Jerks Are Worse Than Cleanup Threads

Hey. Is anyone still willing to clean up this trope. I have seen a few hate sinks that don't actually qualify for this trope.

You're allowed to just delete misuse, but you can bring the specific examples here to make sure...

Okay hold on. I went through the animated film section and I do see some misuse. I do think these examples are just hate sinks and are supposed to be hated as much as the villains are.

• Beauty and the Beast: In the first half of the movie, the Beast (The Anti-Hero) imprisons Belle, which makes him a worse person than Gaston (the villain, who was harmless at first, and his obnoxiousness was Played for Laughs). However, in the second half of the movie, the Beast learns to genuinely love Belle, respecting her choices and letting her go, while Gaston turns into a Stalker with a Crush who blackmails Belle into marriage, even threatening to lock Belle's father in an insane asylum. There are still many fans who think of the Beast as a domestic abuser and Gaston as a Laughably Evil guy who is a saint compared to him, completely overlooking Gaston's villainous actions in the second part of the movie. Gaston is the main antagonist of the film while the beast is supposed to be going through a Heel–Face Turn.

• The Incredibles: Syndrome is a Laughably Evil Psychopathic Manchild whose hamminess makes him quite memorable and entertaining to watch, even as he commits heinous acts such as murdering dozens of superheroes or trying to abduct a toddler. Gilbert Huph, meanwhile, is shown to be a despicable Corrupt Corporate Executive who encourages his employees to avoid helping clients with their insurance claims to ensure low payouts and high profits for the stockholders. He shows a total Lack of Empathy towards a mugging occurring right outside his window and threatens to fire Bob if the latter tries to intervene. Many audience members were quite satisfied when Bob threw him through a wall.Huph is a Hate Sink. He's supposed to be disliked.

• Mulan: Chi-Fu is such a misogynistic, obnoxious, Obstructive Bureaucrat and sniveling fraidy-cat that you would end up hating him more than the actual villain (who shows zero misogyny towards Mulan), who burns down several villages during his conquest of China and is heavily implied to kill the civilians he comes across (including children). Chi-Fu is so pompous and ungrateful that even in-universe, nobody can stand him. Even the Emperor detests him so much that after Mulan saves China from the Huns and he offers Mulan Chi-Fu's job when the latter states there are no other positions open. His absence in the sequel would suggest the Emperor fired him anyway despite Mulan turning down his offer. Chi-Fu is a hate sink. He's supposed to be hated.

• Pocahontas II: Journey to a New World: Even though that he's in this movie for less than a minute, you may despise this background character, more than the main villain. Why? Because after Pocahontas saves the life of this English settler, does he thank her? No. He calls her a "bloody savage" and knocks her to the ground. He nearly started an uproar between the Powhatans and the settlers and the worst part is that he was never punished for being a jerk to Pocahontas. This is an obvious Hate Sink.

Yeah, all of those do sound like the audience is meant to hate them, except for the first case which just misinterprets a few things.

The first sounds more like Draco in Leather Pants? And I really doubt that sounds like a common reaction to the film.

That’s why I want it deleted. It sounds to me that people just want to whitewash Gaston’s actions. I’ll delete the misuse.

I checked and pulled some of these examples.

• Danny Phantom: While the ghost villains are no doubt evil, they're so entertaining to watch and often have such sympathetic backstories that it's hard to truly hate them. The majority of human characters, however, such as Dash and The Guys In White, are hated for having no such entertaining traits, and only existing to be one-note antagonists. I've watched this show and I do believe that the popular kids such as Dash are supposed to be disliked for their jerkass and shallow personality traits.

• The Fairly OddParents!: Most of the show's villains are very over-the-top in their portrayal and too hilarious to hate. Thus, the most hated characters on the show by far are Timmy's extremely negligent and borderline-abusive parents, who constantly leave him home alone with Vicky and are oblivious to her cruelty, and often give away Timmy's things and spend his college savings without his permission. Few children have to deal with murderous babysitters or delusional schoolteachers in life, but parents who abuse and neglect their children are very common. This one can count since Timmy's parents are usually not portrayed as antagonistic. They are however neglectful, but the audience is supposed to think that they are well-meaning bad parents when really they come off as selfish assholes.

