Headscratchers / Persona 5

As a Headscratchers subpage, all spoilers are unmarked as per policy. You Have Been Warned.

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• As a student of the school for at least two years, Ryuji should've definitely noticed when a castle seemed to replace it. Why did he go inside anyway? The protagonist isn't excusable either since he must've seen what the school looked like while Sojiro was enrolling him.
  • What exactly would you expect in a situation that surreal? They saw the castle where the school should be, went in to investigate, and tried to rationalize it as something mundane like an elaborate redecoration to keep calm. When the Shadows attacked, the denial wore off and they had to accept it was real and they were in serious danger.
• Regarding the second hang-out spot, when the school roof was chosen it wasn't such a bad idea since there was a fair amount of privacy for planning and executing their mission, but the second spot was the subway access way. A very public spot with people passing by that can hear and the game in fact makes a point of people spying on them. This is in addition to going to the metaverse which I don't believe is explain just how they do so.(Vanishing? Zoning out?)Why not find someplace a bit more quiet/out of the way?
  • First, the school roof had already been considered a hot-spot due to the previous incident(not to mention Makoto already becomes suspicious of the trio after Kamoshida's incident).Second, Yusuke is NOT from Shujin Academy, holding meeting up there will only makes it even more suspicious. Third, subway may be a better place due to the fact that majority of the public disregards the notion of Phantom Thieves. Talking about it in public is no more than gibberish to adults. Therefore, the meeting spot is not only sensible and convenient, but also effective at preventing eavesdropping due to the noise.
  • As for getting into Metaverse, people can only arrive at Metaverse if they paid attention to the users and within close distance. In other words, if they are not aware that metaverse exists, then they won't bring random bystanders by accidents. Furthermore, why do you think they have to enter the place right away? They can move to the real-life location that is close to the palace, and activating their apps.
  • There is also the phenomenon of "You can't see what you're not looking for". Most people aren't actively looking for the Phantom Thieves, much less know what they look like. Not every cop can go around hassling teenagers for...meeting at a popular meeting spot and talking about pop culture news. The subway gets so busy and crowded, most people aren't going to care about the few that are standing still and out of the way.
  • Also,it may be a case of Refuge in Audacity. Obviously, if they're meeting up and talking about the Phantom Thieves of Hearts in broad daylight, they couldn't be the shadowy figures from the news.
  • Also, it’s a crowded space, it’s unlikely they’re going to be overheard over the hustle and bustle of everyone else.
• In the beginning of the game, why hasn't the whole volleyball team quit almost simultaneously?! Even if they have gotten far in tournaments, success should never come at the cost of one's own well-being and will to live! Why do these people put so much importance on what's supposed to be just for fun to the point that teachers and parents are okay with letting the coach beat up their kids and even try to get in bed with a few of them? I realize honor and duty is important in Japan but there comes a point where enough is enough and this is absolutely ridiculous!
  • The incident with Ryuji and the track team is likely used by Kamoshida and the rest of the school to set up a precedence for what happens to those that defy him. Kamoshida was able to get away with disbanding the entire track team because he pushed Ryuji's buttons. Even worse with Ryuji, he was also able to get away with beating up a student and injuring his leg by claiming it was self-defense, and Ryuji's Confidant shows his old teammates are mad at him for snapping, since they all tolerated the same abuse. If anyone from the volleyball team tried to quit, Kamoshida could threaten them with expulsion like he did with Ryuji and the protagonist. Kamoshida also probably gave expulsion threats to make sure none of the girls he harassed ratted him out. The threat of expulsion and the precedence set by Ryuji probably made the team realize how futile it is to try and go up against Kamoshida.
  • Also they endured it for the prestige of being on Kamoshida's volleyball team. Either because they or their parents wanted to use it to get ahead in life. For Japan it's not that unusual to think getting abused is worth it if it pays off years later.
  • I forget the specific word for it, but it is/was a problem that many Japanese employees were literally dying on the job. They were overworked, overstressed, and overtaxed. Why wouldn't they just quit? Loyalty to one's supervisor and team is very important. You are ranked more by your seniority to a company rather than your experience in many areas. This means that if you quit, you may have to start from square one somewhere else. So it is entrenched that once you establish a bond of responsibility, you fulfill it under the impression that you will (eventually) be rewarded. In this case, the volleyball players were/will be "rewarded" with scholarships and academic prestige, things that their parents especially value. The sunk-cost fallacy kicks in, and every day the volleyball players suffer just means they are one day closer to being free. It's crazy to think that this is by any means a fair transaction, but that was the level of Kamoshida's intimidating influence.
    • The word you're looking for is "karoshi", or death by overwork.
  • There is also the fact that students in Japan have to earn their way into high school to begin with. Considering that Shujin is a highly prestigious school, most of the students likely had to really focus to get into the school, and thanks to the sunk-cost fallacy they are likely not motivated to drop out or transfer to a lower-ranking school after all that work. Plus, if the outcome is "College of Your Choice", which is seen as a golden ticket to a successful life to high schoolers and their parents, why wouldn't you suck it up? As terrible as Kamoshida is treating them, the idea of earning an amazing reward "justifies" the treatment in at least their parents' minds.
  • It can be also interpretated that people are dumb. The regular masses simply live their own lives and are actually scared about authorities stomping all over them if they gather up. This is why corrupt governments are not overthrown easily; The people are actually scared about mass suppression by the government. It simply makes them easier to control, even though the government barely has any substance going over it.
  • It's depressingly common for abuse victims to misdirect their rage on people trying to help them. Especially in those who are in abusive organizations. They are taught that the main perpetrator is all but invincible and the people who were supposed to protect them accept it all for the sake of the prestige of having someone famous like Kamoshida brings. The parents and teachers all likely told them to just suck it up and go along with it so that they can get Kamoshida's endorsement for college. For as much as he abused the team, they really were playing at a national level, meaning that he did legitimately improve their skill, adding more incentives to submit. As for rebelling, The track team was made an example of to put a stop to that. Anyone who opposed him could crippled out of ever competing again, while he got off scott free. The fact that the former team turned on Ryuji instead of supporting him as a fellow victim showed that his tactics worked: there was no chance of organizing the students into a meaningful resistance to him. Even if they did, nobody would take their word over his. Kamoshida shows how an entire system can mold itself to protect and empower abusers while suppressing victims and get away with it all. That's why the Thieves decided to continue as vigilantes after beating him: to address this tendency in the world at large.
  • There's also the thing that when you're in an abusive relationship of any nature, it's really hard to see the forest through the trees and people will rationalize the abuse they're enduring. These are teenagers who probably never had a serious coach before (since there's not much stake in middle school games), so they might think that Kamoshida's abuse is par for the course when it comes to higher level sports coaching because they don't know any better. It's not until after the relationship has ended can someone fully process what happened. You see this happen all the time in sports teams around the world - and unfortunately it rarely gets attention brought to it until someone dies.
  • Most abusive situations start off innocuously enough before gradually ramping up over time. Kamoshida probably didn't start off hitting and assaulting students, but broke them down and conditioned them over months to tolerate and accept an escalating amount of abuse. A big theme of Persona 5 is also the indolence of the masses. People see and recognize evil, but are cowed into overlooking or ignoring it by society. Despite everyone knowing what Kamoshida was doing, society only judged him when he gave them permission to by confessing his crimes.
• Ryuji played track and field, and was referred to by Ann in the ship cutscene as their "best runner." However, Ryuji's agility stat is average at best (58) and several other characters like Yusuke and Makoto outspeed him in that compartment, so why is he there best? It makes sense when you consider he was supposed to participate in track, however then his agility stat should compensate. In theory, gameplay balancing would say that a fast and tanky ultra-strong physical attacker would be game breaking, however you could in theory compensate that with things like other stats or move pool.
  • His agility stat is lower because his leg got fucked up by Kamoshida, so he can't move as fast as he once could.
    • There’s also the fact that most agility stats for RPGs are for ‘reflexes’ and Ryuji was a long-distance runner with a bum leg meaning he would be handicapped and unconditioned for fast dodges and rolls.
• So, what's with Kobayakawa's desire to have Makoto investigate the Phantom Thieves? But besides possibly letting the Conspiracy know of his findings, what would he be able to do about it? From the way he talked, he didn't seem to be expecting blackmail. And from what was witnessed, Kamoshida confessed to his crimes by his own accord, and were all demonstrated to be true. So what exactly is it that he was trying to prove here?
  • My interpretation is that the conspiracy recognized that Kamoshida's change of heart could have been an application of Cognitive Psience just like Futaba did. That is, from Wakaba's research saying "that cognitive world disappears when you remove its core, and further problematic actions stop" even if they never figured the trick to remove said core until the Casino (if ever). Back to the point, once they realized they didn't have exclusive access to the cognitive world through the Black Mask, the conspiracy decided (probably at that meeting in Wilton Hotel on 5/5) to put pressure on a low-ranking member — the principal — for answers, particularly the identities of this unknown party calling themselves the Phantom Thieves (PT). That's likely why Kobayakawa recruited Makoto the very next day to look into the students of Shujin Academy for a suspect (Kamoshida was actually unimportant in the grand scheme of things, so the fact he was targeted by the PT at all strongly implies they had personal reasons for it). While Kobayakawa accomplished nothing in the end, the Black Mask caught sight of the PT in Madarame's Palace (based on Morgana feeling they were Being Watched in a cutscene) and passed this information to the rest. Once the leader of the conspiracy learned that the Phantom Thieves were just kids playing heroes, he decided it was better to make use of them as The Scapegoat than destroying them then and there, and for that purpose he came up with the whole fake Medjed incident to boost their popularity, and then had the Phan-site pool manipulated so they would target Okumura to kill two birds with one stone. That is, getting rid of a conspiracy member that became problematic due to his political ambitions, and framing the PT for the highly publicized murder. Parallel to this, the Black Mask approached the leader of the PT in his civilian identity in preparation to "catch" them leaving Okumura's Palace and then join them in order to manipulate from the inside from a position of power. As for why the conspiracy kept pushing Kobayakawa around even though nothing he could offer was relevant to them once they identified the Phantom Thieves, I think it was just For the Evulz. It backfired on them because the principal decided to go to the police, but they fixed the potential issue by having the Black Mask kill him on September 11.
    tl;dr Kobayakawa recruited Makoto to find out the identities of the Phantom Thieves because the conspiracy ordered him to, as they wanted to know who else had access to the cognitive world and Kobayakawa was the conspiracy member closest to the problem. While the principal failed to find out the Phantom Thieves' real identities, the conspiracy still managed to do it by other means.
• Is there a reason Igor's voice is deeper than his previous appearances? I know his actor died but that doesn't seem to explain why they need to modify his voice. (If it's a spoiler reason, please say so.)
  • It's a spoiler reason. More specifically, the Igor you meet in the beginning of the game is in fact an impostor. The real Igor shows back up near the end of the game with a voice similar to his voice in previous games.
• On May 17, when Yusuke threatened to report the protagonist and Ryuji to the police because he doesn't recall calling them besides Ann to Madarame's shack, there's no way that could work, right? After all, even if he said that, he did voluntarily let the boys in rather than turn them away at the door.
  • That's correct. It's a "one party's word against another's" thing, and given that nothing else happened, the police arriving would have been the end of it. My reading is that what the party was actually worried is that the police would have contacted their school (they were in their uniforms at the time), and given that the protagonist is on probation already, this could have been enough of a reason/excuse to have him expelled and perhaps even sent to juvie. Later on the Phantom Thieves discussed something along those lines over chat when a similar situation occurs when Madarame finds Yusuke and Ann inside his duplication atelier, but that case is significantly more serious because the accusation would have come from a reliable party for the police (Madarame) and the kids did commit an actual crime by picking the lock and entering without permission.
  • The Thieves all know that their activities could be considered crimes, even if no laws related to the Metaverse exist. They are all understandably wary of cops period because just being around them increases their chances of being caught. Joker's probation rules make them even more paranoid since any major misconduct could cost the team their leader. Of course they'll back down from that kind of threat. Being scared, not-terribly-bright teenagers with a lot to hide and only a magic talking cat to advise them, they wouldn't take the time to carefully analyze the technicalities they could argue.
• What's the deal with Kobayakawa putting up a poster claiming that the student council is looking for information (presumably) regarding the crime spree against Shujin students in Shibuya? What is he thinking getting them caught up in such an investigation? What does he even think they can do?
  • I think you're talking about Kaneshiro, so it's probably a Secret Test of Character from The Conspiracy to see if the Phantom Thieves are REALLY meaning what they are. He wouldn't have any reason to ever go against Kaneshiro on his own volition since 1. Kaneshiro is a mafia scam artist with enough force to defend himself and 2. both Kobayakawa and Kaneshiro share the same boss (Shido). The Conspiracy is most likely trying to make Makoto blackmail the Phantom Thieves into investigating Kaneshiro (Based on how anyone in this case will do) so they can plan the Medjed threat and set the Phantom Thieves' arrest in motion.
    • You're both wrong. That was an ill-thought out plan to get information that ended up putting Kaneshiro in the Phantom Thieves cross-hairs.
• Why was a Calling Card needed for Futaba anyway? Isn't the trigger to materialize someone's treasure the thought of the Phantom Thieves coming for your distorted desires? Isn't the Calling Card just a tool for that purpose (and to keep a level of anonymity) from their adversaries (Kamoshida, Madarame, and Kaneshiro)? I mean, they certainly didn't use a Calling Card for Shido, but a public broadcast instead. Since the Phantoms basically told Futaba that they were coming for her in person at her request, why was the Calling Card even necessary?
  • Remember Futaba thought a calling card was a necessary tool, to the point that she made and sent one to Leblanc. Calling cards create a sense of finality, they show that the Phantom Thieves are fully intending to act. While they were communicating with Futaba to the best of their abilities, she still didn't fully understand how stealing a heart worked, so the calling card was them telling her they were going to act.
    • A similar situation happens in the third semester with Maruki, who at the time has read their cognitions and likely knows exactly what happens when a calling card is delivered.
• Why does Futaba call her father by his first name? Granted, he's only her adoptive father, but that shouldn't make a difference (unless, perhaps, either or both of them thinks otherwise).
  • She has No Social Skills. Sojiro doesn't seem to mind, and accepts that part of Futaba. There's also the fact that there had been a wall between them for a while due to Futaba's severe social anxiety; he tried his damndest to get her help when he first adopted her, but all of his attempts fell flat. Perhaps that might be another reason why she's so informal with him.
  • Also, it seems that it was only a couple years before the start of the game that she was adopted, and she knew Sojiro long before then. It isn't terribly surprising that she wouldn't call him "dad" or something similar given this.
  • This, of course, is also all the point: when you get to Rank 9 for Sojiro, she calls him "Dad" for the first time ever, when she's telling social services agents she's happy where she is.
• Considering the events of the game become an international phenomenon, why is it that characters from Persona 3 and 4 (or, hell, even 1, 2, or Tamaki from SMT if...) remain uninvolved? Naoto especially would be in a perfect position to deal with such a mysterious case.
  • It seems that Shido's group was manipulating the situation from the start, so they wouldn't have contacted someone who stood an actual chance of interfering with their plans. Naoto wouldn't have been contacted when there's already a wunderkind Kid Detective Goro Akechi on the case. The time after the Phantom Thieves graduate from curiosity to dangerous criminals, with Okumura's death, it was only a few months from there to Shido's downfall. As to why the existing groups of Persona users didn't step in to do something, perhaps "Igor" showed up told them that he had things under control with a new batch of Teenagers With Attitude. And by the time it becomes crystal clear that everything is going up in flames, it'd be too late to get everyone together to act.
    • That is not possible. If "Igor" would have tried to reassure the P3 cast that he had everything under control, they (especially Aigis) would have immediately caught on that wasn't the real Igor.
  • If one also takes Ultimax into consideration, there's the major fact that the Shadow Operatives are constantly mired with red tape on the government's part. Partaking in any kind of mission is a headache and a half for Mitsuru and company, as shown both during the story and during the final part of the P3 ending. Due to the corruption of the Diet and Shido's growing influence with his new political party, combined with the fact that, while they are government agents, the Shadow Ops also have their own lives to live, it's little wonder why they aren't involved - they likely can't. The "lives to live" aspect can apply to any of the other teams of Persona users, both past and present.
    • In addition, considering Naoto still clashes with the police in approaching the Kirijo Group case at the end of Ultimax, how she naturally has more contacts with the police, it may also have been possible that she may have been secretly considered as a threat by Shido and whoever dirty officials in the police/prosecution agencies he had connections to. It may not be a stretch to think that Akechi, the prosecution attorneys, the various police agencies, and the media they're connected to may have all conspired to smear Naoto's name (or even legally frame and incarcerate her) - with Naoto losing influence in the police forces. Being a genius of whatever king does not help when you don't have the political/diplomatic skill to influence people in your favor, after all.
  • Given how the very first action the villain took was incarcerate Igor and take control of his most recent Resident, it's entirely possible Yaldabaoth also captured any Persona user or previous Resident that could interfere with the game.
  • Furthermore, give the aforementioned first action, any other Persona-user is going to be missing something important for dealing with the problem: their greatest allies. Given that access to the VR really only appears when it's needed, it's likely that Igor can decide to rescind access at any point. Yaldabaoth would almost certainly be able to do the same thing. Furthermore, if Yaldabaoth could overpower Igor and Lavenza, it's likely he could do the same to Theodore, Elizabeth and Margaret (while Marie appears to have left the Room for good). If the casts of the other games can't get to the Velvet Room, that means that the Wild Cards and P1/P2 casts are stuck with only one Persona each, and a big source of information and guidance is simply out of commission. This doesn't apply to Tamaki, who is a Devil Summoner, but given that she's over 30, it might be a bit hard for her to drop her life and investigate.
  • It is also possible that since most of the old Persona users do not have the "rebellious spirit" nor are involved in "Igor's" experiment (He's trying to prove that people want him to control them after all), They might still be affected by Mementos or lost their abilities to summon Personas over time, and/or they are not given the Metaverse Navigator.
  • The fact that Personas and Shadows work very differently between 4 and 5 should already indicate clearly enough that they are not even the same universe.
    • That is not correct. It's been established that at least Persona 3, 4, and 5 all take part in the same universe. Case in point: the existence of the canon spin-off games Arena, Arena Ultimax, Q, and Q2 which feature characters from the above-mentioned main series titles.
    • Just because Personas are obtained differently, doesn't mean it is not the same universe. It would seem that the Phantom Thieves (save for Futaba) didn't have as much repressed darkness as the the Investigation Team. In fact, their shadows are almost solely their rebellious spirit; once they accept their rebellion, they accept their shadow and can use a persona.
    • It seems less like the Phantom Thieves have LESS repressed darkness, and more that it's a case of them feeding it and making it their strength. They're not defeating their shadows, but embracing them and directing that darkness at the deserving (instead of accepting it and burying it). They're turning their anger, their hurt, and their rage into their strength.
    • Also, Rise, Namatame and some other characters from previous games make cameo appearances in this game, thus confirming that this takes place in the same universe.
  • The events only affect Tokyo and nowhere else. Therefore, if you don't stay in Tokyo you can't be affected, no matter what. In fact, in Scramble Akane was capable of broadcasting Shido's Calling Card to the public and guess what, she still has lots of followers instead of being dissed as someone who supports a parade of horribles and criminals. Since any member from Persona 3 or Persona 4 wasn't in Tokyo (And was in fact, interviewed on TV instead of looking like someone who was blackmailed or silenced by Shido or Yaldabaoth), they wouldn't have a hand on it.
    • That's incorrect, 1 or 2 of the minor targets (such as Kana's parents in Futaba's Confidant) live outside of Tokyo, but the Thieves could reach their Shadows just fine.
  • The Shadow Operatives, Investigation Team and all the other veteran persona-users from the previous games wouldn't have any way of knowing that the Phantom Thieves were persona-users too or that they were involved with shadows or whatnot. Granted, by the end of the game, they were probably at least aware of the Phantom Thieves because of how famous they became across Japan, but they would have no way of knowing that they share a connection or that they were also involved in fighting shadows, especially since the concept of "stealing people's hearts" is something that they would all be unfamiliar with, thus meaning that they would have no way of knowing that the Phantom Thieves are also connected to shadows and personas. If they had known, they would've probably tried to get involved in the story and made an appearance. However, this ends up raising another question: Even if the other persona-users knew about the Metaverse's existence, how would they have been able to access it? After all, the only way you can enter the Metaverse is through the Metanav, which is only handled out by the Holy Grail. Granted, there are some exceptions to this rule (like Morgana), but it doesn't change the fact that they would need some way to access the Metaverse to get in, and I seriously doubt that Yaldabaoth would just hand over the App to them. And keep in mind that the Metanav doesn't appear automatically in your phone when you enter the Metaverse. After all, Sae didn't get it when she went in, so we know that the Holy Grail can choose who gets the Metanav or not, so entering the Metaverse doesn't automatically guarantee that you'll get the Nav. So, even if the veteran persona-users had somehow learned of the Metaverse and whatnot, how would they have been able to help the Phantom Thieves if Yaldabaoth doesn't let them in the Metaverse?
• Is there any good reason why Philemon doesn't seem to particularly care that his loyal servant Igor and his room have been taken over by Yaldabaoth? We know he's still around as he appears in P3 and P4 as butterflies. If so, why doesn't he do anything about the intruder?
