Wild Mass Guessing for Cowboy Bebop.
- Duh.
- The Afterlife is awesome.
- I think it's fairly obvious that Spike is Jesus in Purgatory, he's even apparently Jewish.
- This would also explain Vicious' slicing the last Van's eyes and the words "You shall cry red tears."
- There are a few circumstantial details that might arguably back this up. It's actually conceivable (but obviously not provable) that Vicious might have at least been on his way to accepting Spike and Julia being together until he found out Spike was planning to take her away and leave the Syndicate behind his back.
- Whether in the flashbacks or the present, Vicious never says or does anything to suggest he actually cares about losing Julia. The only thing he actually expresses anger for is being betrayed by her and Spike. When he confronts her in the flashback, he obviously already knows about the affair - but both versions of the voice-over translate to him asking "You're going to betray me?" He can't be referring to the betrayal of an affair that's already happened. Only the fact that he knows they're planning to leave later.
- Spike's flashbacks during Jupiter Jazz, Part II contains a vivid memory of Vicious telling him "Be careful when you're with that woman." In both versions of the voice-overs, this is the line translated word-for-word - and neither version of Vicious says this with any sort of anger or possessiveness.
- The Cowboy Bebop Illustrations ~The Wind~ Artbook by Toshiro Kawamoto features an image captioned by the artist, "I assumed this to be just before the parting between Spike and Vicious when they were still young." The image shows Spike and Vicious at a gravesite on opposite ends of the panel not speaking or looking at each other - with Vicious sitting in the corner looking more dour than he ever looked in the flashback materials. It's possible (or at least not beyond reason) that this was supposed to be when that conversation about Julia actually takes place.
- While in the face of art Spike is at his best, most caring self (like in the scene with Rocco's blind sister who gives Spike the music box), Vicious has, because of his need to dominate, a complete miscomprehension of art/music.
- It is notable that there is no music that is inspired by the presence of Vicious himself. All the music surrounding him comes from outward sources - as, for example "Ave Maria" in the opera house in Ballad of Fallen Angels (notice the special stress of the creators on the singer himself), or the music box in episodes 12 and 13. The only sound that identifies Vicious in almost all occasions, and that even distantly resembles music, is the croaking of his bird - we could presume that Vicious is too underdeveloped to have music accompany him, he is an animal, "a beast". And in scenes of him fighting Spike, there is only silence.
- Also, that he used a music box to frame somebody is very indicative of his frame of mind - a message that is not practical in the sense of enabling domination of its immediate surrounding, as a song from a music box, can be, by a sociopathic mind, only interpreted as a virus. It is in this manner precisely that Vicious uses the music box on Gren (framing him), and presumably on Julia (as Gren mentioned that she knew immediately that the music box was crooked (a "virus", in a way )) when she heard it was from Vicious.
- Also notable are Vicious' face expressions when dealing with music - for example, in the opera house in "Ballad of Fallen Angels", he looks angry while listening to the opera (and he also dragged a dead body in a literal "house of music" (maybe in a attempt to desecrate it)), while on the second occasion, with the music box, his expression is at first empty, as if he doesn't know what to do with it, then angry when Gren mentions he would like to play the tune on his saxophone.
- Julia represents art/music in this relationship because Spike's and Vicious' behavior towards art/music is exactly the same as with Julia. While Vicious presumably just tried to dominate Julia, Spike fell in love with her singing while he himself was completely at her mercy, being badly injured.
- In addition, Vicious calls the aforementioned song from the music box "Julia". And when escaping he hears the music box, he immediately thinks of danger - Gren planting him the music box in the same "virus-like" way is something he understood immediately
- The fight between Vicous and Spike represents a fight between good and evil, defined by their relationship with art - the good sees art/music as essential to life, akin to love, while evil doesn't find any use for it, except as a tool for domination.
- Also supporting this claim is the overall importance and pervasion of music in the show, often not only defining the tone, but giving actual meaning
- Needs citation. It's a common trope to depict China as a superpower that has serious influence on a future setting. Deus Ex did it, Starship Troopers did it. There are plenty of precedents in Western culture.
- Jossed according to the Dune prequel books. Earth was deliberately devastated in order to wipe out the thinking machines there in the Duneverse.
- TOTU took place in 2019, which would be about right for it to be the world as it was just before the gate explosion
- The ship in Faye's flashback has almost the same appearance as the Canadian Interplanetary passenger craft
- Gren and Vicious were comrades-in-arms on Titan, TOTU's "travel brochure" warns of a badly deteriorating political situation in the outer solar system
- The Helix Catapult is virtually identical in its operation to the gate system. The visual effect is also the same, both from a distance and from the viewpoint of the transiting ship. One is an elongated spiral, the other a series of loops, but the change could chalked up as one of Chessmaster Hex's breakthroughs in gate design, or some sort of safety alteration in light of the gate explosion.
