Saint Seiya Classic VS Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas
- Fanservice in Saint Seiya Classic vs Saint Seiya: The Lost Canvas
- Not so much in Lost Canvas however, the girls are much more attractive, specially Crane Yuzuriha.
- That's an wrongful comparison. For a start, a lot of fans actually like both Shaina and Marin. You'd be surprised at how popular they are. The problem is that the majority of the time they are completely covered up. Which brings the main point into question. Old anime of which Saint Seiya is one just did not have the fanservice that modern animes (of which Lost Canvas is one) now have.
- This fan always found them a lot prettier then the LC girls. Pandora's classic version seems a lot more feminine and pretty then her LC equivalent. Seriously some angles just make her seem seriously masculine in LC to me.
- Saori/Athena in LC looks a loooottt more cute/moe than his classic counterpart. Come on boys, the original always had this... stony mysterious cold looking face...
- Saori is the goddess of wisdom, that "mysterious cold looking face" is way more fitting (and I say more attractive, YMMV runs here) than generic moe cuteness.
- Also lets be honest, with all the flaws, Saori is still a way better and more complex character than Sasha. Sasha is just a generic moe girl while Saori has a way more complex background and interesting gaps to fill in her development that most writers ignore her in favour of Chickification, and turn her a generic nice girl like Sasha. The Athena's version of Knights of Zodiac and Legend of Sanctuary are perfect examples of this.
- Instead of making Saori a badass as time goes by in the following adaptations, they strip Saori of any complexity and reduce her to a love interest to Seiya - relationship that is ambiguous in the orignal work and Seiya x Shaina is way more interesting. And make Athena, the goddess of war, a moe.
- Saint Seiya provides a lot of fan service for straight female and gay male fans. Plus the lack of female fan service is refreshing and makes sense since the female characters are supposed to reject their femininity.
- There is barely any fanservice in the Saint Seiya series, which is a fantastic thing. If only most animes were like this.
- Am I seriously the only one here who sees nothing wrong with fanservice being added?
Plot Holes
- Was Saga's evil an act to force Athena and Co to get ready for their trials? Was he possessed, and if he * was* who was acting through him? And it goes on, and on, and on...
- The new Gaidens written by Kurumada made it clear. Saga was canonicaly possessed by Kerr, which explained how Frog Zeros states that the dagger Saga used to try and kill a baby Athena was given to him by the specters as mentioned by Zelos.
- Episode G was done by another author. So Kurumada's words should trump Episode G's canonicity.
- Nope, Masami Kurumada is explicitly credited as the Episode G author in every single collected volume for it, right along with the artist Megumu Okada, though Okada does state in some afterwords that Kurumada lets him take much direction of the story by himself, Kurumada just leads him from time to time basically making Okada the cowriter, and unlike Lost Canvas, Kurumada doesn't declare as non-canon for his official timeline.
- Nope, Masami Kurumada mentioned in an interview that he allowed Episode G, Lost Canvas and Santita Sho mangakas almost full power to write the story they want. He oversees it loosely to get his name credited so the mangas can be considered official, but he lets them do almost everything they wish with the plot. Ultimately, Kurumada's story and opinions always overwrites the other authors because he is Word of God.
- There is a lot of discussion lately about Kurumada and his overuse of his Word of God power, saying "this is now canon and now is not anymore", and what really the fans think (and without fans, you´re dead baby). Happened with the Overture movie, the problems with the Hades animation, Lost Canvas (which generated a war between japanese fans and him), the old doujin written by Iro Sakamihara which Kurumada considered canon when he was working with Bt´x and just didn´t think about continuing SS and didn´t want to be disturbed by the fans anymore (also throw in the Gigantomachia novel), the contradictions about how really he was "pressed" to accept the canonicity and "co-writing" of Episode G, and now SS Omega as an alternative? Timeline and Next Dimension been released so slowly nearly as Bastard!! (1988) But what can you expect from an old drunk? Maybe he had a bad hit in the head when he was an amateur boxer (and no, I´m not joking this time), and follow the trail of the money!!! Kurumada is now a greedy money bitch, he just put his signature in anything related to SS if they pay him enough... and he still works in his dark and gloomy garage after so many years... jerk (I still remember his young idealistic times when he quit Shonen Jump because they didn´t treat him well, and went to work with their competitors as a big f*ck you)
- Kurumada is a bit crazy lol But we need to accept what he says for good or bad.