  • Helping Would Be Kill Stealing.
  • Also, it's freaking Yaldabaoth. You know, the entity known elsewhere in MegaTen as YHVH. Philemon might be worried he can't throw down with Yaldabaoth and win with certainty, or might be worried that their battle, which would rage across the collective unconscious, would do serious damage to humanity's psyche.
    • It's worth noting this incarnation of Yaldabaoth is likely unrelated to the mainline MegaTen Yaldabaoth, he is simply a Treasure that gained consciousness due to humans valuing their social order far too much, and is powerful simply because he works under the rules of Gods Need Prayer Badly, as soon as Tokyo, which while densely populated, is a tiny fraction of the world's population(so, rather few people when you consider the entire world population, but still enough to give him godlike powers), started valuing the Phantom Thieves more than him(the pool meter only got up to 65% to allow Joker to summon Satanael, a notable majority, but not an overwhelming one), he was quickly dispatched, so he was powerful, he still had to put out his full power just to cause as much trouble as Nyarlathotep did while holding back, and even then it wasn't enough since he openly threatened the source of his powers enough to make them turn against him.
    • Indeed, the villainous Yaldabaoth is neither YHVH nor the Demiurge of mainline Megaten. As stated above, it's just a Treasure that sits firmly within the psychology and mythology of Persona 5 —he's not even an external entity like Nyx or Izanami. His name is likely a reference to how the Gnostic deity believes itself the sole god, controller, and object of worship of all creation, but he himself states that he was created by humanity, which is something the Demiurge would be loath to admit.
  • It's possible Philemon was playing the long game, he knew, or at least believed, that Yaldabaoth couldn't possibly have an ultimate victory since even if the Phantom Thieves failed, he could gather up the protagonists from Persona 3 and 4 to handle the situation, after all, it is arguable that Satanael should be around the same power level as Messiah and Izanagi-no-Okami, and they would just demolish the oversized gold pendant if they teamed up, plus, there is also a matter of principle: Philemon is a literal personification of the good in humanity, and him letting Joker handle things sends a message to Yaldabaoth,and any other evil gods or godlike beings up to even Nyarlathotep, that Humans Are Special, and they are not going down easily.
  • Also, it might be against the rules. He doesn't do any direct moves, and Nyarlathotep holds back as well. The fact that this game started with a well-executed sucker punch, doesn't change anything. Yaldabaoth pulled off the move, so Philemon needs to deal with it, and hope his proxies can rise above it.
    • He also likely needed to keep any movement by Nyarlathotep in check given how Yaldabaoth very existence came from a darker side of humanity and thus Philemon couldn't afford to take any great effort encase Nyarlathotep decided to make any moves which could cause another persona 2.
• During the scene after the cruise liner when it was going up in flames, did no one consider that their Personas could have helped them escape? Futaba has a UFO or giant floating sphere, Ryuji's Captain Kidd has a boat, and the protagonist could potentially have Personas that also fly or float.
  • Perhaps only Futaba can enter Necronomicon, and Captain Kidd's boat doesn't work as an actual boat? As for Joker, that's solely due to the fact that the game has no way of forcing a certain Persona on you outside of Arsène, who probably can't fly and, if he can, not with that many people.
  • It's a general issue with cutscenes: They never use their Personas unless it is for direct battle, I mean, why would Joker let himself be captured when he could have just busted out Arsène, who should be able to melt normal people without any effort, and just as easily knock them out if he pulls his punches a little? Joker had a reason not to, but Akechi didn't know that, and he never finds it suspicious that he was captured easily while still in the Metaverse, it seem like a solid, consistent case of Forgot About His Powers.
    • Except the Phantom Thieves expressly do not kill, which Akechi most definitely knows, and it seems similarly unlikely that the protagonist would risk using his persona's power on ordinary people.
    • The mere summoning of a Persona would likely throw all the guards off him, which is why I said "pull his punches", then there is the massive intimidation effect of the sight of the huge winged demon man would cause, Joker could easily have got away by just using his Persona defensively without ever even throwing a single attack, instead using it for defense and mobility, plus, that was only one example, there are multiple others, like Futaba never bringing up that she could user her Persona for easier mobility in Okumura's palace(Necronomicon is an UFO, no less, it would fit perfectly with the Palace, even Prometheus wouldn't look out of place in there), or Makoto never using her Persona for mobility despite it being a literal motorcycle, or trying to dodge the rubble from Futaba's Palace instead of trying to destroy most of it with their Personas, or literally any point in the game that using their Personas would be useful, like maybe using their Personas to bypass a few Palace puzzles, the only instance I remember of the main characters using their Personas outside of direct combat or the awakening of their Personas was Ann using Carmen to intimidate Shadow Kamoshida.
    • Except there's a good reason why Joker doesn't use Arsène or any other Persona against the police: he wanted to be caught as part of their plan.
    • It's mechanic issue. Party members don't use their Persona's outside cutscenes because they could be one of two Persona's depending on if you maxed their Confidant or not. Since that would require two variations of the cutscene that's too much work. Ann and Makoto use their Persona's in cutscenes in their first dungeon's because it would be impossible to max their confidants by then, but otherwise it's battle only.
  • It's also never established whether Personas can actually serve as means of transportation (except for Necronomicon, which, as stated above, only sees to be able to transport Futaba). Given that most Personas are only summoned for a few seconds at most while preparing an attack, it's unlikely that they could be maintained long enough to transport the protagonists across the water to safety.
    • Makoto DOES use hers as transportation in the first cutscene, though.
  • The power source of summoning persona power is hatred and animosity. In the cutscene mentioned above, Makoto was facing armies of guards and attempting to fight a way out. Also, the cruise ship sinking had already caught them off-guard. With all the distractions and lack of will to fight, it would be impossible to summon persona as they ran out of "mana" to do so.
  • I think it's a lot simpler than any of the above: Once a Palace starts collapsing, Persona powers effectively stop working for anything except their Thief Suits. That's why the Phantom Thieves have to GTFO on their own two legs after stealing the Treasure every single time (except the Museum because Madarame's Boss Battle took place close to the exit). The fact this didn't happen in Sae's Casino is a big clue that the party didn't actually stole her Treasure. Morgana can resist this the most, but even he returned to his normal cat form in Kamoshida's Castle, possibly because he wasn't expecting it.
  • In the Thieves' Den, Futaba mentions that her Persona is a one-person vehicle. It's too small to fit more than herself and too weak to support the weight of another person. This is probably by her subconscious desire to always have a personal safe haven where she doesn't have to deal with others. So even if it did still function, it wouldn't have been able to save Ryuji.
• If the police wanted to find the Phantom Thieves, wouldn't the calling cards be perfect evidence? Wouldn't their fingerprints be on them?
  • They presumably put on gloves, because that's what an intelligent criminal would do. Then again, Ryuji made the first one.......
  • A fingerprint wouldn't be very helpful as evidence in this case. Even if Ryuji left fingerprints on all of the cards, they can't be traced back to him if they don't have his prints on file. All it would prove is that the cards were made by the same person, which everyone takes as a given anyway.
    • However, given the "self-defense" incident, he likely does have his fingerprints on file.
    • His first batch of cards were posted all over the school's bulletin boards, he could easily say he simply touched the cards when they were posted up by the phantom thieves, like several students undoubtedly did. Yusuke was likely clever enough to avoid leaving prints and the cops wouldn't check for any possible paw prints from Morgana.
    • It's also entirely possible that prior to Kamoshida's change of heart, the school simply thought of the Phantom Thieves as a prank and disposed of the cards, unintentionally destroying the evidence, so the police wouldn't have the first set of cards to analyze, and after that, Yusuke was in charge of producing the cards, so he just knew better.
    • In Kunikazu and Sae's cases, Haru and Makoto are the ones who report finding the cards as well as the delivery girls, so they'd have an excuse for their fingerprints being on them. It's possible that unrelated people handling them tainted the evidence and caused any fingerprints to be useless.
• Speaking of the cops, I get that they would eventually try to track the Phantom Thieves down, but doing so as early as Madarame's confession feels too soon. Why would they get involved at this point, or even care about the Phantom Thieves to begin with? By this point, they haven't done anything illegal enough to warrant investigation. At present, their only targets were Kamoshida and Madarame, who confessed their own crimes. I'd get certain private investigators (read: Akechi) looking into what the Phantoms even are, but the police looking to arrest them already feels pointless (unless it's the Conspiracy, of course).
  • Late in the game after you beat the TV manager in Shido's palace, it's explicitly stated that Madarame was helping to fund Shido's campaign with the money he acquired from counterfeiting the Sayuri. So he was involved in the conspiracy in some capacity (even if he wasn't directly working on the whole mental shutdowns thing) meaning that those higher-up in the conspiracy would be incredibly suspicious if one of their sources of funding suddenly started confessing to all of his crimes.
• I get that Kawakami was lying to you, and there's an off-chance that you would not proceed with the Death Confidant, but when she mentioned her ill sister and her medical bills, why was there no option for you to recommend her to Dr. Takemi (who is a proficient doctor in her own right)? Sure, maybe Kawakami might turn down the offer for reasons, but it just bugs me.
  • She probably lives far away from Yongen-Jaya.
    • She could've used that as her excuse. My issue is with the player not given the chance.
    • Because the game didn't want to plan for Confidants to interact, as it would be a pain to code.
    • Also, even if you ARE in the Death Confidant...what would Takemi be able to do? Takemi can't afford free medication, and even her 'energetic' medicine can't cure a terminal illness. She doesn't even have much EQUIPMENT. She's not Black Jack.
  • I think part of the reason is because Joker realizes that it's an obvious lie. At Rank 3, Kawakami responds best to "I'll request you more often," without bringing up her sister. At Rank 4, you can say that you already knew that Kawakami was lying about her sister, and "Why did you lie to me?" isn't surprised as much as wanting to know the reason why Kawakami lied.
• What did "True Justice", the skill you get from Sae, even do?
  • It is basically an indicator that you're on the right track to the true ending.
• How can you get Arcana Burst from Judgement Personas before reaching the present? How does that work story wise, since you're in the past, relaying a story, for most of the game?
  • You don't get the Arcana Burst EXP until Judgement is maxed.
    • No, you do.
    • It is apparently buggy or different between regional versions: I did not get fusion bonuses for Judgment until after 11/20, but have heard reports that others did.
    • After having fused Satan with only a Rank 3 Judgement (this is in NG+ and maxed Strength), there was no Arcana Burst EXP at all, so Satan did not gain any experience, levels, or new skills upon fusion. It is unknown if this is indeed a bug or regional differences. Since there does not seem to be any bonuses, perhaps it actually could be a case of Gameplay and Story Integration. That is to say, since most of the game is technically a recounting of the events that lead up to the heist of the prologue and the Judgement Confidant is only established during the present day, then it is effectively non functioning up until the game catches up to the prologue because it was not technically established yet. So while the player may see the Judgement Confidant during the actual gameplay, it has no mechanical function until the game caches up to the present.
  • Since the protagonist is relaying his story to Sae, it's possible his current bond with her as he's relaying it would stick with him while he 'remembers' fusing a Judgement persona. Given the Clap Your Hands If You Believe rules of the collective unconscious, this could be really stealthily retconning all his personas (and by extension those he fused) to act as if he'd gotten that benefit from the bond when he fused them to begin with. Or, the most likely actual solution; a combination of Gameplay and Story Segregation and Unreliable Narrator.
  • The Velvet Room in this game may not have a linear timeline. P3 and P4 heroes need to enter into a contract to visit the Velvet Room and it's implied that the signed confession is P5 hero's contract, even though he signed it well into his partnership with the Velvet Room.
    • Wouldn't Joker's contract be the terms and agreements "Igor" reads out before the start of the game? I mean, he literally says "The contract has been sealed" upon selecting "I agree".
• Why the hell is the Principal in on the big conspiracy? Sure, we know the Black Mask visited the other palaces, but if Kamoshida was ever a person of interest to the higher-ups in the conspiracy it's never mentioned, so it can't be because of that. Just why the hell are these super powerful men with tons of resources at their disposal hounding a principal who's so useless he has to make the student council president do his dirty work?
  • I don't think the Principal's involvement was that major. IIRC, he only started receiving calls from the conspiracy after the Kamoshida incident. They probably realized what happened to Kamoshida and wanted to monitor the Phantom Thieves at Shujin Academy. I'm not exactly sure what the Principal would have told the police had he actually made it to the station but whatever it was, it could just be "I was contacted by so and so to spy on my students"
  • It's also shown in the Story Synopsis that the Principal was a 'minor' client of the Conspiracy. As in he possibly paid Shido in money/favors/information so that he could get Akechi to cause a mental shutdown in whomever the principal wanted. Once he was in, even as a member of the outmost circle, he pretty much had to obey any orders he received. Also, since the Conspiracy already knew about the Metaverse, any sign that there were others was a giant red flag that they needed to deal with.
  • In addition to buying off the woman Shido harassed, and having the police sweep the whole under the rug, the Conspiracy would also need to keep an eye on the other witness to make sure he didn't go around trying to give his account. Possibly paying the principal to let Joker be transferred and keep an eye on him for them. Its never explained just why the principle went out of his way to allow someone with a criminal record into his school when nowhere else would take him after all.
  • As for why the conspiracy would need the principal beforehand? Well, besides knowing about the phantom thieves, this place is where the best and brightest of the youthful generation Shido wants to use as his 'base' are coming up. Information and ways to influence them are GOLD.
• Why did the government decide they needed to get involved in Wakaba's research that, going from Futuba's understanding of the Metaverse and idea for how to use her own Palace, was likely based heavily in psychology and Jungian theory and more than likely had to look, even below the surface, like nothing more than a major revolution in psychology and mental health treatment? Certainly proof of the existence of the Collective Unconscious would change that entire field but why would the government feel the need to get involved at the scale they did and what kind of logical leaps did Shido have to make to realize he could use it to control the country?
  • Maybe Wakaba was working on a study of group psychology, or sociology. They're not uncommon, every so often organizations and governments try to better figure out how people think as individuals or groups. I think the timeline worked a little like this: 1) Wakaba makes a breakthrough about the Metaverse for her government think tank, maybe it was intentional, maybe it was coincidental, maybe Philemon, Nyarlathotep, or Yaldabaoth had a hand in it. 2) Akechi approaches Shido, and proves to him what he can do. 3) Shido realizes the utility, and since he's part of Wakaba's study, makes the connection. 4) Shido has Akechi kill Wakaba, and he makes the fake suicide note so that people think that Wakaba died because of Futaba, and not anything related to her research. 5) Shido starts up his conspiracy, using Akechi as his intel-gatherer, and assassin for hire.
  • Also, P2 and the Arena games make it clear that Shido's cronies are nowhere near the first government officials to be aware of Personas, Shadows, etc., and the power they hold. Wakaba's research probably wasn't the only Collective Unconscious-related project the Japanese government was pursuing.
  • Can you imagine what the government could do if they know how control cognitions? They might use it on other national leaders or important figureheads and turn any negotiations to their favor. If anyone what to interfere other countries' politics, this is the safest, and the most effective way.
• So if I understand this right, Yaldabaoth was born in the Metaverse from humanity's collective desire for social order. But that would indicate that the Metaverse created Yaldabaoth, not the other way around. If that's the case, then a major question remains: what in Philemon's name created the Metaverse?
  • The game seems to say that Yaldabaoth was born from humanity's desires and he subsequently created the Metaverse around him. The other final bosses in the previous Persona games were created the same way, through humanity's unconscious desires.
  • The Metaverse is another manifestation of the liminal realm between reality and the Collective Unconscious, same way the Midnight Channel was. Humanity itself created it and everything in it.
• When Akechi was speaking at a panel at Shujin Academy, he was about to reveal the identities of the Phantom Thieves but his phone goes off just before he says it. How did he time this perfectly?
  • It's not that difficult to time answers to a preset timer. There are magicians who literally make a career out of it, in fact.
  • I, too, wonder this.Akechi pulls his phone from his pocket when it rings. There's nothing on the podium. Makoto has a clear head-to-toe view of him the whole time, so he can't be doing anything. He's also using both hands to e.g. gesture, lean on the podium, point at Joker when he's like "oh, you want to know who I think they are?", etc. - but of course, he's also wearing gloves. We see him from from the side opposite Makoto when the phone rings - so he doesn't trigger anything surreptitious with that hand. Then again, if it's very surreptitious (e.g. a button in his glove) there's a textbox in the way. There's a clock in the gym, but it's on the wall beside the stage, out of Akechi's line of sight. The anime artbook indicates that there's no clock on the back wall.Makoto is asking the questions, but Akechi prompts her, very obviously, to ask him who the Phantom Thieves are. "You're not going to ask me who they are?" It's an impressive, and probably very simple, piece of stage trickery. And it's a fact that it's exactly five minutes and one second from when Makoto starts to speak to the phone call. That suggests a timer. Akechi also slows his rate of speech quite noticeably in the runup to the call - that suggests to me that, with his hook safely baited, he's now trying to run out that five-minute clock. I don't think he's working with an accomplice - that's not his style, and e.g. Kobayakawa, who might have obliged but probably couldn't be trusted, is dead at this point. My preliminary guess would be that he schedules the call himself, and has some kind of time check (e.g. quiet vibration alarms) set on his phone to keep him on schedule. "the call will occur at the five-minute mark, and you've now been talking for one minute, two minutes, three minutes, four minutes, four minutes 10 seconds..." Then again, it wouldn't surprise me if he has some astonishing inner time sense. The simplest solution is that he has a button hidden in his right glove (opposite Makoto), which will trigger his phone to ring. But that precise five-minute timestamp is suspicious as hell.

• Assuming Cafe Leblanc only has a minimal bathroom, since it's a restaurant, how often does the Protagonist bathe or shower?
  • There's a bathhouse right across from Leblanc.
    • Using that bath consumes time each day. How does he stay so clean otherwise?
    • That's in gameplay. In real life, your average bath takes nowhere near as long, unless you fell asleep (which isn't something you should be doing in such a situation). So presumably he stays clean the same overall way the rest of us do.
  • Moreover, washing the dirty clothes at the laundromat consumes time or requires paying/asking Kawakami. You can go months without using this function. How does the protagonist keep his clothes clean? It's not like the third game, where you can assume all the kids' clothes are cleaned as part of a dorm service, or the fourth game where you can assume Nanako or Dojima does it.
  • Another possibility is that, as the game skips most mornings, he does laundry then with money set aside for it.
  • This actually explains a lot. It's not that he's not doing laundry/taking a bath...it's that he's taking a LONG bath, or throwing in ADDITIONAL laundry that he couldn't clean otherwise. The bathhouse gives you a bonus because you spend HOURS soaking. The laundromat takes time because you're throwing in additional clothes you didn't have room for, that are COVERED in mud, to the point you can't tell what they were!
• How exactly do mental shutdowns work? They are incredibly inconsistent. In the case of Ohya's partner Kayo, it is clear that mental shutdowns don't always kill the person. Also, in the case of Kunikazu Okumura, it is also clear that the process of killing someone's shadow doesn't immediately kill the person. Lastly, how are all the mental shutdowns timed perfectly?
  • This is an All There in the Manual/Viewers Are Geniuses issue dragging on since way back Persona 3. Long Story Short, Persona 3 Club Book: World Guide Q&A explains that a person's Shadow is a fundamental working component of their mind, especially one as complex as that of a human being. Depending on what kind of harm befall them, you can get of several and potentially nasty side effects:
    Deprive someone's from their Shadow without destroying it, and you have a case of Apathy Syndrome, Mass Lethargy Syndrome or a "mental shutdown" as it's called in Persona 5. Corrupt them as Akechi Goro did and the victim goes into a psychotic breakdown. Kick a Shadow's ass while in its berserk form, and you will put its progenitor well in their way of a psychological breakthrough as it happened with the Investigation Team sans their leader. Similarly, take away the metaphysical manifestation of the underlying unconscious motivations fueling their narcissistic personality disorders, a.k.a. their Treasure, and they will have a "change of heart".
    Completely destroying someone's Shadow will most likely kill the progenitor or turn them into a vegetable, but I noticed that many people are confusing a person's Shadow with a Cognition of them, which aren't the same thing at all. For example, Ann kills her bikini-clad double in the first Palace and suffered no backlash because that was merely a materialization of how Kamoshida thinks of her and no more real than the furniture of his castle. The death of Haru's father is another source of confusion because that person should have died soon after the culprit offed his Shadow, but that's just Gameplay and Story Segregation because the player can finish his Palace well before the press conference on October 11th. Same thing happened with Futaba who could have easily dealt with the Medjed issue but didn't do it until the storyline-mandated date.
    • I think mental shutdowns sometimes kill people and sometimes leave them either completely incapacitated or in a vegetative state, as there are multiple different outcomes among mental shutdown victims throughout the game. To explain Kunikazu Okumura's death, it should be noted that the circumstances of his shutdown were very unusual, as he is the only person we know of who had his heart stolen prior to the death of his shadow. It is entirely possible that the act of confessing his crimes is what killed him, explaining the delay between the killing of his shadow and his mental shutdown. To explain this, it's possible that the last remaining part of Okumura's shadow was his treasure, which was only truly destroyed when he confessed his crime, causing him to die. This may also explain why Kobayakawa died when he was about to confess his crimes.
