Headscratchers / Dragon Ball Super

Beerus's strength relative to Goku

• How much stronger Beerus is supposed to be compared to Goku seems to be a constantly moving goalpost. The first scaling we get is Toriyama stating that SSG Goku was a 6, Beerus was a 10, and Whis was a 15. Then, in the anime when they redid the fight, Whis stated that Beerus had to use 70% of his power, with very little reason to lie. Then Goku gets SSB, but it doesn't worry Beerus even a little bit. Then Goku uses Kaioken x10 and later x20 on top, and while Beerus is impressed, it's still not enough. Then Goku gets Ultra Instinct, which is even stronger, so surely Goku should be good enough now, right? Nope, shortly before before Goku's fight with Beast Gohan, Beerus once again says Goku needs to become stronger to beat him, and this is backed up by Beerus easily thrashing Vegeta in a fight not too long before this. Making the whole entire thing even more confusing is the conversation about how Goku absorbed the power of God to make his base form around as strong as it, and then we have Toriyama stating that Goku going SSG again from his base form would be superfluous and wouldn't do much of anything because his base form already has it. This raises even more questions as to what his SSJ or SSB multipliers are doing exactly and why Goku using even just a 200x Super Saiyan 2 power multiplier from his base form doesn't just completely obliterate every opponent. How strong is Goku supposed to be and why is he just completely incapable of catching up?

Super Saiyan God Expectation

• Beerus wakes up after 39 years looking for the Super Saiyan God, yet right before he went to sleep, the very same rest in which he wanted to be woken up after a set amount of time had passed to locate the Super Saiyan God, he tells Frieza to destroy Planet Vegeta. So how is it that he woke up wanting to find and confront the Super Saiyan God when he should know by this time that they were all wiped out? Assuming, of course, that Beerus didn't just somehow believe that Frieza would disregard his orders, which also doesn't make any sense.
  • Probably because his want to find/confront the Super Saiyan God was the result of a given prophecy, and despite a few that didn't work out, the oracle fish is mostly reliable. So even though it could be wrong and everything, Beerus knows that if somehow a Super Saiyan God exists and could give him a good fight - even if Planet Vegeta/the Saiyans were wiped out - it's worth checking out. He wouldn't care if something was named Super Saiyan God and wasn't at all related to the Saiyans, so long as they're the real deal (and if not he'd destroy them, condemn the prophecy as a failure, then move on).
  • That completely misses the point. Beerus was given a prophecy right before he went to bed that he'd meet a good challenger in the Super Saiyan God and also told Frieza to destroy the Planet Vegeta. Those two opposites contradict one another. Beerus wanted to meet the Super Saiyan God, which is why he went to sleep, yet he crippled and hurt his chances by telling Frieza to kill the only race that the Super Saiyan God could possibly come from, which makes no sense and makes you wonder why he woke up expecting to find a Super Saiyan God when he asked Frieza to wipe out the Saiyans. It just smells of bad writing because for as lazy as Beerus is, he isn't lazy enough not to destroy his own planets. That's what Champa does.
  • Perhaps for a normal person it wouldn't follow, but for a god? They typically don't have the same standards, lines of thinking, etc. Plus even if he isn't lazy like Champa, that doesn't mean he wouldn't have moments where he's too bored/disinterested to go all the way over 'there' in the universe, just to destroy a planet - given his reaction of "Really? It's that far?", he may have had a moment of 'bah, it's easier to just get Frieza to do it; I'm gonna be napping anyway'. Or something.
  • Beerus may have been under the impression that more Saiyans would survive. Lets face it Frieza wiping out all the Saiyans was highly improbable. Given that babies are sent out into space and even if Goku hadn't hit his head he'd have no idea to return to the ship there should be plenty of stray Saiyans. Given what we see of the average PTO warrior nobody beneath Quiqui is going to take on a Saiyan and survive so hunting around the galaxy for them is a lot of work. Also Beerus isn't really the planning type.
  • He may have thought that giving Freeza that order would actually help the Super Saiyan God appear. After all, a warrior capable of giving Beerus a good fight certainly wouldn't be killed by the likes of (pre-training) Freeza. And in a way, he was probably right, as without the destruction of their planet, the surviving Saiyans would probably never rise to the heights of power they had achieved in the series.

