To-do list:
- It was decided to limit Dark Magical Girl to only examples that are Shadow Archetypes whose story arc / theming distort, subvert, or twist the ideas of The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship.
- Rewrite the description as necessary.
- Clean up on-page examples.
- Clean up wicks.
Dark Magical Girl (DMG) is an archetype exclusive to the Magical Girl (MG) genre (hence the trope name). This antagonistic character has a dark and angsty personality, has issues, and contrasts the main heroine. She initially antagonises said main heroine before turning good. The problem with this trope is that a majority of the examples ignore the MG requirement, making them misuse. A wick check is conducted to gauge misuse. The following are the results:
- 4/50 (8%) wicks pass the MG test.
- 19/50 (38%) wicks fail the MG test. They fit the characteristics but are not MGs / are not present in a work of the MG genre. Simply being a young female character with magical powers and angst doesn't make her a DMG.
- 1/50 (2%) wicks are other types of misuse unrelated to the above.
- 23/50 (46%) wicks are ZCEs and contextless potholes.
- 3/50 (6%) wicks are unclassified.
Suggestion: Cut. Disambig it into one or more "angst" tropes (e.g., Anti-Villain, Dark and Troubled Past, Freudian Excuse, etc.).
Wick check:
The issue: Dark Magical Girl is an archetype exclusive to the Magical Girl (MG) genre, so all correct examples must be an MG. Therefore, any example that don't take this into account is misuse.Wicks checked: 50/50
I: 4/50 (8%)
II: 19/50 (38%)
III: 1/50 (2%)
IV: 23/50 (46%)
V: 3/50 (6%)
- Characters.Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha Fate Testarossa: Character is from a work of the MG genre, though this example needs more context on the "Foil / rival" and "angst" parts (PCE).
- Dark Is Not Evil: Fate's Barrier Jacket is black and frequently includes a Dracula-esque high-collared black and red cape. Black is even stated to be her favorite color and she fights with an axe/scythe. While she was a Dark Magical Girl, after her Heel–Face Turn she became the nicest and most lawful member of the entire cast.
- Dark Magical Girl: Trope Codifier. Since the series covers over a decade and a half of time, it's able to explore the long term effects that such a role would have on a girl's psyche.
- Hair of Gold, Heart of Gold: Even during her tenure as a Dark Magical Girl, she was depicted to be kind and innocent. She then grows up to become the most good character in the series.
- Right Handed Mirror: Firstly, she is a right-handed Dark Magical Girl to the left-handed Nanoha.
- Characters.Puella Magi Madoka Magica Homura Akemi - Dark Magical Girl: She starts the main narrative as a stoic and antagonistic Magical Girl opposing our friendly protagonist, Madoka. The truth is closer to a inversion as she was on Madoka's side from the start as her Mysterious Protector and began the story as her shy friend. Character is from a work of the Magical Girl genre, though this example is a subversion, not an inversion.
- Fanfic.Skylight Pretty Cure - Dark Magical Girl: Cure Crow is the dark magical girl of the Sanctuarians, having been emotionally corrupted by them. Character is from a fanfic of a MG work (Pretty Cure), though this example needs more context on how she is "emotionally corrupted" (PCE).
- Manga.Tokyo Mew Mew - Dark Magical Girl: Retasu begins as more of a Chaotic Neutral Magical Girl; motivated by loneliness and fear, the same emotions as the classic DMG, she strikes out at anyone who might learn or expose her secret and hates herself for it. In the 4Kids dub, Renee (Zakuro) pretends she's a Dark Magical Girl and siding with the aliens only to turn on them, though this doesn't make sense upon examination. Character is from a work of the MG genre. Has the "angst" part but no "foil / rival" part.
- Western Animation - DuckTales (2017): Magica's Living Shadow was a oneshot villain in the 1987 series who proved to be Eviler than Thou, necessitating Magica to pull an Enemy Mine with Scrooge. Their 2017 counterpart Lena on the other hand, is an abused Dark Magical Girl who is only working as The Mole due to being bound to Magica's will, and she ultimately pulls a Heel–Face Turn (in addition to being Webby's best friend). The work is not of the MG genre.
