I've managd to trim down most of V3's cross-game examples down to those who interact in UTDP. However, I'm not sure if they serve as foils to each other. I've got a link to the wiki, which has transcripts of their conversations in UTDP, here.
Edited by GoldenCityBird on Sep 3rd 2019 at 10:11:36 AM
TRS Wick Cleaning
Veteran Editor IV
I think Foil.The Big Bang Theory should be looked at. Multiple examples seem like shoehorning singular or meaningless traits like ethnicity or using several characters in a single comparison.
As for V3, I'd remove Kokichi and Himiko as well as Ryoma and Korekiyo. The characters don't interact closely enough.
Edited by Piterpicher on Sep 3rd 2019 at 4:59:19 PM
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
Yup, just taking a quick look at the page, there are some entries that are fairly meaningless character trivia "x likes Star Wars and y doesn't," which is of course not foil-worthy and should be cut. The entries about contrasting personality traits can stay, but the page needs a major rewrite to mention the interactions and how they highlight these traits.
x2 I'll take a look at the wiki later and give my opinion on if it counts.
x3 Good analysis again. Going through the tropes to highlight the ones that seem shoehorned and can be cut and the ones that might work, but just need clarification on the page:
- Armored Villains, Unarmored Heroes: Contrasting appearance alone isn't enough to make a foil. Cut.
- Big Guy, Little Guy: Contrasting physical characteristics aren't enough to make foils without any indication of contrasting personalities. Cut.
- Brother–Sister Team: Characters being opposite gender and siblings doesn't automatically make them foils. Cut.
- Bully and Wimp Pairing: Hmm, I think I know what this is going for; a brutish, antagonistic kid highlighting the traits of a spindly, meek kid. Could work as written, since these two characters are by definition have personality traits opposed to one another and have to interact, which I think gives it a niche away from Brains and Brawn. Leaning toward keep.
- Fat and Skinny: Definitely needs the small description to clarify that the personality contrast part of this trope is what makes them foils, not just the physical descriptions. Keep, but add the clarification about personality.
- Cool Kid-and-Loser Friendship: Iffy on this one. It could work, provided the emphasis is on the loser's socially awkward traits and the cool kid's personable and popular traits, but the two aren't necessarily opposite personalities. Unsure. Could be described to work with the trope.
- Good Angel, Bad Angel: Agreed that this doesn't fit. It's a more interesting and creative way to show a character's internal struggles about morality vs. selfishness, not a pair of characters contrasting another. Cut.
- Hair-Contrast Duo: Thought it was just an appearance trope at first as well, but the personality contrast is there so it counts. We just need to write a description that reminds people and emphasizes the personality contrasts. Keep and add description emphasizing personality contrast.
- Lady and Knight: Just a popular character duo, with no emphasis on the two having contrasting personality traits. Cut.
- Little Guy, Big Buddy: Yup, just an appearance contrast trope, which doesn't belong on a primary characterization trope. Cut.
- Merlin and Nimue: Eh, I don't think it really counts. The requirements for the trope as listed on the page are "two magic users with an age and gender difference, might be romantically involved, and one ends up betraying the other," with nothing saying that they have to be contrasting personalities. Cut.
- Multinational Team: Just being diverse doesn't make them foils. Cut.
- Night and Day Duo: Hmm... Not sure this counts. This is more like a "contrasting power set" or "contrasting symbols" trope, rather than a contrasting personality trope based on the writeup. I might be missing something. Leaning toward cut.
- Opposites Attract: Yup, these two can work as foils, so long as we specify the differences have to be substantial personality differences, not just minor preferences. Keep and add description emphasizing important personality differences.
- Outlaw Couple: Just a duo trope. Not inherently contrasting personalities. Cut.
- Similar Squad: This is meant to be a group of characters that are virtually identical to another group, not one that contrasts with it. Cut.
- Sitcom Arch-Nemesis: Another one of those it can work, but it's not inherent to the trope that the two are contrasting personalities. Might be able to keep, so long as we specify that they must be opposite personalities.
- Vitriolic Best Buds: The second type could work, but I'm not entirely sure. I think the scope of the trope is about people who seem initially opposed to one another being close friends, but pairings of "nice person/mean person" are covered by other tropes. Unsure. Might be able to work if other tropes don't already cover it better?
Edited by ILikeRobots on Sep 3rd 2019 at 8:30:42 AM
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
I've removed Ryoma and Korekiyo. I've only commented out Kokichi and Himiko, as they both survive for quite a while, but they can be removed.