  • My impression is that killing the Shadows didn't kill their hosts at all, just caused the breakdowns (a.k.a. made them go vegetative, but still alive), and the Conspiracy was finishing the job later. They were clearly manipulating the causes of death that were announced, it's not really beyond their power to have just disposed of the victims while they were hospitalised.
    • It didn't even cause an immediate breakdown in Okumura. After his Shadow was killed, the SIU Director said "Arrangements have been made. A sudden mental shutdown will occur at just the right time." Keep in mind that this must happen at least a day before his mental shutdown, so the reaction couldn't have been immediate in any case. Apparently Akechi has some control over when his victims suffer their mental shutdowns, and killing their Shadow is the first step of the process, not the last.
  • During Akechi's boss fight, he shows the ability to make shadows go berserk. This causes the mental shutdowns. He would make the people turn violent and than solve the cases. Killing the shadows, kills the person.
    • ...No, that's not how it works. Akechi's ability to cause rampages/psychotic breakdowns and mental shutdowns are two very different things. "Psychotic breakdown" is technically an incorrect translation of what he does to them, but to get to the point: The derailment of the train in April and the runaway truck in May are examples of rampages/breakdowns, and two months later, you get a Wild Duck Burger employee who streaked and took nudes of himself, which doesn't really constitute as a "psychotic breakdown." In both instances, those three people lived without remembering what they did. Per Akechi's definition, his rampaging powers "unshackles the chains of the heart" - which is exactly what he does to the two Shadow flunkies he brings with him to his first boss fight, and then on himself for his second boss fight. The two flunkies died because the thieves killed them, and Akechi also survived. To go back to the rampages: the affected get arrested for what they did, and Akechi takes credit for solving those cases. Mental shutdowns, on the other hand, have more or less been around since Persona 2 and share some consistent traits: death of the Shadow, either directly (I.E Akechi shooting Okumura's Shadow) or indirectly (I.E Shadow Yukino committing suicide in an alternate scenario of Innocent Sin), followed up by the person entering a vegetative state. As for the rate of death, I imagine that the person's health and mental strength might influence it; remember that Haru mentions her father being in poor health well before the shutdown, whereas Wakaba wasn't completely done in until she was struck by a car. There's also a very stark difference between their personalities and mental strength.
  • Okumura was said to have a weak heart before this, likely caused by his stressful work. The physical and mental shock of his Shadow dying was enough to strain his ailing heart until it a failed completely. I wouldn't have been surprised that the whole reason the conspiracy picked Okumura as the target to frame the Thieves was because they knew he'd die from the shock alone, letting all blame fall on the Thieves rather than having him "commit suicide" the way they did for other victims like the Principal and Wakaba.
• Why did Morgana take the form of a cat in the real world? Sure, he is formed from the last remaining hope from humanity, but why a cat, a mascot one nonetheless? Is there some kind of deeper meaning behind this? Can we just assume that our cognition of hope is that of a mascot cat?
  • Well Morgana was created with mankind's remaining hope, but his job was to track down and aid the Trickster, aka Joker. He was most likely given a cute and appealing form so not to frighten those he was supposed to be helping, and it's possible that Igor didn't have enough time or strength to give him a human form, like his other attendants. Basically; because cats are cute and previous protagonists have always had the option to be a Kindhearted Cat Lover.
  • He's a cat burglar.
  • The reason he takes the real world form of a cat is the same as the reason why only Metaverse users can understand him and why he was able to survive the destruction of the Metaverse: cognition. When Joker and Skull first found Mona, they thought he was a cat. They never stopped thinking of him as a cat, so he ended up taking on that form in the real world as well.
  • Okay but all that doesn’t explain why Igor made him in the form of an anthropomorphic cat in the first place.
• If Makoto was trained in Aikido (which focuses on joint locks, grapples, and throws) than how and why does her fighting style revolve around kicks and punches suited for strike based martial arts like karate?
  • I'm pretty sure Makoto is venting her repressed anger in battle, so she uses a more aggressive style.
  • Remember that Makoto got easily overpowered and restrained by Kaneshiro's men despite all her training in Aikido once they realized she was using her phone to listen in on their conversation. This probably became a very sore point for her, and given that Persona Users get a considerable Magical Enhancement to their physical abilities in the Metaverse (seriously, they put anime ninjas to shame when traversing a Palace, never mind how they can punch/kick/slash/bludgeon Shadows without even using their Personas), Makoto realized she could actually afford to fight more like a brawler even if the style didn't suit her in the real world. If so, I assume it was indeed very, very cathartic.
  • The truth is probably simpler. A sizable chunk of the shadows the Phantom Thieves fight against don't have human proportions, which would render a lot of Makoto's Aikido training useless. Any competent self-defense course will strive for basic proficiency in all areas of combat, so Makoto is almost certain to understand the basics of striking an opponent, which would be much more reliable.
    • Alternatively, Makoto has some training in other martial arts (either from trying others before discovering Aikido or from Sae giving her at least some lessons in Kickboxing (which seems likely, given that a lot of her moves draw heavily on kickboxing-styled techniques), with the rest coming from watching things (movies/tv)
• At the start of the game, Sae says that the "best case" scenario for the Protagonist is life in prison, possibly even the death penalty. I'm sorry, what? First of all, the Protagonist is a minor who only had one offense to his record prior to the whole Phantom Thief thing, and second of all, since when is stealing a capital offense?
  • Stealing isn't the only charge he's facing. According to the Rabid Cop from the beginning of the game, he's being charged with obstruction of justice, blackmail, defamation, possession of weapons, and manslaughter. They could easily, and are probably planning to, bump up the manslaughter charge to full-blown murder and add terrorism to that list, which would definitely add up to a life sentence. You're right about the death penalty, though — execution of minors is against international law, so it would take some serious BS to get Joker to face the noose.
    • Knowing Japan's screwed-up legal system and Sae's character at the time (i.e. she still had a palace), she probably lied to Joker to try and coerce him to spill the beans. In reality, a life-sentence probably would've been waiting for him at the worst-case scenario.
  • Assuming it had gone as the villains planned he'd have been convicted of every crime the Conspiracy did themselves, which were several crimes on a national scale and multiple murders and assaults in the mental shutdowns. That would have been serious. But that's cause he was framed. In the end, when he gets convicted of the actual crimes the Thieves committed, there's a broadcast violation and trespassing, both slap on the wrist offenses.
  • Sae is probably bluffing. She's a prosecutor, after all, plus she still has the warped desire to win that gave her her Palace, so she's not on Joker's side, even if she's less brutal about interrogation than the police. She probably knows full well that there's a good chance they won't be able to get any of the charges to stick, let alone life imprisonment being a best case scenario. She's just trying to scare him into giving a detailed confession to use against him in court.
    • Sae is DEFINITELY bluffing. Japan is a signatory to the Convention on the Rights of Child, which forbids the death penalty for children. Granted, the police have violated other provisions of the convention by torturing and drugging the protagonist, and forcing him to sign a confession, but there's difference between what they can get away with in secret in a darkened room, and what they can do in a high profile trial that will have international attention.
    • To be fair though, there is a powerful political figure out to get them with connections in very dark places (Sae wouldn't know that, however, given the circumstances presented post Sae Niijima's Palace)
  • She wasn't the one who set up the charges; in fact, she's only there by convenience and sent to avoid backlash, with no power over what's happening at all, especially in practice... and it doesn't help that her own values are distorted, as evidenced by her palace, where she cares more about winning/convicting the kid than actual justice/rule-upholding. Moreover, the ones who actually gave him said charges want him dead, and have no hesitation in breaking any laws behind-the-scenes, to get their enemies out of the picture. With such corruption, why is it even a surprise?
  • They knew the charges wouldn't hold, that's why they sent Akechi to murder you and label it as suicide.
  • Additionally, the entire thing might be rigged and set up for you to win, not lose by Yaldabaoth. Remember that he has a reason to do this; That's because if you won or Akechi won, he will still take over anyway. The entire trial has no consequence to you or him, at least not what is written on paper.
• Weapons in the Metaverse work on Clap Your Hands If You Believe—the Shadows mistake them for the real thing, so they're affected as such. So somebody explain Akechi's energy weapons to me. I suppose they could fit in well enough with the general loopiness of the Metaverse (they wouldn't be out of place in Okumura's Palace, for instance) but still...
  • You say that like Morgana wasn't called out in game by Ryuji right after the gun mechanic was introduced for using a slingshot that is on par with the fake gun he gave Joker for this exact same reason. The same conversation basically established everything Morgana said regards to "Thinking it's a real gun makes it hurt as much as a real gun" is BS; A more likely reason is the weapons work because the people using them act like these should do something to the shadows which leads shadows to think they should be hurt (except when they don't) even if the weapon used is silly out of context. I'm more confused at why Morgana using a slingshot with things that look more like rocks than bullets doesn't get the same amount as snark as Goro's toys, since if his tech was real they could do a lot of damage... Assuming they didn't cauterize every wound they made closed on impact, keeping them from causing health issues like infection or bleeding.
    • Slingshots are real and can really hurt though.
    • Slingshots are real, slingshots can cause serious damage to people, slingshots cannot cause the same harm as a pistol or a revolver, not even close, yet Morgana's gun damage is on the same ballpark as Joker's or Makoto's.
    • In the real world, certainly not, but the Metaverse doesn't work on the same principles. If Morgana's cognition is that his slingshot is pretty powerful and can hurt enemies, then so is it reflected on his weapon's part. His cocky attitude no doubt helps in that regard.
    • Except it's stated by Morgana that the ENEMY'S cognition has to see it as a threat, not their own.
    • Shadows are dumb. They've forgotten what they are, they can't see people more than two feet away or hiding behind a chair, and in negotiations they will frequently try to attack the people pointing guns at them. Maybe Personas or ruler-based Shadows are smarter, but it's pretty clear that the garden-variety mooks are just parroting whatever shreds of human thought they remember. If someone points a weapon at them, they'd get more scared than a rational human being would- especially if the person holding the weapon looks confident. Really, it's remarkable they can recognize weapons at all, much less distinguish between modern and archaic ones.
  • It's about the cognition of it; it's not so much that they think Crow's weapons are real as that they perceive them as a laser sword and as a ray gun, and they know that in fiction, a laser sword to the face is going to hurt, so they get hurt as if they were being hit by a (real) laser sword, and the fact that laser swords aren't a real thing is rendered irrelevant. The same logic is used to why Morgana can turn into a car. People know cats can't turn into vehicles, but works of fiction managed to make them perceive a cat becoming a vehicle as a possibility.
  • The above is also the reason fake Igor throws you out of the game when you refuse to accept the game as fiction. The Demiurge has no intention of allowing the player to play by their own rules, ESPECIALLY if he knows that the player is the true individual responsible for stopping Nyarlathotep, Nyx, Erebus, Izanami, and perhaps even YHVH from Shin Megami Tensei. He knows that besides Igor, the player is his biggest threat, and by forcing you to acknowledge HIS reality, he imprisons you like Joker, Igor and Lavenza.
• Two questions regarding the final segment of the game. First, when Morgana comes back after revealing he only died in the Metaverse, how in the name of fuck did they understand him when he's supposed to just be a regular cat, while Sojiro, who IIRC was able to hear him earlier in the game, didn't? Hell, how do even the Thieves themselves understand him? Second, which is much more minor, in the final scene, where does the gang go when the Protagonist leaves and he goes inside their van?
  • First, Sojiro was never able to hear Morgana, and they can probably hear him because they were in the Metaverse, and that still applies. And in the ending, they all went to the beach.
    • I could have sworn Sojiro said, "Did that cat just talk?" shortly after discovering the existence of the Phantom Thieves.
    • He did say that, but that was him asking if Morgana said words when he meowed, instead of reacting to the fact that he DID speak. The only way you can hear Morgana speak is if you enter the Metaverse, which is an important reason why the Phantom Thieves suspected Akechi of being the traitor.
    • I thought the requirement to be able to hear Morgana was to have a Persona, yes, Futaba at one point says that you have to have entered the Metaverse, but Sae entered her own Palace, very briefly but it should still count, yet at no point she ever reacts to Morgana's words, or indicate in any shape or form she can hear him, it seemed to me that Futaba was just guessing, she did sound unsure when she gave the explanation, as it is something she has no way to actually test.
    • This troper decided to look it up, and found that hearing Morgana is tied to hearing Morgana speak inside the Metaverse, which changes one's cognition to account for Morgana talking.
    • Futaba claims this, but also says it's a guess, and in the end the whole crowd, including Sae and Sojiro hear Morgana talking during the final battle, yet still it's only the Persona users that can hear him. Between that and the likely hood of other Persona game characters probably going to have to be able to understand him in spinoffs, and it's more likely a Persona thing.
    • The whole crowd hears Morgana, but do they SEE Morgana talking? Otherwise it's just another voice. Why would their cognition change if they didn't actually see the cat talk?
    • But Ryuji was able to understand Morgana since his first day in the Metaverse, when only Joker got his Persona.
    • Anybody can understand Morgana in the Metaverse. The real question is whether Persona Users who never saw him talk in the Metaverse beforehand could understand him in the real world anyways. Ryuji doesn't count as a counterexample because he got his Persona on April 12th and Morgana didn't manage to track down the guys until two days later.
    • It's definitely a Persona thing. Sae and Akechi had both been in the Metaverse; neither of them met, much less heard, Morgana speak IN the Metaverse. But Akechi could understand Morgana anyway outside of it before he joined the team. So either the explanation that "you need to see him and hear him speak in the Metaverse to change your real-world cognition of a talking cat" is bunk, and all you REALLY need to understand him in the real world is a Persona of your own, or it's the writers trying to be too clever by half and accidentally creating a plot hole.
    • Except there's no reason to believe that Akechi wasn't spying on them as they were talking to Shadow Madarame. He could have heard Morgana talk.
    • If that were the case, he would have seen the entire group, not just Morgana, and thus would have blackmailed, interfered with, or eliminated them much sooner. Considering he acts immediately upon gaining an advantage, it would have served no one, least of all him or Shido, if he had seen the P Ts during the Madarame heist and sat on that info for at least three months.
    • In the anime, Akechi is indeed spying on them at the end of Madarame's palace.
    • But it was a part of Akechi and Shido's plan to make the Phantom Thieves rise and then fall in the public eye, and to gain popularity (particularly for Shido) as a result. By Madarame's palace, the Phantom Thieves were only just gaining popularity, so Akechi confronting them by this point wouldn't have helped him or Shido in gaining popularity. If Futaba, someone who clearly knows a lot about how the Metaverse works, said that hearing Morgana talk in the Metaverse causes someone to be able to hear him in the real world, then this is likely to be the case, especially since Morgana made no comment of disagreement.
    • It’s not a persona thing, in strikers Zenkichi could understand him long before he got a persona. It’s simply that if you hear Morgana talk in the metaverse, you can understand him.
• There's a scene where Makoto speaks to Akechi in some unknown area, pictured here◊. Where the hell is this? Is this Akechi's school? If so, what would Makoto be doing there instead of Shujin?
  • That's an omission by the localization team. At the beginning of that scene, there's an untranslated sign that reads "全国統括公関模試" and "試験会場". I think the former says something along the lines of "nationwide standardized mock examination" and the latter simply means "examination hall". My guess is that Makoto and Akechi took some sort of standardized test that day as part of the application process for college and ran into each other by chance.
  • The anime subtitles actually translate the sign as a mock examination.
• Sojiro expresses concern that a cat in his cafe would get him in trouble, but Japan is famous for having cafes full of cats.
  • At the start of the game, Sojiro is actively trying to be a hardass towards Joker in an attempt of creating an image of a tough authority, and he was antagonizing every last thing Joker said and did to that end, it's also worth remember that a few minutes after saying that Morgana could be a problem, he comes back with a plate of food, so Morgana was never an issue, he was just finding an excuse to keep acting harsh towards Joker(something he seem to have trouble doing, as his true nature of being a kind and well-meaning man constantly shines through the cracks of his facade).
  • Not every cafe can be a cat cafe. I looked it up and it seems like the cats are separated from the area where people eat.
  • I don't know how it actually works, but it's not unlikely a permit of some sort that Sojiro doesn't just randomly have is required. In the States, due to the health code a cat cafe is at least two rooms—you buy the coffee "next door" and then head to where the cats are.
  • Something similar comes up in the previous game, when Chie told about how she first met Yukiko. According to Chie, Yukiko was depressed because her parents wouldn't let her keep a dog; in the manga, she says that it's because her parents run an inn.
• The Phantom Thieves should really be taking more care with keeping their communications secure. During the Medjed arc, Makoto suspects the reason why Alibaba knows so much about them is because their phones have been hacked and their chat logs compromised, which by the way is a very real thing that could happen. While it turns out that this wasn't the case, it's a bit concerning that none of the Phantom Thieves make any contingency plans for phone security, such as deleting their group chats about Phantom Thief activities after a short time. Especially when it dawns on them that they are going up against one of the most powerful politicians in Japan.
  • Yeeeeeaaaahhhh... the Phantom Thieves did not do a great job with operational security. Modern phones are generally hard to hack unless you can get physical access to them, but they needed to do more than just delete the logs, they needed to encrypt them with something like Signal. By far though, the biggest security threat they faced was Ryuji's big fat mouth.
  • It is possible that the Metaverse Navigator protects them from such a thing. Again the Phantom Thieves aren't actually "rebels," just cards in a solitaire game for Yaldabaoth to prove that humanity wants control, not freedom. You need to keep the livestock safe before you slaughter them.
  • Fixed in the anime where after they speculate that Alibaba may have hacked their phones, Makoto emphasizes to the team that they need to secure their online communications and rely more on face-to-face conversations for the really important information.
• How did the police ambush at the Casino work? Once the game catches up with the recollection, Makoto theorizes that Akechi pulled all those cops (and their vehicles!) into the Metaverse, on the basis that people don't realize they're IN the Metaverse when their surroundings don't change. However, they caught Joker literally outside the Casino and they would have seen him break through a huge stained glass window. Even if they received an anonymous tip that summoned them to the courthouse, and even if actual casinos have plain, nondescript back alleys, they must have noticed that the courthouse looked nothing like that. Also, while Akechi would have easily sent the tip and timed it so the cops gathered outside just as the Shadow Sae fight was ending, wouldn't he have needed to actually exit the Casino, exit the Metaverse, find those cops, and pull them in with his own Navigator App without revealing his identity to them, none of which he could have done while he was in the party? Setting that up would've needed more time than he was afforded by Joker's diversion.
  • Is it ever stated anywhere that those cops didn't know what was going on?
    • In a Dummied Out and thus not conclusively canonical scene there are some cutscenes of cops confirming their confusion about the meta-verse. For whatever reason it was cut out.
  • You have to remember that Shido and The Conspiracy have Wakaba's research on the Metaverse, meaning that they probably know more than the PTs do. It wouldn't be too hard to imagine they know how to get more people into that world than we know.
    • Going off on a limb here but who's to say that all of those officers are even real? Akechi could've dropped a tip to Sae's cognition of the police. Everything and everyone outside of the courthouse is un-distorted, so Akechi could've dropped a tip to the Cognitive Police who responded like the real ones would. Then after they caught Joker, he had a few cronies who he actually did bring in from the real world grab him and take him back.
    • In one of the earlier interrogation segments while talking about the Metaverse Sae talks about how what Joker is saying about the Metaverse lines up with the statements of the police officers who arrested him.
    • It is also possible that the officers simply perceived the Casino differently since the world has been revealed to behave as one might expect it to and things like guns work if you think they might. This is, however, subverted by the fact that the persona users who haven't obtained their personas yet who enter the Metaverse seem to be able to perceive the Metaverse's distortions but this could easily also be subverted by suggesting that those with the potential to have personas are simply able to perceive these distortions and those without the potential cannot.
  • We're overthinking this. The cops chosen were probably just particularly loyal to Shido or one of his goons and sworn to secrecy. They were brought into Sae's Palace, ordered to remain in the relatively normal area outside the main building, and told to grab the first person they see escape it on Akechi's orders. They were kept out of the most bizarre areas and bribed, threatened, or just plain ordered to not ask too many questions or tell anyone what they saw. The few not smart enough to follow orders like good little drones likely met the same sort of "accident" intended for the interrogation room's guard.
• On the note of the Casino: as detailed on the other Fridge page and elsewhere, what really unnerves Makoto is darkness, as in "absence of illumination" darkness. So how the damn hell does she keep it together so well during the pitch-black portion of the Casino challenges? Sure, she's armed this time, fighting for her sister and Gameplay and Story Segregation probably apply to not mess with your preferred party composition, but there isn't even a reference to her previous fear of the dark.
  • Makoto's fear of the dark is something that's Played for Laughs and used to fuel the Ship Tease with her and Joker. It's also an attempt to show that Makoto isn't as mature and serious as she makes herself out to be, and that underneath her somewhat arrogant exterior, she's just like the rest of them when it comes to being scared. You could also argue that the situation in the Sakura house was something that genuinely took Makoto by surprise, while she had time to get used to the situation in the Casino.