- BrokenBird.Video Games: In Fire Emblem: Genealogy of the Holy War, there's Brigid of Jungby, Ishtar of Friege, Altena of Thracia (or, better said, of Leonster); either Tailtiu or Ethnia of Friege (by the end of their Kill the Cutie years); Silvia's daughter Lene, her expy Laylea, Larcei's expy Creidne (but not Larcei herself) fit in as well. In the meantime Tailtiu's daughter, Tine/Ethnia's daughter Linda, mix this with Shrinking Violet, but ultimately they get much better. Fire Emblem is not of the MG genre. Doubles as a Broken Bird ZCE.
- Characters.Aladdin The Series - Dark Magical Girl: She's a foil for Jasmine as a strong-willed and ambitious young woman who's in love with Aladdin but she's the heir to magical power instead of political. Ultimately she does a Heel–Face Turn. The work is not of the MG genre.
- Characters.Buffyverse Faith Lehane - Dark Magical Girl: She's a loner foil for the friendly and perky Buffy. She looks up to an arc villain as a father-figure. She's redeemed from evil with The Power of Friendship. She even managed to be close friends with Buffy for a short while. Not an MG.
- Characters.Child Of The Storm Harrys Friends - Dark Magical Girl: With Psychic Powers instead of magic, but otherwise a textbook example, and a Tyke Bomb to boot. Tyke Bomb with Psychic Powers. Misuse.
- Characters.Doctor Strange Supporting Characters - Dark Magical Girl: Not as dark as Dormmamu, but still warped although not evil. Disqualifies the "foil" and "MG" aspects of the trope.
- Characters.Elfen Lied Lucy - Used to Be a Sweet Kid: She started out as a kind-hearted, but shy little girl, but through enough torment, crippling loneliness, and a psychotic inner voice, became an Ax-Crazy mass murderer bent on killing all humans. Potholed to "crippling loneliness", emphasizing only the "angst" part rather than the MG part (the primary requirement).
- Characters.Kiss Of The Rose Princess - Dark Magical Girl: She's working for The Dark Side, and is able to use the same abilities of summoning her knights just like Anis. "MG" part is not present in the example.
- Characters.Lady Death - Dark Magical Girl: A magical girl in service to the Big Bad? Check. Endures some emotional abuse from her mother? Check. Ultimately pulls a Heel–Face Turn and helps the heroes out at the end? Double check. The character is not from a work of the MG genre. Just "female character with magic".
- Characters.Naruto Gaara - Dark Magical Girl: Gender Inverted. He's a lonely antagonistic foil for Naruto who becomes a good guy and a friend after his defeat in Part I. Just "antagonistic foil who later becomes an ally".
- Characters.One Piece Nico Robin - Dark Magical Girl: While first appearing as a Dark Action Girl, an essential part of her Freudian Excuse for the more morally ambiguous things she did was the fact that she has been alone, hunted and constantly in fear of betrayal for about 20 years before the series began. The fact that the Straw Hats expressed unconditional love and friendship towards her made her into a better, less treacherous person. A non-MG has a Freudian Excuse. Misuse.
- Characters.Steven Universe Spinel - Dark Magical Girl: Is a cute, young-looking gem who can beat up the Crystal Gems in just the span of a one minute song despite not being designed to be a fighter. She also initially starts out as an antagonist who tries destroying the Earth and is revealed to have deep-seated abandonment issues from being left behind to rot in Pink Diamond's garden for 6 millenia. Check the bolded part of the example.
- Characters.The Owl House Amity Blight: Character is a witch / girl that can use magic.
- Dark Magical Girl: Fits the bill pretty well: Lonely Rich Kid? Check. Dark and Troubled Past, specifically related to her family situation as a bonus? Check. Sour Outside, Sad Inside? Check. Craves approval from the Big Bad? Not directly, but her desire to join the Emperor's Coven counts. Sees the light because of her Magical Girl Foil? Ooh, double check. Yup, she passes the test.
- Foil: She is one to Luz, specifically the Dark Magical Girl to her Magical Girl both start the series as insecure, lonely, and miserable young bookworms with a love of magic who eventually find happiness over the course of the show, but otherwise the two of them are in many ways complete opposites, Luz found happiness after leaving her old life behind for something new, while Amity finds hers by reevaluating the life she already had, while Luz is an out and proud nerd, Amity is something of a Closet Geek, Luz is very much a Genki Girl Cloudcuckoolander troublemaker while Amity is much more restrained, despite her own issues and status as a witch "normal" and initially rather uptight, and when it comes to magic Luz is the Performer to Amity's Technician. It's actually these differences that make them such a great team as they are able to teach each other a number of valuable lessons, with Amity learning how to relax and enjoy life along with not blindly trusting, obeying, or following authority.