- Then add the various theories on whether or not Ares/Arles, exclusive to the anime, exist or not and his relationship with Shion.
- The story published in the Jump Gold Selection 2 tried to make it clearer but it only helped planting more epileptic trees seeds.
- Ermm, aren't Ares and Shion the same person? Whenever a character said Ares, I always assumed they were referring to the Pope.
- I think in the anime, they put down that the old Pope died and his evil brother took over. Keep in mind that this was during the Docrates/Ghost Saints of the Caribbean parts so the show's writing was not at its best.
- So Ares WAS evil? Or in cahoots with Saga? Hmmm...
- Ok, I'll try my best here. First, This is only anime continuity so lets make that clear, in the manga Saga just kills Shion who was very old at that time and that's about it. For the anime, and taking the Jump Gold Selection 2 in account, Shion just die of old age, then his brother Ares toke his place but unfortunately was killed by Saga and the corpse was many years later found by Marin in Star Hill (yeah, don't think about it too hard). In the Episode G Saga kills Shion but also has an armor that apparently is related to Ares (the Greek god?) in some way hence the nickname. And that's all I got.
- According to manga Saga killed Shion right after he informed both Saga and Aiolos that the Sagittarius saint to be the next Pope. In anime according to side story that published as explanation, Ares was Shion's little brother and a silver saint. There was an attempt to kill Shion by a marine pawn of Poseidon, which failed and when Ares tried to investigate it he found out Saga was the one who did it. Saga at that time was in mission to keep an eye on Poseidon's army so it's was easy for him to smuggle the pawn's scale. Saga killed Ares first when the silver saint cornered him, then Saga took his place as Ares first. So in classic Shion probably was killed later, or Saga killed him in the same time as manga.
- As a whole Saint Seiya creates as much epileptic tree per second as Seiya can cast meteors in one. Among them are all the attempts to grant the anime exclusive "Toei Saints" some coherent constellation to fit them in the universe no matter how far fetched it can be. Others include theories about what became of characters Put on a Bus such as the Steel Saints, Giggar and Phaeton, Spartan or Asterion. And finally the most common one, which Gold Saint is the strongest and why.
- As for who is the strongest saint, according to stats Kurumada himself provided in character books Shion and Dohko hold first place and second place. They were the most experienced after all. Shion according to Dohko was a perfect saint, make sense as all his stats get 5 point (the highest point) but then again there is Shaka who can win against 3 gold saints at once if not for the forbidden attack, so can't be really sure who is the strongest.
- Yeah, personally I also agree with the Shaka dilemma, I think he is the stronger golden saint (and not because I like him, in fact I´m more a Kanon fan, but I surrender to the evidence). The debate about who is the most powerful gold saint is going to be eternal (even our grandchildren will still be arguing about it XD), but I want to comment about the character ranking list created by Kurumada: 99% of the times I showed up with that argument in a "who is the most powerful" conflict, fans answer that list, no matter it is Word of God, is not realistic or they simple care a sh*t about it. Mentioned just for made a clarification about it.
- Why do the female Cloths look like that if they're meant to be worn by women who have symbolically rejected their femininity?
- Even though they did symbolically reject their femininity, they still have boobs. And although in reality boob armor isn't a thing and is actually very dangerous for the person wearing it, I'm pretty sure it was intentional and for fanservice.
- Kurumada was most likely just bad at designing cloths when he first made the designs for Shaina and Marin. All the later ladies are much better covered.
- Fanservice, that is why.
- Also regarding the female Saints, their rules about wearing a mask, and having to either love or kill any man that sees their face. Sure, pretty much every real life religion is sexist towards women in some way, but one would think that a religion revolving around a goddess of war would treat women better than this.
- This anime was created by a man, not an actual goddess, so you can expect stuff like that to happen. But in reality, this would probably not happen and since most of the characters didn't grow up in our society, there probably wouldn't be many issues regarding sexism.
- That makes even less sense. Unless this is their fetish (which, I'll admit, the masks are pretty sexy), why would a guy want women to cover their faces?