    • Also keep in mind how different the situations were between the thieves entering the Sakura residence compared to the Casino palace. In the former it was already a stressful situation as they were entering a place they shouldn't be that could've gotten their leader into trouble, and it was made worse with several events that caught the team off guard (the power going out suddenly and Futaba sneaking up on them). In the latter, the group is going through a place similar to places they've gone through multiple times already and thus are prepared for the unexpected, and they were at least warned that the maze would be dark (even if it was understated just how dark it actually was). Basically, in one situation she was caught completely off guard while already anxious and the other she was prepared for what was going on. All of this isn't even taking into account how different dealing with the situations is: Trying to explain to someone why a group of people basically broke into their house vs. being able to just beat up whatever stops you by harnessing supernatural beings in a group.
  • Having a Persona gives someone clarity, with a better hold on their feelings and emotions. Makoto knows deep down that she's not really afraid of the dark. When shes with Johanna in the other world she realizes that.
  • Also, the Thieves are stronger in the Metaverse than in the normal world, so it's entirely possible that Makoto isn't scared because she knows that she's more powerful and that she and her friends can handle whatever is lurking in the dark.
• Does Mishima even know the Phantom Thieves personally besides Joker? I find it odd that he doesn't attend their meetings when they would be important to him too. Especially when the PTs are being slandered.
  • He knows Joker, Ryuji, and possibly Ann, are on the team, but only Joker personally. Mishima's relationship with the PTs is closer to a band and a groupie than anything. He admires the PTs and what they do, but only knows them by their alter-egos not as people. Being a supporter, no matter how big does not entitle him to sit in on or have a say in the group's meetings either. Since he's still not a real team member.
• What is Madarame's long-term plan? As of his treasure getting stolen, his income and reputation rely on plagiarizing off his students until they can't take it anymore, at which point he uses his influence to drive them out of the art world. The thing is, his plan ensures that he can never have a successful student again: if a student puts up with the plagiarism for the long term, Madarame can't allow the student to graduate and become an independent artist, since the fact that the former students' paintings are in a style that Madarame abruptly stops producing once the student leaves would make the plagiarism too obvious to ignore. On the other hand, if he just drives all his students out of the art world after he's done with them, it will eventually become obvious that none of his students go on to become successful artists, and he'd stop getting new students, since he'd have a reputation of being a terrible teacher.
  • You're forgetting the fact that Madarame's not as smart as he thinks he is. He's a scam artist, sure, but he's doing something someone has already been accused of doing in 1911 (selling fakes of the Mona Lisa). More than a scammer, he's a complete hack. Remember, his Boss form is a bunch of separate, poorly drawn parts of his own face. I wouldn't be surprised if the only "art" he was TRULY capable of was "color between the lines" coloring books.
    • Wasn't it said that, at some point, Madarame did do his own art before plagiarizing his students?
    • Madarame was an artist alongside Kawanabe, but he didn't become famous until the Sayuri, which Yusuke's mother made. It's clear that he didn't make it this far on his own merits.
  • Madarame knew what he was doing because, whether or not he was a good artist or a creative villain, he knew the art world. He knew that once he reached a certain level of fame and prestige nearly anything he did would be valuable (as art critics can find artistic merit in almost anything if someone says they should and not being known for a particular style gives him enormous leeway) and he'd still have a number of paintings he could sell for significant amounts of money in the event he needed more on top of the counterfeiting business he was already involved with. As an already-older man Madarame didn't really have to keep the plan going for too much longer to live out his life in luxury.
• How does Madarame intend for his secret side business to keep going? You would think that once enough people have bought fake Sayuri's that they'd eventually notice and word would eventually get out that potentially tens or even hundreds of people have the Sayuri. Even if the public gives Madarame the benefit of the doubt and assumes the nonexistent thief who "stole" it was replicating it themself, it still wouldn't change the outcome that people would stop buying the painting.
  • Madarame's Shadow described the basic sales pitch as him personally meeting the mark and that this is a secret trade that can't be allowed to go public. This works because his targets either don't get together or are so enamored with the idea of getting a one-of-a-kind deal with the genuine artist that they keep their mouths shut. The ones that don't would not only have to put their word against his, but risk embarrassment and legal trouble for the scam. As long as Madarame's reputation held out, and he kept up the supply of new stolen work from his students to take credit for, he could keep the scam going indefinitely.
• When the protagonist calls "Becky" to trigger the Rank 7 event of the Temperance Confidant, a nurse answers her cell phone on her behalf and immediately informs him that Kawakami fainted and even gives him precise instructions on how to get to her, including the hospital's address and her room number. Considering all the regulations related to medical confidentiality, why did the nurse tell the protagonist all that without him even having to come up with a story to get her to talk, such as he's a relative or something?
  • When you check into a hospital they usually ask for a family member or friend they can call in case of an emergency. By that point in the Confidant Kawakami probably had The Protagonist listed as a close friend and told the nurse it was alright. Figuring that he'd be very concerned when he found out she was in the hospital and would want to see her.
  • But it wasn't the hospital who contacted the protagonist, but instead it was him who called Kawakami's cell phone and a nurse answered it in her stead. Maybe she had his number (or rather, the number of Leblanc's yellow pay phone) saved as something like "Master♥" and the nurse just assumed he was her boyfriend.
  • Was implying that the nurse recognized The Protagonist's number as one Kamakami had given when he called. The idea of her thinking it was her boyfriend does makes sense.
  • Another theory is that Kawakami, in an attempt to keep her "lives" separate from each other, has the protagonist listed as an emergency contact on her "Delivery Maid Health" phone, as the protagonist is aware of both "sides" of her life and is unlikely to extort "favors" from her, as the protagonist is pretty much the equivalent of a guy who hires an escort for company rather than "company", if you catch my drift. Royal adds phone conversations that take place on the doorstep of Leblanc, meaning that Kawakami knows the protagonist's personal phone number, either from the initial contact with the "Maid Health" agency or from the ludicrous amount of information Japanese school teachers appear to be allowed to have access to.
• Wakaba Isshiki had a mental shutdown, and that led to her collapse and subsequent death-by-car, right? But to have that happen in the first place, she would need to have a Shadow somewhere in the Metaverse, right? So that it could be taken/killed? Actually, wouldn't all the mentally shutdown people need one? How did Akechi find them? Were they all distorted?
  • Presumably, the Shadows of every individual of the general public is likely in Mementos, but you can't access them without a full name.
  • The exposition dump between Shido and Akechi after Joker's release from interrogation makes it clear that Shido had it in for Wakaba and her research after Akechi offers his "services" (which was restricted to the psychotic breakdowns/rampaging at that point; no assassinations yet) to him. He likely did some digging, pulled up her full name, and he sent Akechi off to take her Shadow out (the shutdown being encouraged by him, which his Shadow tells to the thieves before fighting him). Since Shido had so many enemies, he was likely able to give Akechi names, and he'd send him off to Mementos (where Wakaba's Shadow was likely located) either to make them go nutty (I.E the Wild Duck Burger chef who took nude selfies of himself mentioned early in the game; the train conductor who derails the subway in an anime cutscene) or spur a shutdown (I.E Ohya's partner, Okumura, etc.)
• How was Shido's calling card made? Everyone's in their Phantom Thieves outfits but cameras don't work in the Metaverse - unless it's only phone cameras that don't work, but that seems a weird distinction to make.
  • They don't need to be in their actual Phantom Thieves costumes. They were shrouded in literal shadow, except for Joker, and even then, it's only of his extreme close-up. For all we know, Futaba just used some nifty photoshopping in conjunction with her eidetic memory.
  • Futaba seems to be able to use technology in the Metaverse when others can't thanks to her Persona. She probably did it.
    • Mitsuru's motorcycle in P3 had a Plume of Dusk embedded in it, allowing it to function in the Dark Hour. Not impossible that Futaba could have used similar principles to put something together, given her Persona.
  • There's actually a simpler explanation. Cosplay. They just made 'fake' outfits, and filmed it in the cafe's attic with a green sheet behind them. With a plushy Mona.
  • Futaba routinely uses her actual laptop in the Metaverse. This shows that at least some electronic technology still functions there. She could have made that video with just that alone.
• Perhaps this is just a complaint, but isn't Sae's "you did good, kiddies, now back off and leave running the world to the "reliable" adults" lecture a bit of a headscratcher? She's talking to a group that outmaneuvered her, a murderer who'd been running loose for over a year, the entire police force and a conspiracy that's had everything their own way for at least a year. However, when she enters the story in the present day, she assumes control (albeit in a polite and reasonable way) and assures them that once they've dealt with Mementos and gotten rid of their pesky superpowers, trustworthy adults will take care of running the world. Yet presumably "trustworthy adults" have been around all along, and haven't been able to do anything to halt The Conspiracy or even the "smaller" injustices the Thieves have suffered — Sae herself had to have a change of heart before she got her head back in the game. On top of that, those trustworthy adults didn't help Joker much: he still ends up wrongfully imprisoned, and it's his friends and contacts who bail him out. I know that this is really for narrative purposes and to ensure that The Magic Goes Away, as well as addressing Sae's concern that what they were doing was dangerous and she didn't want them in harm's way, but given the nature of the story it comes across as another adult assuming a role that they aren't really entitled to. Was Sae's speech meant to come across as slightly condescending and hypocritical, or was it supposed to be purely sincere?
  • How is she not entitled to it, considering she's (in a way) taking responsibility for her previous distorted behavior, as well as the reality that at the end of the day, who else but the adults can this job be left to, now that the Metaverse is erased? Particularly since overall, those reliable adults were under the same issue: a growing distortion of the heart that was the fault of a false god's rigged game, and what they really needed to get back on the right path, was to remove it (which we did by game's end). So instead of an entire society that behaves as it did in-game - ie not getting involved, going with injustices because it's 'easier' than speaking up, etc - they now have a society that will at least try to become better, dealing with such situations in the place of the Phantom Thieves. So I'd say purely sincere, in all senses - condescending is up to opinion, but hypocritical doesn't exactly apply, since the peoples' previous behavior wasn't their fault (they weren't even aware of it, as well).
  • Sae phrases it as asking for a chance to do her part to help. As capable as the Phantom Thieves are, people like Sae are the only ones who can actually convict Shido of his crimes.
  • I don't think Sae was being condescending. She was acknowledging that the adult world had failed them and wanted the kids to give them a chance to prove they understood. The Phantom Thieves weren't in it to rip the torch away from the adults, but to smack them upside the head and let them know they were screwing things up. Sae was letting them know she got the message and was ready to act on it, and that they should go back to being kids. Because they ARE still kids.
  • Alternatively, it's her telling them that she's giving them her aid, in a way that only the adults can. Sure, the Phantom Thieves have immense power in the Metaverse, but in the real world, they're just students. She's telling them that she's stepping up to help them fill that gap. And that the other people the Thieves have helped and influenced (Kawakami, Sojiro, Ohya, Yoshida, and the rest) will also step up to help prevent a repeat of the incident.
• What was the point in making the SIU director have a mental shutdown? Was it just the Big Bad being paranoid?
  • Yep. Textbook You Have Outlived Your Usefulness. Everyone who is not Masayoshi Shido is expendable.
  • Shido's getting more and more paranoid as his election nears. He also knows that Akechi is probably going to make his move shortly after that, meaning he must be disposed of soon. Since he knows he can't use Akechi much longer, Shido has him work overtime to eliminate all possible threats and leaks before then, not caring how suspicious it looks anymore since he can just blame it on the remaining Phantom Thieves taking revenge for their leader. His narcissism won't tolerate anything that could tarnish his image after his ascension, so letting someone who knows where all the bodies are buried like the SIU director run around is not an option. That the SIU Director would probably stay loyal if paid enough doesn't matter anymore; Shido will not let even the slight risk of him turning against him come to pass.
  • Also, we can't forget that Shido knows the Phantom Thieves are still alive. Sure, he thinks that he killed their leader and demoralized them, but it is still possible of them to find his lackeys and change their hearts into spilling the beans on his whole operation. Killing off his unnecessary minions would be a priority before he could have the remaining Thieves eliminated in less suspicious means.
• How did the Rival Persona User obtain more than one Persona? By the endgame, we learn that: Fact: Akechi is a Wild Card. Fact: He has two Personas: the high-level Loki, and Robin Hood, which match his lowercase personas (Akechi as Black Mask, and Akechi the Detective Prince). Conjecture: Loki is either his starting or Ultimate Fool Persona, since Robin Hood is Justice (it's not unheard of for Wild Cards to start off as non-Fools, though). Conjecture: Akechi, as a Wild Card with demonstrable access to more than one Arcana, had the ability to create Social Links/Confidants, and his relationships with Shido and Joker might count as such. Conjecture: since even Wild Cards can only awaken to one natural Persona, Akechi must have had some way to create his alternate Persona (and, evidently, he didn't recruit it from a random enemy). Question is, did he also have access to the Velvet Room? If the former, did Yaldabaoth-Igor (Ygor) force the Twins to fuse Personas for him like they did for Joker?
  • Hacking the game's files reveals that Loki is also of the Justice Arcana. It's very likely that, due to Akechi's state of mind and refusal to make bonds, he's a Wild Card user with access to only Personas from a single Arcana, in this case, Justice. Why that isn't the Fool is unknown, however.
    • Fair enough, but still doesn't answer how he can have two Personas when it's extremely unlikely —if not impossible— he negotiated for the other.
    • I thought it was because he had two literal personas. On one side: the kid who wants to be loved and admired. His thief costume uses laser swords and a ray gun. Robin Hood is a classic childhood hero, one who steals from the rich to give to the poor. In other words, his actions can be seen as both a "justice" and a means to be loved (by the public, family, etc.). On the other side: the reckless and unpredictable "apathetic". Loki is seen as a trickster who cares little for others, neither praise nor fear, but merely in getting what he wants. Interestingly, his neutral—well, chaotic neutral at times—interpretation means he could be great at justice, being able to administer just desserts to those who deserve it. However, both of these personas have the same flaw—the inability to connect with people. One wants to be admired, but can't give it in return. One wants to administer whatever is seen as fitting, but can't realize the world is more complicated. In tarot, the main flaw in justice is the inability to process the deeper meanings or accept responsibility for mistakes. This flaw matches Akechi to a T—which is why he's that arcana. For having this flaw and having two ways to confront the world, so is the tarot and the number of personas.
  • Royal implies that Loki is just Robin Hood's second-tier form. And even if that's not 100% true in-universe, Akechi's third awakening certainly treats him like he is. As for the Velvet Room question, the twins don't seem to be aware of Akechi being another "prisoner" or Wild Card, and if they do, they don't mention it. Even when they find out that "Igor" is evil, they say something like, "I knew it was suspicious that we're brutally executing Personas" and not "I knew it was suspicious that there was another prisoner that our master was sending out to kill people and drive them insane." In fact, I don't think it's even stated if Akechi ever visited the Velvet Room. Considering how he boasts that he was "chosen by God" to receive his powers, it's possible that Yaldabaoth never actually approached him as "Igor", but as the Grail or some other form.
• If you fail to complete Shido's palace on time, Akechi comes in your room and arrests you because he found out that you faked your death. This makes sense, except....why the hell does this still happen even if you beat Akechi beforehand (as it is not only impossible, but would render his sacrifice and the positive changes to his character because of it all for naught)??? Granted, you would have to intentionally make that scenario occur since you won't have anything left to do in that palace after he's defeated (except send the calling card, obviously), but it still begs the question.
  • Probably a case of the developers not having enough time to think of an alternative bad ending for that arc. The game had a lot of things they wanted to implement but either didn't have the time to work on or would've made the story even longer, like making Hifumi a team member among other things. The game was originally intended to be released in the winter of 2014, but didn't get released in Japan until September 2016 due to Development Hell. As mentioned, after beating Akechi the calling card is all that's left to deal with for that dungeon, so the writers might've written that ending under the assumption that most players hadn't defeated Akechi yet because if they did, they would do the calling card right after dealing with that.
    • Yeah, it's just a bit of necessary Gameplay and Story Segregation that not many people will even experience anyway unless they actively try for it.
    • I agree with the above. In Shido's Palace, you can send the calling card the day after you defeat Akechi (which is immediately after getting the last letter of introduction and automatically sends you to the entrance to the Treasure Room- I don't think you can leave until you open the way to the Treasure). If you have even one day left before the deadline, you should be able to complete the Palace.
• Maybe I'm just missing something incredibly obvious, but: the grand plan to fake Joker's death hinged on getting Akechi into the Metaverse. Fair enough, makes sense. But that begs the question, how did the Phantoms get him to leave the Metaverse? Surely he would have noticed something was up if he stepped outside and saw the giant casino.
  • As seen here, the game actually goes out of its way to explain this and other apparent inconsistencies involving Joker's "death", but it's an easy-to-miss scene. In this case, it was established all the way back in early April that you can leave a Palace simply by walking back to the entry point. That's how Ryuji and the protagonist left Kamoshida's Palace the first time the moment they got back to that back alley in front of the school/castle.
• Concerning Okumura's death, why did the Phantom Thieves have to target him for the sake of The Conspiracy's plan? As shown with Principal Kobayakawa, they sent him a fake calling card to make him think he was going to have a change of heart from the Phantom Thieves when in reality, they were in the middle of their class field trip to Hawaii. So couldn't they have done the same thing, send Okumura a fake calling card, kill him, and have the Thieves deal with the aftermath? The police already thought the Thieves were responsible for Kobayakawa's death because of a fake calling card, so couldn't they have killed Okumura off the same way. Okumura was the most requested target on their fan site, mostly because they hacked it, but that and a fake calling card could've still made the Thieves seem guilty of his death. It seems like even if the Thieves didn't go after Okumura, he could've been killed off by The Conspiracy and the protagonists still would've dealt with the same downfall.
  • One explanation: it might be that Black Mask can't easily get to his targets if they have a Palace of their own, or would incur undue risk to himself if he tried to go it alone (it's not clear how far his Shadow-controlling power goes, after all). The Principal wasn't wicked enough to have one, nor was the subway conductor, so he would've been able to get into their psyche easily and destroy their Shadow. Meanwhile, Shadow Madarame and Kaneshiro knew about Black Mask but didn't seem to be in danger. So, it's possible the Conspiracy had Akechi tail the Phantom Thieves inside the Palace, letting them clear a path for him until Shadow Okumura was both alone and vulnerable. But on the other hand...
  • Another explanation: the Principal was killed off quickly and without fanfare because he was just as a loose end. He was about to confess to the police, so he had to be dealt with right away. But for Okumura, the Conspiracy explicitly fanned the flames at the Phan-Site, then took its time grooming the Phantom Thieves so they'd send a real calling card. The target thus became so visible and so public that, when Akechi killed him, both the gang AND their fanbase were brutally demoralized, and public opinion was swayed against the Phantom Thieves.
  • They didn't target him as part of the Conspiracy's plan. They targeted him because he was the one the phan-site constantly requested. The two overlapped and that was going to be the ideal way to get rid of them both at one shot. Kill a loose end, have your mole kill him in the metaverse and all of a sudden, the same Phantom Thieves go from well-intentioned vigilantes to murderers. It was a case of hype and the egos getting too big without questioning. Fox and Panther both bring up the negative implications; but Okumura would've fit the ideal target scope (for lack of a better word).
• If you fail to complete the fourth palace, Joker falsely remembers that he's arrested for coercion and blackmail as well as suspicion of being a Phantom Thief, while Sojiro also gets arrested for hiding a criminal. How would this tie into the purpose of going into the palace in the first place, and how would the police get this information since the later part of the games reveal Medjed is fake? Unlike the previous game overs, the police do not mention who filed the charges. (Just to note, the Japanese game over is the same as the English version's, so the whole "Futaba's relatives blame Joker for her suicide" is a bit unlikely.) Possible suspects would be Futaba herself, as she threatens the Phantom Thieves that she'd leak their information if they didn't steal her heart, but maybe Sae could be a possible suspect, since she was heavily investigating Leblanc during that time. Maybe Joker falsely remember that Medjed was the one who leaked their information, even though it wasn't exposed as a fake until after completing the Palace.
  • He's drugged almost to or beyond the point of an overdose, incredibly stressed, and in a lot of pain from the beating he suffered. You also have to take into account the fact that, for even a moment, he thought a good friend of his was dead because of his failure. It's a miracle he can stay even remotely coherent. We also later see that there are some pretty substantial gaps in his memory. In all likelihood, his false memories weren't logical and would fall apart with any real examination, but Joker doesn't have the time for such an examination.
  • The fact that the Medjed threat was staged by the conspiracy isn't revealed until Shido's palace. At that point in the story, Joker is giving his account based on what he knows, so the bad end is a sort of "what if" where he imagines what would happen if he fails to get Futaba to help with the supposed "cleanse" threat.
  • What probably happened (or what Joker thought happened) was that shortly before killing herself, Futaba leaked information connecting Joker to the Phantom Thieves to the police and listed Sojiro as an accomplice so he didn't have to find out what happened to her.
  • Any logical inconsistencies regarding the pre-casino bad endings are easily explained away as "it's just a drug-induced hallucination, it didn't actually happen and therefore doesn't need to make sense."
• The whole idea of trying to persuade Sae to help the Phantom Thieves seems better suited for her sister Makoto rather than Joker. If the idea behind their plan was to get Sae on their side, then it would make more sense to have her sister get arrested on purpose to persuade her rather than the protagonist. Sae hardly knew him before the interrogation, but Makoto wouldn't have had that problem. Why did they decide to use Joker in this plan instead of Makoto?