- Characters.Yu Gi Oh ZEXAL Tron Family - Dark Magical Girl: Not in the literal sense, but plays this narrative role to a T, being a gentle but tragic figure forced into rivalry with the protagonist due to his horrible circumstances. The first sentence is a misuse, non-MG red flag.
- ContrastingSequelAntagonist.Western Animation: DMG potholes refer to what the character goes through regardless of whether they are an MG or not.
- Steven Universe': Lapis Lazuli was the antagonist of a two-part Wham Episode that begins the show's Cerebus Syndrome. While extremely powerful, she was a Woobie, Destroyer of Worlds who took the Dark Magical Girl path of being redeemed by Steven's friendship. She started off lashing out in anger, but once good she proved to be something of a Deadpan Snarker.
- Star vs. the Forces of Evil: While all the previous villains were monsters (or half-monster in Meteora's case), the fourth season's villain, Mina Loveberry, is a Fantastic Racist who wants to genocide them all. She also doesn't really have any motives to benefit herself, instead being devoted to the Mewni royal family (or at least, its ancestress, Solaria)—given her backstory, she's more like a Dark Magical Girl without the redemption arc.
- Film.Thor - Dark Magical Girl: Gender-inverted; Loki is a sorcerer who Desperately Craves Affection and who believes that his father loves him less than Thor. Loki yearns for Odin's approval while also being envious of his brother, who is a shining example of Asgardian manhood. Loki's strengths, cunning and magic (the latter is, appropriately for this trope, linked with femininity on Asgard), juxtapose Thor's brute force, and he utilizes them to antagonize his elder sibling. Foil character has angst, is envious of main character, and antagonises said main character. Both characters are not MGs.
- VideoGame.Persona 3: Non-MG characters with fantastic powers / a dark motif.
- Chidori, a telepathic Gothic Lolita whose power is to heal others by draining her own life, and who has known the day she would die since gaining her Persona.
- Although a heroic example, Metis from The Answer gets extremely unhappy when it is even suggested she be left alone. It helps that her main color motif is black.
- Did We Just Have Tea with Cthulhu?: While Elizabeth isn't evil, she is still one of the most deadly foes in the game and the motivations of her and Igor are left highly ambiguous. However in the Updated Re-release, the protagonist has the delightful option of escorting the princess of darkness around town on several innocent dates where Elizabeth's lack of knowledge on human social behaviour causes hilarity to ensue. For bonus points, you even get to sleep with her, and unlike the other romance options, there is no doubt whatsoever what happened during the Fade to Black.
- Wrestling.Angela Fong - Dark Magical Girl: Black Lotus, who isn't physical enough to be an Action Girl, but is dark and manipulative enough to fill this role. She also has personal motivations for her actions. A wrestler persona, not a Magical Girl.
- Wrestling.Ember Moon - Dark Magical Girl: Her heel persona as Athena fit quite close to this. There are also certain supernatural elements to her character on NXT that evoke this too, even if she is presented as a face. A wrestler persona, not a Magical Girl.
- Fanfic.Pretty Cure Balls To The Wall - Dark Magical Girl: Dietricha, otherwise known as Cure Reich, is a Nazi Pretty Cure. Context boils down to "this magical girl is evil". However, according to the trope description, the character is required to be sympathetic or an Anti-Villain, so the example is misuse.
- AChildShallLeadThem.Western Animation: 13-year-old Elyon Brown aka Queen Elyon from W.I.T.C.H. becomes this after a brief stint as a Dark Magical Girl. Contextless pothole
- Anime.Cyber Team In Akihabara - Dark Magical Girl: Tsubame Commented out ZCE.
- Anime.Fairy Musketeers - Dark Magical Girl: Gretel Commented out ZCE.
- Anime.Mahou Shoujo Taisen - Dark Magical Girl: One appears in Rin Kobari's story arc, hinting that it's not all fun and games in this world. ZCE
- BFS.Literature: In Nick Perumov's Keeper of the Swords cycle, Dark Magical Girl Sylvia gets to wield a Flammberg that has magic that in Sylvia's hands gives it a properties of a Laser Blade, including near-zero wielding weight (but not for the ones hit). Contextless pothole.
