Discussion Characters / Persona5ThePhantomThievesOfHearts

Maybe give Protag his own page, or give the General folder its own one?

EDIT: We could also probably cut down on length if we separated them from their personas (or just didn't list them). I think P4 does that.

I'd leave the In General on the page and make new pages for Joker and the other Phantom Thieves respectively.

If no one's got an issue with it, I'll do it tonight.

What is the point of the Phantom Thieves only being a "tropes as a collective" page? Protagonist and Morgana can be their own page without the Phantom Thieves moniker attached after all, so it won't appear to be a needless subpage, and the "other thieves" page could stay a part of this one as it sounds rude to act as if the majority of the actual group are the "others" here. If the Phantom Thieves page would get too long with the actual group being on it at least make the secondary group page be "Personas" or divide it between Phantom Thieves- Boys and and Phantom Thieves- Girls (that can also split some of the size from the general tropes) or something so that it being separate can make some sense.

1) It's general practice to leave the General tropes behind when splitting a page involves taking all the characters off it, since that just gives the other pages a whole bunch of redundant tropes.

2) Other Thieves just means they're the rest of the party, it's not a value judgement on their worth. (And I'm not sure how you thought it was.)

3) Most of the tropes for the Phantom Thieves don't deal with their Personas, so it doesn't make much sense to split them off into their own page. IIRC part of the reason the Persona 4 Personas got split off anyway was because they were linked to their Shadows, which save for Futaba's we don't even see onscreen.

4) I will however agree that I could've made the names shorter, but that's fairly easy to fix.

1) So now what do we do with this page as it's title is non-indicative about what's actually on it?

2) How does all of the Thieves being on an "Other Thieves" page make any sense to the readers though? Particularly since there is no reason to have the very name indicative "Protagonist and Morgana" as a "Phantom Thieves" subpage. The name is awkward and that's why it feels wrong, it seems like a value judgement in the same way Giligan's Island's opening lyrics of "Professor and Mary Ann" has different connotations than when it was originally "And the rest".

3) Is splitting it based on gender acceptable then or are there concerns the girl's page will still get too long? We could have the guys be here since half of them have a separate page all to themselves now, even though it would be best to migrate any female exclusive general tropes to the ladies' page. I'd suggest splitting it between founding members and have later members serve as the "Other Thieves" so we could keep the name but I don't know if the line should be drawn after Yusuke or Makoto.

I think it'd work best if we did split the thieves between the founding members (first palace party) and the rest, with Ann at the end of the first page and Yusuke beginning the other. This way it splits the endgame party composition at an even 4-4 (of course we'd still keep Akechi, so it'd really be 4-5). The only issue I find is with the page names in this case. "Initial Thieves" or "Founding Thieves" both work, but "Other Thieves", even if it's an existing page name, feels dismissive(?) in comparison somehow. Or I might just be placing too much weight on the names.

The gender split works just as well page size-wise, though I personally prefer keeping the chronological joining sequence we have here. Don't see how the girls' page might get too long, though, especially since the guys' page has one more character.

I agree that "Other Thieves" seems dismissive. It makes it feel like the rest of the team aren't important.

Why not just "Thieves First Half" and "Thieves Second Half"?

Totally agree with Kiwi Maxim and Vanitas.

Giving Joker and Morgana their own page while excluding the rest to an "others" page feels very awkward, it's not like they're freaking Ash Ketchum and Pikachu, you know.

I think Joker, Morgana, Ryuji, and Ann are the first half of the group, as the founding members.

Yusuke, Makoto, Futaba, Haru, and I guess Akechi would make the second half.

What do you guys think?

I agree with that split.

So you'd have three Phantom Thieves pages:

• The Phantom Thieves of Hearts: for general tropes applying to the group as a whole
  • The Phantom Thieves First Half: Joker, Morgana, Ryuji, Ann
  • The Phantom Thieves Second Half: Yusuke, Makoto, Futaba, Haru, Akechi

You could even do Yusuke in the first half because for a while we only knew of those five, I feel like we got introduced to Makoto, Futaba, and Haru at the same time in promotional material (with Akechi being.. somewhere in there). Still, a more even split would be better than just Joker and Morgana and then... the rest.

Right. Let's go with that. I just removed the "general" folder, too.

I went and made the split and made the appropriate changes to all of the links. Hopefully it's all fine.

