...Go check the page again. I removed the reference to Doomsday Clock in that entry when I added it back in. As I pointed out: it wasn't an invalid example of Reality Ensues just because it mentioned an officially licensed follow-up that you appear to dislike. Unless you think it was a misuse of the trope, there was absolutely no reason to delete it a second time.
If you believe that references to Doomsday Clock should be kept off the page, that's a completely separate discussion. But if you want my take on it:
References to that miniseries should probably be kept to a minimum, but only because it's a separate work from Watchmen, and they tell two different stories. But they shouldn't be "forbidden" by royal decree just because the original creators (and many fans) don't consider it canon. My personal feelings on Doomsday Clock notwithstanding, it's still an officially licensed follow-up, not a fanfic. Plenty of Star Wars fans don't consider The Force Awakens and The Last Jedi canon for personal reasons, but that's no reason for explicitly forbidding references to those films on Star Wars pages.
Edited by TheMightyHeptagon
Can we avoid language like "royal decree", it feels a little rude even if that might not be the intent? In the case of Star Wars, George Lucas himself has sold the work and license to Disney and has said that he considers it canon, doing much to get the original actors to reappear in those follow-ups. Nothing of like nature is there for Watchmen. And in any case, the follow-ups to Watchmen have not been as commercially successful as the original standalone so the majority of readers are unlikely to refer to or regard Watchmen through the lens of the follow-ups. That standalone is considered a classic (appearing in Time Magazine best books of the 20th Century) and in case of literature, follow-ups of originals are not troped on the same page especially when not done by the same writer. Like Jane Eyre had this book Wide Sargasso Sea as a follow-up by another writer and is considered a separate work.
To get back to the example at hand: The Reality Ensues doesn't fit even without this reference. To use your edit:
- Despite all the effort that the antagonist goes through to pull off his plan, it's heavily implied that it will still fail in the long run, and the world will be even worse off for it. Especially since Rorschach mails his journal—which details his investigation into the Comedian's death and the antagonist's involvement in it—to a magazine publisher. Turns out that it's not that easy for one man to completely change the course of history singlehandedly.
Firstly this is something that's "implied" which is itself YMMV-speak or close to it. And in-story, Rorschach sent the journal to a right-wing organ known for conspiracy crap, which is unlikely to be regarded by the Watchmen-universe as a source of record making it dubious that any claims published there would be taken seriously (especially since Rorschach's journal merely says Adrian is behind the Comedian's death and framing Manhattan for the cancer-infectees, with no information about the Squid attack that neither he nor Dan had any inkling of when they left for the Arctic)...so Reality Ensues should take that into consideration as well. Moore's stated intent for the final scene is already listed in Leaning on the Fourth Wall - "I leave it all in your hands" i.e. Moore is using that to address the reader and get them to think things through. There's nothing specifically said in the pages of the comic that Adrian's plan will fail, it's just that Adrian is always going to be burdened by the awful things he did and won't be sure if it was sufficient and so on. And in-page the historical reference is Truman dropping the Atomic Bombs, Truman's actions continue to be justified and accepted by the consensus of America's political and military class and a few historians too. So it's not a case that it's reality that this won't work either.
I'm sorry if you found my language "rude", but it was also incredibly rude of you to outright delete another troper's entry just because it mentioned a work that you don't like. You're not in any position to declare any and all references to another work "forbidden" on a page; that isn't your call to make.
Like I said: I agree that references to Doomsday Clock should be avoided on the page—but they should be avoided because they're generally off-topic and irrelevant, not because the miniseries isn't fit to be acknowledged at all.
Once again: regardless of your personal feelings on Doomsday Clock, it's still an officially licensed follow-up to Watchmen, and it makes sense to treat it as such. Its level of commercial and critical success doesn't change that fact, nor does the original author's disapproval of it. And for the record: Wide Sargasso Sea isn't an officially licensed follow-up to Jane Eyre; Jane Eyre is in the public domain, effectively making Wide Sargasso Sea a legally published fanfic.
But all of those issues are completely separate from the Reality Ensues example. To address that entry:
Yes, it's merely "implied" that Veidt's plan may have failed in the end. But when that implication was clearly intended by the author, it makes absolutely no sense to call it "YMMV-speak". It's true that those implications are ambiguous and open to interpretation, but that isn't the same thing as saying that they don't exist at all. The last pages also aren't the only part of the novel that imply that Veidt failed; Doctor Manhattan's line "Nothing ever ends" was clearly meant to hint at that possibility. And there's no reason that a plot point can't be an example of both Leaning on the Fourth Wall and Reality Ensues. Those tropes don't cancel each other out.
I genuinely have no idea what Truman and the atomic bomb have to do with anything. You appear to be rambling.
Edited by TheMightyHeptagon
Good point about "nothing ever ends", but that's clearly meant to illustrate Adrian Veidt's internal doubts about his actions and so on, and not a general indication of what could or could not happen. But if you mention that I guess it could work. Veidt thought he was ending one conflict or issue, but he has no control over a future that could bring other problems.
Honestly having read the series....doomsday clock isn’t actually that bad. It does honor the themes, actually clarified a few misconceptions (ie it reminds the audience that Rorschach WAS a lunatic) and does point out that Ozys plan was actually incredibly stupid.
Given that DC owns it they can do whatever they want.
My issue about this discussion is that tropes relating to Doomsday Clock or any other later works should... go on that page.
So putting a Reality Ensues and citing a different, later work is like putting a Reality Ensues example on The Phantom Menace because of something in The Last Jedi.
Such a cross-cutting entry could go on a Franchise.Watchmen page, but this is the page for the original run.
Edited by Larkmarn Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.
Now that Doomsday Clock is a thing...I was thinking we should officially make it clear, or rather make a pre-emptive strike to ensure that the DC Continuity and DC Rebirth version of Watchmen gets its own separate character page and so on.
Because Watchmen has been a standalone work for three decades. The so-called prequels were declared non-canon by Dave Gibbons (and of course by Moore).
I feel we should emblazon notes on the page and of the " % % " nature in the Edit Box to make sure that people continue to treat Watchmen as a standalone work on tvtropes. The justification is that it was a standalone work for some thirty real-world years, was treated and declared as such by both co-creators and unlike other graphic-novels is a cultural milestone and classic.
Edited by JulianLapostat
I notice quite a few references to Before Watchmen on the main Watchmen page. Both Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons insist that Watchmen alone is canon and there was a gap of twenty years where you had no expansion. Without getting into Flame Bait, I would argue that references to Watchmen on this page should refer to the book alone and not Before Watchmen for which there is a separate page.
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I have to agree. Regardless of what your opinion on Before Watchmen is, Moore and Gibbons created watchmen as a self-contained twelve issue series without any possible sequel/prequel in mind.Though as long as each mention of something in Before Watchmen adds a note that it is less than canon, it shouldn't be to big a problem.
A note that material from Before Watchmen is not canon to Watchmen would be helpful, but only half a solution. There's still the question of whether it should be dealt with on this page at all, since it's not part of the work the page is actually about.
Okay so a few days back, I removed this edit made under Reality Ensues:
There are many issues I had with this edit, but the chief one was simply that it referred to Doomsday Clock and the general norms about the Watchmen page and sub-page, observed by multiple tropers is to treat Watchmen as standalone, and that applies to the character pages as well. Neither Moore nor Gibbons consider any follow-ups canon. Yes Dave Gibbons has been supportive to creators but he has been firm that it's not canon.
Now another troper restored the edit and insists that the norm practiced and maintained consistently about "Doomsday Clock" doesn't apply anymore. So what's people's take on this
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