  • Because that was only half the plan, the other side was faking Joker's death so the conspiracy would leave the rest of the Phantom Thieves alone. They already know Akechi's plan for killing Joker, if Makoto was arrested then Akechi would abort the plan as he has to kill the leader.
    • Aside from that, conflict of interest with Sae would kick in, as Makoto is Sae's sister.
• What happened to the people who suffered mental shutdowns but didn't die?
  • That's actually answered in one of the confidant links. In Ohya's link, her partner's death was faked but eventually turns out to be alive but confined to a mental hospital post-mental-shutdown. Not many details are given, but it's reasonable to conclude that the victims remain alive but aren't themselves anymore and are no longer functional members of society.
  • It's mentioned that people like the train conductor or the Wild Duck Burger employee are still alive and probably conscious, since the conductor is said to be serving jail time currently. It's likely Ohya's partner was a special case, since she was getting too close to Shido, so naturally he had her specifically taken out of the picture.
• If the Phantom Thieves suspected Akechi due to him being able to hear Morgana talk, wouldn't that apply the suspicion to Haru as well? That is assuming she heard Morgana as he was walking down the street.
  • Why? When the Thieves met Haru, they had already entered the Metaverse for the first time. When Morgana met her, she thought he was just a regular cat.
  • It's specifically the contradiction that makes Akechi suspicious. When he meets with the team during October, he gives a story that he gained his Persona just 2 months ago, and makes a big deal of pretending he can just now understand Morgana speaking. However, it's during the trip to the TV station in June he makes the delicious pancakes comment, accidentally revealing that he could understand Morgana long before that.
  • Ryuji briefly suspects Haru of being the Black Mask because she, well, wears a black mask as part of her thief costume. Of course, there's also the fact that she only recently started going into the Metaverse, and couldn't manifest her Persona until the fight with her cognitive fiance.
• When Joker fakes his own death, why does it take the police so long to notice that his body is missing? Akechi should have been the only person who could see the fake body. They say that Joker's death was already written up as a suicide. That explains why there was no autopsy, but what about the people who were sent to clean the interrogation room and move the body to the morgue?.
  • It's stated that Sae Niijima was pulling strings behind the scenes to keep the deception going as long as possible.
• Why aren't all the Phantom Thieves simply arrested in the real world after Akechi finds out their identities while working with them?
  • The stated explanation was not wanting to cause too much of a stir. The plan seemed to be to quickly deal with Joker in custody, hopefully breaking the Phantom Thieves momentum. Then afterwards "deal" with the remaining Thieves later. Shido seemed very concerned about anything affecting his chances in the campaign.
  • Akechi is also partially sympathetic to the thieves and he still has to cut a deal with Joker and Yaldabaoth. That wouldn't be a fair bet, and Yaldabaoth doesn't want to take down Joker as fast as possible, he wants to stall things until he sees an outcome then blatantly rig it.
• At the very beginning of Sae's palace, while deciding on Akechi's code name, Ann asks Haru what's wrong, to which she shakily replies, "Oh, it's nothing". What was the point of that exchange and what was it referring to? It just came out of nowhere and to my knowledge, is never brought up again. If this is evaluated upon later, then I'd like for someone to point it out because I've played through the game twice and never even noticed the line was said in the first place the first time.
  • I think it was most likely a case of "Blind Idiot" Translation. It's possible that this made sense in the Japanese dub, but when converted to English just didn't work. I'm not entirely sure about this, but this is my best guess.
  • Someone theorized in the Funny Moments page that it was Haru realizing she was the only one who put much thought into her code name.
  • It might have been a temporary fleeting worry of, "oh, god, what if our plan doesn't work?" that she quickly steels herself and gets over. That can happen in a high-stress situation like this where everything depends on a set of very specific circumstances. The fact that she is currently right next to the person who killed her father might have triggered it. You'll notice that Futaba has a subtly condescending attitude towards Akechi during the Casino arc, likely for the same reason of "you killed my mom, you bastard, so just wait till you get what's coming to you."
  • During that discussion it was pointed out that everyone's names were English-based. But Noire isn't English, it's French. Between that and the previously mentioned lack of thought for most the thieves' names, Haru likely felt a bit out of place.
• So at the end of the story, Shido has confessed to his crimes but in order to get a conviction, Joker needs to turn himself in to act as a witness. So, does this mean Shido was officially convicted for the crimes he committed in the Metaverse? What else would Joker's testimony give?
  • Yes. Sae specifically tells Joker that his testimony is needed because they have no way to prove the existence of the Metaverse otherwise, since it doesn't leave physical evidence.
  • The probably wouldn't believe Joker's story about the Metaverse. It's more likely that he corroborated Shido's confession. Using details and facts that only he as the leader of the Phantom Thieves would know.
• For Shido's calling card, how did no one from their schools recognize any of the Phantom Thieves to be from their school? I mean, sure, they did have masks, and they were for the most part covered, but you would think Ryuji, Ann, and Joker's hair would be pretty distinctive. Also, let's not forget voices. They were altered slightly, but someone should've recognized it, as well as the way they were speaking. The whole scene should've given away their identity.
  • I doubt every kid in school would be familiar with Joker or his friends. Being outcasts, not many people associate with them as it is. Ryuji had no friends before Joker, who is also seen as a delinquent whom nobody talks to. Ann has the stigma of being "Kamoshida's girl". Yusuke admits that he had few friends at his school, being the pupil of such an esteemed artist. Futaba, of course, doesn't go to school at all and until recently barely went outside. Only Makoto and Haru were actually popular, and even then few students would be willing to believe that the student body president, and such a nice rich girl would be part of a criminal group. Lack of interest in the group aside, even if someone did make the connection, it's possible that they might dismiss the thought as nonsense. Being unable to believe that their boring classmates could be part of a criminal group that successfully took down a crime boss, world famous artists, a mockery of an international hacker group whose one of its members has ties with the real one, and (supposedly) murdered a CEO.
    • Despite having popularity Makoto had the stigma of being "Principal Kobayakawa's stooge" and Haru outright stated she had a hard time trusting if people genuinely liked her or were just using her so intentionally kept people at arms length, so were just as big of outcasts as the others.
  • It can also be the same cognition manipulation done by Yaldabaoth to make sure Shido gets taken down and thrown back into the Prison of Regression.
• How does the rattled status effect work? I thought Morgana said that the thieves' outfits were supposed to protect them from their target's cognition changing them.
  • It protects them from being 'forced' into becoming what the target thinks people are completely. It doesn't protect against merely getting damaged in battle. Alternately? The protection isn't perfect. If it weren't for the outfits and Personas, the party would be at risk of being turned into, say...AT Ms with faces.
  • It's also stated that Shido's cognition is extremely distorted, even by the standards of other palaces, since his palace not only warps the entire city (if not the entire country), but can also fuse shadow selves with his cognition of the real person. Thus, his cognition might be strong enough to override the thief suit's protection. The only other thing in the game that inflicts Rattled is an empowered Mot in Futaba's palace, whose cognition similarly distorts the city into something not nearly like it (a pyramid) and Mot is one of the strongest Personas in the game (similar in level to Mara), so those two factors combined create a similar effect.
• When Morgana escapes into Mementos, Makoto laments that they won't be able to catch up to him since he's a car. Uh... Makoto? Your Persona is a motorcycle.
  • Well that works for her but the rest of the Thieves would still have no way to keep up. Driving through Mementos by herself would also be very dangerous since she'd be completely outnumbered in the event that she was unable to avoid the Shadows.
    • Not to mention there's the possibility that, thanks to player choice, Johanna has become Anat at this point, which Makoto no longer rides on. It's possible that Anat can transform back into Johanna or some other vehicle, but that's never confirmed in-game and, again, that would still leave the others without transportation.
• Why doesn't Ren get bullied in school given his hated status as a criminal? One would expect to be allowed to beat the living daylights out of him or prank him without any repercussion using their word against his. Bonus points if they were part of the volleyball team at the time when no one trusts him at all.
  • The most logical reason is that they're scared of him.
    • Scared of him? They are essentially dogs for Kamoshida. Kamoshida had enough pull to get them expelled, "persuading" the volleyball team who already have a couple of punching bags like Takeishi to go after Ren while he is in the can and giving him a swirlie or a classic beating isn't a difficult task as a way to "break" Ren. He tries telling the principal about this and he was gonna get expelled for "Getting into a fight with the local volleyball team which is clearly your fault"
  • He has a reputation of being so violent he has an assault on his record. They don't know the details of the assault, so they assume it means something REALLY bad since most fights among high schoolers don't require police involvement. There's also rumors that he'll fly off the handle if provoked. On top of that, his quiet nature is probably misinterpreted as being intimidating. Why the hell would anyone want to provoke that? Kamoshida might be able to bail some of them out later, but that won't do much in the moment if the guy they bully reacts by attacking them. No one goes after the kids with a violent reputation unless they're morons who completely lack a survival instinct.
    • Also one of the rumors about him is that he carries a knife with him to school, there's no way anyone who believes the rumors would risk fighting him
    • And after Kamoshida's gone, the rumors die down a bit as Ren really only associates with his close friends, who are also social outcasts at the school, so at that point no one really has any excuse to pick on him. That or they just don't want to associate with the weirdo that brings his cat to school and makes lockpicks in class.
  • The students outright confirm they're terrified of Joker. Getting the students to be wary of Joker and getting them to gang up on him requires two different approaches, and Kamoshida seems to have opted for the former.
  • Remember: the whole reason the Principal and Kamoshida want Joker gone is to protect the school's elite image from being tarnished by including a "criminal". Getting other students to gang up on him and violently assault him only makes things worse for them because multiple students will be making trouble. For their purposes, it's much better to drive him out quietly. Kamoshida had Mishima spread rumors to make the students terrified of Joker enough to shun and badmouth him as much as possible. That way, he would eventually get miserable enough to leave of his own will. If that didn't work, then he'd pull the same trick he did on Ryuji and goad Ren into taking a swing as him so he can expel the kid in "self-defense" (and have the pleasure of beating down one of the only students not bowing to his dominance).
• What even happens when the protag goes back to his hometown with the girl he dates? Is it assumed it's a long-distance relationship? They have group chats, texting and such I guess. There's also Truth in Television since they are teenagers and their interests and things they want to do in life could very well change from graduating high school to entering a college.
  • Several of the romance options, particularly the party member ones, mention that they will wait for the protagonist. They particularly mention the nearest goal being graduating from highschool for both of them, so they generally have only one year (Ann, Makoto, and Haru) or three years (Futaba) to deal with, before they can focus on being together forever.
• Okay, so basically Futaba's treasure was herself. Just think for a minute about the logistics that part involves... Assuming she hadn't entered her own cognitive world and more or less taken the place of her treasure like she did in the game, and that the Phantom Thieves had managed to steal it anyways, what the hell would have happened? Would the Phantom Thieves have ended in the real world with a second Futaba in tow? That would have been really awkward... "Hello Boss, we've been going to a Mental World and have come back with a 100% identical copy of your adopted daughter, how are we supposed to handle that?" Would have they brought back to the real world the dead body of a 100% identical twin of Futaba, possibly mummified, going with the dungeon's pyramid theme? That too would have awkward too, maybe less so as they could have pretended to have discovered the body in a dumpster or something, and hope that no one runs tests and realizes the dead girl is a 100% genetic twin of a single child that is still currently alive...
  • Morgana might have been wrong about Futaba being her own treasure. Treasures are the physical manifestations of distorted desires, Wakaba's death and the forged suicide note were the cause of Futaba's distorted desires, and the Sphinx was conspicuously absent until Futaba was made aware that her treasure might be stolen, so one could reasonably conclude that Futaba's treasure was the Sphinx.
  • Treasures don't always stay the same between the Metaverse and the real world; indeed, they usually turn into something else. E.g., Kamoshida's Treasure is a big-ass crown in the Metaverse but a replica Olympic medal IRL. In all likelihood, Futaba's treasure would've turned into some kind of memento from her childhood or something that, on some level, is symbolically "her".
  • Or alternatively, it was Shadow Futaba. Do have to wonder if Sojiro would have minded a floating, even more mentally unstable daughter with even less fashion sense, or if she would have become something else, like a lunch box full of whatever Futaba was in the mood for.
    • Except that Shadow Futaba had already manifested before Futaba got her calling card; treasures don't.
• Why on Earth would Sae's cognition be that the courtroom is removed and inaccessible when it is literally open to the public? If all the Phantom Thieves have to do to gain access is show up to a trial with zero shenanigans or special arrangements, shouldn't her cognition be that it's open to everyone to begin with?
  • Her cognition is probably that she's an untouchable god in the courtroom setting. Sure, in the real world anybody can walk in, but then what? What can they do against a prosecutor with a record like hers? c.f. the cheater in the Tower Confidant—he believed he was invincible in a video game, leading to invincibility in Mementos.
  • It’s also might be because while the courthouse is open to the public a trial might not be.
• I might be overthinking an obviously rigged trial, but do people charged with crimes have the right to face their accusers in court in Japan? I know that's the way it works in America (the 6th Amendment), so if it works that way in Japan, then Joker would have had his rights violated by not being given the opportunity to cross-examine Shido and would have real grounds for an appeal.
  • I'm not a lawyer and I know even less about Japanese law, but if I'm not mistaken, the Confrontation Clause gives the defendant the right to confront the witnesses against him or her. In other words, the bald guy from the flashback only needed a witness to testify against Joker (not necessarily him, the alleged "victim") and a passive defense to secure the conviction. My guess is that the guy made the woman give false testimony and the prosecution pressured the defense and Joker's parents to make Joker plead guilty in exchange for a lesser sentence (i.e. probation) instead of summoning the "victim" for cross-examination, in which case the prosecution would have aimed for actual prison time.
  • Alas, it was just a farce made by Yaldabaoth to rig Joker put into his rigged game. He needs another contender, and already controlled the entire thing to happen so his plan would be put into place.
• Is there a reason why Joker's mask and Shadow Sae's eyeshadow look similar? A connection, or just an interesting coincidence?
  • Coincidence, pretty sure.
• How are the police capable of arresting the Phantom Thieves on December 23-24 while the Phantom Thieves don't even exist in the general public's cognition? Remember that the Police are the general public. Even if they have data of the Phantom Thief members, wouldn't they just brush off the very possibility that they instigated the Change of Heart cases and not take any action at all?
  • At the time, the Phantom Thieves are afraid that they will be arrested, not necessarily certain of it. The "Days Until Rearrest: Few" timer seems to indicate that they can't waste any time infiltrating Mementos and stealing the public's treasure, not that there's a hard deadline.
  • Let's not forget that the Thieves know Shido's accomplices are now aware of their last escape plan and have lost both Akechi and Shido himself. So the conspiracy sees them as their number one threat and will not give them the chance to pull off another miraculous escape. They know that the entire group will soon be targeted and almost certainly killed in the real world at some point all too soon. They have no chance of tracking down and changing the hearts of enough of the members to make them back off before the conspiracy could have them all hunted down. The pressure was on like never before, so they decided to go for broke and pull their biggest heist immediately because they can't be sure when the inevitable real world attacks will come.
• In the Prison of Regression, Shido implies that Palaces are created by people with a desire for complete control that is so extreme that the Prison of Regression couldn't contain them, and they formed their own subspaces within the Metaverse. Since Futaba didn't consider others as dispensable objects or other targets for oppression and control, what was exactly making her break out from the prison to form a Palace?
  • Futaba likely wanted control of her own mind, as she subconsciously knew the truth about her mother's death, but was plagued by distortions and hallucinations.
• This is probably due to game/narrative reasons, but why doesn't Principal Kobayakawa or the SIU Director have a Palace? And have any of the Phantoms even checked their name on the app?
  • Because they didn't know they was as corrupt as they were.
  • Just because someone is corrupt does not mean they automatically have a Palace. Morgana mentions that most people don't have one, that Palaces only occur when a single person's desire become very distorted. Majority of people with distortions end up in Mementos, as one can tell from the Mementos requests. There's also the fact that, while Kobayakawa and the SIU were jerks and members of the Conspiracy, they were not that big of a part of the Conspiracy.
  • Palaces are also formed by people with a strong, independent will to inflict chaos, causing them to break apart from the Prison of Regression and confined in their very own subspace within the Metaverse. Kobayakawa is just an extension of Shido carrying out the latter's orders, same with the SIU Director. They are lapdogs following orders, not leaders and authorities flaming with ambition.
  • Who said they don't have Palaces? Morgana said that a Palace can form in anyone warped enough. There are far too many for the Thieves to take down one at a time, so they focus on dealing with ones belonging to influential criminals to serve as an example to society as a whole. They aren't just randomly hopping into every Palace around. Royal shows them stumbling onto an unknown Palace and deciding to ignore it afterwards because it wasn't a target at the time and they had no idea whose it was. Unless they have a specific goal, targeting every Palace is a waste of time.
    • As for why they didn't go into the Principal's or the SIU Director's Palaces, assuming they had them, there are three different reasons. For Kobyakawa, he wasn't a threat. He covered for Kamoshida and did order Makoto to spy on the Thieves, but he did nothing dangerous to them himself. He was a disgusting little man, but was overall irrelevant. For the SIU Director, they don't know who he is and would have no idea that he was personally running the schemes to destroy their group. By the time the Thieves would know he was opposing them, the entire department was on them, making dealing with him alone not only pointless, but dangerous to their group. Besides, the main reason the don't just target anyone who opposes them is because they don't want to risk taking a dangerous step and becoming power-abusing authority figures themselves.
• For every character that gains a Persona, why do they never question the voice that shows up in their heads, and seem to know what's going to happen after their... "headache freakout" before their Persona appears? Was it something they just knew subconsciously and didn't have to think about the connections themselves since they were in the Metaverse or someone's Palace at the time? I mean, Makoto Niijima especially didn't question what happened to her and just "rolled with it" so to speak.
  • Very few people in this series question the obtaining of their Personas. They just get it and move on.
  • As seen in previous games in the series, Personas aren't just the local flavor of superpowers. They're very literally inner strength turned into actual strength. That's why a Persona Awakening is almost always associated to an important personal breakthrough of some kind in the User's life. Persona Users recognize their Personas as a part, an aspect of themselves in the same way a person recognizes their own reflection on the mirror.
  • In Strikers new member Zenkichi has no idea what the heck is going on when he awakens. The other Thieves have to explain it to him afterwards.
• Why is it that the police decided to drug the protagonist when they were interrogating him? It ended up knocking him out for a short time, so why did they think it was a good idea?
  • From their point of view, it kinda was. To wit, those men in black were in Shido's conspiracy and didn't really need Joker to confess a thing. For them, his "suicide" was a forgone conclusion and their only concerns were to make him sign the confession to keep him locked and his unavoidable interview with Sae. Getting him as disoriented as possible could only help them by making his testimony to her look even more untrustworthy than the unrealistic truth already is.
  • Sae also specifically mentions that the effects of the "truth serum" should be wearing off shortly after Joker finishes telling his story. So the drugs the police gave him were some kinda truth serum intended to make him spill the beans on everything and reveal the identities of the other phantom thieves. Fortunately, at least in the true ending, it doesn't work. Also, real life so-called truth serums generally work by sedating the individual, making them more suggestible. Such drugs include pentothal, sodium amytal, and substances like ethanol and hyoscine. This would also explain why Joker was so out of it and maybe why he had difficulty remembering certain aspects of his story (assuming the drugs had amnesia as a side effect, similar to roofies.) It would also explain why the truth serum didn't fully work on Joker because even in real life truth serums are more or less a crapshoot. Of course, a simpler explanation could be that the drugs they used were made up ones that don't exist in real life and that have specific side effects.
  • Confessions are the end-all, be-all evidence in Japanese court and this is a country that regularly tortures people into confessing, so anything that makes you more suggestible would be seen as ok by the cops.
• Do the Phantom Thieves really lose their powers at the end?
  • They didn't; But they can forget how to use it over time.
  • Even if they lost access to the Metaverse and can no longer act as the Phantom Thieves, they probably still have their Personas, though they would need Evokers to summon them now.
• What the hell was Shido going to do after offing Akechi? Without him, he'd have no access to the Metaverse. Even if he'd achieved his goals, maintaining power would likely take some effort, and someone who can access the Metaverse would be invaluable towards that end.
  • Shido knew that wasn't an option because he saw Akechi's betrayal coming from the very beginning. That's why he wanted the "Black Mask" to tie loose ends and get rid of everybody involved — including the other Phantom Thieves — before the election despite how suspicious it would look. Shido guessed correctly that Akechi would turn on him the moment he took office, so he planned on getting as much use out of the kid as possible before giving him the You Have Outlived Your Usefulness treatment the old fashioned way.
  • Akechi is a valuable asset, but a dangerous one Shido has no real way to control. He needed the Black Mask to ensure his rise to power, but there's no hint given that he doesn't simply intend to rule and lead the old fashion way. Shido is ridiculously popular with the public and has neutered any meaningful political opposition, so he's extremely well positioned to accomplish what he wants with or without the Metaverse.
  • Additionally, he's just assigned by Yaldabaoth to act as his vassal ruler. He does not need to. Yaldabaoth likely can delete any Shadow he doesn't like at that point and won't need an assassin in the first place.