You all sure we should stick with "First Half" and "Second Half" as the names though? "Founding Thieves" and "Later Thieves" at least would indicate who's on what page without the need for notes, since currently while it seems somewhat needed on the Thieves page having an index on top of already having links to the two sub pages feels kinda redundant.

Yeah I'm for swapping the First/Second Half names with Founding/Later (or Latter, whichever sounds better) Thieves and doing away with the bullet links on the Thieves' General page, since we've got the index for that. Are we good with these changes?

I don't remember that either. Maybe it's a thing in the Japanese version?

Good point, I never saw that in the localization. It's certainly possible the Japanese version includes a line like that, but we'd need someone who can speak Japanese to confirm - the Japanese Dub DLC only changes the voice lines; the text remains unaltered from the localization.

After viewing it a couple more times, I gotta agree. While it can be argued that her cautiously approaching Joker from behind is the result of her feeling awkward and shy being so close to the man she's attracted to, the "swooning" was directed towards the treasure itself. Still, I don't wanna start a dispute over it. Gonna leave it up to others if they wish to delete or correct the written entry.

Yeah, cut that. For one, it's not integrating gameplay with story... there's no gameplay involved. For another, she only has a crush on him if the Confidant is leveled up (so it would only even slightly count if her animation changed as it gets leveled up). And thirdly, yeah, the "swooning" is clearly at the item.

No it wouldn't. Once is not enough for that trope.

Ok

Then we should probably remove it from Yukari's character profile on the Persona 3 page as well: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Characters/Persona3SEES

Looking at the game outside of any social link/confidant interactions, the characters in each game with the most ship tease are Yukari, Rise, and Makoto. (Well, okay, that falls apart in Persona 4 Golden, where Marie gets a lot more than Rise does, to be fair.)

Basically, I'm trying to look at it without looking at confidant/social link stories or outside materials, which usually differ from the game and from one another—there's every chance a Persona 5 anime will do things differently from the manga, for example, just like what happened with Persona 3 and 4's manga and anime adaptations. In-game in Persona 5, Makoto gets several classic "anime romantic comedy" moments with the protagonist; Ann really doesn't. Sojiro does ask her if she's single on the protagonist's behalf, but that's about it. (I mean, part of that could just be down to Ann not really having a ton to do in the story after Makoto is introduced, so I could see an argument that Makoto has those scenes just because she gets more screen time than the others.)

But I'm having a hard time seeing your argument here that Makoto has no romantic scenes outside of her confidant. Sure, she has no scenes where she directly expresses a romantic interest in the protagonist, but neither did Yukari. She does, however, have scenes that, were this an anime, would look like they were teasing an eventual romantic pairing. That's my whole point: I think you might be looking at things too literally and relying too much on a non-canon, non-game adaptation.

Except official material states yukari did have feelings for the protag and rise isn't the implied love interest because having a crush doesnt make you one. The Makoto examples are even worse than rise.

Yukari had feelings for him, yes, but it's left completely up to the player whether the protagonist reciprocated those feelings.

I think you're being too literal. You're reading "implied love interest" as "stated love interest." I'm looking at the implications of scenes.

No if it was stated this would be much more easy, Yukari had more romantic scenes and gerneral plot development with the protagonist and the there was the awnser. Makoto didn't have more scenes than any other girl your argument was a scene played for laughs and him saving his freind none of which are romantic unless you have some serious shipping goggles. By that logic him coforting Ann and her getting a scene of him mesmerized by her makes her still more qualified when even those examples aren't very romantic... see the problem. While we may not have a anime we have a official material that shoves Ann down our throat.

When was the scene where the protagonist is "mesmerized" by Ann? I might've missed that one, or read it differently. (Are you referring to the "looking down Ann's shirt" scene in the van in the desert?) Similarly, people comfort people who they aren't romantically interested in all the time.

I don't think it matters whether a scene is played for laughs. A scene being funny doesn't remove its character-building implications. If that were the case, "romantic comedy" wouldn't be a genre. In just about any anime or manga, a "he is not my boyfriend" scene is a ship tease—that's what it's used for in that genre. Hell, they do it with Marie constantly in Persona 4 Golden for exactly that reason. It's also not Joker saving Makoto from the rubble that teases anything, but the shot immediately afterwards as they look at each other while Joker has his arm around her. Again, not explicitly romantic, but taken in context (and in the context of other shots like that in other media), it's something that often occurs between characters who will either pair up, or who the writer(s) want the viewers to think about pairing up. They're common romantic tropes.