- Characters.A Game Of Gods Infinities Champions - Playing with Syringes: As Magical Amber. Commented out ZCE + contextless pothole.
- Characters.Blackbird 2018 - Dark Action Girl: A textbook example. Also technically a Dark Magical Girl, though the more sympathetic elements common to that trope are so far not in evidence. ZCE + contextless pothole.
- Characters.Fire Emblem The Blazing Blade The Eight Legends - Chekhov's Gunman: He defeated the leader of the dragons, but sealed her away instead of killing her since she was an Anti-Villain. Said leader? None other than Idunn. To say nothing of his role in Champion's Sword... Contextless pothole.
- Characters.Game Theory Lyrical Nanoha:
- Dark Magical Girl: Can be thought of as an inversion. Fate convinces Nanoha to join her and Precia, and then Nanoha is almost completely separated from her friends and family. ZCE
- Dark Magical Girl: Defied; the fic's premise revolves around the fact that Precia acts nicer to Fate, which prevents most of the standard DMG tropes. There's also the fact that Fate convinces the hero to join her side. ZCE
- Characters.Harry Potter And The Methods Of Rationality - Dark Magical Girl: Parodied. She imagines herself to be this and plays up the role after staging a fake dark ritual and "sacrificing her soul" to Harry Potter. ZCE
- Characters.Jellyneo Random Roleplay - Dark Magical Girl Commented out ZCE.
- Characters.Quiz Nanairo DREAMS - Dark Magical Girl Blank ZCE
- Characters.The Princess 99 - Dark Magical Girl Commented out ZCE.
- Characters.Yuru Yuri - Dark Magical Girl Commented out ZCE.
- ComicBook.Scion - Dark Magical Girl: Mai Shen Commented out ZCE.
- Film: The Dazzlings from My Little Pony: Equestria Girls – Rainbow Rocks. Sunset Shimmer from the first movie is often thought of as this, as well though since her Heel–Face Turn at the end of EQG and its confirmation in Rainbow Rocks, she no longer counts. Then you have Midnight Sparkle in My Little Pony: Equestria Girls – Friendship Games... Contextless, chained potholes (or sinkholes). Doubles as an Evil Is Sexy ZCE.
- EvilerThanThou.Western Animation - Ben 10: Hex ended up being betrayed by his niece and Bastard Understudy Charmcaster in her debut appearance. Contextless pothole.
- Fanfic.Oneiroi Series - Dark Magical Girl: Yes, Deirdre's this too. One of the rare examples where one character has both sides, though she leans further towards being a Dark Magical Girl. Commented out ZCE.
- Literature.Magical Girls 2018 - Dark Magical Girl: Rico. Commented out ZCE.
- Manga.Pretear - Dark Magical Girl: In the anime - Fenrir, aka Takako, aka Mikage; also, to some extent, Mawata while under her influence. In the manga - anyone possessed by Takako, especially her main host, Natsue. ZCE
- Series.Magic X Warrior Magi Majo Pures - Dark Magical Girl: Shiori is a villain for the first part of the series. ZCE
- VideoGame.La Pucelle: ZCEs
- Dark Magical Girl: Princess Eclair.
- Dark Magical Girl: Demon Overlord Prier.
- VideoGame.Magical Chaser Stardust Of Dreams - Dark Magical Girl: Princess Meteor and Bibin, just as they were in their respective shows. ZCE
- Main.Always Female - Dark Magical Girl Found in an index.
- Main.Stock Japanese Characters - Dark Magical Girl: A Magical Girl, or rival thereof, who is quite often a Broken Bird with a Dark and Troubled Past. Found in an index. Reliance on potholes.
- Main.Womanliness As Pathos - Dark Magical Girl: A pretty girl with magical powers but is overcome with loneliness and other terrible emotions. Found in an index. Wrong definition.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 6th 2023 at 6:48:04 AM
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
for Magical Girl? I'd say so.