Veteran Editor IV
I've removed examples on TBBT which were about outlier characters in groups or meaningless non-personality traits. I don't think I'm up to rewriting current examples yet, though.
Edited by Piterpicher on Sep 3rd 2019 at 5:51:24 PM
Currently mostly inactive. An incremental game I tested: https://galaxy.click/play/176 (Gods of Incremental)
Purposefully Untitled
Hey, you can repost any misuses of Foil you find in this TLP thread, if you think it'll help you clean up easier. The whole point is to help with the cleanup.
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
I've gone through the pairs of common foils on the main page and deleted those that didn't fit from before. I've hidden those that are more ambiguous and could possibly be rewritten to fit based on the analysis.
Finished giving a bit more context to how the subtropes fit, partly with stuff I wrote and partly with stuff ~War Jay 77 wrote. Gonna make another pass through later on to finish it up, then tackle the last two sections of the common foils folder.
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Should we have a broader "Contrasting Character Duo" trope?
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Aspirant Creativity Wizard
That would be a useful place for the opposite duo tropes that don't rely on personality and interaction to go so they aren't mistaken for foil, now that I think about it. Maybe those could be migrated over there.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Sep 8th 2019 at 1:18:02 AM
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.
Per this, I have a question. If the characters don't interact but in-universe characters bring up the contrast, can they count as a Foil as it shows it's intentional? And/or would it only apply if they exist in the same work, time, and/or setting such they could hypothetically interact such? Or is that Foil as a Discussed Trope?
What about juxtaposition? When the don't necessarily interact but the editing portrays them in a way to show contrast. Would that be enough to prove it intentional enough to count as this trope?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Jul 28th 2020 at 12:32:54 PM
I got a reply from the maker of the Foil Cleanup thread saying it should be interacting only and other discussing the contrast is a Discussed Trope. Juxtaposition like I described sounds like a separate trope.
I'll add this to Square Peg, Round Trope on the 4th per Three-Day Rule unless I hear any objections.
- Foil is often shoehorned to apply to any coincidentally contrasting characters, even from completely separate series. Foils have to interact with each other to emphasize the contrast and show it is intentional. Other talking about their contrast is Foil as a Discussed Trope. Other intentionally contrasting character may fall under Contrasting Sequel Main Character / Contrasting Sequel Antagonist.
![[down]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_down.png "[down]"){kind=icon}
Fixed.
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Aug 1st 2020 at 6:35:04 AM
Based on the discussion in Trope Talk, it sounds more like both interaction-based contrast and juxtaposition-based contrast would be subtropes to the broader Foil supertrope.
Edited by Twiddler on Aug 1st 2020 at 6:41:35 AM
How about this?
- Foil is often shoehorned to apply to any coincidentally contrasting characters, even from completely separate series. Foils have to interact with each other or be juxtaposed in-work to emphasize the contrast and show it is intentional. Other talking about their contrast is Foil as a Discussed Trope. Other intentionally contrasting character may fall under Contrasting Sequel Main Character / Contrasting Sequel Antagonist.
Or are we talking about splitting Foil into separate interaction and juxtaposition based tropes?
Edited by Ferot_Dreadnaught on Aug 1st 2020 at 10:09:03 AM
What happens if we encounter examples we're not sure apply. Do we raise them here or leave them in place until the exact wording of the trope has been finalised?
If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
she/her
From a character page for Warframe, in Octavia's folder:
- Foil: To Titania, fitting since the respective syndicates that provide their quests are on opposite sides:
- Titania's Spellbind grants status immunity to allies and deals crowd control to enemies while Mallet creates a target that deals more damage to enemies the more it's shot at.
- Tribute and Metronome both give buffs but are given in different ways; Tribute requires a certain enemy type to give one of its 4 buffs, while Metronome requires doing certain actions to the beat of the music, all while giving an armor buff while active.
- Lantern and Resonator both charms enemies while dealing damage to them, but Lantern requires an enemy to use it on and makes said enemy invincible while Resonator needs no prerequisites but can be strengthened by Mallet.
- Razorwing and Amp have synergy with their other abilities. Titania being able to cast her other abilities while in Razorwing mode, and Octavia's Amp increasing the damage and range of Mallet if it's in Amp's area of effect.
I'm very skeptical of any entries between different Warframes. For context, they're essentially half-organic robotic bodies that your player character, an Operator, can possess. They almost never have any kind of interaction with each other in the game's story; if a Warframe gets any kind of story relevance, it's a quest that is entirely devoted to that one Warframe, and none of the quests establish any kind of dichotomy between multiple Warframes.