- You don't get the point with the rule of the mask in the first place. It's likely Athena in the times of myth didn't mind having warrior women within her army of Saints, so long as those women went to fight honorably, without resorting to such things as Wounded Gazelle Gambit, seducing their enemies, calling their enemies out for hitting girls only to suckerpunch them, and the like. Athena prefers fair, honorable fights, that's why she had forbidden things like weapons (barring those that are part of the Libra Gold Cloth, and even those were to be used only in the most dire of situations), or the Athena Exclamation technique that requires three Gold Saints attacking in unison against (possibly) a single enemy. Thus, the mask for female Saints was not so much a declaration of "having forsaken womanhood" as it was a way of saying "even though I am a woman, I will fight against you like a man would". It's impossible for a woman to "abandon womanhood completely" (not even for that woman herself), because that is the nature of their being, but it IS possible for that woman to abandon certain codes of conduct associated with women, such as actively seducing males and the like. That was the intent, the spirit (if not the letter) of the mask rule. And on a note related to that, for any army in the world, romantic love among their ranks is, if not strictly forbidden, still usually something actively discouraged and to be frowned upon. An army needs to keep their soldiers focused on the fight against the enemy, not on flirting and romancing others. One would logically suppose that Athena's army of Saints was no different in this regard.
- Considering the age of the characters, there's a major one with the fact that if Gold Saints are indeed 18 by the time of the show and Saori 14 then when Saga tried to kill her 13 years ago when she was still a baby, he would have been 5. He certainly doesn't look like a 5 years old Pope in the flashbacks. Nor does Capricorn Shura.
- the Saga was actually 28 at the start of the series, so he only would have been 15. Still young, but not as young. Aioros would have been the same age too, while Shura would have been twelve.
- Shura would have been ten actually considering he is 23 by the time of the series though his physical appearance is exactly the same between the two periods while there's a huge leap in design between 7 years old and 14 years old characters. But still, this means that at 10 years old he already had his Gold Cloth... but still, let's imagine it was his very first day as a Gold Saint after just completing his Saint training... a training that already takes 7 years to complete to become a low ranked Bronze Saint. One can only imagine to become a Gold Saint the training would be longer but still let's say it's not, that would mean he started his formation at the age of 3 at best, now that's pretty hardcore, poor guy just barely learnt how to make sentences.
- The last Official info stated the youngest gold saint is 20 years old, they are Milo, Shaka, Aiolia, Aldebaran, Mu and Camus. Aphrodite (22), Deathmask (24) and Shura (also 24). The oldest are Saga who is 28 years old and Aiolos is one year younger than Saga. YES, all Gold Saint started their training when they are so young! It's stated in Q&A narrated by Shion that Gold Saint in this era started their training early due to seventh sense is easier to reach by young child because they have not developed mind that swayed by the world's belief and limitation. Something like that... but it's seems in Next Dimension it's not the case, because there is saint who promoted from bronze to gold when they were 18.
- Also in Vol 13 you can clearly see in a flashback that thirteen years before most of the Gold Saint were kids and Saga comments that's why the successor of the Pope could only be either he (15-years-old) or Aioros (14-years-old).
- The Gold Saints' Temples were supposedly meant to be crossed in order, and it had taken several hours for the Bronze Saints to get to the Leo Temple, yet we see Cassios get there a few minutes after caring for Shaina. Also, especially the last Temples, it takes them one frickin' hour to get from Temple to Temple, even if it's visible and looks like it's just a few meters away.
- Another example linked to that can be found with many Gold Saints often saying things along the lines that they never allowed anyone to pass their temples alive, yet if that was the case, only one should be able to say that (the one whose temple is placed the earliest) because if others placed later still had to fight people, the statement of the previous Gold Saint would be invalid and so on.
- For the first statement I think the most sensitive explanations are secret paths use for soldiers (I don't think they feel like dealing with Aphrodite's deadly poisonous roses been Mooks and all) and in the anime, at least, we saw Marin climbing really dangerous and time consuming cliffs to get to Seiya. The second statement is more simple: not all the Gold Saints are at their temples at the same time unless they have orders too do so. When Saint X is in a mission his temple remains empty, so is the job of the next guy to stop whoever wants to pass. Mystery solve.
- Ok, the secret paths explanation kinda makes sense, since Cassios was a low tier Elite Mook, so he might have been privy to those paths. However, the gaping plot hole is the amount of time it takes them to get from one temple to another. The first temples, I can accept their taking so long, since they all fight, one way or another, but after Sagittarius, they were all one on one fights, therefore, the battles in Capricorn, Aquarius, and Pisces should have been more or less simultaneous. This was far from the case, you actually see the flames die while they're moving from temple to temple. The temples are less than 100 meters away, for Seiya, who in his slowest day can move at Mach 1, and who didn't fight in any of the last temples, he should have gotten to the Pope's room with at least 2 hours to spare, and that's if he decided to take a nap on Aphrodite's roses.