Pan's birth timeline

• Pan is canonically 4 years old at the end of Dragon Ball Z, meaning that she was born 4-5 years after the fight with Buu. Dragon Ball Super, however, takes place only 6 MONTHS after the fight with Buu. Assuming Dragon Ball Super follows pretty much the exact same turn of events as Dragon Ball Z: Battle of Gods, that mean that Videl is already pregnant with Pan, even if only in the very-first stages of pregnancy. So, unless Pan somehow has an older brother/sister we don't know about, the whole "Five Saiyans to make a Super Saiyan God" thing will be either have to be changed or create one of the most gargantuan plot-holes in the franchise.
  • The time of Super is not linear. According to Old Kai, Beerus had been awake for only half a day despite us seeing several days with the other characters like Vegeta's vacation and Goku working. Not to mention the show only says that six months after the fight with Buu, the people of Earth had their memory of Buu erased. From there, the show has been very vague about how much time has actually past.
    • We don't have anyway of accurately gauging how long a day is for Old Kai. He and Kibitokai live on the World of the Kais, how long it takes that planet to complete a rotation is never discussed. Aside from simple story convenience the odds that any two planets have similar day lengths is unlikely.
  • A day is the same as on Earth, that was shown in the Buu Saga when Old Kai said it would take twenty-four hours for Gohan's power to be unlocked. Plus, this is a show known for ignoring facts of science. On top of that, Old Kai and Beerus both said he has been asleep for thirty-five years. The same length of time from Battle of Gods.
  • It's already stated on the main page, but Super is using Broad Strokes in regards to how events match up with Battle of Gods and DBZ; the major stuff still happens, but various details have been changed around, presumably the timeline included. Therefore, the facts remain that Videl is pregnant, and the events of Battle of Gods and Resurrection of Frieza will happen, including the aspect required to awaken the power of a SSJG, and the connection to the Distant Finale will be adjusted as needed.
  • It would actually make more sense for Dragon Ball Super to take place almost five years after the Buu Saga. The events of Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! takes place two years after the Buu Saga. Super supposedly takes place some time after that. Four years would be enough time for Gohan and Videl to graduate high school, get their B As, and get engaged. Considering that they were still in high school during the Buu saga, it would be weird for them to get married right after graduation. They don't seem the type to do that (unlike Goku and Chichi). As for Goten and Trunks not looking 12 and 13? Maybe they inherited their respective fathers' short genes or something. Goku was around the same height at that age, wasn't he?
  • I don't think the events of Dragon Ball: Yo! Son Goku and His Friends Return!! happened in Super. There is no mention of other remnants of Frieza's army coming to Earth and Vegeta's brother isn't mentioned at all unlike the movie.

Buu and Pudding

• Can't Buu just use his magic laser from his antenna and zap random things into his favourite treats on Bulma's ship? See, if Buu can create sweets and chocolate, it's not a big deal even if he runs out of pudding, you know? Hercule should have convinced Buu to share some pudding with Beerus somehow...
  • That would imply Buu has the maturity to consider such options. He doesn't think that way. Mr. Satan can get him to behave to a certain extent, but Buu still thinks in simplistic terms.
  • There's also that he is the God of Destruction. He serves as the counterpart to the Kais who are the Gods of Creation. This may be Fridge Brilliance as to why Buu can actually use his Candy Beam in the first place; because he absorbed the Grand Supreme Kai, he could create things (or at least transform items magically).
  • The candy Buu transforms doesn't taste as good as candy actually made from plants. The fact "chocolate made by people" tastes better than "chocolate made from people" is part of why Satan was able to get Buu to turn "good" in the first place.