  • I was thinking this more about his subordinates after his change of heart. At least Shido seemed to have some degree of control over his palace such as merging the five nobles’ shadows with his cognitions of them and his shadow saying the only reason Akechi was able to use his Persona powers effectively was because of him was one of the only things that didn’t sound completely like arrogant nonsense the shadow said. The subordinates though acted like they could still do stuff in the metaverse, even though they lost Akechi the only one with direct access to it and, none of them probably had the level of distorted desires as Shido to have a palace.
• Was Sae's offer to cut a deal with Joker after the interrogation genuine or a Secret Test of Character?
  • It was definitely of the latter. She will definitely not reduce his penalty if he does so, alas remember the entire thing is rigged by none other than Yaldabaoth, who actually taught Joker to circumvent Sae. If he doesn't play in, obviously Joker will be rigged to be disposed of.
    • This doesn't explain why Sae gets angry over Joker's stubborn refusal to compromise despite having lost. If refusing the deal was the correct answer in her eyes, she wouldn't have reacted so negatively, even if her intent was to test Joker and see if he'd stand by his decision. I think that Sae wanted to see the case through to the end even if it wouldn't advance her career, partly because she was starting to be affected by what Makoto said to her Shadow.
  • Remember, her Palace still exists, so her "win at all costs" distorted mindset still rules her. If Joker took the plea deal, even if she can't really pin the charges she claims on him, she could leave and have her promotion secured. The fallout this would have for Makoto is just an issue she can deal with at some later point after that. If he refuses, then all her work is for nothing and she has to accept some of the nagging doubts his crazy story has planted in her mind. It's the shock of him sticking to his guns despite everything and implying that he could still show her the real truth that shakes her enough to have her seriously consider agreeing to help him.
• Aside from the obvious, why did Kaneshiro set a deadline for the Phantom Thieves instead of starting on the extortion right then and there? Makoto was the big prize because she'd let him get to Sae, after all.
  • He did. Makoto mentioned several times that Kaneshiro constantly reminded her of her "debt". For the palace deadline, he always gives his victims a month because he does want the money instead of having to go about it the hard way.
    • But Makoto points out that Kaneshiro knows that his victims can't pay up (even considering his remark about asking their parents, who are getting their summer bonuses, for the money), and the point is that he wants to force them into becoming sex slaves/drug mules.
    • Kaneshiro could intend to take what they've earned as a down payment before forcing them to earn the rest his way. Alternatively, it's easier to break people down and make them desperate over time.
  • Offering the victim a way out is part of the strategy. If they think there us a chance to get off, they'll work harder to scrounge up whatever they can to do so. When they inevitably fail and probably ruin their reputation or finances to get as close to paying the debt as possible, they'll come to him good and desperate. Desperate enough to believe him when he offers another bit of "kindness" or scared enough to accept whatever demands he gives them. After running enough jobs for him, they'll be implicated in enough crimes that they have no choice but to continue as his lackeys. Either way, they're under his thumb now and they won't ever be let go. An adult would likely see through some of this basic psychological warfare, but a scared teenager wouldn't, which is why he targets them.
• Why did Sae need a confession? After all, we know as Joker told the story he mentioned names. Remember, Sae reacted with shock as Makoto joined the thieves so she knows the identity. Why does she need a confession out of Joker?
  • Might not be remembering exacts, but when Makoto comes up in the story (more specifically, when she awakens Johanna), Sae-in-present-day says something along the lines of 'It couldn't be... your newest member was...' which implies Joker isn't giving her the names of each of his comrades. He's just telling her they were involved in their respective story missions ie: "I met Madarame's pupil, Yusuke, and we decided to target Madarame." Without saying that Yusuke became part of the 'we'. Sae is an investigator and intelligent, so when Joker explained Makoto's involvement in the Kaneshiro case and went on to say the Phantom Thieves got a new member, she would've been able to reason out that the 'new member' was Makoto herself. When you catch up to 'present day', she asks Joker to confirm the members of the Thieves and lists them all by name. She wouldn't have to do that if he'd already explicitly told her who had awakened to Personas and joined him.
  • After this, Sae frustratedly admits that the charges against Joker are already too weak to really stick even with him in custody. No tangible evidence of their acts exists and Shido would never allow the existence of the Metaverse to get out to provide any. As long as he avoided naming accomplices, especially the more distant ones, the cops couldn't touch anyone. Sure, Shido's lackeys know exactly who they are and Sae could piece it together, but without probable cause, there isn't anything they could legally do. The whole reason the cops had to beat and drug Joker into signing his "confession" was to justify holding him. Since the entire point of their farcical investigation is to provide legal cover for Shido's goons to eliminate the Phantom Thieves, it makes all the difference.
• Why didn't the Phantom thieves play the recording of Akechi planning to kill Joker during Shido's calling card? I would have made them calling out Shido as the culprit for the mental shutdowns a lot harder to dismiss as "slander". Sure, Yaldabaoth's influence probably would have made it pointless eventually but it's weird no one even suggested it. It worked for Sae.
  • The recording only made Akechi look evil, not Shido. While Akechi is definitely up to no good during that time, their point is to frame Shido for the mental shutdowns, not Akechi which he manipulated to do that for him.
• If you don't go to Valentines with any of the girls or cheat, any of the girls you had entered a romantic route with will beat you up to the point that you can't get up. While it makes sense when it comes to 10 girls or some of the physically stronger ones such as Makoto, Haru or Sumire, how in the hell does Futaba manage to do it on her own? She's nowhere near as physically strong as Joker, lest be taking him one-on-one.
  • It's a trope in comedy that a man submits to or is afraid of a woman's wrath when he knows he's in the moral wrong. The alternative to allowing himself to get beaten up would be for him to get into a fistfight with a girlfriend after cheating on her, which is dark as all get out and not at all in the spirit of the scene.
• How come Kamoshida and Madarame's palaces don't have their own themes when subsequent ones have one to match what they are? You think Kamoshida's would have something medieval-sounding to play within, but what you do hear there mostly focuses on the Phantom Thieves' mission.
  • Madarame's Palace BGM does sound like something from an art museum however.
• Why did Okumura need to marry Haru off to go into politics if he was already absurdly wealthy? Look at Donald Trump - he didn't wed Ivanka to a Senator's kid before jumping into politics.
  • This is Japan, not the US. It's perfectly natural for politicians and corporations to do that there.
  • Even if Okumura could get into politics without the marriage (which, to be honest, he probably could), the existence of his palace shows that his aspirations for political power reached to obsessive levels. So it would make sense that he would take as many actions as possible to help him achieve that goal, including marrying off his daughter to a Jerkass who cares nothing about her.
  • Perhaps her fiance's family was offering something other than money, such as social or political influence, with Haru as the price. Having the right connections is just as important in politics as having enough money.
    • Obviously, since the story literally explains that he is trying to compete with Shido for presidency. Sugimura was probably the son of some influential politician that can allow Okumura to compete with Shido easily.
    • When exactly does the game say this? The TV Station executive points out that Okumura attracted too much negative attention to himself and it put the conspiracy at risk.
• Why doesn't Kamoshida bother harassing Kasumi? Her innocence around the whole Shujin situation and her appearance should make her a literal red target for Kamoshida's abuse.
  • Probably she had a scholarship and Kamoshida doesn't want to ruin the school's reputation for harassing her?
    • It wouldn't matter for him anyway, plus Sumire still has a will on her own inside this Kasumi and thus can make her depressed and submissive in terms of these things, wouldn't that make her a perfect harassment target?
    • Kasumi is said to have transferred to Shujin very close to the time the MC did. Maybe Kamoshida hasn't had a chance to approach her or see her as a target because he's focused on Ann and the Volleyball team at the time. It also becomes Fridge Horror when you consider she easily could have become a target later on when she starts underperforming if he had stayed in the school.
  • Maybe Kamoshida doesn't actually bother with anyone out of the volleyball team and the volleyball team is just volunteer or mandatory for second years? He also doesn't actually bother Makoto or Haru, neither of which are inside the volleyball team. (Although Makoto is the student council president so she might be immune) Adding up to the fact that Shadow Kamoshida did say "They all came for me," this implies that the volleyball team is in fact voluntary but it is the only sports club available due to Kamoshida sabotaging all of the others.
  • To top it all off, Sumire herself isn't as bad as she thinks she is; She's still capable of getting somewhere in the top 10, implying that she does get screentime on TV. This would make unnecessary hassles around Shujin Academy that would most definitely expose Kobayakawa or Kamoshida and speed up their demise.
  • Do not forget that the Yoshizawa twins' father is influential and not just some nobody; He hosts a rather famous talk show. This might be the reason why Kamoshida also never bothers with Haru or Makoto because they have respectively connections with massive enterprises and the police force, which again will make them more susceptible to removal because it betrays all facades of secrecy. It's only people who are nobodies such as Shiho or Mishima who get ruined and not the big names for good reasons.
  • It might be that he just plain wasn't interested in her, or it could be that even Kamoshida wasn't going to sexually pursue a girl driven insane with trauma over the recent loss of her sister^note Okay, the guy's enough of a scumbag that I don't think he'd actually care about that, but still, the possibility is there. Not to mention that at this point his main goal was focusing on getting Ann to sleep with him, and he only assaulted Shiho out of frustration when she wouldn't do it.
  • Kamoshida is a predator, but he isn't a fool. He doesn't just assault every girl he sees immediately because it would blow his cover. As he shows with harassing Ann, he wants to groom them for a time before soliciting them that so they're less likely to speak out. We saw him taking interest in Yoshizawa early on, "warning" her to stay away from Joker, the "dangerous delinquent." That was probably the early stages of him trying to get her trust before ramping his harassment up. It was less than a month between her starting school and the Thieves changing his heart, so they likely interrupted him before he could go far enough to feel safe making her another target.
  • Alternatively, maybe Principal Kobayakawa told Kamoshida to stay away from Sumire out of Pragmatic Villainy? After all, Sumire's supposed to be a big shot honor student with a privileged status whose privileges only last as long as she earns them, right? Back then, everyone saw her as an exceptional athlete who would go on to bring glory to Shujin (and by extension, to Kobayakawa by proxy) and improve the school’s reputation through her accomplishments. And remember: the school only started questioning her abilities after the Kamoshida confession. Kobayakawa might have thought at the time that Sumire would be more useful to him and the school if she was healthy and in good condition than if she ended up broken and abused by Kamoshida, and that they would gain more by giving her special treatment than by treating her like Shiho or Mishima. After all, you don’t want to hurt the goose that lays the golden eggs, so to speak. At least as long as she stays useful to you.
• How did Yoshizawa end up in the Casino Palace to help Joker out? Did she really end up following everyone into the Palace without being noticed at all?
  • Pretty much. Futaba asks Yoshizawa exactly that when she visits Leblanc on 11/25. She says she followed Joker the entire time after school on 11/19, the day the Phantom Thieves went to fight Shadow Sae, because Joker refusing her offer to train that day struck her as odd. As for how Yoshizawa manages to tail the Phantom Thieves getting caught, it turns out she's just that much better at shadowing people than Makoto ever was, which is something Morgana couldn't help but comment on when he learns about it.
• Why doesn't Sumire talk to Kasumi about how she felt inferior to her and just ran away without even looking if there is a car nearby?
  • It's a natural, instinctive fear for people to fail their beloved ones. It's hard to imagine but if you felt that you failed a person who genuinely care for you, you shut down in front of them and hide everything to yourself just to avoid that person from getting mad at you. It's the same thing for Hikari and her Father from Persona Q2.
• Why doesn't Maruki revive Kasumi during the dream world incident to let the Yoshizawa twins reconcile and outright overwrites Sumire with Kasumi's properties instead?
  • He just went along with what Sumire told her. It's not a fault on his part, but on Sumire's. She told him to turn her into Kasumi, because for her, if she isn't Kasumi, she might as well as just die.
• Why in the hell Shido leaves Maruki alone after stealing his research? Other people like Wakaba, Okumura or you (If you sell out your friends to Sae) aren't that well if they know too much or opposed him.
  • Adding to the point is that Kobayakawa, one of Shido's lackeys, actually hired him and let him do everything he wanted at his school.
  • Most likely because Maruki already had his Persona at that point, meaning he wouldn't have a shadow to target and wasn't a big enough threat to justify riskier assassination methods. Although Shido would have put the pieces together and kept a close eye on him, with him being the councilor at Shujin (where Kobayakawa and other Conspiracy members could monitor him) being one such way.
    • You'd think this would move him to the top of Shido's hit list, though, as it'd be proof that someone Shido didn't control had the same power as the conspiracy. My best explanation is that Shido is so paranoid that he doesn't trust any methods of IRL murder — anything more traceable than the Metaverse is too much of a risk for him. It's the same reason he doesn't just look up the name of that kid he framed for assault and have him strangled in an alleyway. However, this still leaves the question of how he was planning to deal with Akechi.
    • He actually doesn't have the same power as Yaldabaoth, not the conspiracy in general. The Conspiracy is a bunch of ragtag idiots like Shido who are so incompetent that they can't check for a corpse, lest be controlling the Metaverse. Given he does kill Joker through Akechi in the bad ending and cover it up and planned to execute all of his confidants if he got killed, either, he should not have problem with IRL murder. As for "the same reason as Joker", he doesn't care about consequences. It's less like he's paranoid than he can do something horrible and forget it happened on the next day.
  • Maruki was a college researcher at the time (possibly even a college student, as he gives his professor a copy of his paper on the Day of Reckoning). Combine that with Shido's short-sightedness, and it's possible he thought cutting off funding would push Maruki into a different field of study.
  • Looking over all these responses, Occam's Razor suggests that Shido never learned Maruki's name and thought the research was all Wakaba's. There were probably a lot of people working on the Cognitive Psience project, and he couldn't kill all of them. Maruki was just some postgrad Shido thought he could write off.
• There's something VERY unclear about Maruki's Palace, and it's not just one thing about it.
  • First, the most glaring thing is during October 3, Joker enters it in Phantom Clothing, indicating that the Palace Owner has declared him as hostile, which Maruki is not supposed to in that instance. Even if his Shadow was running the area instead of his person, it should not happen, at least until Joker goes in to save Yoshizawa.
    • Probably since it's directly connected to Mementos, the same things that made Mementos hostile are turning him into Phantom Clothing? Or someone else was already stationed within it way before Maruki had any involvement in this case?
    • The thief costumes appear in Madarame, Kaneshiro, and Shido's Palaces before the ruling Shadows are made aware of their presence, so it may have just been a thing in Futaba's Palace since she wasn't opposed to the Thieves, but the Sphinx was and that resulted in the costume change.
    • Perhaps it's less "hostility" and more "they are seen as a threat", which, while related, are not the same thing. If you have a big secret (like, say, plagiarism), anyone probing into your mind is a threat because they could bring it to light; for others like Sae, everyone was a potential threat because they might stand in her way. Maruki isn't hostile to Joker, but he may at that point already know enough about Cognitive Psience to have figured out that the Phantom Thieves could pose a threat to his goals. He'd prefer to just convince them without violence because he wants to help them, but they're still a threat. As for Futaba, sure she wanted the Phantom Thieves to help her, but any big change like that is scary, hence also a "threat" even if it's something you want to happen.
    • Maruki isn't hostile, but he is still operating under the distortion that everyone must follow his ideals to produce the "perfect" world. His Shadows aren't outwardly aggressive, but they do enforce his demand for everyone to follow his "therapy" delusions. That is well-meaning, but it still amounts to being a desire to impose unwanted control on others, being a sort of soft despotism. It doesn't need a specific target to continue, everyone is meant to conform. His Palace tries to extend this control on intruders, which is enough to make the Thieves subconsciously rebel and produce activate their costumes to protect themselves from being forced to follow the distortion.
    • I have to point out we don’t know when Maruki became aware of his palace or when he truly decided to fully put his plan into motion, I believe somewhere on this site it was mentioned by Word of God that Maruki felt the Phantom Thieves were actually coping healthily, and it was only after the Day of Reckoning that he jumped off the deep end and decided to erase their traumas too.
  • Secondly, Persona users cannot have Palaces, but how can he actually take control of it not as his Shadow, but in his Physical person?
    • His persona is probably artificially implanted by another party, most likely the aforementioned theory of the laboratory's former residents sympathizing with his and Rumi's plight. Personas can be artificially awakened, or even artificially imparted into a person, and it's not the first time that this happened. Furthermore, it can be a god (Or false god as in the form of an omnipotent A.I.) taking the form of a Persona, much like Kandori-Nyarlathotep.
  • Adding to the point is that simply saying the surname of the Palace ruler, if that really is Maruki, does not trigger an input in the Metanav, which Yoshizawa really did. This leaves the trigger to be "Research laboratory." Furthermore, when Akechi, Joker and Yoshizawa actually go into the Palace to investigate, the owner name is blacked out. Is there more than it meets the eye?
    • Again, could it be possible that it's originally not Maruki's Laboratory/Palace, but it's already stationed by someone else long before he was involved?
    • Is it possible that that specific Palace, before Maruki took over, was meant to be used by someone else as an observing post? It's connected to Mementos, and there are camera lenses both in and out of the Palace, so perhaps that would imply that its original intent was to observe, or to look closely at the hearts of the masses, and reflect its original owner's findings through Mementos? Perhaps the only reason Maruki was able to claim it as his own was its original owners somehow knew him so well that they entrusted him the laboratory. And it would also explain why a surname wasn't needed to get in - the Phantom Thieves didn't need a surname to get into Mementos.
  • I just noticed another odd point. Since killing a Persona = killing a Shadow, how does Maruki not die from a Mental Shutdown right away, assuming if Adam Kadmon was really his Shadow, which his Metaverse outfit and his Mask is supposedly a part of?
    • Again, the persona might not even be his Shadow to begin with. Someone probably bestowed it to him for whatever reason, probably because of ties with whoever originally owned the laboratory (Assuming if there's even one)?
    • Maruki stops the Monacopter from leaving his palace with a tentacle and before the fistfight scene Maruki loses his metaverse outfit and states "Seems like neither of us can summon our personas anymore." This implies that Adam Kadmon was destroyed, but some part of Azathoth survived.
    • It's implied that Azathoth/Adam Kadmon weren't actually Maruki's real Persona, but something else that Yaldabaoth had something to do with. It did awaken on the Day of Reckoning after all.
    • The Arena game show that a Persona can "break" if subjected to too much punishment. This prevents it from being summoned again for a time, but causes no significant harm to the owner because the Persona isn't truly destroyed, just temporarily dispelled.
• Where did Yoshizawa get her Metaverse Navigator from? Joker and company during one of their earlier infiltrations? Or Akechi given her father runs the show he appears on?
  • It's most likely triggered the same way as Ann. The MetaNav can spread to nearby people as soon as the target wishes for it.
  • I think Igor/Yaldabaoth just grants the Nav to anyone they want to be able to use it at a chosen point.
  • Her Navigator seems to always have the white color scheme and multi-colored transition effect that normally only appears in the third semester. Given that is also censored the name of the Palace's ruler, it's likely another of Maruki's "gifts". Like her thief costume and the false Cendrillon, it's part of the "I wish I could be like Senpai/my sister" desire he granted with his growing powers and Yaldy had nothing to do with it since she was irrelevant to his game.
• In Royal, you can play darts with Morgana. Why does nobody seem to care that a cat can somehow play darts proficiently?
  • They don't care that he brings a cat to school and hides it in his desk, either. It could have something to do with the whole "ignorant masses" theme the game has going for it.
  • It's possible they don't question him bringing Morgana to school because they're afraid of him (violent delinquent and all), but sometimes I think Morgana naturally has a bit of a personal Perception Filter. The Thieves see him acting uncatlike, but nobody else does unless they're trying to notice him, the same way they can't hear him talking.
• Why doesn't Sumire say goodbye to Joker on the last day of the game? Or Maruki for that matter? They both show up in the final cutscene, but neither of them have parting words for Joker unlike everyone else.
  • Sumire was subtly warning Joker that he's being tailed. There's no chance for them to talk. Also Maruki did say proper parting words in the Taxi, and Sumire had parting words with the protagonist in an SNS conversation before White Day.
  • If you mean "why don't we get to say goodbye to them in gameplay", then Maruki was because they didn't know he was still alive, and Sumire because she was away at gymnastics camp and I guess they couldn't think of a way to convincingly have her back on the game map by the time of the ending, so they just had her come back in the cutscene. It's similar to how you can't say goodbye to Akechi and get a gift from him even if you completed his Confidant, because he's dead at that point.
• How did Sumire get away with impersonating her sister to begin with? The twins have a noticeable Identical Twin ID Tag in their hair color and the real Kasumi's mole, plus Kasumi definitely would've been reported dead on the news. Then after Sumire's cognitive overlay broke, she isn't punished or kicked out of Shujin once they get back to the real world even though impersonating a dead athlete and competing under their name is a serious crime. Sure she had her scholarship revoked, but what about after she fessed you and was actually Sumire again? Even if she improved to the real Kasumi's level at the end of her confidant shouldn't she have been expelled or something?
  • About the first part, the students didn't want to talk about it because Kasumi died last month. They simply pretended to ignore it out of respect. As for the Scholarship, it's probably a sleazy oversight by Kobayakawa when he's still in the school. The school probably intended to give Kasumi the scholarship before the twins enrolled, but she died and the school didn't even bother checking before they let "Kasumi" (Sumire) in, causing Sumire to get the scholarship because she was using Kasumi's name. In other words, they didn't kick Sumire out because there was an oversight in the School itself and not on Sumire's part.