- This is an Ass Pull from me but since Cassios was able to beat up a few of the main bronzies easily. Maybe he discovered the seventh sense and was able to travel through the secret paths at light speed?
- No, no, the truth about all of this is that Cassios is actually Haruhi Su... XD
- Amazingly enough, there could be a somewhat decent explanation related to how Ophiuchus used to be a Gold Cloth: he started from Shaina's home, that, due the thing mentioned above, could well be on the Twelve Temples. That, or him being the apprentice of someone who should have been a Gold Saint led to him knowing the Tewlve Temples area so well he could get around the usual troubles.
- The Cygnus Cloth seems to be able to select which cold affects it and which one doesn't. Indeed, Camus clearly states to Hyoga that all Bronze Cloths, even the Cygnus one, breaks under -150°C yet it seems unaffected by Hyoga's own cold which can reach that temperature right at the beginning of the series (whether it comes from his Cosmos or air around it). Similarly when Hyoga's attack is sent back to him by the empty Gemini Cloth, you can assume the cold from it would be at least -150°C if he really hoped to beat his enemy, however his Cygnus Cloth doesn't seem much affected by it. But then again, Camus is not really known for the reliability of his statements like for his ice coffin.
- Regarding ice coffin. actually Camus stated that even a gold saint's level attack can't destroy it, Libra weapons are far stronger. The Libra saint is special because he has to decide if is right or wrong to use the Libra weapons giving Athena's decision that it shouldn't be used for selfish reasons (since, in fact Athena hates the use of weapons). Camus' statement since the very beginning didn't cover the Libra weapons.
- And WHY also in the fucking hell can't Camus just use his ice coffin as some sort of defensive power? (since it's seems to don't break with even the most powerful attack...except Libra's weapons, God's attacks, and the "Athena's exclamation" perhaps...) I don't know...maybe he could use it to create defensive barriers, or even to cover a part of his cloth and use it as a shield...just an idea that actually many fans asked around through the years...
- When June encountered Shun and told him that their Master had been murdered, how did Shun manage to guess "Milo of Scorpio" when he never met him before?
- Perhaps since Shun and Milo got a mhhhh... "close encounter" long time before that? XD
- If Aphrodite and Deathmask betrayed Athena, why did they choose to act in her favour in the Hades Arc?
- I think in the scene after the two died again by Mu, Aphrodite mentioned that "he didn't want to go back." It's possible they did it as a form of redemption and maybe a way out of where they were at after they were killed the first time.
- Well, is not as much as they openly betray her... Aphrodite though the Pope was strong enough to maintain peace by itself and that the strong have the right to rule over the weak for peace's sake (base in his conversation with Shun), and if Athena was weaker than the Pope I guess that would make her unfit to rule the Sanctuary and save the world. DM is more complicated since he just didn't care. For him the strongest is the one with justice in his side: a "the winners write history" kind of guy. And think for a moment that Athena's army has never lost. For 13 years even with his ruthless way of fighting he was in "the right side" but when he oppose Athena directly he lost his right as a Saint and his clothe left him (apparently that's the one line he couldn't/shouldn't cross). Now you have two guys who think the strongest is always right so when they were defeated they finally understood that Athena's love and justice was actually the stronger force, not them, and that even the weakest (read: Bronze Saints) can win when they are in the side of true justice. Or something like that.
- The real reason is that, accordingly to Kuramada, Sion chewed them very blaid when he meet the two in hell.
- So does it irk some people that we apparently never see What Marin's looks like without her mask.? Cause it irks me just a bit.
- Didn't we get to see Marin's face when Caza impersonate her in the Poseidon Saga?
- But was that really what she looked like, or just what Caza thought she looked like?
- More like what Seiya thought she looked like, since that image was built from Seiya's memories. We get a somewhat good look in the closing episodes of the Sanctuary saga, when she lends her mask to Seiya, after he decided to snooze on Aphrodite's garden. That, added to Kurumada-san's style can give us a pretty good guess as to what she looks like.
- Caza actually impersonated Seika dressed as Marin because Seiya was still wondering back then if the two women were the same person or not.
- Why did Athena only resurrect the Bronze Saints and not the Gold Saints?
- She didn't resurrect them, they where "almost" dead, she just heal them enough to put them out of risk (and even then they where still so weak that they couldn't even walk).