Killing is my business
Oddly enough, I can't find Lena in the trope page, nor is the trope listed in her character sheet at all, even in the history check for both pages. Either way, she still fits as the character she's a foil of, Webby, is an otherwise Ideal Hero despite being a Badass Normal than a magical girl. And the narrative beats and character arc is exactly like the trope in all other aspects.
Cut this one.
Not inaccurate, nor is it a particularly bizarre implication.
She's not magical herself, but she is involved with magic and magical beings, and they're still foils. Not familiar with the show, so I'm not in a proper position to judge myself.
"I'll show you fear, there is no hell, only darkness." My twitter
The Lena one comes from an example about her mother, Magica, where Lena is labeled a Dark Magical Girl. It's the first example in the 2nd folder of the wick check.
Why is Lena a valid example, despite the fact that the person she's meant to be a foil for isn't a Magical Girl herself / doesn't fit the Magical Girl archetype? Does that not just make her an Anti-Villain or Shadow Archetype? Also, I don't know the work but going off the character sheet (and Webby's character sheet), I'm not seeing anything that suggests that Lena and Webby are even meant to be Foils. In fact, on Foil.Ducktales 2017, Lena's listed to be a foil of Louie. From what I gather, Lena's a Living Shadow of her mother Magica who temporarily becomes a Living Shadow of her friend Webby before becoming a real person. But that's about it.
And why would Sadira count as a valid example if Jasmine isn't a Magical Girl? Or is "being associated with magic without being magical or superpowered yourself" enough to have Jasmine from Aladdin fit the Magical Girl archetype? I wouldn't say so, but because the archetype isn't clearly defined, who's to say?
Which is the point I was making by pointing out these examples. I'm not here to litigate which one is or isn't, but to show that we don't have firm enough outlines of either archetype to consistently do so, which is why we have had a noted misuse problem with Dark Magical Girl going on for over a decade
.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 29th 2023 at 12:51:17 PM
Killing is my business
Webby is the one Lena bounds with, the one that makes Lena comes out of her shell, and the one that ultimately motivates her for her Heel–Face Turn, exactly like the Magical Girl does to a DMG in a typical MG story. Both consider each other their best friend, and their personalities explicitly contrast and compliment each other. Also note that Foil itself can be misused, especially when it's "these characters from the same work act like each other despite not having a significant relationship to each other" like the one the apparent Louie/Lena one.
The example on the wick check is just a poorly written one.
Edited by Rynnec on Jul 29th 2023 at 11:23:09 AM
"I'll show you fear, there is no hell, only darkness." My twitter
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Would there be a problem if we expanded the definition a bit to focus on the archetype without the character necessarily contrasting with another (i.e., expanding the trope to cover the second bullet point instead of just the first)?
This isn't a vote in favor of that; I'll probably just hold off on voting for anything (including retracting my rename vote) until the current discussion is sorted out, especially if a wick check for Magical Girl discovers that it has its own problems. I was just wondering if anyone more familiar with the trope could provide some insight on the matter since the fact that I'm not that familiar with the trope means I'd prefer to defer to someone else on whether that would be good or bad.
Edit: Neglected to mention that I don't have a problem with broadening this thread's scope to cover Magical Girl if a wick check is done for it as well.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 30th 2023 at 3:10:02 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Berserk Button: misusing Berserk Button
What would the wick check even cover, though?
One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I'm guessing to see if it experienced similar Trope Decay that misuses the trope to refer to any girl who uses magic despite being more specific than that. I'm not 100% sure, though; it would help if those who mentioned doing a wick check could be more specific on what to look for.
Edit: OK, I looked at amathieu's analysis of the Trope Decay and if the issue is that the definition given on the Magical Girl page doesn't completely match the preexisting term, since the end of the description says what doesn't count without giving the specifics on what does count despite how long it is, then it seems like the wick check would be to see how it's being used in general.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 30th 2023 at 10:31:31 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
As I always understood it Dark Magical Girl requires the character to be motivated by loneliness and isolation, they can't just be any Evil Counterpart to a Magical Girl.
She / Her
![[tup]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/thumbs_up_emote.png "[thumb up]"){kind=small}
to renaming it. EDIT: And, if Magical Girl does have issues, then I agree with giving it a Wick Check and (if needed) TRS.
Edited by RandomTroper123 on Jul 31st 2023 at 1:13:55 AM
I'm working on a wick check of Magical Girl here
Another long post. Get your reading glasses out, folks.