• Family Guy:
  • Stewie is introduced as a homicidal Villain Protagonist who wants to kill his mother and Take Over the World, and this made him the most popular character on the show since the beginning. In later seasons, Peter, Lois, and Brian Took a Level in Jerkass, with Peter and Lois becoming Abusive Parents and Brian being flanderized into a pretentious hypocrite. As a result, all three become controversial characters, with many fans complaining about their unlikable personalities, especially Lois and Brian, who are often accused of being examples of Bitch in Sheep's Clothing. Ironically, the fans who complain about the characters who Took a Level in Jerkass are often the same fans who miss Stewie's evil Card-Carrying Villain personality after he mellows out.This actually counts since you're supposed to side with Peter, Lois and Brian despite them being extremely unlikable in later seasons of the show. However, the last part of the entry comes off as complaining about people liking the original Evil Stewie more than Peter, Lois and Brian. I can see why fans would prefer evil Stewie. At least you weren't supposed to find Stewie sympathetic nor were you supposed to root for him when he did bad things or when he tried to kill his mother. There was a two-parter episode that rightly portrayed Stewie as the villain when he attempted to kill Lois. I'll trim the complaining.

• Lilo & Stitch franchise: Mertle Edmonds was made to be a Hate Sink, being a bullying rival to Lilo, but she's ultimately inconsequential to the main plots of the original film and by extension Lilo & Stitch 2: Stitch Has a Glitch. She has a somewhat more prominent role in Lilo & Stitch: The Series as a source of conflict for the title characters in some episodes, but they're not enough to call her an outright villain. By comparison, Gantu, the most recurring villain of the franchise, hates both title characters because they—especially Stitch—cost him his job in the first film, and he's gotten into fights with both of them in The Series while they went after the experiments. However, The Series also expanded his personality and gave him some sympathetic traits that made him a somewhat likable character, whereas Mertle was more established to be a Jerkass and wasn't given as much sympathetic traits as the giant militaristic alien, which also made fans question why would Lilo want to be her friend. In fact, some fans wished that Mertle was actually destroyed by Hämsterviel and his Leroy army because of how much they despise her. Mertle is supposed to be disliked. This should be gone

• My Life as a Teenage Robot: Vexus is very well liked by fans of the show, for many reasons. Instead, most of the fan's ire is saved for most of the people Jenny has to deal with at High School, such as Vice Principal Razinski, Mr. Mezmer, Don Prima and Pteresa. The only bullies that the fanbase don’t have a bone to pick with (even then, they have their haters) are the Crust Cousins. These characters are hate sinks.

• My Little Pony: Friendship Is Magic: Major villains who are serious threats to Equestria, such as Queen Chrysalis, King Sombra, and Lord Tirek, are extremely popular among the fanbase, both in their role as villains and as potential subjects for a Heel–Face Turn. Meanwhile, much more minor bullies, jerks and annoyances are consistently the targets of much more emphatic hatred.
  • Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon are school bullies who pick on the Cutie Mark Crusaders for not having cutie marks yet. At one point, Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon mock Scootaloo for the fact that she's a pegasus that can't fly, which is the in-universe equivalent of mocking a disabled person for their disability. As a result, Diamond Tiara and Silver Spoon became two of the most hated antagonists in the series. Though they do have a Heel–Face Turn in season 5 (and we see Diamond's Freudian Excuse), this does not change the minds of some fans, believing it's too little too late.
  • Prince Blueblood is a shallow, conceited noble who serves as a narrative obstacle in one of several concurrent threads in the Season 1 finale. He is not portrayed as actually villainous so much as he is selfish, snobbish and rude, and his role in the episode is primarily to be a Prince Charmless and spoil another character's evening, but his abrasive personality, lack of likable qualities and poor treatment of a main character led to the fandom deeply and emphatically detesting him. Fan works afterwards tended to drastically emphasize his pejorative qualities, portraying him as anything from a depraved narcissist to a genuinely evil manipulator, although the fact that he makes no appearance after his debut and is consequently a non-entity for the majority of the show's run means that he eventually largely faded from the fandom's attention as well. I reallly dislike Diamond Tiara (pre season 5) and Blueblood, but not only are they hate sinks, but this reeks of complaining.