But to delve further into this entry, Octavia is The Bard and Titania is a pixie. Their themes have nothing to do with each other. The part about opposed syndicates is technically true, but it's not something that ever gets much focus, to the point where you can still get Octavia's quest from Cephalon Suda even if she hates your guts and just sent a bunch of robots to kill you in the previous mission. And the actual entries are very weak comparisons. Would anyone object if I cut this?
Edited by Serac on Sep 9th 2020 at 11:44:55 AM
Discarded and Feeling Blue
- Casts a revive spell -
There! I wanted to resurrect this because I came across Foil.Total Drama and a lot of the examples seem very...questionable, micro-analyzing characters who never interacted much or at all and using any excuse to compare them.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
From Foil.Live Action Films:
- The live-action remake of Aladdin clearly establishes Aladdin and Jafar as foils to each other, as Jafar reveals that he was once a street thief like Aladdin (stealing a pendant Aladdin had previously borrowed from Jasmine to demonstrate his skills), to the point that Jafar uses his pickpocketing skills to steal the lamp from Aladdin. However, while Aladdin and Jafar each express a desire for respect beyond their humble origins, Aladdin never seeks that respect at the expense of others and is content to just be comfortable rather than all-powerful, while Jafar will never be satisfied unless he is at the top of the table and controls everyone else.
Lots of coffee
Oh, funny enough, I was about to necro this thread cuz of Total Drama, but while I'm here, I may as well go through ~War Jay 77's above link since I'm on a TD kick lately. (And ping her for feedback, LOL)
- Courtney and Heather: I would say they fulfill the same role on their team, but I'm on the fence if they count because they don't really interact much until TDWT. I think Courtney's uptight, orderly attitude contrasts Heather's more impulsive "I'll just do what I want" shtick, but the show doesn't emphasize that much.
- Gwen and Owen: I would say keep. They're the finalists of TDI for a reason — their attitudes are deliberately contrasted and they have the interactions to show it.
- Harold and Cody: Cut. They're different kinds of Geeks but they don't contrast against each other. They only interact in TDWT in their boy band and even that's not really explored.
- Noah and Owen: Keep. They have a consistent Odd Friendship that makes their differences clear.
- Trent and Courtney: Cut. They almost never interact.
- The Alejandro text wall:
- Duncan: A lot of this feels like incidental comparisons. While the two do interact a lot, I don't think there's much done to showcase their differences.
- Harold: Cut, they barely get screen time together.
- Heather: Definite keep. Alejandro is set up as the "male Heather" but with a much smoother, more subtle strategy, and they bring out each other's weaknesses in a way any other character does. Honestly Alejandro and Heather are such blatant foils that it's hard to make an argument for any of these other characters by comparison.
- Owen: Mmmmmmmaybe? They are very different and they do interact a lot, but I don't know if they highlight those differences in any particularly new way.
- Justin: Cut, they barely interact.
- Courtney: Hmmm. While they're both The Ace, Alejandro targets Courtney as an ally because she's emotionally unstable from her breakup, calling attention to a flaw he doesn't have. But that's just manipulation, not narrative juxtaposition. Courtney is just another pawn.
- Cameron and Lightning: Keep, if only because they're specifically contrasted against each other in the last few episodes to set up the "brain versus brawn" finale.
- The Jo text wall:
- Duncan: Ehhh, I lean towards cut. They do get along in All-Stars for a while, but I don't know if it really highlights their differences.
- Heather: Pretty much the same as the Duncan issue — some interactions showing some contrast, but not a lot of time to explore the differences.
- Lightning: It might need a rewrite to be more clear, but I think it could stay. They're allies and it shows their different approaches to victory with Jo being more thoughtful but cruel, and Lightning being impulsive but not too mean until the final few episodes.
- Scott: Maybe? They're the two main antagonists yes, with very different strategies, but I don't recall how much contrast they get. But I also don't remember Revenge too well so I'll give it the benefit of the doubt. It would help if these entries actually, you know, described the characters' interactions.
- The Mal text wall:
- Alejandro: Probably a keep? They have a conflict specifically to establish Mal as a bigger threat and exploit Alejandro's weakness.
- Scott: Eh, I lean against it. Mal did interact with Scott but by then Scott was not the same level of threat he was in Revenge at all, and the entry's going off that characterization.