Pat-on-the-back shoving the God of Destruction

• How was Yamcha patting Beerus on the back enough to push him forward? I know Beerus was relaxed and had his guard down, but the difference in power is just so extreme.
  • The same way Mr. Satan survived getting slammed by Beerus, or the same way Vegeta got pushed around by those humans on the cruise ship in episode 2: Comedy.
  • Once in DBZ, Krillin assumed Goku would be aware of a rock he threw at him, only for it to hit him and cause pain - Goku's indignant response was that he may be super strong, but he does have nerves. Presumably that means that, when they have their guard down, they react as we would to usual gestures; they have to actually 'try' to not be moved by such things, and Beerus wasn't really at that moment.
  • That's not how ki works. See, when they're not using ki, they're only slightly stronger than the typical athlete. Yamcha was most likely putting some ki into that pat to impress Beerus, which means that he was leagues stronger than anyone not using ki, which at this point means Beerus.
  • I figured it was a mixture of both. Beerus wasn't expecting a sharp slap on the back so his guard was down, and Yamcha was using a bit of ki in order to impress him. It's the same reason why Goku got caught off-guard by Vegeta's sucker punch near the end of their fight in the Buu Saga. Goku wasn't expecting it, and Vegeta used a bit of his own ki to put more strength in his blow.

Bulma still being alive

• Let's face it, even though Bulma was ballsy enough to bitch slap Beerus and chastise him for ruining her birthday party, she's still stupid for defying the god of destruction that can cause a major shitstorm. Yet somehow, she didn't turn into a splattering mess from Beerus pimp slapping her across the face. How did she manage to survive the impact when Goku and Vegeta are pummeled around with just a flick of finger from Beerus?
  • Rule of Drama, Plot Armor, and avoiding a Dropped a Bridge on Him are in full effect here. Plus Beerus could have been holding back an extreme amount of power from when he curb-stomped Goku And Vegeta.
  • Also probably related to how Chichi and Bulma could 'handle' Goku and Vegeta, respectively, enough to survive conceiving children from them; they're a lot tougher than your average women, by default.
  • Throughout the episode, Beerus deliberately matches the strength of whoever's attacking him. At the end of the fight, Gohan, Piccolo and Tien are in the same overall condition, despite a huge disparity in their fighting power. It's not clear in-universe why Beerus doesn't just kill them since he's planning to destroy the planet anyway, but for whatever reason he metes out damage in equal measure to what is thrown at him.
    • It's not stated, but it's implied. He's kind of a sadist, who likes seeing inferior fighters trying their best against him on the off chance that one of them will manage to put up a decent fight. He's basically playing with his prey, knowing well that when the time comes, they stand no chance. That's kind of a staple trait of Dragon Ball characters, both heroes and villains (to the point that it's the lack of this quality that made Kid Buu the most dangerous and most frightening form of Buu, even if he wasn't the strongest).
    • It's not so much sadism as a warped sort of respect and admiration, I think. He admires people for the chutzpah to stand up to him, so he'll fight them away such a level as to give them a sporting chance. The fact that Bulma, a normal and unremarkable human, had the sheer ballsiness to chew him out and slap him impresses him in equal measure as irks him, so he "just" hits hard enough to send her flying.
  • It should be noted that even in the movie Beerus went out of his way only to disable his opponents, not kill them. He even catches Goku and brings him down to Earth after he faints after their battle. Beerus seems to disconnect actually killing people with destroying planets. It is not so much that he enjoys playing with his prey since he seems to border on disinterested when he fights those below him.

Goten's reaction to Vegeta

• This may be completely random and me thinking way too much on this: at the end of fight with Beerus, when Vegeta says he doesn't need the power-up, the screen cuts to a few seconds of Goten looking at him weirdly, then Goku puts his hand on top of the boy's head. What was that about? Why did Goten look at Vegeta like he were annoyed/irritated by what Vegeta had to say? Again, sorry if random, just something I noticed.
  • Remember, even if Vegeta acknowledges Goku's strength, he's still the stubborn and prideful Saiyan deep in the core of his personality. To ask for assistance in becoming stronger, Vegeta must learn how to swallow his pride and put aside his selfishness for one. WMG from here, but it is possible that Goten heard from his best friend Trunks about how their Saiyan dads are hardcore trainers. But unlike Goku, Vegeta will act pissy about being surpassed in terms of power level.
  • Vegeta offhandedly calls Goku a fool. His reasoning being he will achieve the power he desires without relying on other people and through training alone. Those who gain power by absorbing them from others (like Goku did for the Super Saiyan God transformation) are fools. Goten is angry that Vegeta insulted his father (this could be Dub Text, I am not sure what Vegeta said in the original Japanese version).

