Discussion Characters / DragonBallMultiversalCharacters

Unless the page is too big again, I see no reason to give U11 its own page at this time.

To the eyes of his enemies, yes, he is a monster clown :P

Joking aside, i'm not entirely sure. He is still a God of Destruction.

All right, change it.

That wasn't confirm at all. That's just an assumption since mortal level is left vague.

If it"s left vague then it shouldn't serve as an indicator of strenght either.

Given that the Grand Priest gave the mortal level after being impressed by Gohan and Lavender's match since they're both from lower ranking universes, strength is a factor in some way. Otherwise, why even bring it up at that moment.

Yeah, but Bergamo also says that Goku has an extremely low Mortal Level because of his stupid wish and the fact that he is a fool without a thought in his head. Later on, the Supreme Kai from one of the exempt universes explicitly says that a high mortal level means that "they gave good godly guidance". So while strength definitely is a factor, it isn't the ONLY one. At any rate, I think the entries should just reflect how the Gods did their job well and leave out the power rankings until more explanation is given.

If Beerus and the Supreme Kai didn't know what a mortal level was, what makes you think Bergamo does? He also thought that he was stronger than Goku.

Give good guidance can easily mean that their guidance gave them strong mortals. And that is your assumption what mortal level means.

There isn't enough future characters and their entries are not long enough to justify them getting their own page. You would do better just making another page for the Gods of Destruction of their own individual universe since they will have at least 13 characters each.

I think it's high-time the whole Super page got reorganized into subpages. It was only going to last so long before it got flooded. For now U7 and U6 can get pages of their own, while the rest can stay on the main page until they get too big. Especially U7 which could be categorized even further into stuff like "Gods" "villains" "civilians" .etc

Understood. I will move the Universe 6 characters then.

It would be better to just stick the gods with their respective universes and separate if they become too big like Beerus.

Like characters from U1 and then have another page for everyone in U2.

The whole page might need reorganizing soon if any more U7 characters get introduced.

I think it will need to be separated into separate parts, since 10 more gods of destruction will be introduced.

Goku Black being Zamasu is a huge spoiler and he is his own character despite being Zamasu. Merged Zamasu is also his own character, which is why he has his own section.

Having his own section is fine, but Fusion Zamasu being Zamasu isn't really a spoiler. It's just for organizations sake.

Moving Black there you could rename the page Zamasu And Associates or Future Trunks Arc Antagonists

But the fact that there is more than one antagonist is a spoiler since we don't see Future Zamasu until the end Episode 56 when the saga started on Episode 47. And Merged Zamasu is a spoiler given his name and the fact that Zamasu fused with someone, especially since Present Zamasu was in the Villain Corner for almost half the saga. And, again, he is his own character. For example, Vegito isn't listed on Goku or Vegeta's character pages.

I actually agree with moving Merged Zamasu to the main Zamasu page.

But none of the other fusions are on other people character pages. Like Vegito and Gogeta have their own section and are not listed under Goku or Vegeta's page. There is also Black, who had his own page, and he's one half of Merged Zamasu.

I'm all for Goku Black being put on Zamasu's page in that case. Remember that Merged Zamasu is literally just 2 Zamasus fused together. The other Fusions are their own character because they composite the traits of different people.

Goku Black being in the Zamasu page is one big spoiler since one-third of the entire saga is devoted to finding out who Black is. That isn't common information to anyone but the hardcore fanbase.

I knew that, but since you bothered bringing him up I didn't think you cared about him being a spoiler.

This doesn't counter my Merged Zamasu argument though. He's still the same person as Goku Black and unfused Zamasu, just stronger. Plus, Majin Buu's page has all his forms on the same page. Several of which are separate from Fat Buu's character.

Merged Zamasu have different character traits compared to Black or Future Zamasu, and isn't really the same character as them just like the other fusions. In fact, he has almost none of Black's personal character traits.

Buu is divided the way it is because he's a late arrival spoiler.

You made good points, so I concede to you.

I don't know you're out numbreed ramona,

Fusion Zamasu as a fusion by definition has traits of Goku Black. It's his G Oku Black traits that get him killed.

Also Goku Black and Zamasu are literally the same person, they're just two facets of one person's personality.