- Isn't turning the CN Tower into a giant magnetic railgun exactly the sort of thing that the civilization in the Bebop universe would want to do?
- The rays of the sun got unmerciful after the disaster. You only have two options: tan, or leave Earth.
- That doesn't explain the rest.
- Prosaic explanation: reading the Omake of the first tankobon of the Love Hina manga — Ed isn't explicitly cited by Ken Akamatsu, but it is clear that he was inspired by her in creating Kaolla and gave more characteristics of the former to the latter over time.
- Given that Su is the princess of a magical kingdom, this implies that Ed is also a magical princess, albeit likely a deposed one. Has she ever been planetside on the night of a crimson moon?
- The moon is in pieces now, so it's probably physically impossible for her to have been.
- Spike is explicitly described as "Oriental" at least once.
- Isn't Spike canonically half generic Asian? Or is that just the sheer plausibility of a partially Jewish heritage creeping into my perception of canon?
- Possible, and there actually are Jews in both China and Japan as well as most of Asia. Jewish traders moved along The Silk Road much as Muslims later would, and there are ethnically Jewish or mixed communities in pretty much all of Asia.
- Come on, anyone REALLY think Spiegel was his real name?
- Come on, is there even a single hint in the entire Space Opera that indicates it might not be?
- Whatever Spike is, his beliefs certainly differ a lot from a Jewish person.
- That depends. Obviously he is not a Hasidic Jew or Ultra-Orthodox (Jewish fundamentalists), but then the great majority of Jewish people aren't that any more than the great majority of Christians are Pentecostals/Southern Baptists/similar fundies. In fact, it could be entirely arguable that Spike is culturally but not religiously Jewish, like a lot of the people who are the reason the Badass Israeli trope exists.
- Given how the other team members mismanage their cash (especially Faye, who also "borrows" any cash she can grab and tends to make large "deposits" at racetracks), this makes perfect sense.
- About half their income must go towards keeping them in cigarettes...
- Furthermore, given what other characters in the series have survived — Faye apparently survived being on a space shuttle that suffered catastrophic structural failure, for example — it's possible that 2071-era medical technology was advanced enough to keep Spike alive following that battle. It's also possible that the Red Dragon would have made a point of it, since losing Spike, Vicious, and the three old men would have left them completely without leadership.
- If Spike was, in the time between killing Vicious and collapsing, the highest-ranking member of the syndicate, then one would think it would behoove the underlings to save him if possible.
- And then Ed and Ein come back and they stop Vincent!
- Oh my God, that means "You're gonna carry that weight" makes sense! It refers to Spike carrying the weight of leading the syndicate, along with the grief due to all the death and possibly guilt for surviving when he may or may not have been intentionally looking to die.
- Pretty much, it's basically a Godfather scenario for the sequels, he had the favor of any surviving "Old Guard" AND the "Young-guns" I.E. the Brothers were attached to him from his days leading the "Muscle" he's pretty much the best chance the Syndies have of staying together.
- If Spike was, in the time between killing Vicious and collapsing, the highest-ranking member of the syndicate, then one would think it would behoove the underlings to save him if possible.
- Also, before anyone mentions Word of God: Shinichiro Watanabe has stated that he himself doesn't know whether Spike is alive or dead. He also refuses to make up his mind because he knows that, while the fans may lynch him if he says Spike is dead, they definitely will if he says Spike is alive.
- ^Does this mean Spike is a true Schrödinger's Cat?
- Exactly!
- All right then, nobody eat him!
- ^Does this mean Spike is a true Schrödinger's Cat?
- A person can live a long, painful time with a stomach wound like Spike had (in the hours to days range) depending on their constitution, if they don't succumb to the shock and if they limit the blood loss (which Spike looks like he is doing in the end). It is extremely likely that, if he can survive a fall from a fucking church, this is peanuts for him (though he'll probably have to poop in a bag for a while...).
- That depends on which exact anatomical structures were damaged. The result of a severe abdominal wound inflicted with an edged weapon can be anything from a long convalescence followed by a full recovery, to "hello Mr. Spiegel, say hello to your new best friend for the rest of your life, Mr. Colostomy Bag" to — if there was damage to the abdominal aorta or the inferior vena cava — death in a handful of minutes as the victim's entire blood volume basically falls out of him.