Deal with animals

• What the hell happened to all the animals people? In episode 15, a race of feline aliens come to Earth, but before they do they scan the planet searching for their sworn enemies, which are dogs. Then they conclude that there aren't any with their level of intelligence on the planet. Except the planet used to be full of human-level intelligence dogs, even the king of the planet was one. And since we're on this subject, what's the deal with "Bills destroyed the dinosaurs"? Dinosaurs were plenty on Dragon Ball's Earth when Goku was a kid, and were still around when Gohan was a kid. Did the creators just up and forget what the world is like in Dragon Ball?
  • I'd chalk it up to their scan being extremely literal- they were searching for members of their sworn enemies with their level of intelligence... without proper knowledge of Earth, or inadequacy of their scanning abilities (likely), they don't find any, and nor did they think to scan for dogs period (which would've been a lot more comprehensive). As for the dinosaurs, Beerus is either making that up, or he was extremely non-thorough in his attempt, because they are still around in this universe (which is probably the joke).
    • It's also been mentioned (in the Super comic) that there has been at least 1 apocalyptic war on the Dragonball Earth in the distant past (meaning perhaps that Sandland is a distant prequel to Dragonball). This explains both the Schizo Tech of Doctor Slump, Dragon Ball, & Jaco the Galactic Patrolman, and all the weird animals and beastmen, despite being set on Earth - Dragon Ball is set far, far After the End, and in that time you can expect lots of things like Genetic engineering, etc., to have occurred, resulting in both Beastmen and in things like Dinosaurs either being cloned or just genetically created from basically scratch.

Accessing Tagoma's full power

• Spoiler alert to those who haven't watched episode 22 yet: Ginyu is back, and this time, he took over Tagoma's body thanks to his clever use with the frog's body; Ginyu was stuck in a frog's body since the middle of the Frieza Saga. But what surprises me is that Ginyu managed to access the full power of Tagoma, compared to how he couldn't even reach Goku's full power after swapping bodies back then. How did Ginyu manage to adjust to his newly swapped body after years of being trapped in a Namekian frog form?
  • It was made apparent in the Saiyan and Namek/Frieza Sagas that warriors from Earth learned to manipulate ki differently than most other fighters. Frieza's fighters were always completely thrown by the fact that they could raise and lower their ki at will. Ginyu couldn't figure out how to raise and control the ki in Goku's body. This probably isn't a problem he faces when taking the bodies of most other fighters. Remember, he was surprised and confused/frustrated himself by the fact that he couldn't access Goku's full power.
  • It could be because Tagoma's body is very similar to his old one. One of the reasons why Goku's body was so difficult to use was because Goku got stronger using the Kaioken, something Ginyu didn't know. And, as Goku himself said, his power comes from uniting body and mind, not just from raising his power like Ginyu tried to do. Tagoma has none of that. He got stronger because he was tortured for four months by Frieza. Ginyu is also so much stronger than anyone other than Super Saiyan Gohan that he can afford to rely on raw strength to get ahead.
  • What I don't get about that scenario is how is it that Ginyu is still alive? Since this takes place after the Buu Saga, which had Porunga bring everyone who wasn't evil back to life once Earth was restored. Vegeta got a pass because he'd reformed by the time the wish was made. So if Captain Ginyu hadn't, why was he brought back by the dragon?
  • The wish from Porunga was to wish back everyone except the really bad ones. That is how Pilaf and his gang were revive despite still being bad. Ginyu hasn't killed anyone in years so Porunga probably gave him a pass and saw him as harmless since he was still in a frog's body. Porunga was so forgiving that he gave Vegeta a pass despite him killing well over one-hundred people less than 48 hours ago and awakening the demon that murdered the entire population of Earth. Reformed or not, Vegeta had a lot of bad karma going into the Kid Buu fight.