Or if you argue that Fusion Zamasu doesn't have any Goku Black traits, and he's just a powered up Zamasu, then why is someone with the same name, similar appearance, and all the same personality traits not listed on one page.

you kinda played yourself out of this.

Fusion Zamasu is still Zamasu, and having him sitting idle on the characters page while all Zamasus are elsewhere is just weird. He's another version of Zamasu, but still Zamasu.

Many of the In General tropes on Zamasu's page applies to him anyway.

As much I didn't want to put Merged Zamasu on the Zamasu page, I did it because the Super character page got too big yet again and I couldn't justify giving Merged Zamasu his own page.

I will maintain that Goku Black remains his own page for several reasons:

For one, Goku Black's page is very long on its own. His page is over 15,000 words long, which is bigger than some of the main character pages like Future Trunks, Krillin, and Piccolo, and it has its own folders. In comparison, all the Zamasus together came out to be over 21,000.

Two, Goku Black being Zamasu is a spoiler since who Black is isn't revealed until three-forths through the saga.

Three, Goku Black and Zamasu are not the same person, no more than Kid Trunks and Future Trunks are the same person and they don't share the same page. Even smaller characters like Future Bulma and Future Gohan recently got their own entries and are no longer part of their present counterparts page. Even the way Black is advertise puts him in a different place compared to all the other Zamasus. The way the show and the media presents it, the audience don't know that Future Zamasu is a native of Future Trunks' timeline.

I agree Black stays separate. He's always treated by the show like a separate character, even after the reveal. He has very different tropes to the other Zamasus. Also, merging him would make Zamasu page insanely long, as there is more than enough content on his own page.

The characters call it "Super Saiyan Blue". Using the other term, which the show does not use, is simply incorrect. The manga even has a scene to the effect of "this term is pretty long, we'll make a new one that is easier to say."

But that only shows that is was called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan and it was only shortened to Super Super Blue. Not that the name is incorrect.

It is incorrect if there was a willing decision to switch to another name. It be like insisting on calling Daisy Johnson from Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. "Skye" past the point when she stopped using that name. "Skye" is only correct in a certain context. Beyond that, it's ignoring an obvious decision to change the name to something else. "Blue" is what they decided on, in both the show and the manga. Sticking to the verbose one is simply refusing to acknowledge that reality. If they don't switch in other contexts (Xenoverse 2, for example, though I have no experience in that), then using that term is just fine. Here, they've chosen Blue as their term, and it has to be written to reflect that.

It isn't incorrect since all they did was shortened the name. Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was the original name and they gave it a nickname because it was long-winded, if you're going to used the manga. So technically, Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is reasonable.

Also, Xenoverse 2 still do call it Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or SSGSS. In fact, that is what the form is called in all products except in the Super manga and anime. Even the products for Super in Japan calls the form Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

I thought as much. Still, as noted, they're going with Blue here. The characters stopped using the long term. They always call it Blue now. They're not both correct in that context if one has been depreciated in favor of another.

One is used within the show as a nickname if you want to used the manga. So, they both can be used, it doesn't have to be one or other. So, I don't see the need to change every used of Super Saiyan Super Saiyan to Super Saiyan Blue, since this like arguing over using the Viz or the Funi English spellings.

Except you're drawing a false comparison. It's not "this translation says one thing and this says another," it's an in-universe decision not to use that term. It's not like the characters are using "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan". They're saying "Blue". There's no disputing that.

If you're going to used the manga, they called it Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan before shortening it. That is like how Goku Black is just a nickname, yet everyone calls him Goku Black or just Black.

"before shortening it", key point there. It was one thing, they changed it to another. That became the standard.

The Goku Black comparison also doesn't work. Goku Black is something they call him, again deliberately, because he's a fake and they don't want to associate him with the real one. It's an In-Series Nickname. At best, Blue could fall under that umbrella, but with the caveat that they stopped using the original term in favor of it.

That didn't change it, they just shortened it. They also didn't know Goku Black was a fake until recently. Goku Black is a nickname, but it isn't his actual name nor does he goes by it. He either calls himself Goku or Zamasu.

Blue is only a standard by the character's speaking, not outside the universe, and even in-universe it was called Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the manga.