  • Sumire isn't actually impersonating Kasumi. Maruki changed her cognition so she would believe she was Kasumi, and part of that was hearing "Kasumi" when people called her by her real name. Joker just happened to find the real Kasumi's book (complete with the real Kasumi's portrait if one looks very closely) that Sumire was keeping and using as her own, and since he never knew Sumire to begin with, he simply went along and called her "Kasumi". Not only it didn't interfere with her cognition change, but it triggered Joker's alert to the new distortions as well (as shown when he meets Sumire's father on New Year's Day).
    • There's a bit of a wrinkle to that logic when the sisters' gymnastics coach explicitly says Sumire was acting like and calling herself Kasumi before, so other people knew, but I guess just didn't say anything to be polite. As for why the other thieves didn't suspect anything, they knew nothing about the Yoshizawa sisters, and so didn't see anything odd about Joker calling her "Kasumi". And while there is the possibility of "Kasumi Yoshizawa" being declared dead on the news, Sojiro mentions the accident at the beginning of the game but doesn't say the name of the dead girl, so that part might not actually be common knowledge.
• Maruki wants to make everyone happy and free of their pain but what happens if someone's true happiness ends up clashes with someone's else's true happiness? Does he pick one to grant their happiness and just give the other one the second best or something? Also what happens if someone true happiness involves someone dying or something extremely petty? Does he grant them also?
  • See what happens with the Phantom Thieves. Probably it's based on something that he sympathizes. Furthermore, since Joker was his greatest ally, he will prioritize him first, no matter how immoral his desires could be (As seen in the cut Valentines and White Day events, all of his ten lovers willingly throw themselves into Joker's cheating courtesy of Maruki's dream world activating.)
  • That's just another reason for why Maruki's reasoning, while well-intentioned, is ultimately self-destructive and wrong, and why the Thieves need to stop him.
  • It’s made clear when talking to the other Phantom Thieves that Maruki’s reality isn’t stable yet. He just papered over the biggest issues for the Phantom Thieves first without smoothing out any inconsistencies in their memories. This is made clear when Joker goes to talk to them and subtly points out that things don’t make sense, especially in Morgana, Ryuji, and Yusuke’s cases. Once they started thinking about it, that’s all it took for the cognitive overlays on them to shatter.
• Admittedly, I might've missed something, but is it ever even hinted at what became of Rumi after Maruki's reality is undone? Is she still living with Maruki's spell somehow? Did she start living her life as though Maruki's spell never happened?
  • I don't think it's ever made clear in game. I just assume that after his defeat, every actualization Maruki ever made disappeared, regardless of if it was made in the dream world or not. Lavenza does say that everything will just revert to the way it would have been had the actualizations never happened, so Rumi by this point would either have gotten over the trauma on her own (and possibly, like Sojiro, have some faint recollection of her wish-life that gets dismissed quickly as deja vu), or else sadly have gone back to her trauma-induced coma state.
• Why does everyone insist Sumire is a transfer student? She's no more a transfer student than any other first-year in a Japanese high school. She just happens to have a scholarship, there's a difference.
  • I think it's just a technicality. Being a transferee just means that she didn't go through the regular admission process (application period, entry exams, etc.) and instead was accepted into the student body by other means. In this case, it seems both Yoshizawa sisters had already applied and were accepted by another high school, but the car accident in March obviously changed plans. Shujin Academy saw this as an opportunity to recruit an athlete into the roster and likely sweetened the deal with the scholarship to get it done. Also, if I'm not mistaken the in-game calendar says the first day of school was April 6 (Wednesday), and it seems both Yoshizawa and Joker start attending on Monday, April 11. Even if it's just a few days, it was probably more than enough to get her referred as the transfer student so people that didn't know her name could gossip about her.
  • Were they originally going to another high school? The vice principal says that they took in "those sisters" and talked about how "they" lost one. It sounds more like the Yoshizawa's were already set to attend Shujin Academy well before the accident.
  • Sumire's referred to as an "honor" student, a student with a privileged status whose privileges only last as long as they earn them.
• Why does Joker almost never use honorifics on his Confidants in dialogue choices, with only a few exceptions(e.g. you can choose between calling Hifumi "Togo-san" or "Hifumi-chan" when you first meet her)? For example, he refers to his homeroom teacher as "Kawakami" in dialogue choices regarding her, even though she insists on being called "Ms. Kawakami" during the Ichigaya hangout with Ryuji.
  • I think it's because over the course of the Confidants he grows closer to the person, enough to drop the honorifics like the PTs do with each other. That said, I don't actually know that much about how Japanese honorifics work, so take that with a grain of salt.
• This is something I just now realized years later, but during each party member's awakening fight, they already have their gun. Do the guns manifest from their rebellious will like the melee weapons? Because Joker had to be given his gun first before he could use it. I suppose you could make the argument that Haru already acquired her grenade launcher before her full awakening because she had been working with Mona beforehand, but the others don't have that excuse. Is this just Gameplay and Story Segregation?
  • From what I've seen on their weapons descriptions, it seems that the starter weapons are... just born from their rebellious heart. As for why Ren needed to get his gun separately, you got me there.
    • Maybe it's a cognition thing: once Ren had his gun, all the others, upon becoming their ideal version of a rebellious thief thought to themselves, "okay, so as a Phantom Thief, I'll need a gun like Joker does. Oh, look, here's one that came from my brain!"
• How exactly did Akechi kill Wakaba? The obvious implication for how he did it is that he tracked down her Shadow in Mementos and either killed it or used Loki's power to make it shut down, but from what we know about Wakaba, she was a genuinely good person without any real major hangups. Would she have even had a Shadow to do anything to?
  • It doesn't take much for a person to develop a Shadow, as Mishima gains one from his misplaced desire for fame and attention, and one Mementos target gains one through thinking he's invincible at video games. Wakaba's single-mindedness and putting Futaba's needs for attention on the backburner could have made her develop a Shadow.
• On the Confidants menu list, certain characters are listed under the descriptors they have on the map screen before you start their route^note i.e. Tae is just "Back-Alley Doctor", Chihaya is just "Cheerful Fortune Teller", etc., instead of their names. Why is that?
  • At those points in the story, since the Confidant hasn't been established, the protagonist doesn't know their name, and only knows them by those descriptors. It would be a bit of an Interface Spoiler if you could see their name before they formally introduce themselves.
    • Not quite what I meant. I understand why they're listed like that on the map before you get to know them, my question was about the Confidants list accessed via the pause menu, where those descriptors show up on the list instead of their names, even though you've already started the Confidant for them to be listed there, and potentially even completed it. It's only for certain characters as well, like Tae and Chihaya as I mentioned above, but others like Iwai and Kawakami flat-out have their names on that menu the whole time. "Igor" being referred to as "Prison Master" insteps of his name on that menu makes sense as subtle foreshadowing for The Reveal, but it's not like Tae Takemi isn't who she says she is. Hell, on that note, Kasumi/Sumire's name on that list changes after her big plot twist, so it's odd that the ones you already know the names of don't as well.
  • I think this is just a case of Gameplay and Story Segregation. This also happens in Persona 3 Reload; Chihiro is called "Treasurer", Yuko is called "Track Club Manager", etc. Probably easier to remind players who is the character, particularly in the case of more unpopular social links, with a descriptor instead of the character name.
• Regarding Yaldabaoth's takeover of the Velvet Room... what happened to Elizabeth, Theo, and Margaret?
  • They simply left and/or were unaware of their master. In fact, there might even be multiple Igors and Velvet Rooms, each accommodating to a certain guest.
  • The other Velvet Room hosts aren't familiar with either the phantom Thieves or Justine and Caroline in Q2. It's possible that they're deployed elsewhere or otherwise disengaged when not actively helping an inhabitant of the Velvet Room.
  • Elizabeth is probably off doing her own thing anyway.
• The school cares more about publicity than it does its students, as shown with how the school reacted to Kamoshida before and after he got exposed. With that in mind, why the hell did no one do anything about Sumire posing as her dead sister? She's a giant PR mine waiting to explode and take the whole school with her. Considering the school is recovering from the Kamoshida scandal, the faculty can't afford a second scandal to further ruin Shujin's reputation. If the faculty wanted to preserve the school's reputation, shouldn't they have done something about the Sumire situation right away?
  • It becomes a bit easier to wave off if one believes Sumire is deep in grief, and pretending to be Kasumi as a sort of coping mechanism. The students gossiping around her and her father both seem to treat her this way. Add in the fact that Maruki's there, both to continue counseling her and to explain her erratic behavior to the school staff, and the school has a plausible excuse should someone raise the question.
• In the original, why isn't Joker wearing his glasses during the ending?
  • He simply didn't need them, as he was moving back home where people know he doesn't wear glasses. Strikers and Royal's ending were created after Joker's glasses became one of his iconic accessories, so they were likely left in to make him more recognizable.
  • By the time of Strikers, he's still wearing his glasses, but they're not opaque anymore. It could be that he didn't want to forget what he went through in Tokyo as a way to move forward, but this time he doesn't have to hide himself from the world; he can be seen no problem now.
• So, regarding Dr. Maruki's altered reality and his Actualized Akechi... If we're subscribing to the theory that the real Akechi survived the incident where he supposedly died, what happened to him when the actualization was starting? Is it like with the Phantoms under his effects and human!Morgana, in that the old him ceased to exist until after Maruki was defeated after which he returns to wherever he was, or what?
  • The game is as vague on that as Akechi's actual fate. It's likely that he was partially altered similarly to the Confidants or the homeless man in Shibuya, as they notice the odd happenings in Maruki's reality as well.
  • If the real Akechi survived, the first thing he would do after leaving Shido's Palace would be to leave Tokyo. He now knows that he is no match for Shido, and for all he knows Shido might be aware that he survived, so his immediate goal would be to get as far away from Shido as possible. Indeed, the next time we see him in Royal (if it's really him) is outside of Tokyo.
• How is it Shido is unable to identify Joker as the juvenile he framed less than a year ago, but recognize Akechi as being the son of a woman he had sex with over 15 years ago due to their Uncanny Family Resemblance. While he may have been drunk at the time of the assault, wouldn't he have had to at least seen Joker's face once again during the cover-up process. Or was this another bureaucratic indiscretion like in interrogation where they just pushed the paperwork through as quickly as possible without double checking things first?
  • Keep in mind Shido was drunk and it was dark out. It's logical that Shido, being an arrogant man who operates under a But for Me, It Was Tuesday mindset, would just forget who Joker is because in his mind it was just some random punk kid getting in his way. For Joker it was a life changing moment, but not for Shido. Most likely Shido made the accusations and then just fucked off because it wasn't worth his time.
  • For Akechi it's quite likely he was aware that he existed and knew that he was a landmine capable of ruining his political career that he needed to watch out for
• When exactly do Makoto, Haru and the other third-years take entrance exams? Near the end of Persona 3, it's mentioned that Mitsuru and Akihiko took entrance exams in January despite the fact that Nyx is coming at the end of the month, but Persona 5 doesn't even mention Makoto or Haru's entrance exams during the third term despite their planning on going to college.
• Why do Yoshizawa's Thief clothes look so much like Joker's? Sure, she has an almost obsessive respect/affection for him, but she had only seen him in that outfit for maybe a few minutes before she got hers. With all the craziness happening at the time, was that enough for her to internalize that as her definition of "rebellion?"
  • Rather than being born wholly from her rebellious heart, her wish and thus her costume was actualised by Maruki — "I want to be like Senpai." Her Awakening is odd in several ways for that reason.
• Did Sumire trick herself into not needing glasses when she thought she was Kasumi? Or does she only need them for certain things? Before the third semester, Sumire mentions her body not responding the way she wants it to during her routines (a hint that she's not really Kasumi, I suppose), but how was her ability constant but not her eyesight? And then later on, Sumire puts her glasses away even when living as herself.
  • Maybe Kasumi just used contact lenses? Even if not, it's not impossible for eyesight to get worse over time, so Sumire might have made herself believe that "her"/Kasumi's eyesight has been growing worse and only now is bad enough to be really noticeable, and decided to use contact lenses. And when she's back to living as herself, when she puts her hair up again, she probably also switched back to contact lenses.
  • If you ask Sumire about her eyesight when shopping for glasses during her Rank 4 event, she says she wears contacts. Whether or not the original Kasumi needed corrected vision is never mentioned, but if she didn't, Sumire appears to have rationalized the discrepancy away. Much like her struggles with gymnastics, cooking, and academics, it shows how her original personality keeps bleeding through Maruki's imperfect early actualization.
• Why does an extremely prestigious and uptight school, allow Ryuji to wear a shirt that says "No Mo' Rules" as part of its official school uniform?
  • For one thing, it's in English, so it has about the same cultural freight as a US kid wearing a shirt with Viva la revolucion! printed on it — i.e. none. For another, Ryuji's already a lost cause to them. He dyes his hair and he's got a reputation as a violent thug one wrong move away from expulsion. They could police his uniform, but it's not worth the effort.
  • Ryuji openly says that he can't understand or read English, so he probably has no idea what it really says, but thinks it looks cool. It's far from an uncommon thing for teenagers in Japan to do.
  • I think the main question is why Ryuji gets to wear that shirt instead of the white polo shirt that's part of Shujin's summer uniform, but virtually everyone else gets away with wearing a Non-Uniform Uniform without getting into trouble.
• How did no one throughout the course of the story noticed the supposedly lost Sayuri in the middle of some local cafe? In real life, at least one person would notice if the bagel shop they went to suddenly had a painting of The Concert by Vermeer hanging up. While it could be considered a recreation, it would be considered a very good recreation, especially for a lost paining.
  • Would they? I had no idea The Concert existed until I saw the name here, and I had no idea what it looked like. It's also different enough from the way Sayuri is "known" to look that it could pass under the radar.
  • 1) Leblanc isn't exactly known for being a cultural hot spot. Of the few regular customers we see, exactly one is known to have an eye for fine arts, and that's the guy who donated the painting to begin with. 2) Even if they did recognize it as the Saiyuri, remember that the public has only ever seen the version Madarame altered. To anyone looking at the "original" version hanging it Leblanc, it just looks like a strangely high quality replica that replaced the clouds with a baby for some reason. Like classier version of a greasy spoon diner with a framed Mona Lisa holding a dog or a football: something that looks nice, but is "clearly" fake and not worthy of further attention. Even if they put two and two together about Yusuke being Madarame's former pupil also hanging around it, he could easily pass it off as his own work imitating his old teacher's crowning achievement with a twist as practice and move on.
• Joker finds a notebook on the ground with Kasumi's name written, and this leads him to believe that Sumire is named Kasumi. Did Sumire actually write Kasumi as her name to convince herself it's who she is? Or is this the real, dead Kasumi's notebook? Why would Sumire bring that to a park cleanup?
  • Yes, she did write that name. By that point, she had already been convinced that she was Kasumi Yoshizawa. As to why she brought it, it was a school trip. She probably kept it either to keep details down or to do some homework later. I do consider it unnecessary detail when brought up as a plot point since she would just introduce herself a minute afterwards anyway, but that's neither here nor there.
• Maruki has the power to rewrite reality at his fingertips, including the ability to undo death itself. He clearly displays this when he brings back Wakaba Isshiki and Kunikazu Okumura as part of Futaba and Haru's desires. The question is - why didn't he do the same for the real Kasumi?
  • Nobody asked for it. Sumire asked to become Kasumi, not bring Kasumi back to life. Also the ability was done subconsciously, meaning that the in Maruki's mindset, the first thing he wanted to do is to make Sumire think she was Kasumi to prevent her from becoming like Rumi.
  • It was a deliberate choice of the writers to show Maruki's greatest flaws: his inability to process that someone can move on from painful circumstances. His usual "solution" to fixing problems is to address the most obvious source of grief and brainwash the target into not thinking about it too deeply. Sumire's greatest source of pain was her inferiority complex towards her sister, so he gave her the chance to become her. He meant it all in the best intentions, but he failed to consider how it would effect her and those around her in the long run. She was the most obvious example of Maruki's flawed methods, but far from the last as the third semester showed. He's so unwilling to face his own grief that he projected that weakness onto everyone else and convinced himself that he had to be the one to "save" everyone from pain. It's a microcosm of how his "perfect" reality would be: a willing delusional fantasy for Maruki's eternal escapism.
• During the interrogation, Sae shows her own calling card, despite having trashed it before, having dismissed it as a joke. Did she take it out of the trash and iron it out or something? It's not exactly likely that there would be spares with the thieves or copies with her or the police.
  • Given that is the only copy, she must have taken it back out of the trash.
• I have a few questions regarding the "Timid Man" from Chihaya's Confidant who gets an offer to marry one of his employer's business partners. 1)Why didn't the other president make the offer to the head of the Timid Man's company, as opposed to a presumably low-level employee at said company? 2)Does the other president really expect the Timid Man to break up with his fiancee to marry her daughter, to say nothing of being willing to marry her daughter to someone who would do so? 3)Did the Timid Man even think to mention that he's engaged?
  • In that order: 1. Perhaps none of the higher ups were single or of a close enough age to the woman in question to avoid causing a scandal. 2. Given Japan’s rather notorious reputation with its workforce, the president might very well have thought he was doing Timid man a favor. 3. Depending on just how timid he is, he might not have said anything at all.
• Also on the topic of Arranged Marriage, the Values Dissonance page for this game points out that it's still fairly common for Japanese corporations, but wouldn't Haru be joining the Sugimura family rather than bringing her fiance into the Okumura family?
  • Perhaps the Okumura family is the more prominent of the two and that was part of whatever deal the two families made. It's not unheard of for the husband to take the wife's name if the family power gap is big enough.
    • It's possible, but on the other hand, Sugimura's father is a Dietman, while Okumura Foods didn't really take off until Okumura took over.
    • Okumura already took over and he's a big enough company to count.
• This maybe because I haven't played it yet, (I'm waiting for it to come out on pc like Persona 4) but why do palaces get destroyed? I mean I know the in-universe reason (Without the treasure their distorted worlds crumble) but in Persona 4 we can go back to the dungeons to our hearts content, and in Persona 3 we can visit any floor. Why are Persona 5's dungeons destroyed when completed?
  • They're consisdered isolated from general Mementos. The Midnight Channel Dungeons are a part of the Midnight Channel, which does not collapse without Izanami killed.
  • I meant out of universe, why not let them stand so one can level grind?
  • Open Mementos has it covered.
• Quick question, but do you think after the defeat of Yaldabaoth (and in Royal, Maruki), Kamoshida, Madarame, Kaneshiro, and Shido all had genuine changes of heart?
  • They would just admit their crimes and turn themselves to the police. Think of some of the just as scummy Mementos minor targets. It's especially demonstrated that Shido did let himself get tried after Yaldabaoth and his whole group lost power entirely with no Yaldabaoth and/or Akechi backing.
  • Yaldabaoth's defeat doesn't undo everything the Phantom Thieves did. All those changes of heart happened and are seemingly permanent. At least in the sense that the particular desires that lead to them be twisted the way they were before are gone. They could become corrupt again, but it would be in a different way.
• When you first infiltrate Madarame's Palace, Morgana treats it as if they still aren't sure if Madarame is someone they need to work on. Is the Palace itself not evidence enough that he's doing some heinous stuff behind the scenes, whether it's plagiarism or not? Ryuji even says the fact he HAS a Palace is sketchy enough as it is, it's not like extremely good-natured people would have Palaces, but Morgana is basically walking into a criminal's hideout and says he's not sure if this is legit.
  • As Futaba shows, you don't have to be bad or doing problematic things like Sae or Maruki. You just have to have extremely warped and distorted desires. And as shown with Maruki's palace in October, Morgana and Joker decide not to worry about it. That showed they don't go around destroying every palace they come across, they only decide to go after palaces when their rulers have become a problem in the real world. Madarame may have had distorted desires, but Morgana wasn't sure if those distorted desires had become an issue. It became pretty clear after seeing Nakanohara and Yusuke's cognitive portraits and then the golden sculpture that reflected how he considered his students' ideas as rightfully his own that made it clear that yeah he deserved to have his heart changed.
• If Shido became Prime Minister, wouldn't anyone else be able to stop him or force him to resign if anything bad came up?
  • Yaldabaoth just deletes him from existence, whatever happens next is the same when Joker strikes a deal with him.
• In the Sell Out Bad Ending, despite that Akechi never places the cop's gun in the Protagonist's hand (which he does in the true ending route), the cops STILL think he killed himself, despite that there's also a dead cop in the SAME ROOM. Won't anyone suspect foul play since the gun is missing?
  • Why? They're so confident that they disposed of Joker. This is the problem with Shido's entourage that anyone but Akechi is so stupid and so corrupt that the Grail just uses them like laughingstock.
  • You seem to be forgetting that this whole affair is just a farce. The officials, at least all the ones involved here, are on Shido's take. They aren't interested in making it convincing because it's all just an excuse to kill the leader of the Phantom Thieves with the barest veneer of due process so Shido could claim it as a political victory. It doesn't matter what the room or bodies look like because there isn't going to be any sort of real investigation. Hell, the coroner has already got a phony "suicide" report typed up just waiting for Shido to give the word.
• In the beginning, as the Protagonist is being interrogated and tortured by the cops, why did they say that the camera will not be used as evidence?