- Mike: Obvious keep, it's the entire point of their Jekyll & Hyde dynamic.
- Scott:
- Alejandro and Heather: Cut, he barely interacts with either of them.
- Duncan: They get one or two scenes together and they share a Love Interest but I don't think that's enough.
- Dave and Jasmine / Shawn and Sky: They share the same issue and I guess I might lean towards keep cuz these two romantic arcs (Dave/Sky and Jasmine/Shawn) are set up as parallels, and the characters play similar roles in the finale. I saw a better argument for Dave and Shawn as foils though, as they're both the main pursuers in the relationship and their approaches are compared and contrasted.
- Sugar:
- Amy: Cut, they almost never interact.
- Ella: Keep, they have frequent interactions that show off how Ella is so nice and trusting while Sugar is cruel and trusts nobody.
- Rodney: Keep, it's superficial characteristics and the characters don't interact that much to show off the differences.
- Sky: Maybe? They do have a team-up in an episode or two to show the differences but it doesn't feel like a focal thing.
- Kelly/Taylor and Dwayne/Junior: IIRC, they interact and the teams are contrasted in terms of their parenting style, but can pairs be foils to each other? I could say that Kelly and Dwayne are likely foils though.
- Jacques/Josee and Stephanie/Ryan: The entry pretty much admits that the Ice Dancers interact more with the Cadets so it's weird they chose this comparison. This is just a character comparison with no mention of how the teams contrast, so it's a cut.
- Rock and Spud: Hey look, someone wrote an entry that's actually clear and concise and contrasts the character's attitude instead of rattling off random incidental comparisons! Seems valid to me.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Your analysis seems good to me. I don't know Ridonculous Race, so that one is entirely out of my hands, though.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Lots of coffee
Are you able to weigh in on any edge cases? I'm honestly unsure how generous we are with the definition of "foil" on this site, I'm so used to the misuse. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Well, anyone who doesn't interact substantially can be "voted off", so to speak 
As for the others...
I'd agree with only keeping Heather as a contrast to Alejandro. Everyone else either didn't interact with him enough or weren't different enough to be meaningfully contrasted.
With Jo, I do remember Revenge, but I don't remember she and Scott interacting much ever, so eh. Lightning can probably keep though.
I'm not sure about Mal and Alejandro, mostly because I'm not sure what differences get highlighted (I didn't watch anything after Revenge). Mal is the bigger meaner evil man, but IDK if that's enough?
I'm fine with rewriting the couples one to be about Dave and Shawn, the contrasting couples thing is interesting but I'm not sure if relationships can be foils.
I think Sugar and Sky might be keepable, if the episodes focus on the contrast. I don't think foil needs to be constant, as long as there's a narrative contrast when it happens.
Similarly with Dave and Shawn, I think you could get away with Kelly and Dwayne if they do contrast.
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
Lots of coffee
I'll cut the ones that were mentioned then. I'm also surprised Gwen and Courtney circa TDWT and TDAS (since their personalities are frequently contrasted during the love triangle arc, and then in TDAS with Courtney being set up as the Token Evil Teammate on the Heroes and Gwen being the Token Good Teammate on the Villains) aren't listed so maybe I'll add them?
Pahkitew's love drama kind of went in-one-ear-out-the-other for me so I don't know how equipped I am to rewrite those examples. I might try later.
Good point — Gwen/Geoff definitely count so maybe I'll add them later.
Edited by mightymewtron on Mar 25th 2022 at 2:32:11 PM
I do some cleanup and then I enjoy shows you probably think are cringe.
Discarded and Feeling Blue
Yeah, I think that counts.
Now I'm thinking of that episode from Island where Heather/Owen, Duncan/LeShawna, and Gwen/Geoff were paired together. The dynamics were pretty short-lived, but I think they all count as foils based on the premise and narrative of the episode.
Edited by WarJay77 on Mar 25th 2022 at 2:07:03 PM
Currently Working On: Incorruptible Pure Pureness
I've edited the main foil page to cut the shoehorned subtropes from the standalone folder, and commented out a couple that are ambiguous and need rewrites or reworkings to fit on the page. After the other subsections are pruned, we can go through and add explanations to the ones that fit on how they can be used as foils.
I've also noted that interaction between the characters is important, and put Contrasting Sequel Main Character and Contrasting Sequel Antagonist in the description to make it clear that they don't count as foils.
Edited by ILikeRobots on Sep 2nd 2019 at 11:28:58 AM
Adventurers: homeless people who steal from tombs and kill things.