'Tagoma' vs Roshi

• In episode 22, Roshi takes a full force punch to the face from Ginyu in Tagoma's body, in his base form no less. Considering that Tagoma's body had power higher then that of base form Gohan, Piccolo with his weighted clothing on, Tien, Krillin, and base form Roshi combined, how in the flying fuck is that possible?! If Roshi was hit with the same amount of force that Gohan was, logically his body should have exploded into a bloody mess, even if he had been hit in his buff form, to say nothing of his base form. This was not even Played for Laughs like a lot of similar scenes, this was played dead straight.
  • Roshi makes a comment to the effect that Gohan had been neglecting his training, which all-but implies despite everything we've seen, Roshi's body has been toughened up beyond his previous base form power. So what should have been a splatter-hit probably only turned into a serious blow, with/without Plot Armor and other such things.

Piccolo dying

• How did Piccolo die? What I mean is, I know he got shot on the chest, but as a Namekian, it should not be enough to kill him, specially considering back in Buu saga, he was shattered while in statue form, and after Dabura was killed, he regrew his entire body because his head was still intact, how a single shot in the chest when he wasn't even particularly depleted energy wise is enough to kill him?
  • That seems to be it though; every time Piccolo (or another Namekian) has used the regeneration ability, they were consciously aware and exerting effort; it's not a passive ability. Even for Cell, a single-celled part of him 'lived' after he exploded, allowing regeneration. If Frieza's blast killed Piccolo instantly through sheer power and/or precision, then it was simply too late.

Frost looking just like Frieza

• Why do the Z Fighters insist that Frost looks just like Frieza when aside from being the same race they really don't look anything alike. It's not just the color that's different either. Frost is taller and skinnier in his first form, his third form is smaller and the horns are distinctly different.
  • Those are smaller details - Frost's overall frame of his first form is pretty similar to Frieza's, color and small size bits aside. The same applies to his third and fourth forms as well, obviously different in a number of respects, but with enough similarities that he is clearly a member of Frieza's race (just from a different Universe), and therefore enough to call them similar in general in-universe(s).
    • It's obvious they are of the same race. Just like Beerus and Champa are the same race as are Vados and Whis. They are all siblings in fact. But everybody keeps calling Frost Frieza's counterpart as if they should have the same personality. Vegeta comments on how he can't stand that face. Goku comments he never believed there could be a good Frieza. None of them save perhaps Vegeta if we get some flashbacks have ever been face to face with more than two Arcosians. Vegeta may very well have met King Cold on multiple occasions but nobody else even got close enough to get a good look. The only explanation that makes sense is that they didn't believe Frieza had a race and was instead some sort of unique mutant.
    • King Cold was a secret from almost everyone save for those in the inner most circle. Vegeta clearly had no clue who King Cold was. It also shouldn't be a surprise how Goku and his friends generalize an entire race base on one individual. When Gohan, Krillin, and Goku first saw the Namekians they called them a race full of Piccolos. So them saying that Frost looks like Frieza is really no different then Gohan and Krillin saying how Nail looks just like Piccolo. Frost literally having the same voice as Frieza also doesn't help.

Not asking Fortuneteller Baba?

• Bulma goes to the omniscient Zuno to ask a question. Why didn't she consult Baba first? It's not like she can't pay her bill, and if she decided to not pay all she'd have to do would be to sick Yamcha on her warriors.
  • Most likely answer, Toriyama and Toei forgot about her. In-Universe answer, it could be because Baba's powers are just as limited as Shenron. Her crystal ball probably can't search the entire universe for the Super Dragon Ball since it is so vast. Which would make sense since Shenron should be more powerful in finding things than Baba, being a reality warping dragon.