- Of course, since this is Science Fiction, and since we've already seen Spike survive things he shouldn't, he could have made a full recovery from a severe stomach wound, which can be Hand Waved with the standard advanced medical technology excuse. The guy survived falling from a church, for God's sake.
- Watch it in slow motion. They show every one of Spike's wounds except the one that was supposed to have killed him.
- Should it be pointed out that in the same episode Annie also suffers a stomach wound and looks to have lasted a pretty long time bleeding out till Spike came around?
- We seem to be forgetting one very crucial hint: Laughing Bull's description of a falling star as the soul of a dying warrior being released. At the end of the final credits, one star falls. Just ONE. Given that Vicious is Spike's dark counterpart in near every way, it seems unlikely that he would not be considered a warrior as well; thus, either Spike died and Vicious lived, or vice versa. Given Watanabe's lightheartedness, along with the tone of the series itself, it seems far more likely that Spike would be that last man standing, rather than the insanely bleak possibility of Spike dying while Vicious lives.
- Problem with that is that Vicious is less a character and more a force of nature (or evil). He doesn't have much of a personality, and what we do see of him is likely too monstrous to qualify as the traditional Japanese ideal of the "great warrior", given that he has no respect or regard for anything or anyone, including himself. The star going out has to have been Spike, who does fit the classic image of the warrior. It's more likely that Vicious' passing will have simply been unmarked, because at the end of the day, he's simply not worth the heaven's effort. Monsters don't count.
- Furthermore, there's no indication of exactly when that star falls, in relation to the final battle. It could be that star did represent Vicious and a second star is going to fall in a few minutes, when Spike finishes bleeding to death... aww, I made myself sad...
- Yes, but he's also a dark version of Spike. He may be a force of darkness, but he's one that reflects Spike. The star has to be him.
- Laughing Bull's description of the falling star is in another episode, and the star is described "A pitiful soul" who couldn't find his way to heaven. If you could say that those words describe Spike, then believe what you want to believe. But if you can't, disregard this line of thinking.
- Ok, lets say it is Vicious, and that only pitiful souls that can't find their way to heaven manifest as shooting stars. But what (if anything) do those who do find it to heaven manifest as? Spike could still be dead, and just made it to heaven.
- Problem with that is that Vicious is less a character and more a force of nature (or evil). He doesn't have much of a personality, and what we do see of him is likely too monstrous to qualify as the traditional Japanese ideal of the "great warrior", given that he has no respect or regard for anything or anyone, including himself. The star going out has to have been Spike, who does fit the classic image of the warrior. It's more likely that Vicious' passing will have simply been unmarked, because at the end of the day, he's simply not worth the heaven's effort. Monsters don't count.
- Confirmed. The work wouldn't go for Precursor Heroes, and Generation Xerox is impossible. That doesn't stop the creator from answering "Will there be any more Cowboy Bebop?" with "Someday... maybe someday."
- That fading star was almost obviously Spike's. After Spike kills Vicious, he immediately looks up into the sky. It is never shown what Spike was looking at, but it possibly could have been Vicious's falling star. Also, Spike does the same thing after Julia's death, looking at the sky and possibly at her own falling star. Remember, it is never shown to the audience what Spike was looking at after Julia and Vicious' deaths. However what the audience does see is only one star fading after Spike collapses (or dies). Now it would make much more sense and be more symbolic if this star was Spike's. After all, this show is about him. Let's not forget, after the star disappears at the end, the screen immediately fades into a black-and-white shot of Spike's smiling (possibly dead) face.
- See you someday space cowboy...
- Laughing Bull actually said that "all people have their stars", and the quote of the "pitiful soul" was about Gren, whose incernariting spaceship could be mistaken for a star - the star that fell in the end of the show could be in fact Vicious', who wasn't more than Spike's past. Spike, on the other hand was, in the moment of their confrontation, more than his own past - he created, in the meantime, meaningful relationships with others, while Vicious spent the same time destroying his own ties. On this alone, it could be validly concluded that Spike indeed survives the confrontation because he is more than what could possibly die of him at the Red Dragon headquarters.
- That would make perfect sense, except that Spike didn't die! He didn't!
- Correction! Cowboy Bebop is Ed! See, Ed/Cowboy Bebop was controlling everything the whole time! Just like that dog from Silent Hill 2! Those times when Cowboy Bebop seemed to away from his computer was, in fact, a holographic clone he created by looping the Circle of Life Chain Consciousness. And now let me tell you about how Spike's "death" brings Cowboy Bebop into existence...
- Between this and the Kaolla Su entry, Ed has an interesting family tree.