I do want to clarify that I'm not arguing there's a canon here, or that Makoto is a STRONGLY implied love interest. It's very possible the manga will have an explicit relationship with Ann, and for all I know an updated rerelease down the line will add a Marie-type character who's a strongly suggested love interest. You're right that the game doesn't actually lean all that strongly one way or another. She just has a few wink-wink, nudge-nudge scenes that other characters don't, that's all. (For what it's worth, my Joker dated Kawakami the first time through. I don't have much of a horse in this race, I'm just arguing for how I read the developers' intentions.)

Maybe I'm using the Implied Love Interest trope too lightly for the "implied" part? But if that's the case, I'd argue Ann shouldn't have it on her list, either.

Your first part proved my point " you saw it differently" YMMV in a nutshell, and the reason Ann is here isn't for the game ( she does have explicit scenes in others material)as previously state it even mentions there is no preferred girl for the game

I still don't know what scene you're referring to. I want to see if it's something I missed.

Think your missing the point

My point has nothing to do with canon or interpretation—I'm pointing to tropes that are used in other media to mean a thing, that are used in Persona 5 a couple of times with Makoto. I'm saying that, in the context of other media, a couple of Joker and Makoto's interactions imply an eventual romance. Not that "I read those as romantic" or "I think they're the best ship." My point is that the developers intentionally used some romantic anime tropes in a few scenes with Joker and Makoto and that implies that she is a vaguely preferred love interest.

Also I really don't think you're arguing in good faith if you're not willing to provide specific evidence.

Except I just pointed out that other character had similar interacts that " you just didn't see as romantic" when that have the same context as yours. Hence why in game their is no best ship or preferred ship from the writers( though considering they pinned the other material..). And what evidence if your talking a bout the cutscenes it's the first scen where you met Ann apart from that read the martial of you speak Japanese. Here's a few pics http://sillyfudgemonkeys.tumblr.com/post/157850049854/if-yall-thought-i-was-joking-about-annexmc-heres.

I'm not denying that Ann is strongly implied in the manga. I don't read Japanese but you don't have to read Japanese to understand the body language in those scans.

Have Makoto, Futaba, and Haru appeared in the manga yet? If so, do these scenes continue with Ann afterwards, with nothing for the other three? Because that's pretty important to how one should read it—it's either harem anime stuff where there are teases with everyone (which is what I suspect would happen, given Atlus's general reluctance to assign a canon romance), or in that manga specifically it's a story of an MC who romances Ann (also a distinct possibility).

And again, I'm not saying "*I* don't read those scenes as romantic." I'm saying that "taking how scenes like those are used in other, similar media into account, those scenes are not coded as romantic." Responding to that with "yeah, but I don't think so" isn't using evidence or taking the wider context of how anime and video games imply romance into account.

Yes they both appear in the manga Apart from futaba he really doesn't interact with them much a lot of the scenes with Ann are after they are all a group. And once again your argument is missing the point.

Which point? Honestly, okay, pretend I'm stupid or like five years old or something. Spell out the point I missed.

As of yet you haven't responded to my point at all, but I'm not simply responding with "you're missing the point." If you are missing the point and not just ignoring it, I'll rephrase or find other examples so that my point, well, makes sense.

All my previous posts where responding to your point, you just kept digging yourself deeper. And on top of it you still havnt proven Makoto of being mor implied than anyone else basically your argument is I see these scenes as romantic A) they are not b) other character have similar scenes and c) have proven my point of YMMV all of which I have stated previously .... you've basically argued against yourself...

Frankly, I think you're the one missing the point. Here's my point in a single sentence.

"The developers of Persona 5 included scenes involving Makoto and Joker that use tropes that are often used in other, similar media to indicate a future romantic pairing, and other characters do not have as many scenes that use romantically-coded tropes outside of their confidants."

At no point in that do I say, "I think they're the best pairing," or, "I'm reading these scenes this way without any further evidence." What I'm asking you for is one of the following:

- Scenes involving Ann, Futaba, and/or Haru that use tropes that, in other media, would suggest an implied romantic pairing. Specific scenes, not just "there were some." For example, I think Futaba's generally used in scenes that place her in a little sister-like role to Joker (he's protective of her, she hides behind him, they were both taken in by the same father figure, etc.).