It's plain and simple: The series itself, in both its animated and promotional manga format, uses Blue, and the entries here should reflect that. It doesn't matter what it's called in other, non-story promos, if it is referred to as Super Saiyan Blue In-Universe then that's what is used here. By that same token, of course, it should be called SSGSS in the Xenoverse entries, which still use that term.

Are you really going to police every page to make sure the proper term is used for each. People call it Blue in Xenoverse page too. And it isn't just Xenoverse. All promotional material for Dragon Ball call it Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan.

Also, what about character pages no related to Super? Call it Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan when referring to material outside of Super?

The terms are essentially interchangable, but if you just consume the content (which is what this website is primarily about, content) the characters call it Blue.

There are not enough tropes to justify Zen'o having his own page.

Beerus and Whis having their own pages is by far the best idea.

He had no tropes to put specifically under him.

Besides the obvious Fusion Dance, White Hair, Black Heart?

You need at least three tropes to make a new character entry. And really, that is barely enough to count.

Wait till the next episode has aired.

All right, I'll wait, but, if we create the folder for the fusion, he should go to "Other" and with a spoiler tag.

You can't spoiler tag the name.

As of yet, we don't know if Present Zamasu and Future Zamasu are the same person. If they are, you really can't split them in two.

Seeing how things maybe going, we may have to split the page after all since it appears that Future Zamasu is a native of Trunks' time, while Present Zamasu really was killed. If that is the case, I suggest we do what is done on the Majin Buu page. Make a general trope folder where all the Zamasus fit before separating them into their individual tropes.

I disagree. Outside of specific details, both Zamasus are identical. Just put a spoiler that say the character entry is talking of both. Besides, to new watchers, Future Zamasu is a spoiler anyway.

Maybe we could include two sub sections for Zamasu, one for future one for present?

You can't spoiler tag the name.

No. Both Zamasus have the same tropes. The most specific ones are about Black, anyway, considering he is Present Zamasu (from a different timeline, yada yada).

For the time being, it should be Goku Black. "Grammar" shouldn't really factor into it one way or the other. But "Black" is treated as the characters name (hence why he's more often than not referred to as just "Black"), with Goku as the descriptor.

And it goes against normal naming convention. There are plenty of characters in Japanese described as "Black X" and the order in Japanese is the same. For example, the evil clone of Optimus Prime (Convoy in Japan) is "Burakku Conboi." The fact this defies convention is notable.

It's going to be moot soon enough. I'd venture good money that it'll be Black Goku when an English version comes out, but for now it should be Goku Black.

It should be noted that he's only called Black in the show. Everywhere else and Toriyama calls him Black Goku.

I think it should be Black Goku, because it's common for Japanese To put English and Japanese in awkward orders. For example, Goku is written in English, which isn't normal for them, but Black is in Japanese.

That's... not really evidence, though. Anecdotally saying "the Japanese sometimes use awkward orders" isn't an argument.

Like I said, "Black X" is a really common character name. And it's never written as "X Black." The fact this is written like that shows something.

And, okay, they only call him Black in the show. That's still... you know... about the most canon thing there is.

But the author himself called him Black Goku, and we don't know the reason why he's called Black. Which is why it's written in the character page as Black Goku/Black.

Also, it isn't anecdotal that the Japanese some times use awkward word orders. For example, Luffy's gears is called Gear Second and Gear Third in Japan, yet they're translated as Second Gear and Third Gear in English.

Actually, there was entire thing about Black Goku's name on kanzenshuu, but I don't have the time look for it at the moment. The jest of it was that Black Goku and Goku Black are both technically correct, yet Black Goku was chosen since that was what English speaking people will most likely go with. There is also a chance that the word Black will be change to something like Dark if it get dub, since that is what usually happens.

But the author himself called him Black Goku

Which rather shoots down your argument. There is a difference in someone saying "Goku Black" vs. "Black Goku," it's not just a quirk of the language. And we care more about what's actually in the work than anything else. That trumps everything else.

The next episode title also calls Black, Black Goku.

How about this. What most sites do is use both. So it's Goku Black/Black Goku, and we can use that until we at least get an official sub.

Also, there isn't a real different since the people who follow and translate Toriyama's work said both Black Goku and Goku Black are technically correct. The quirk is how the Black Goku is spelled compare Goku.