Fastest speed vs. Instant Transmission

• So, Whis uses some form of super-fast travel to get around the Universe. Beerus apparently can't use it because he always depends on Whis for travel purposes. Instant Transmission on the other hand, is instantaneous and therefore much faster. Goku learned it easily, and both Whis and Beerus immediately recognize the technique. Why do neither of them know how to do it? Seems like it'd be a lot more convenient than Whis's beam-of-light travel.
  • It took Goku over a year to learn the Instant Transmission. The same Goku who learned almost all his other techniques just by seeing them once or twice. So I wouldn't say he learned it easily. The technique also seems exclusive to the people of Yardrat, meaning you have to learn the technique from them and they may not be willing to teach the God of Destruction. The last thing they would want is to make Beerus faster in his planet destroying and Beerus may not have the patience to learn. Also, Whis doesn't fly using a special technique. He's just flying at his maximum speed. He's just that fast naturally.
    • There's also the fact that, compared to Whis's speed, the Instant Transmission is inefficient. Beerus would need to search for the ki signal of an entity he is looking for, focus, then warp there. And that's just assuming what he is looking for is a ki sinature. Whis is able to locate much more at a faster rate with his staff, and Beerus can just hop on and let Whis carry him there.

Late realization of Hit

• When Frost tries to leave the tournament and is attacked by Hit, why is he so surprised to see him, even asking if Hit was hired by Champa or someone else to kill him? The two were together with the other three universe 6 fighters for a very long time. He had to have noticed Hit during that time. The five of them were together for the majority of the time, so if Hit was really that infamous, he should have noticed him before hand. He also should have known from that that Hit was competing in the tournament, and was not sent to kill him.
  • He was surprised to see Hit at that location, not period as he had been sitting with him for some time. Additionally competing in the tournament and being there to kill Frost, or at least able to collect a pay check for it, are not mutually exclusive. As for why Hit wouldn't have killed him earlier is somewhat obvious. Champa wouldn't have let him. Remember this tournament is a proxy battle for Beerus and Champa because it's too dangerous for them to actually fight. Killing one of his five warriors without permission would be suicide.
  • Or, a simpler explanation would be that it was only at that moment that Frost recognized this cloaked, bald alien as the legendary assassin, "The Flawless Hit." Remember that the mob boss from the recent Episode 71 didn't realize he was face-to-face with THE Hit until Hit flat-out told him his name, so it's not so farfetched to assume that Frost had overlooked Hit and didn't figure out who he was until he tried to steal the inter-universal travel cube.

Time-skip merits

• Why is Hit's ability impressive as it is so massively oversold? He has the amazing ability to leap forward in time .1 seconds which combined with his incredible speed makes his attacks difficult to predict. As far as we can tell Guldo could do the exact same thing only he could maintain it for as long as he could hold his breath. It's never a good idea to time Dragonball and assume a 1:1 ratio to real time but we know it was longer than .1 seconds.
  • Ability-wise, Guldo's time freezing power is vastly superior to Hit's since he can stop time for as long as he can hold his breath. The problem with Guldo is that he was also massively weak and had no endurance. He literally ran out of energy just fighting Gohan and Krillin for a few minutes. He also had problems perceiving Super-Speed given that he wasted precious seconds just finding Gohan and Krillin after they moved. So while Hit's ability is inferior, since he is a trained fighter who uses his power to its fullest, his time stopping ability comes off as better than Guldo's. And unlike Guldo, Hit seems to be able to spam his ability as much as he wants without losing stamina, while Guldo had to catch his breath between stopping time. Also keep in mind that Hit is only the third Time Master in the entire series, so the ability to manipulate time is extremely rare to the point that Whis is surprise that someone other than him even has that kind of power even to a limited extent.
  • And now it's become harder to oversell completely, when he increases the amount of time he can freeze during his fight with Goku, several times.
    • And then as of Episode 71, Hit can actually hold a conversation with his target in stopped time.
  • It's less to do with the power itself, and more to do with the fact that Hit can take a comparatively unimpressive power and absolutely WRECK targets with skilled application and raw physicality.