General wick check to see how Magical Girl is being used. Since I'm just trying to check usage, some examples that are PCE weren't sorted as such if they (or the context around them) gave a hint as to how the troper that put it there was conceptualizing Magical Girl.
Checked 80 which was slightly more than needed, because a lot of them (15) were mentions in descriptions or other examples that didn't say much. The largest plurality was using the term in lieu of Magical Girl Genre, which was expected given that's how Magical Girl is written. The second plurality (14) were just people equating it and Magical Girl Warrior. Other examples that didn't make up a clear archetype of their own stressed different aspects, specifically transformation, being able to use magic/powers, wearing a fancy costume, and being associated to witches. All but the witch link are already part of the Magical Girl Warrior.
In practice, when people use Magical Girl to describe an actual character, they're just conflating it with Magical Girl Warrior, i.e. a heroine who fights evil in a frilly costume using magical powers that more often than not require her to transform. That said, similar to Magical Girl, Magical Girl Warrior's description is much more focused on describing the evolution of this as a subgenre than describing the consistent themes that Dark Magical Girl is meant to distort/reflect (which without, also ends up making Magical Girl Warrior too similar to Magic Knight, as evidenced by Magic Knight specifying that The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship are key to differentiating between the two).
All of which is to say that currently, Magical Girl (when being used as a trope and not a genre page) is a Super-Trope that is fully redundant with one of its main subtropes. This isn't to say that the two are the same in media, but that our page does such a poor job of explaining and differentiating between the two that on this site, they're virtually the same.
While I was checking, I thought that things could be salvaged if we split Magical Girl into Magical Girl Genre, a genre page and index, and "Magical Girl Classic", a character archetype trope specifically for the original conceptualization that is still popular in Japan but far less so in the west, where Magical Girl Warrior has all but subsumed it thanks to Sailor Moon. Pulling from Dark Magical Girl's and Write a Magical Girl Series, it'd be something like:
Magical Girl Warrior as a subtrope can then be better specified to focus on being about a costumed superhero with a Secret Identity, who transforms to fight for justice against evil bad guys. And Dark Magical Girl can keep its definition more or less in tact, just emphasizing more that the character needs to embody twisted or deconstructed depictions of The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship to count as a proper Shadow Archetype and not just an Evil Counterpart. Whether we'd disambig Magical Girl to create the two splits or keep its name and just rework the definition would have to be decided, too.
The only issue with that plan is that Cute Witch is currently claiming to be "Magical Girl Classic". Oddly enough Majokko, which is "witch girl" in Japanese and what the Cute Witch says to be covering, is a redirect to Magical Girl. So I did a wick check on Cute Witch too, to see how it was being used. Ignoring the 50% ZCE/uninformative potholes, the vast majority of usage is just to point out a character is a witch or to say that this witch character / person dressed as a witch is cute, which is either redundant to Hot Witch or like so many "Character + Hot" tropes before it, isn't tropeworthy. Only 2/60 examples even mentioned Magical Girl. So I think it'd be ok to take the description of Cute Witch for a new Magical Girl Classic trope and merge Cute Witch into Hot Witch.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 31st 2023 at 12:30:11 PM
Nintendo Fanatic Extraordinaire
I do like a Magical Girl Classic trope.
It would include examples of Cute Witch who are prepubescent.
Kirby is awesome.
Summarizing the actionable steps from this post since it's long for folks to consider:
- Split Magical Girl into a genre index (Magical Girl Genre) and a character archetype trope (Magical Girl Classic) described something along the lines of "a heroic young girl, typically coded as being a princess or associated with nobility, who either discovers she has magical abilities or is given magical powers and uses them to solve problems in her day to day life in service of The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship"
- Whether that means disambiguating Magical Girl or keeping the name for the new archetype and just rewriting should be decided by a larger consensus
- Keep Dark Magical Girl mostly in tact, but limit it to Shadow Archetypes whose story arc / theming distort, subvert, or twist the ideas of The Power of Love and The Power of Friendship. Just generalized angst is not enough. Should be noted that this isn't all that different from how the trope is already written. We'd just be more explicit about requiring the comparison.