- You'd have to have an interesting family tree to get someone as interesting as Ed. That level of quirkiness has to be genetic.
- Su grew up, hooked up with L, had a girl, and this girl had a kid with Orihime and Ichigo's son... You know how it ends.
- Wammy's House was full of highly eccentric geniuses, and Ed could be descended from any of them.
- Are you only saying that because Death Note and Cowboy Bebop are considered by many people to be the two best anime ever made? If so, good for you!
- You'd have to have an interesting family tree to get someone as interesting as Ed. That level of quirkiness has to be genetic.
This means that Spike is Van's (and possibly Mal's) past incarnation, Faye is reborn as Carmen 99, Vicious becomes Ray and Julia Shino, Lin can be Joshua, and Ed could be Wendy, with Ein becoming Kameo. Jet could somehow have become the Man With The Claw...
Her father is easily handwaved away because they're both insane. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to say that Applederry is someone Ed latched onto as a more benign version of what Wen did with the adults around him.
- Furthermore, a working name for Pippi Longstocking was- get this- "Indian Jazz", and she was always at her computer.
- No need to invoke bizarre technology if that's all you're after. Just say it's some sort of weird variant of Anton-Babinski Syndrome.
- Therefore, when Spike wakes up after falling out of the window to hear Faye singing, he isn't just reminded of Julia. An image of Julia is in one eye, and Faye is in the other.
- A much simpler way of managing this: the cyborg eye takes a few processing cycles longer to decode the camera image and transmit it to his occipital lobe than a normal human eye. So, the image in his left eye is delayed, showing the world as it was a few instants before the image shown by his right. This delay is enough for Spike to notice it, though he's badass enough for it to not affect him much, and he's just excessively poetic in describing the symptom.
- That could even help him get a second glance at something that happens too fast to properly observe, and thus help him be more aware of his surroundings.
- This is the more likely scenario because there's another instance where we see from Spike's point of view (his first fight with Mad Pierrot) and his vision looks perfectly normal.
- We've seen her father, and he seems human. But he also appears crazy enough to make this possible.
- He obviously nailed Washu Hakubi. Cloud Cuckoo Lander smexing red crab-haired Mad Scientist equals Cowboy BeBop at His Computer.
- Look at this in combination with the above theories. L, Su, Orihime, Ichigo, and Washu combined is just crazy enough to actually produce Radical Edward.
- He obviously nailed Washu Hakubi. Cloud Cuckoo Lander smexing red crab-haired Mad Scientist equals Cowboy BeBop at His Computer.
- She's half-Betelgeusian. Meow was able to eat the same sort of fridge blob as her, and neither one was poisoned by it like humans. He's also able to understand dogs, so if one assumes animal communication is a racial thing for Betelgeusians it would explain her being able to communicate with Ein.
- I think she's just wacko. Literally.
- Hey, when you're friends with Cowboy Bebop and his computer, the impossible happens!
- "It's All Just a Dream"
- They where on Mars, with a noticeable weaker gravity, falling that high there is a lot more survivable than say, on Earth or Venus.
- Perhaps you mean IRIA?
- 2071 - 50 = 2012? Rather dyslexic sort of prophecy that...
- Maybe 2012 will be just the beginning of the end. The process leading directly to the disaster will begin in December 2012 and then go on for a couple of years.
- Makes more sense than my simply getting the date wrong.
- Maybe 2012 will be just the beginning of the end. The process leading directly to the disaster will begin in December 2012 and then go on for a couple of years.
L, is a great detective and despite one massive freak out takes the existence of Shinigami fairly well implying he may have some subconscious familiarity with the surreal. Both of these traits he would have inherited from Raidou.
If Ed and L are related, and L is descended form Raidou, Ed would also be descended from Raidou as well.
- Why did you link a sequel instead of the original game...?
They're both Cloudcuckoolander characters who hate wearing shoes and get dizzy whenever they have to put them on. Also, they even look a bit alike. Here's Maria,◊ and here's Ed.◊
- Yes, but Maria is probably Filipina, and Ed is Turkish. Reincarnation, maybe.
- Maria's nationality is never really stated and all we know about Ed's is that she was born on Earth and her father's name sounds Turkish. She could easily be part Filipino, part Turkish, part nobody really knows what.
- These are my guesses so far:
- Jet, with his weary stubbornness and tragic backstory, is "blues."
- Spike is early rock n' roll (carefree, simple on the surface, grooving with the rhythms of the universe).
- Faye is tricky to pin down... I want to say jazz, though.
- Ed is electronica, particularly of the more whimsical and ambient varieties.
- Ein is hip-hop. Trust me.
- Vicious is goth rock. What else could he be?