Mistaken relationship

• Why does Bulma mistake the Galactic King for Jaco's girlfriend? She knows how she looks, as Jaco brought a picture of her to Earth (and even if Bulma never saw it, Tights did and "Jaco's girlfriend looks like him but taller" is what they'd tell each other).
  • If you're talking about the picture near the end of Jaco the Galactic Patrolman that took place literally decades ago. It isn't hard to believe that he went through several girlfriends since then.
    • Jaco also mentioned that he split with his girlfriend earlier in this arc. (She broke up with him)

Rule-suspension at the last minute

• Why did Goku really ask Beerus to suspend the rules? Did he honestly expect to win with the few moments of Kaioken left, or was he deliberately trying to get Beerus and Champa to argue just to screw with them?
  • Considering Goku and Hit gave Champa a Death Glare for calling them pawns, screwing with them isn't too out of the question. But even if he wasn't, Goku is always excited for a good fight, the chance to test his limits and/or others' limits... and when he's like that, concern for his own well-being tends to fall on the wayside. Just like against Cell, he probably knew he couldn't actually win against Hit with his combo about to stall, but like that's gonna stop him from trying.
  • Also, when Hit asked Goku if he wasn't afraid to die, Goku said that it wasn't that. He has no intentions of letting Hit touch him again, which tells the audience that he had a plan to bypass Hit's time stop. If he didn't, he would have simply given up like he did in the Cell Games and called Hit the better fighter, but since Beerus and Champa wasted his precious time with their usual bickering (which wasn't ending anytime soon), he lost his opportunity, so he said 'screw it'. To add to this, in Episode 41, he asked Hit if he couldn't wait for the next tournament he can come to his house and they can settle the score in three days. When Hit didn't answer, Goku changed it to tomorrow. If he was certain that he couldn't beat Hit, he wouldn't have asked for a rematch the next day.

Sensing Pan

• Masako X brought up a really good point in his review of Episode 43: when looking for Pan, why couldn't Goku and Piccolo simply sense her? As revealed, she has ki ability and we know she's 3/4 Saiyan so... why couldn't they sense her? Would she need extensive training before her ki was powerful enough for them to actually sense?
  • Low ki is more difficult to sense, but the general reason is simple: they don't know Pan can use ki, and therefore didn't think to sense for it since she has none yet (or so they think). Plus when they search for ki, they generally have to concentrate, rather than it constantly being on.
    • They can feel a strong ki even if they're not concentrating, like when Goku felt Raditz for the first time. Although you point still stands since Pan, although powerful, may not be powerful enough to set off Piccolo and Goten's ki sense. Goku also can't feel Pan because he's sick and he has one of the best ki sense in the series.
  • Pan is quarter Saiyan, not three quarters Saiyan unless something has been released about Mr. Satan and Videl recently. Her power level probably isn't high enough to be randomly sensed at a distance. That takes Frieza's level power. Goku and Piccolo didn't notice Raditz until he was on top of them. Additionally given the reactions from Gohan and Vegeta to Goten and Trunks respectively, apparently even a Super Saiyan isn't strong enough to just set off alarms.

Pan flying

• How can Pan fly? We know from Goten and Videl specifically that flight is not a matter of raw power. Gohan and Goten were born more powerful than Videl is currently, and Goten went SUPER before he could fly. Additionally Videl and Goten learned to fly at the same time and jokes aside at roughly the same pace. Goten got it in a few hours, she got it in what looks like a few days. Compared to Goku who took months and even after the time skip between DB and DBZ, he was still more comfortable on the Nimbus and fighting on the ground than flying.
  • The answer to that probably lays in the whole genetics angle; similar to how Gohan had an 'easier' time going SSJ, and Goten had it down pat compared to their father, Pan probably had similar. Gohan learned how to over his six months training to survive (it seems) a long time ago, whereas Videl got it in a few days... combine the two, and it is sorta-conceivable that she's got the ability to do so unconsciously off the bat. Consciously though is gonna take a little awhile, on account of her being a baby, but she has used ki to fly at the age of 4 (at the end of Z), so that's the latest.
    • Despite it happening off camera Piccolo presumably taught Gohan to fly at the same time he taught him the Masenko Beam.
  • Also, Gohan notes how odd it was that Goten could become a Super Saiyan, but couldn't fly. As he puts it, 'it likes being able to run before you can even crawl'. So flying is easier than become a Super Saiyan. We also don't know when Goku, or anyone else from the original cast, learned to fly. As far as know, Goku leaned it within a week of training with Kami and simply decided to rarely use it since the entire original cast are more ground fighters, something Goku himself notes when fighting Frieza and asked to fight on the ground.
  • It is foreshadowed that Pan has an affection for the sky and flying, and Goku expresses sorrow that he can't fly her around. Given that she observes people flying every day, she might have just figured it out the same way most people learn how to walk. Babies naturally learn quicker after all.
  • Gohan also had similar power surges that allowed him to fly temporarily when he was 5 years old, as was shown in the fight against Raditz. It's a weird thing, but far from new.