- Tweak Magical Girl Warrior's description, relocating some of the genre info to Magical Girl Genre and emphasizing the superheroine, transformation, Secret Identity, fighting for justice against evil aspects that differentiate it from Magical Girl
- Take the description of Cute Witch and add it to the new Magical Girl Classic trope, and either cut Cute Witch or merge it into Hot Witch
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 31st 2023 at 12:12:59 PM
(she/her)
I'd rather tackle Cute Witch and Hot Witch in a separate thread and keep this to Magical Girl and Dark Magical Girl because that seems to be be simpler and easier to process.
Edited by MacronNotes on Jul 31st 2023 at 12:05:41 PM
Macron's notes
Cute Witch has to be involved because it says it is Magical Girl. The specifying of Magical Girl's definition can't really happen without addressing it. That's why I did a wick check for it too.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 31st 2023 at 12:11:29 PM
the Retromancer
- to Magical Girl Genre
- to Magical Girl Classic, but I'm afraid the name will be confused with what is now a Magical Girl Warrior.
- I'm still not really convinced Dark Magical Girl is an archetype that is exclusive to the genre.
- To me Cute Witch is a pretty straigtforward aversion of Wicked Witch and also own archetype for children shows, so I'd rather leave it be but shift the center in the description around.
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
Also, I feel that the type of Cute Witch described as an older form of Magical Girl is just one type, considering the concept of non-ugly and non-evil witches (which, as previously mentioned, were designed to contrast with stereotypical ugly Wicked Witches) isn't exclusive to Japanese media, as seen by the various folders for non-Japanese media indicating that the trope is defined more narrowly than usage.
Maybe we can move the current definition of Cute Witch to Magical Girl Classic (alongside the other text proposed for that page, for magical girls who aren't witches) and reuse the Cute Witch name for a broader trope about the broader, non-Japan-specific concept.
I think Hot Witch's description would at least need to be adjusted, since it refers to the Magical Girl-specific current definition of Cute Witch, and for some reason contradicts itself on the relationship between the two tropes, first saying they're directly related by saying "This is what the Cute Witch often grows up to be, if she grows up" followed by the next paragraph saying they're not directly related by saying "The Hot Witch is sometimes not a Cute Witch. The Cute Witch is a Magical Girl who wears the stereotypical (or maybe just traditional) paraphernalia of witches and is cute in the "adorable" or Japanese kawaisa sense."
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 31st 2023 at 12:51:37 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
Hot Witch's description is likely struggling because of the disconnect between what Cute Witch's description says it is and what it's title implies it to mean + its usage on the site, i.e. a normal witch that's cute.
I'm not 100% opposed to reworking Cute Witch into a trope about good witches as a specific aversion of Wicked Witch, but that's going to have to be done from scratch since most examples found in the wick check don't focus on that and I think it'd also require a rename to emphasize that this is about morality more so than appearance, even if the two coincide in the trope since Beauty Equals Goodness. Also need to double check it's not redundant with Good Witch Versus Bad Witch.
Edited by amathieu13 on Jul 31st 2023 at 2:02:47 PM
the Retromancer
If moving the Japanese archetype from Cute Witch to Magical Girl Classic is on the table then let's do that.
I really don't think Hot Witch should have anything to do with Magical Girl.
TroperWall / WikiMagic Cleanup
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
If Cute Witch more about appearance than morality, we can focus primarily on appearance if focusing on both would require extra work. I'd be fine with that, and it would still mean contrasting with the stereotypical depictions of witches as ugly. That would still mean making the definition more closely match the name.
Yeah, I agree that Hot Witch is unrelated to Magical Girl. I was mostly focusing on cleaning up the description to clear up the inconsistency I mentioned.
Edited by GastonRabbit on Jul 31st 2023 at 1:59:30 PM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
reconsidering
Dark Magical Girl is very much a thing. Regardless of what else is decided between Magical Girl/ Magical Girl Classic/ Magical Girl Warrior, this is a well-established trope and is used and referenced in lots of anime and anime-inspired works. Though the description here is terrible, and rambles all over the place.
This character type is not necessarily an evil counterpart, but a dark counterpart to the archetypal "cute magical girl warrior" type. She is a teenage girl, feminine and physically cute, who has the same type of powers as the good guy magical girls. However, rather than heroic and optimistic, she is cynical, cold and disillusioned— generally, she's also got a tragic backstory and a Broken Bird attitude. She is often literally darker— in costume, hair color, etc— Dark Feminine to the standard heroine's Light Feminine. She may be The Rival, an actual bad guy, or just a darker, more mysterious rouge, but she'll almost always be saved and befriended by the end of the story. Basically, she's who the magical girl could have been if life was much less kind to her.