• Scooby-Doo: The villains have ranged from petty thieves to outright attempted murderers, but the fans are fine with them since their costumed foolery is fun to watch and they'll be gone by the next episode. The worst Scrappy Doo has done, meanwhile, is make bullheaded decisions and attempt to fight people ten times his size while acting somewhat bratty, and yet he's the one that got a trope named after the collective fandom ire he was saddled with, and at least two continuities went ahead and made him an actual villain to retroactively justify it. Aside from the live action villain version of Scrappy Doo, I believe in keeping this entry. I don't really like Scrappy Doo because he felt out of place, but he isn't a hate sink. He's one of those characters that you weren't supposed to hate, but people hate him anyway...hence him being the Trope namer for The Scrappy.

• South Park: Eric Cartman is a sociopathic Enfant Terrible who is often Laughably Evil, making him very entertaining despite committing such heinous acts such as murdering two innocent people and feeding them to their offspring after processing their corpses through chili over $16.12. That being said, the most dislikable characters in the series are Stephen and Linda Stotch, Butters' Abusive Parents who often ground him over such trivial matters, ignore him when he is in serious danger, and even callously sell him to Paris Hilton for $250 million on one occasion. While Cartman's misdeeds are usually known for being very over-the-top, many people in real-life have dealt with parents just as terrible as Stephen and Linda.Butter's parents are hate sinks.

• SpongeBob SquarePants
  • Mr. Krabs, the resident greedy Jerkass is much more hated than Plankton, the villain and Mr. Krabs's rival. The truth is that both of them have done many nasty things, but Plankton gets the sympathetic Not Evil, Just Misunderstood treatment from fans because he's usually a Harmless Villain, while Mr. Krabs is considered a Designated Hero. And compared to Plankton's cartoonish behavior, Krabs' actions are often emblematic of realistic societal problems such as abusing his workforce in various ways and getting away with it because his only employees have long since stopped caring or love the job so much that they'd work for free, but most infamously tormenting Plankton to the point he wants to commit suicide.
  • In the infamous "A Pal For Gary", while Puffy Fluffy's the antagonist and tried to eat Gary and SpongeBob himself at least once, he's not exactly sentient. On the other hand, SpongeBob ignores Gary’s complaints about Puffy Fluffy, blames him for Fluffy’s actions, orders him to "put Fluffy down" when the latter is clearly about to eat him, and scolds him for driving Fluffy away even though he saved his life. As a result, fans hated him far more than Puffy Fluffy. This can actually count since you're not even supposed to hate Mr. Krabs nor Spongebob.

• In Teen Titans, villains like Slade, Madame Rouge, Blackfire, and Jinx are extremely popular. A non villain that is disliked, however, is Val-Yor. This is due to his blatant racism towards Starfire despite the latter saving his life. It just goes to show that just because someone is a hero, it won't guarantee that they will all be nice people. Val-Yor is a hate sink for his racist behavior towards Starfire, despite him not being a villain.