So that... wasn't true. No episode calls him Black Goku. One calls him Goku Black, another calls him Black.

Most sites are actually calling him Black so I say go with that.

All I said it could go either Black Goku or Goku Black since both are technically correct going by people like Herms. I have seen people use all three. So can call him Black Goku, Goku Black, or just Black. They're are right.

The next episode title also calls Black, Black Goku.

This is what I'm referring to. No episode calls him Black Goku.

You keep saying "they're interchangeable" when the work consistently... doesn't treat them as such. He's referred to solely as Black and Goku Black in the show. Therefore we should go with one of those. In the spirit of compromise I was leaning towards Black, but now I'm leaning towards Goku Black since there's at least one other character named Black.

What other character is called Black?

I used the word interchangeable because Herms and others who do the translation for Super says that it is. So he can be called Black, Goku Black, and Black Goku.

Who is that?

Staff Officer Black from the Red Ribbon Army is whom I'm referring to.

But one he's usually called Officer Black. I have never heard anyone just called him Black.

Usually, yeah. But no point in going with the more ambiguous name when the clearer, equally official name exists, you know?

I don't know. Officer or Staff Officer Black has never been called just Black before to my knowledge, so I don't think there would be any confusion. Black's official name is Goku Black/Black Goku. Or, if you go by what he calls himself, Son Goku.

So you still never answered my question, who's this Herms?

Apparently one of the guys on Pafsubs who do the translation work. It should be noted that fansubbers are not considered credible sources in discussions of this nature.

Anyway, I don't really have a care one way or the other on this subject, however, TV Tropes policy is to use the name officially used by the creators of the work. As there is no official English translation for Super at this time, that means what the Japanese creators call him.

In the show itself, they've only ever called him "Black". In the episode titles, he's consistently referred to as "Goku Black", in that order. To my mind, if we have to choose one or the other exclusively, that's the name that should be used, so I'm casting my vote that way. However, my personal opinion on the matter is that it doesn't really matter what order the name goes in.

Herms is a trustworthy translator who has been doing the live tweets for Super since the beginning. He along with Dragon Team are the most accurate when it comes to the translations for the show and is treated as the unofficial word until an official sub is released. He isn't part of the Pafsubs, those are different guys.

You can read more about him on kanzenshuu.

That's still just a fanslator, thus not really relevant to this discussion.

Anyhoo, realistically the discussion should be whether we go with Goku Black or Black. The strongest claim for Black Goku is essentially "it might be as valid as the others" which... doesn't make a lot of sense.

I prefer Goku Black over just Black because it's more descriptive. Anyone else?

You asked who Herms is and I told you. He and other trusted translator had said that Goku Black and Black Goku are both correct, so one isn't more official over the other. There is no might about it.

And Herms has done work as a professional translator for the record.

I don't mean to belittle Herms's translation skills or his opinions (hell, as stated previously, I agree with him), but the fact of the matter is that he is not an official translator for this series, and therefore, by TV Tropes policy, his opinion is not relevant to this discussion.

Gonna add a third vote to Goku Black. If we are going to use something other than just "Black" as he's called in show, then that's one's better per Larkman's opening explanation.

Never said Herms was the official translator. I said that according to him and others who given the most accurate translation for the series, Black Goku and Goku Black are interchangeable. And I still personally say that both should be used until an official translation happens, which should happen around late October since that is when Xenoverse 2 will be released and Black Goku/Goku Black is a pre-order bonus.

Honestly, I think we should change nothing until then since until the Funi dub reaches this point, Xenoverse 2 will be the closest thing to an official translation.

You say change nothing... after you had changed it to fit your preference. That seems a bit disingenuous. As does bringing up someone, calling them a translator, when you should by now know that he's irrelevant to the conversation.

We've got a lot of "who cares?," at least three votes for Goku Black, and one vote for Black Goku. Discussion's gone on over a month. I say we change this.

Second.

Thirded.

Making the change.

Well whatever. For the record, I didn't change it to my personal preference. He was called Black Goku when his name was first printed here, and I didn't make the first entry. It was other tropers who kept changing it despite never being a consensus spelling.

Someone changed it to Goku Black with an edit reason, you immediately reverted it without discussion. That's an edit war. You should know that.