I would say this does either need to take place in a setting with actual magical girls in it, or be very clearly set up as a reference to that type of character/setting. Nico Robin is not at any point positioned as a magical girl, nor contrasted with one. Faith, I could see an argument for, though it's an interesting usage.
I think the description needs improvement, cause the current is long and unfocused. Maybe a page image change also— to explicitly counter the Dark with the standard magical girl.
Edited by Tremmor19 on Aug 1st 2023 at 3:28:13 PM
Wicked Witch isn't just "ugly witch" though. It's a specific archetype that includes ugliness, but only in service of reinforcing the evilness of the character. Hence why it's the "wicked" witch. Being ugly isn't even a requirement going off the final sentence of the "Appearance" section of its description. An actual inversion of the archetype would similarly centralize goodness, with being attractive secondary or done to reinforce it. As the Wicked Witch is depicted as being old/crone-like, ugly, cruel, and most importantly evil the good witch is youthful, beautiful, kind, and most importantly good.
I think the remaining disagreement on Dark Magical Girl's tropeworthiness is that while we know the Magical Girl genre uses Shadow Archetype a lot, to the point that it's a frequent and expected part of the genre, is that truly different enough from Shadow Archetype to justify its existence? Is the genre-specific version of what otherwise is already a trope tropeworthy? This was also brought up in the previous TRS thread that was stalled. No one is saying that Shadow Archetype isn't a popular trope in the genre. What is being said is that does not necessarily elevate it to the level of being a tropeworthy subtrope. And the all over the place usage would suggest that to be so, too.
The site does not have a firm policy on the line between meaningful / not meaningful and tends to take it on a case by case basis when drawing that line. Me personally, I lean more towards "if it's not a consistent and unique portrayal for the majority of examples, it's redundant," which again, the current usage would typically have me against it (and I was all in for a disambig earlier). However, now that I've looked into things, I feel like DMG has been done dirty by Magical Girl being so ill-defined, given that its definition is dependent on Magical Girl having a clear definition as a Shadow Archetype. I think there's a shot that if we focus Magical Girl's archetype, Dark Magical Girl's archetype will also focus, so I'm willing to see that one through.
Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 1st 2023 at 4:39:34 AM
I was going to second the notion of leaving Cute Witch and Hot Witch for another thread, but that was because I was thinking Cute Witch wasn't anime-specific or at least was broader than the Magical Girl Classic. The description, though, definitely seems to say that this is the original Magical Girl, full stop.
Notably, at the time of the oldest copy of Cute Witch in the Internet Archive, the Magical Girl page seemed to be specifically describing the Magical Girl Warrior, despite suggesting that a Magical Girl "is usually either a Magic Warrior or a Cute Witch", the former of which had the description Magical Girl Warrior has today. (Dark Magical Girl, meanwhile, had much the same description it has today but with a number of changes in the latter part.) Hot Witch was only split out in 2009, and even some of the people supporting its existence seemed to think it was what we might consider The Same, but More Specific of Cute Witch, showing just how much people had a wrong idea of what the latter trope was even way back then. (Though I do think there can be a distinction made between "hot" as in "sexualized" and "cute" as in "adorable", especially for prepubescent, or civilized-animal, examples.)
What seems to have happened is that Magical Girl was a Super-Trope that was hard split between its two main archetypes: the more witchy, classical version and the more Henshin Hero version. For whatever reason, that first archetype was given the ambiguous name of Cute Witch, which has led to Trope Decay and misuse despite it being pretty clearly intended to be Magical Girl Classic.
Edited by amathieu13 on Aug 1st 2023 at 4:54:46 AM
Sounds good on paper (he/him)
I never disagreed with this. I said ugliness a stereotypical trait of such characters, not that it's universal. Admittedly, I could have probably worded that better since I posted that shortly after getting out of bed (and the fact that I'm still feeling tired probably isn't helping).
Edited by GastonRabbit on Aug 1st 2023 at 4:16:05 AM
Patiently awaiting the release of Paper Luigi and the Marvelous Compass.