- Just check the manga version, you can see in the beginning of the Poseidon ark (since there was no Asgard filler saga) the bronze saints in a near comatose state in the hospital, in fact the two first Poseidon henchmen attacks against Athena was repelled by Aioria and Aldebaran this time (finally the golden saints doing their work for once and all...)
- How the hell (no pun intended) the seven gold saints that were dead at that time were reborn during the Inferno Chapter in order to destroy the wall?
- They weren't reborn. Supposedly the souls of the saints that fight for Athena end up in buried in the lake of ice, so presumably they "felt" that Athena/the Bronze Saints needed them and traveled from point A to point B, all within the underworld. But I don't know how they traveled between the circles.
- Ares' plan makes no freaking sense. He says he won't start his world domination campaign before having "The Golden Cloth"... dude, you have 11 of those! At your command!
- Ares was also Saga. It could be his good side persuading him to not go for world domination much like how Saga's good side stopped his evil side from attacking Shun further and allowing him to pass the House of Gemini.
- Actually, he started his world domination plan before even going after the last missing cloth... don´t you remember one of the first episodes in the anime, when there was many "terrorist" events around the world, which actually was cover-up attacks made by his henchmen? I will refresh your memory: a group of guys in unidentified armor (presumable just elite soldiers) jumping from an oil carrier exploding after they set explosives onto it, at the rhythm of "long live to the master of evil!!!" (I remember this from the Latin American and Brazilian dubs, don´t know if they said the same in the original and other versions, anyway, it´s was HILARIOUS) ("Larga vida al maestro del malllll!!!, para los que saben leer en español/for those who can read spanish")
- According to Kurumada, Athena hates weapons. According to the myth, Athena is the Goddess of War as in fighting smart, and was born already armed with a spear. Shouldn't be that most gods hate weapons and don't allow their soldiers to use them but Athena not only arms them but plays dirty?
- Considering that a Saint's own body is a weapon capable of destruction of a scale human weapons could not match until World War I and that some Saints do carry weapons (some even included in their own Cloths, such as Draco's Power Fist, Perseus' petrifying shield, and [[Walking Armory Libra's collection of weapons), the implication is that Athena hates weapons as an unnecessary distraction, and gives a pass to the rare weapon that works anyway (such as Orphee's lyra or Jamian's crows).
- This series has a character named after Thor and another named after Loki. The two aren't related in any way, and in fact Thor's the one who has a Robe based on Jörmungandr , while Loki doesn't use a Robe at all. Isn't this like having a Star Wars adaptation where Luke is the commander of the Death Star and Darth Vader is just some random guy that runs a convenience store?
Nasty question...
- ...but necessary, since Saint Seiya is a lot about blood and gore after all...
Since you need the blood from a God in your cloth to travel safely through the Hiperdimension/Chōjigen (unless you have Pandora´s amulet)
and/or to get your cloth to a divine/kamei level (as we see with Ikki who couldn´t reach that level until he touched the amphore with Athena´s blood pouring out)
...if your armor is touched by, lets say, "other" sources of blood...like Athena´s menstruation/period (remember, she is an avatar, may be a goddess but she still "works" like a normal human female...and yeah, she poops too)
, will it count towards this "rule" for getting more powers? Serious answers please XD
- I really don't think that ever even crossed Kurumada's mind. This was before the internet, crack theories, and large forums dedicated entirely to tearing apart Fridge Logic.
- Yeah, but does it count or not??? XDDDDD
- I consider/imagine just this situation..."Athena, our cloths are broken, we need repairs and both Mu and Kiki are again in their long away home". Athena thinks for a moment, and then after checking a calendar, she says "OK boys, bring me your cloths next week Wednesday without fault". The saints look between them without understanding why is necessary such precision and date, but they agree. The day comes, they bring their cloths to Athena...after some hours without any notice, one of them enters in Athena's inner sanctuary/palace to see what is going on. Reaction: "WTF Athena are you doing with our cloths $%&/#"#%". She was just sit over one of them with her skirt covering it...
Meta
- This may seem random, but I'm asking it anyway: of all the licensing companies that got their hands on the TV series, why did it have to be New Video Group of all people? Why didn't Sentai Filmworks get it since ADV Films licensed it after DiC threw it away after their Macekre of it failed? How did they even get it? They're only known for licensing dubbed anime, Digimon Adventure, Yu-Gi-Oh!, and Zatch Bell! included. Fans are pretty angry about this, claiming that Discotek Media should have gotten it since they've released four of the movies and the entirety of Fist of the North Star, including the unfinished dub.