  • It's a standard catchphrase. Also even if they could they won't bother to order a check because they're confident enough.
  • The security footage would normally be useful for defense to prove police brutality making any confession inadmissible. The Detective was telling Joker that won't apply here. It doesn't matter if the illegal beating they're giving him is recorded because none of the people who'd be authorized to see the recording would care. Assuming the footage wasn't already being conveniently "lost" as they spoke. It's the Detective lording power over him that the law won't offer him any protection. It's a tactic both to make him sign the confession and to give the disgusting little man an additional sadistic thrill in torturing someone who can't fight back.
• How does the conspiracy even include some of its members? Shido and Okumura make sense, as both had political ambitions and likely aligned very strongly (though the game never names a direct party it's safe to assume those two would've run in the same one). The SIU Director also make sense to control information. Even Kaneshiro sort of fits; we see Shido has ties to Yakuza (the Cleaner), so a Mafia boss isn't a stretch. But then you get... a high school part-time detective, a principal of a high school? And an artist who forges his own work? Even with money, Madarame has absolutely nothing to either offer OR gain from the conspiracy- neither side is so strapped for cash they'd need the other, and it isn't like Madarame had any goals outside of 'sell the Sayuri'. Does Shido just really like his art that much? And that's not even getting into how Kobayakawa had even less to offer, while having more to mooch off of for no offer on his part.
  • Simple. Shido promised them wealth, utopia and connections as long as they're loyal to him. He doesn't deliver, of course, but who cares? Akechi is there because Shido needed someone to do dirty work with and the boy needed to kill for Shido as a starscream plot, plus the conspiracy doesn't establish itself without Akechi executing people on orders to begin with.
  • Don't forget that with Akechi, Shido has the ability to make any problems that his clients have "miraculously" solve themselves. Any political rivals can be removed, business competitors take their own companies out, and any other obstacles to gaining social power are or just annoying people can be easily dealt with. All you have to do is agree with Shido and he can fix anything for you with a phone call. They don't need to buy into Shido's crazy idea of utopia or anything. For most of them, it's purely transactional. After a few examples, word gets out and suddenly Shido is the guy that all the power brokers know they want to stay on his good side. Especially since they would realize that he could easily become his targets if they fail to kiss the ring.
  • Okumura's confession states that his involvement in the Conspiracy was that he paid for Akechi to take out his business rivals. It's likely the others were the same even if they didn't want someone dead; the Principal was covering for Kamoshida and might have contacted the Conspiracy for help (and realized he was in over his head after they got blackmail on him), and the contacts Madarame used to ruin his students if they left might have had ties to Shido.
  • Madarame might also be just another one of the people Akechi got blackmail on through the Metaverse.
• When did the protagonist sign the contract that allowed him access to the Velvet Room? (It had to be before April 10, since he first entered the Velvet Room on April 10.) For that matter, given that said contract stipulated that his life was a fiction, why would he sign it?
  • Remember that for a majority of the game, you aren't working under the normal Velvet Room conditions that his predecessors had. Igor was a fake, and Justine and Caroline were both not a whole individual and had memory issues. So it's possible Joker just managed to avoid needing a contract, and by the time things were back to normal it was too late to be worrying about that.
    • Whether he needed that contract or not, he definitely agreed to it; it's a Nonstandard Game Over if he doesn't.
• Why did Sae's interrogation question at the beginning of Ann's confidant change in Royal?
• How much was Joker telling Sae about his confidants? I know he purposely didn’t mention any names but did he tell her a teacher of his was moonlighting as a maid or a reporter was constantly offering him alcohol?
  • Unlikely even that much- almost every confidant starts with Sae making accusations about accomplices Joker might have had (an information broker, someone keeping his place and clothes clean, etc). Joker never confirms or denies any of it, and the 'true' ending explicitly requires not selling them out. At most, he might name drop 'a reporter told me about Kaneshiro' or such, but nothing more specific than that.
• You know I kind of am confused about why Okumura thought of his corporate hq as outer space. I mean all the other palaces make sense: Kamoshida saw Shujin as his castle because he was allowed to do whatever he wanted, Madarame saw his pupils as his "artwork", Kaneshiro saw everyone in Shibuya as someone he could take money from, Futaba thought she was going to die in Sojiro's house, Shido thought of Japan as directionless and wanted to steer it however he wanted, and Maruki thought of the stadium as a lab because well it was originally going to be. I don't know what mental quantum leap caused Okumura to think of his place of business as outer space. I get he's a space otaku but is it all there is to it?
  • IIRC he thought of his company as a "take-off point" (hence why his HQ becomes a spaceport) for him to transition into his political career (which is symbolized as being outer space).
• When does Shujin hold its student council elections? As a third-year, Makoto should probably have to retire from the student council at some point (presumably no later than the end of the first term/start of summer break) so she can focus on exams, but she's presumably on the student council as late as the culture festival at the end of October.
  • Presumably, her grades and test results are good enough that she's allowed to keep her position later than normal, and the elections happen offscreen once the last of Shujin's plot relevancy (the culture festival) comes and goes. Furthermore, Makoto herself may have chosen to stay on as student council president despite the challenges in order to hold off suspicion that she's a member of the Phantom Thieves, and also to have an excuse to have all the Shujin-based members of the team gather at the school if needed without arousing suspicion either (such as when they handled the votes for the culture festival's guest of honor).
• Untouchable is a shop focusing on guns, armour, and self-defence ware. Outside of making it easier for the player to upgrade gear, why does Untouchable sell things like cat sweaters and scarfs?
  • Iwai doesn't ask you questions when he buys your Metaverse junk, so it's best not to ask him questions about some of his specialty inventory.
• What was Dr. Maruki doing at Shujin on April 15? I can understand his jumping at the chance to help the students after Shiho attempted suicide, but the students were already talking about him that morning, before Shiho jumped.
  • Enrolling into Shuujin Academy to become part-time counselor or do cognitive research? His research was embargoed by Shido right before that.
    • What part-time counseling or cognitive research could he have done at Shujin Academy before Shiho jumped?
    • Maruki was already scheduled to arrive at Shujin before that as a publicity stunt. Shiho’s suicide attempt just accelerated plans.
• After changing his heart, why were the Phantom Thieves still worried about Shido not confessing in time and being elected? They can guarantee he'd be an honest, well-meaning politician, while they can't guarantee the same for anyone else. Why is preventing his election such a big deal?
  • Because Shido himself is far from the only problem. He's the head of a network of other very powerful and ruthless criminals. All of whom have shown that they're willing to eliminate anyone who gets in the way of their plans for power. Groups like that are very unlikely to simply give up their ambitions just because Shido grew a conscience at the last minute. The Thieves are on a timer to prevent their assassination from the whole conspiracy (or worse if the cut bad ending were to be believed). The only reason they aren't already in custody or dead is because of Shido holding his allies back long enough to ensure his "perfect" ascension to Prime Minister. Even worse, Morgana correctly deduces that there are actual supernatural elements behind the scenes brainwashing people, which is already grounds for urgent intervention. Why wouldn't they be worried with so much on the line for them?
  • We also have to remember that Shido's allies have access to all of Wakaba's data. Sure, Akechi may not be there to act as their psychic hitman anymore, but the conspiracy has shown that they can manipulate the cognitive world in ways that the Thieves didn't know was possible. If there is any way to restore a Palace or enact the same steps on one of his underlings as a backup, they would be the ones to know. Until Shido publicly gives himself and his allies up, the Thieves are not out of the woods yet.
    • They cannot — it's all bluffing. You cannot imagine a group of people who can't even check for a corpse somehow using the Cognitive World to mass mind control people (that's what the Holy Grail does on its own) or even to any creatively destructive degree. The main problem is that the thieves will get arrested and executed if they don't reach the Grail in time whenever the mass mind control happens.
• In hindsight, while Igor/Yaldabaoth/Lavenza were able to manipulate almost everything else to work out for Joker, it sure is lucky for them that Ryuji just so happened to guess and blurt out Kamoshida's keywords, considering that they had no way to ensure he would and that without that initial entry nothing Metaversal would have ever happened. What would their plan have been if that hadn't happened?
  • Fundamentally, it doesn't happen without Yaldabaoth influencing the masses. Something that blatant like Kamoshida doesn't last that long under normal circumstances. In fact the principal that protects him won't be there in the first place because Shido won't be on a big enough position anyways.
  • It didn't have to be Kamoshida. As long as he had the app, Ren would eventually get curious enough to activate it, stumble into a Palace, and be forced to awaken his Persona for self defense. After that, "Igor" would step in to give him the basic rundown of Palaces and how to change hearts before sending him off to play his part. Kamoshida's Palace just happened to be the one he ended up infiltrating first. If anything, him being the first target screwed "Igor" over since it let Ren and Ryuji make contact with Morganna.
• When going to Mementos with Futaba for the first time, why do the Thieves reiterate what's already been established about Mementos and their effect on it as if it's new information? Even Morgana, the one who explained Mementos, is inexplicably surprised.
  • I got the sense they weren't sure whether Mementos was expanding or if it was deeper but they didn't have access yet.
  • None of them really understand Mementos, not even Morgana (he couldn't get past the first door before the Thieves joined him). All they've had to go on until that point is vague hypothesizing based on the few changes they've been able to observe. Since they have very limited information to work with, it would be very easy to make bad assumptions from misinterpretations. Having Futaba around gave the team a member with knowledge of her mother's research, letting them refine their understanding into something closer to the truth.
• Why does the narrative go out of its way to prevent Ren from telling the other Thieves about "Igor" and the Velvet Room? Every time he/we try to broach the subject, Ryuji just dismisses him/us and everyone else just doesn't acknowledge it.
  • The series has done that since Persona 3. For some reason, the Wild Cards are always unwilling or unable to tell their friends about the Velvet Room. Given that the Room and its residents make themselves undetectable to anyone outside of their guests, they have no way to prove any of their claims about the VR. I imagine that the Wild Cards eventually give up and take the hint that Igor wants the Velvet Room to be kept a secret.
• So there's been something bothering me for a long while now but how did the field of cognitive psience come about anyway and when? I mean it felt like researchers like Wakaba and Maruki were positing about worlds of people’s cognition being made manifest but up to that point it would have been purely theoretical. The first practical application that proved that it was possible was Akechi, but neither Wakaba nor Maruki knew that at the time, so how did they and other researchers come up with the idea? I suppose it builds on the concept of the machine that manifested Maki's dream world in Persona 1 assuming that is firm canon in Persona 5, but other than that I'm not sure how they came up with the idea it was possible to make mental worlds material.
  • We have no idea, all we can do is guess until they explain it. Best idea I have is that it came into existence because of all the unexplained incidents that have happened because of the metaverse and people's attempts to understand them.
    • What unexplained incidents? It's implied Wakaba and Maruki were studying Cognitive Psience long before Akechi obtained the Metanav and awakened to his persona.
  • Persona 1 and 2 are in a weird space, continuity-wise. They get a few small references, but are deliberately kept as vague as possible so nothing is ever confirmed if they connect to the events of the continuity of the post-P3 games. Discounting them, the experiments of the Kirijo Group prove that Wakaba and Maruki were far from the first researchers to study the cognitive world. It seems that the few groups in the know either end up destroyed in their own hubris or go out of their way to keep their findings a secret. Either for the public good like the Shadow Operatives or for their own selfish purposes.
• There was a security camera in the interrogation room, which should have recorded Sae helping Joker escape (and provided evidence of Akechi's failure to kill Joker to boot). How did the Phantom Thieves make sure that nobody in Shido's conspiracy would check the footage? Or were they just really lucky that nobody did?
  • They don't, but Shido's conspiracy is really stupid so they also don't go through the standard forensics procedures. Can't expect them to check footage when they are confident enough to not check for a corpse.
  • If the camera was recording, it would capture all of Joker's testimony and Akechi shooting both him and the guard. All things the conspiracy would prefer not to be recorded. It would be much better for their plan if the camera and microphone were to suffer a "convenient" outage for the whole period. The whole event was just a farce to give Shido the political victory of catching the Phantom Thieves' leader before killing him with the barest veneer of legality as cover. As arrogant as they may be, the conspiracy isn't stupid enough to keep video evidence of the blatantly illegal acts they're doing around. Especially if it would run counter to the narrative they're trying to sell the public of Shido defeating the "villainous" Phantom Thieves.
  • Just to drive the point home, there was a camera in the room where Joker was being beaten and drugged into signing his "confession". The detective explicitly said that the camera won't offer any protection, implying that it won't hold any evidence of these blatantly illegal acts. They didn't even bother to remove the syringe they drugged him with from the room, proving that camera evidence is a non-factor.
• If Shido knew that Akechi was not entirely loyal to him, why was Shido's cognition of Akechi entirely loyal to him?
  • For all his hatred and ruthlessness, Akechi is fundamentally still a lonely kid at heart. On some level that he would never admit to himself, he followed Shido's orders because he wanted the recognition of his father. It's why he set up this elaborate revenge ploy when he could have entered his Palace and attacked his Shadow at any point. Shido knows this about Akechi and used his longing for any sort of validation to string him along to get as much use out of him as possible. Shido knew full well that Akechi's ability to enter the Metaverse at will made him far too dangerous to keep around indefinitely, so he played dumb about Akechi's scheming while setting up a precaution to take him out when the time came. The Cognitive Akechi was the representation of him as Shido's tool that he slightly modified to act as the executioner for when the real Akechi inevitably tries to make his move on Shido's Palace.
    • Let's not forget that Shido has far more control over his own cognitions than any other palace ruler. He may have been able to tinker with Cognitive Akechi at will.
  • Shido's view on Akechi is 'he's the perfect tool because he's a dumb teenager who will fool himself into thinking he's beating me while I play him like a fiddle and make him set the stage for his own downfall.' Cognitive!Akechi is just version of Akechi who knows what Shido knows: that Akechi was always a pawn and being played for a chump, and he was kidding himself thinking that he could take down Shido with a scandal.
  • A big part of why he opposed Maruki's reality was because of this realization. He was embarrassed and incensed that he had been played for a fool by the man he intended to destroy. Shido probably suspected who Akechi really was from the moment he laid eyes on him. He probably would have had him "eliminated" and "cleaned up" any evidence of their connection if Akechi's revelations he had access to the Metaverse hadn't intrigued Shido. The fact Shido of all people could play him like fiddle must have really rankled him. And it feeds into why Cognitive Akechi was a loyal puppet. Shido managed to get his one competent subordinate who was plotting his downfall, to dance to his tune.
• Once Yaldabaoth was defeated, why did Joker have to turn himself in to the police? They were involved in Shido's scheme, albeit unwittingly, so why should Sae have cared about what they thought? Plus, Sae could have blown the whistle to the international community, since the way the police treated Joker violated the United Nations Convention on the Rights of the Child.
  • Because the conspiracy is still powerful. Much more than one single lawyer. The higher ups will still try to arrest someone and Sae can't stop them because she simply doesn't have that kind of authority. Despise everything, Joker and the other Phantom Thieves have committed actual crimes as a vigilante, so they would be able to hold him. However, if he turns himself in, Sae could use his status as a key witness for Shido's crimes to spare him the worst of it. That and letting the cops claim the victory of having the leader of the Phantom Thieves would limit the chances of them going after the others because Joker would keep their involvements secret. It's not a good solution, as Sae admits, but it's the least bad option she has at the moment.
  • As for the getting the UN involved, that would not be a quick or simple option for anyone. It would take months to set up, be much harder to prove, and become exponentially more complicated as it now becomes a matter of global politics. The process could go on for years, during which time, Joker and probably the rest of the Thieves would almost certainly be in custody for every charge the system could come up with to hold them, if only out of spite. The UN isn't some magical solution to something like a case of police brutality.
• If Akechi was aware who the phantom thieves were since the Okumura arc and had hard proof and started developing true hatred for the thieves and more specifically Joker, why pre-third semester did he just, never bother to do something to him outside the metaverse? If we knew where the thieves stayed at and where Joker stayed at, why did he never organize the police or tell Sae? It wouldn't get in the way of his plan against Shido and would've saved him alot of trouble.
  • Because his hate stems from jealousy. He doesn't want to just kill Joker. He wants to beat him. He wants to savor the moment Joker realizes that Akechi has destroyed everything he loves by his own terms. Just sending cops to tackle him after school or sniping him from the shadows in the Metaverse won't give him that moment of satisfaction in proving his superiority.
• How did Futaba, an armature hacker (albeit good hacker) find the identities of the Phantom Thieves based off a couple of texts but the police force and the Japanese government couldn't? The government never had the idea to tap peoples phones to reach for criminal activity? If Sae also was suspicious of Makoto at one point (and being how strict Sae is), how come she just never bothered to check Makoto's phone?
  • Because Joker lives in her dad's shop. She already had bugs installed in Leblanc so she could look after Sojiro in her own way, so it was only a matter of time until she overheard heard the crew say something that would tip her off to their activities and their real names. From there, she investigated on her own, probably to determine if they were a threat to Sojiro. When she was satisfied that they weren't, she decided to sit on that info for the moment as a curiosity, having no reason to turn them in. She only decided to blackmail them with it when she was desperate for their help. The government couldn't do the same because had no idea what to look for. Futaba just happened to be in the perfect situation to get information nobody else had with knowledge of her mother's research to understand the implications of it.
    • For the Sae part, she never tried anything of the sort because she honestly didn’t suspect Makoto, as shown by her reaction both too the revelation’s that she was involved with the PT’s. Makoto outright says that Sae doesn't take much interest in her activities beyond her academic performance.
• Shido had a meeting with (at least some of) his conspirators at the Wilton on May 5 (presumably about Kamoshida's confession, based on what the protagonist and Morgana overheard from them), and the principal of Shujin (one of Shido's conspirators) told Makoto to investigate Kamoshida's sudden change of heart the next day. But the SIU director (another conspirator) only seemed to come to the conclusion that Kamoshida's confession was caused by a change of heart on May 16. Why the 11-day difference? Shouldn't the SIU director's monologue about Kamoshida's confession have happened before or at about the same time as Shido's meeting, rather than nearly two weeks after?
  • Shido is still a politcian, so the meeting on May 5 might not have had anything to do with Kamoshida. And even if it was, most of the other conspirators are also high ranking officials, so maybe 11 days later was the first instance they could all get together on their collective schedules.
• Does Yaldabaoth's influence extend only to Tokyo, or is he actually the representative of the entire humanity's desire of being controlled?
  • Given that two of the Mementos targets live away from Tokyo, it's possible that, while rooted in Tokyo (one of the largest cities on Earth, and the place where every other nation and culture on Earth intersects through Japan), his influence does indeed expand far beyond it but would be weaker away from its core, similar to the Dark Hour extending at least as far as Yakushima and wherever the P3 protagonist was living prior to the events of the game but there not being evidence of shadows venturing far from Tartarus. And if his plan was successful, Yaldabaoth absolutely would expand his influence to encompass the globe, if it weren't already.
• Why do the Phantom Thieves trust Morgana? We know he's trustworthy, but in the perspective of Ryuji and Joker, Morgana was introduced as captured by Kamoshida's shadows, after which he speaks about changing the hearts of the wicked adults, which by the end of Kamoshida's boss fight, reveals that even he wasn't sure that changing the heart will work and the Phantom Thieves may have even killed him.
  • They didn't. At least, not a first. However, when they were desperate to deal with Kamoshida, Morgana offered them the only feasible option to accomplish anything so they accepted his offer. While they were in the Palace, he was the only one who had any idea what they were doing while the others were just blindly fumbling around. After they succeeded, the three kids saw proof that Morgana's methods work had bonded with him enough to validate the trust they had given him. When they decided continued working as Phantom Thieves, it was only natural to keep Morgana on as a teammate/mentor because he's both a proven friend and the closest thing they have to an expert at that point.
• Early in Royal you can overhear Haru talking to a teacher about gardening on Shujin's rooftop... the same place where the Phantom Thieves initially hold their meetings. The protagonist, at the very least, should know that another student is regularly coming up to the rooftop and should probably be avoided, so why don't any of the Phantom Thieves bring that up?
  • The real answer is because Haru's extra scenes before joining the crew were exclusive to Royal and not allowed to have any impact on story elements from the original game. If you want an in-universe explanation, the rooftop was still a convenient location to meet and Haru is still only one person who occasionally goes up there.
• The distortions of Futaba's and Shido's cognitions of their surroundings go way beyond their Palaces. Futaba saw not only her house as a tomb, but everything outside of her house as a desert. Similarly, in Shido's cognition, not only is the Diet building a ship, but all the rest of Tokyo is flooded. Not that the Phantom Thieves would have guessed these keywords, but could they have gotten into Futaba's Palace by entering "Futaba Sakura," "outside of Sojiro Sakura's house," and "desert"? Could they have gotten into Shido's Palace by entering "Masayoshi Shido," "Tokyo," and "flooded city"?
  • No, because those aren't the distortions. They're aspects of it, but only of the background. Shido's Palace is a ship and he sees everything not in his control as a pointless ruin, so naturally everything around it is just the ocean to carry it. Futaba sees her room as her tomb and doesn't have familiarity with the outside world anymore, so the world outside her room is a desert. It's the same reason that they couldn't get to the other Palaces by entering "city". Kaneshiro was an exception because he specifically saw all of Shibuya as his territory, explaining why his Palace was a mobile bank flying over it, draining money everywhere it went.

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