- Explain why the tropes I'm using as evidence are not romantically-coded—again, using the context of other media, not just what you want to see.

So far, this entire argument has involved me using wider context and you responding with the rough equivalent of "that's just, like, your opinion, man."

And again other character have similar scenes the developers included " you didn't see them as romantic" nevermind none of them are romantic at all( and the devs also wrote the manga) I've listed previous examples we have covered this in previous posts

No, I'm saying that those scenes do not use tropes that imply romance in the context of other, similar media. To put it another way: there are tropes and situations that writers use as shorthand to convey an idea. The "he is not my boyfriend" scene is often supposed to lead to "...but she wishes he was." It's an extremely common scene in anime/video game romantic comedy. What I'm saying is not "I, personally, see that as romantic"—I"m saying that "that is the kind of thing you include in a story to get the audience thinking about romance."

Similarly, I'm saying that the one specific scene you did mention—the one where Joker gets Ann to open up to him about Shiho and Kamoshida—is not coded as romantic using tropes or themes like those. I'm not saying "I, personally, don't see it that way." I'm saying that it doesn't use storytelling shorthand to get the audience to see it that way.

You mentioned another scene in which Joker is "mesmerized" by Ann, but when I asked you to be more specific, you refused, so unfortunately I can't really respond to that.

The scene involves them setting down and him comforting her is about about as romantic as Makoto scene wich is played for laughs. And I I stated in a previous post (which I no longer think you read) it's the cutscenes when your first meet Ann. You could also argue Sojiro ships Ann and Mc based on his meeting her... but the problem is none of the scenes we mentioned are romantic we could take Ryuji and put him in Makoto or Ann's place and they would be the the same. In the case of Haru she's the only one with Explictly romantic feeling no matter what you do so she may lead the in game case. But I as I stated before you seem to be seeing what you perfer to be true.

"You could also argue Sojiro ships Ann and Mc based on his meeting her"

I'd agree with that. Though honestly Sojiro probably just wants Joker to get a girlfriend and Ann was the first of his female friends that Sojiro met.

"it's the cutscenes when your first meet Ann."

Yeah, fair enough. I pulled that up on You Tube and you're right, that's pretty romantically-coded. Or, if nothing else, Joker definitely thinks Ann is too beautiful to look away from (which makes sense, because she's a model). To be fair, there's not really any indication she reciprocates the attraction here, but Joker's definitely impressed.

"Makoto scene wich is played for laughs."

Again, a scene being funny or serious has nothing to do with whether or not it implies romance. The entire romantic comedy genre exists.

"but the problem is none of the scenes we mentioned are romantic we could take Ryuji and put him in Makoto or Ann's place and they would be the the same."

Not the meeting scene, no, but the hanging out and giving her advice about Shiho and Kamoshida? Yeah, if there was a male character there, I don't think anyone would see it as romantic. There are multiple scenes in Ryuji's confidant where you sit down and talk about feelings together at a table and it's not romantic. I'd argue that you're reading that one as romantic specifically because Ann is female, not because of the content of the scene. (Are we talking about the same scene there? I'm talking about the one before Ann joins, when Kamoshida texts her and threatens that he's going to take away Shiho's starting position if Ann doesn't sleep with him. Same scene, or are you thinking of a different one?)

"In the case of Haru she's the only one with Explictly romantic feeling no matter what you do so she may lead the in game case."

So far I haven't taken the character's confidants into account. Haru never expresses a romantic interest in Joker if you don't do her confidant. That makes her even less implied than Rise, who does show a romantic interest in Joker, social link or not, doesn't it? And I think you earlier argued that Rise isn't implied as a love interest.

Again the point was none of the mentioned scenes romantic unless you have some shipping goggles there is no ILI in game not Ann, not Makoto, not Haru because there is no romance outside of Confidants and by that logic Haru wins, also based on your bizarre "how it works" in a anime argument the phone call with Ann could be considering that's how a lot of ship tease works in anime.... and that one cutscene makes it seem there's more a thing going on between him and Ann than anything you brought up with Makoto, the point is your argument doesn't hold water...

Frankly I don't think you have any idea what ship teasing is, how it works, how writers do it, or why they do it. Also, for posting on a site called TV Tropes, you don't seem to understand what a trope is or why writers might use them to communicate ideas. I'm not going to edit the page again because I know you'll just revert it over and over, but I really do mean it when I say that I don't think you have any idea how writing or character development works. This is a pointless argument because I think there's a baseline gap in media literacy that we can't talk across.

