than just one forum. 4chan was negative, the blogs were generally negative, even the fanboys at Animesuki got pretty negative after a while. Not just one, but multiple groups dropped the show. And the complaints weren't just They Changed It, Now It Sucks! (though there was plenty of that too), there were substantive complaints about pacing, content (as I noted in the entry, a lot of people found Scarglietti's plan legitimately icky and unpleasant to watch) and a lot of criticism about animation quality. I'm pretty confident in saying that the generalized American reaction has been "the show jumped the shark." And despite good sales I'm reasonably sure that the Japanese popular and critical reaction was similar.
So, fundamentally, what's the barrier for jumping the shark? How many people have to vocally dislike the show before we can safely say "yeah, that show's pretty much over the hill"? Is it a show that's old enough that our parents watched it, and we are therefore allowed to hate it? If the barrier is "one person obsessively removes a reference to the show declining in quality" then we may as well remove the Jumped the Shark entry completely, since any show will have at least one person who defends it to the death.
Servbot: We wait. These things are always better seen in something like five years time. This is not unique, this occurs in anything that had garnered a lot of fans and received a sequel after garnering said fans. Mega Man X5 had the same reaction. And Suikoden 3. And every Final Fantasy after 6. And every Transformer after the first generation. Nanoha gained its massive fanbase after A's aired, thus, Strikers followed the usual pattern.
Also, there's the Rule Of Cautious Editing Judgement. As you have said, this is not a thought shared by a majority of the fandom and has a tendency to cause massive battles. All this will do is provoke Edit Wars, Natter, and Justifying Edits. No one wants that. At least, none of the regulars of this wiki. They sort of detract from what this wiki is meant to be (i.e. a collection of tropes).
Finally, a Jump the Shark moment is the time when people notice a sharp decline in the franchise from that point on. You're calling a franchise as having Jumped the Shark based solely on one installment alone even though said franchise is still running strong (currently getting one movie remake and a new sound stage, looking at the website) with a rabid fanbase. Jumping the gun a bit, aren't we?
Coolnut: And BTW, how is it "jumping the shark" in the U.S. when the ONLY people who viewed it in America are fansubbers and the torrenters? Heck, even the first season doesn't have a North American DVD release. Unless I'm missing something here...
Jisu: Yeah, it should be coming out in a few months. Also, part of the reason that The Triad dropped season three is because there were other options. They originally only picked up the show because it was a spinoff of Triangle Heart 3 Sweet Songs Forever, they were noticeably angry when it completely overshadowed said game and its previous installments, and they refused to be corrected when they were wrong. When Yesy picked up the third season and received praise from anime bloggers for using correct spellings, Triad went in rant mode, going as far as to say that because Gratuitous English is common in Japan — not even in Nanoha itself, just in Japan — that everybody should ignore "Raising Heart", the official name, because they came up with "Raging Heart" and it sounded cooler. The main reason, though, is that they didn't want to deal with something that had no connection to the Triangle Heart franchise anymore, and with Yesy stepping up to sub the third season and pleasing the purists to boot, The Triad decided that they would do what they wanted now, which was to complain about how pointless it was for series that they'd had for years being licensed because obviously nobody buys a show after it's been fansubbed.
InsaneInquisitor: Can we actually argue the case that Scaglietti's plot in A's is actually a very, very subtle reference to Neon Genesis Evangelion? Before you run away, consider the following points:
- Jail's plan to power the Saint's Cradle (weapon of doom) involved cloning the Sankt Kaiser. In the anime it is hinted that part of Jail's motivation stems partially from his love interest; partially due to his engineered desire. We are also led to assume that said love interest died. Vivio is not 'just' a clone of the Sankt Kaiser...she is Sankt Kaiser's powers (read:soul?) mixed with said love interest's DNA.
- Compare with Gendo Ikari who, in essence (though for a different outcome), does the same thing. Gendo's plan to power the Evangelion unit (weapon of doom) also involves the cloning of some 'supreme entity'. Gendo's motivation stems partially for recovering his love interest (Yui) in the short term; in the long term he wants to 'reunite' with her (read: desire). Yui Ikari, as we know, is established to be dead for good. Rei Ayanami is not 'just' a clone of Lilith...she is Lilith's soul mixed with Yui's DNA
dkellis: I wouldn't say it's common, but "create version 2 of someone I liked as a superweapon" is in quite a few anime and games, be it lover, parent, or child. I don't think the MSLN version is a reference to NGE, except that they both draw ideas from the same source. (I always thought Jail's cloning of the Sankt Kaiser Olivie Segbert was supposed to call back on Precia's cloning of Alicia, and that was some sort of Astro Boy thing gone horribly wrong.)
Ramidel: Removed Word of Gay, and the reason for this is threefold.
- 1: The actresses are not Word of God, unfortunately.
- 2: The director has not come out and canonized it. The example usually pointed at ("Fate-mama") isn't Word of Gay either; first, it's addressed in-show, and second, it means that Nanoha and Fate both act as Vivio's mother. Any relationship between them beyond friendship can't be stated from this.
- 3: Nobody except the actresses has ever given a straight answer on the subject.
im a girl can i still like dis it sez it has 2 pleese mn instd