- Alternatively, Vicious is no music at all. In some of the old Mystery Plays every character could sing except the Devil - because evil is inherently uncreative. Vicious is the same way, just brutal and cruel without any aesthetic or moral sense whatsoever.
- Julia is country.
- Julia is totally lullabies.
- Both are ex cops, both are bounty hunters in space, and both have falcons on the back of their blue outfits. Most importantly, both are very badass. Captain Falcon changed his name and stopped wearing his helmet so that he would not have people chasing after him all the time.
- Both look almost exactly alike, have similar personalities. Jet gets caught up in a simulated reality experiment and becomes Major Dan Dustin in Paradigm City.
- And soon encounters a Badass who has little respect for authority and a rather familiar voice.
- The occupation of Spike and Jet is that of bounty hunter, representing themselves as the force of nature that exists to bring people not to justice, but to confront the actions they've taken in the past. Their function is not to mete out punishment but to connect action to consequence.
- Jet is a "reincarnation" of a former cop, Spike is a "reincarnation" of a former street thug, Faye is a "reincarnation" of a formerly very innocent person, Ein is literally taken from a coffin/grave (suitcase) after his former life as an experiment; Edward is perhaps the only true character with a Bhudda nature, capable of nearly supernatural feats and immunity to the violence and chaos of consequences surrounding the crew of Bebop.
- In the episode "Mushroom Samba" each character is confronted (with the exception of Edward, again) with some aspect of their own step on the journey through reincarnation. Spike is seen on an endless staircase, symbolic of the long, long road ahead of him due to his former profession. Faye is awash in an ocean realm symbolic of her loss of identity and simultaneously lack of baggage from her previous life. Jet confers with the plants he cares for, learning from them how to lead a guiltless life and escape samsara, something he's been loathe to do, paralleling what he does for them (pruning away that which does not belong).
- Spike creates Vicious, and while Spike "dies" initially, he "comes back" with baggage from his previous life. As an example, in the episode "Sympathy for the Devil" - the ageless youth had built up a lot of debt, seen as "weight," during his extended life. Upon dying, he finally feels this weight, asking Spike if he knows what he means. Spike replies "nope" and this is the first instance of the "bang" hand gesture.
The next time we see a reference to weight, and to the hand gesture, is after Spike has put Vicious, and therefore his own life debt, to rest - so he can finally die and actually move on - the reference not being "see you later, space cowboy" at the end, but "You're gonna carry that weight..." - again a reference to karmic debt that the ageless youth referenced.
- Spike as cat/nemesis of the Christian/immediately vengeful death (the grinning sadist Mad Pierrot), representing what the Christian death and punishment does not allow: redemption through action.
- When confronted with Dr. Londes, who advocates abandoning reality in favor of salvation through faith, Spike is quick to accuse him of living in a delusion.
- Additionally, the guiltless Ed and Ein are relatively unscathed throughout the series, Ed being the one that does not get bitten by the latent memories/reminders/unfinished past business in the refrigerator ("Toys in the attic" - another reference to a past or childhood of the soul, and what baggage remains in the form of sad reminders). Ed, actually, can thrive/consume this residue, further cementing her pure bhudda nature.
- Pikachu: She appears human, but she still has her ability from her Pokémon ancestry lightning rod.
- Pinkie Pie: carrying on her randomness energy and possibly even the Pinkie Sense
- Naruto
- The Doctor
- Ed
- Ed
- Pretty sure this is canon.
- Assuming Mao Yenrai was the fatherly figure this troper thought him to be, I sincerely believe that he took miserable, out-of-luck, or desperate kids into his syndicate and made them the crime lords within it, as well as giving them new identities. Perhaps this gave the kids a chance to restart their lives psychologically, and so actively choosing a name for themselves with a well-developed mind as opposed to being given names without their consent, and the reality that their new occupation was one of self-appointment, a new name would either have given the individuals a personality for which to strive, or one that complemented their personalities better (in the eyes of that individual's - or Mao Yenrai's - opinion). That being the case, I'm not bothered to speculate on whether Mao Yenrai or "Vicious" himself gave him the name, but I am confident that he did receive one, and that he chose to live up the name with righteous fervour.
- Also possible is that Spike Spiegel reverted to his original name once he left the syndicate, and that we don't discover what that name is within the series because of the severity of his Heel–Face Turn.
- Don't we, "Swimming Bird"?
- Julia really is a very common name, Faye . . . .
- Also possible is that Spike Spiegel reverted to his original name once he left the syndicate, and that we don't discover what that name is within the series because of the severity of his Heel–Face Turn.