To put it another way, I don't think I'm the one with shipping goggles on here, especially not when it's an extremely common reading that the developers are pushing Makoto pretty hard (even among those who wish they wouldn't).

"the phone call with Ann could be considering that's how a lot of ship tease works in anime"

Which phone call? You mean Kamoshida calling her, and then Joker is concerned and they talk about it at a diner? Because there's nothing ship tease about that scene unless "a character cares about another character's well-being and gets them to open up about their troubles" is ship tease now. And if that's the case, then Joker and Ryuji are practically married by like rank 4 of the Chariot confidant.

Considering you were the one adding a second implied love interest and think a freind saving another freind from death ship tease I don't think I'm the one one in need of guidence

1. You, yourself, said that Ann's entry is specifically for the manga. Makoto's would be for the game. A second entry makes perfect sense in that context.

2. Once more: it's the glance afterwards that implies something. This is at least the third time I've explained that. It's a subtle gesture but those matter in a visual medium.

3. You're deliberately ignoring the use of tropes in writing—a shorthand to communicate a storytelling idea to an audience that a writer uses befause they know an audience will read a scene a certain way—to argue against me. The reason I'm arguing using tropes is because they have established implications when they're used, and writers use them on purpose to convey those implications to the audience. You're willfully ignoring evidence that doesn't support your argument because you don't like my conclusion. I mean, if I search your username on here I can find you doing the same thing with Mipha vs Zelda as the implied love interest in Breath of the Wild. You're either the one looking at everything through your preferred ship or you've drawn a conclusion and have declared the matter settled.

Honestly Harrowing looking at this conversation he has you beat. There's never two implied love interest in any context and, I believe he's right in the scenes aren't very romantic. And I also think the scenes he listed as examples are just as much(if not more) filled with subtle romantic context as your. As someone who helped clean up the Zelda page I don't agree with dragons lack of tact but I do think they understand what they're talking about your side of the argument however seems based on your own bias.

It's hard to have tact when they miss the point a billion times

It's hard to catch a point that isn't being made.

Sorry, that last one was snippy. I don't mean to be a jerk.

Day Vog, maybe you can explain better than Dragon? I'm open to it, but having played the game, I don't see any attraction between Ann and the MC outside of the confidant—same for Haru and Futaba. But I, and a whole lot of others on other forums, seemed to see the game pushing Makoto pretty hard. I'm wondering where we differ on that one and I really wasn't convinced by Dragon's arguments.

Wow... just...wow my point exactly Day Vog he hasn't read any of the past posts hell he just had to read your post. But I will again make it so read it very slowly. I you have listed examples which mean nothing because they aren't romantic unless you have shipping goggles. I in turn listed equally romantic in nature scenes which would prove that makoto is not preferred over the other girls. The problem is none of the scenes are romantic in the least and you seem to be arguing off of your own bias as even Day Vog said.... do you grasp it now

Edit I just saw your edit after i posted I apologize for getting harsh but point stands it's all YMMV there is no ramance in game between any of the girls

Yeah, I'm sorry I got snippy. I don't mean to be a jerk about it, I really don't. The point is that I don't agree with your assertion that my examples don't read as romantic, and only one of your examples does (the animated meaning scene). Where I'm failing to see your point is that I don't understand how my examples aren't romantic when they're common romantic comedy tropes. I'd understand if your argument was "Ann has just as many," but going to "and also your examples are wrong" is where I just can't meet you halfway.

That's the point they dont seem romantic to me like some of the other don't seem to you, it basically comes down to your point of view even Day Vog didn't see the romance. But considering Ann got just as many Makoto wouldn't even be implied. Basically people will go into this game seeing there own thing and while I saw people seeing Makoto on forums I also saw Ann and futaba out there a lot the problem is they mostly seem bias. So basically we have ILI in game set by the devs, hence the only reason Ann was mentioned for the other material.

Not until it's used in multiple adaptations or spinoffs, like Yu Narukami was.

I'd argue that once it's used in a game, it's "official." Anything manga or anime is subject to change, but once Atlus uses it in a game, it's likely to stick.

Wait until the game is actually out, just to be safe.

Foil is one of the most grossly overused tropes on the site. At least wait until the game is out before slapping it on everything.