• Total Drama: The third generation cast brings Scarlett, who at first appears to be a shy, polite, and soft-spoken young woman. It slowly revealed that her polite personality is merely a façade, and she is a Bitch in Sheep's Clothing hiding her sinister and psychotic nature to fool her teammates. Eventually, she tried to blow the island and kill everybody on it in exchange for the prize money, yet still manages to have a decently sized fanbase because of her skills as a villain. In comparison, Amy is just a generic Alpha Bitch who makes the life of her sister Samey a constant hell, making her one of the most hated characters from the cast. She mainly did nothing but abuse her sister in the season, kicking her sister away as they were freefalling and being annoyed that she had a parachute, taking credit for all her sister's accomplishments, and finally turning her team aside Jasmine against Sammy. Sounds like Amy is an antagonist and a hate sink.

• Totally Spies!: While the girls have many supervillains, the most hated character (by the girls and viewers) is Mandy, their Sitcom Arch-Nemesis. Mostly it's because villains are an exaggerated parody of Bond villains too over the top and entertaining to seriously hate while Mandy is a massive Jerkass who loves to ruin girls' lives and appears practically in every episode and girls just cannot get rid of her. Mandy is an asshole and is supposed to be hated.

Edited by MsCC22 on Aug 23rd 2022 at 6:46:46 AM

According to the Laconic: "When the audience hates the jerk(s) more than the baddie(s), in which the former is often a Hate Sink"

But now many examples are being deleted because the jerk character can't be a Hate Sink? This contradicts the laconic

To be fair, laconics are notoriously unreliable.

I checked the main page, and I didn't see anything stating this doesn't qualify if the jerk(s) in question are Hate Sink(s). So, where did you get that from?

Where did I get it from? I mean I'm not the one removing any examples, I'm just arguing against the idea that the laconic is an accurate way to understand the trope.

I get that you're not the one removing examples, I was bringing this up because you started the thread and seem to think that. EDIT: That and, you did imply a couple comments ago that the Laconic for this trope is incorrect.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Sep 29th 2022 at 10:33:14 AM

When I started this thread it was because there were numerous issues with the trope, such as non-jerks being added and people utterly misinterpreting the reaction. It has nothing to do with the current discussion being had.

If Hate Sink aren't banned, fine, though I do feel like I remember that being the case at some point and it might be worth digging into the history to see if I'm just tricking myself or not.

Edited by WarJay77 on Aug 23rd 2022 at 1:19:18 PM

I have no involvement in this thread whatsoever (I'm just lurking) but the crowner ruled against disallowing Hate Sink characters. No idea if people are following that or not.

Edited by MacronNotes on Aug 23rd 2022 at 1:27:21 PM

Oh, I think I remember now. They were (and I guess are?) technically banned because this is an unintentional reaction whereas Hate Sink is fully intentional. But yeah, the page doesn't clarify that and I have no idea if anyone actually cares.

That makes sense, thanks.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Aug 23rd 2022 at 10:31:21 AM

In the Square Peg Round Trope index, it said that the JAWTV trope was being misused from the day it started and that characters that were Hate Sinks didn't qualify. Are hate sinks allowed or not, because I can put back examples.

I don't think they are, at least according to the crowner.

Description may need some help to understand that...

I'd got no horse in this race, but the crowner linked right on this thread has a net negative to "Disallow Hate Sinks", which makes me think a Hate Sink can also be JAWTV, if they otherwise qualify.

Oh yeah, you're right. I was misreading it this whole time, derp...

Mind putting them back then?

I mean, I ain't the one who cut them in the first place.

I agree that Hate Sink examples should be disallowed as greater dislike of character we're supposed to have a greater dislike of is not a meaningful reaction. But that was never a properly established rule.

So I say add them back until cleanup or TRS decide on how/if intentional examples are allowed and thusfar cleanup efforts have voted against excluding Hate Sinks. Any objections?

I say this should be remanded "Insufferability Irrationally Worse Than Villainy" as I've seen idiocy get the same audience reaction as jerkassery and the unintentional part is what stops it from not including all Hate Sink examples. But I've had concerns about the scope about HS. Or are the questions for elsewhere.

They should be put back, yeah.

I agree because I feel they were unfairly deleted.

Edited by RandomTroper123 on Dec 2nd 2022 at 11:29:14 AM