Grandpa Gohan

• Has Grandpa Gohan been mentioned at all in Super?
  • Nope. Goku's reunion with him waaaay back in Dragonball was the last we ever saw and heard of him again. Although maybe there was a flashback in a filler episode in Dragon Ball Z, in the middle of the Cell Saga, where we learn where Gohan got his name.
  • At least in the original DBZ, there were three flashbacks of him, but little more (Kai did mention him when Goku saw Vegeta's Great Ape form, as a carryover). There was also one flashback of him at the end of GT, but with it's status as more of a side-story now, likely doesn't count. So no, he hasn't been mentioned in Super yet, but it is still ongoing with the Future Trunks saga, and the promise of a Multiverse Tournament at some point; he might get another mention.
  • How is that a Headscratchers? Grandpa Gohan has been dead for decades, and has lost almost all relevance he had as a character, other than being an element of Goku's backstory, and the reason behind his son's name.
  • At the time this troper hadn't heard much about the new arc, other than rumors time travel was going to happen so I didn't know what was going to happen amd thought it might be like Xenoverse, where they go back in time to the past and meet past characters, I thought Grandpa Gohan might be one of them, which led me to ask the question about Grandpa Gohan.

Goten and Trunks' strength

• How weak are Goten and Trunks supposed to be? In the Buu Saga SSJ3 Gotenks was roughly on par with Super Buu, and Vegeta was clearly weaker than Majin Buu. By the end of the fight with Copy Vegeta we know he was in base form since going SSJ would presumably turn his hair gold the way SSJ Blue turned his hair blue. So now base Vegeta is so much stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks that he can fight casually? Dragon Ball has always had some discrepancies with power levels but this goes right past "how did you get so strong" garbage that always happens in DBZ and straight into the stated rules would suggest this isn't even possible.
  • It's the same as SSJ3 Goku vs Beerus: the latter didn't even need 10% power to deal with the form, and even that handled Goku with extreme ease. Post Resurrection 'F', Goku and Vegeta have become Saiyan Beyond Gods (ie their current base forms), which obviously have the strength of gods. The full capacity of their power is SSGSS - at least as strong as SSJG, if not more - but even their lowest power is above SSJ3 (Fused or otherwise) or Gohan's Ultimate state. Goten and Trunks probably haven't lost power, so much in that they're overshadowed by their parents now.
  • Also to note, Goku was able to fight Beerus when he was pretending to be Monaka in his base form and got several good hits in. Beerus also overdid it while fighting since both Goku and he nearly blew up the planet during their sparring session. At the start of the series, Super Saiyan 3 Goku couldn't even touch Beerus who wasn't even trying and Goku went down in two attacks, a finger flip and a shoulder pressed. After Goku absorbed the power of Super Saiyan God, he was able to fight Beerus as a regular Super Saiyan and stop Beerus' final attack in his base form by punching it. Goku and Vegeta had also been training with Whis for over a year and had an additional three years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber to prepare for the tournament. Goku's base form is way ahead of any level seen in the Buu Saga.
    • As of Episode 49 Goku in SSJ2 was being pushed back by Future Trunks. He didn't look like he was at any risk of losing before he went SSJ3 but we have a pretty good idea of how strong Future Trunks should be. A little stronger than Perfect Cell but presumably weaker than Majin Buu since he specifically avoided that battle. Which should put him a below SSJ3 Gotenks but given that Copy Vegeta didn't even need to go super to defeat Gotenks at all either Future Trunks is a lot stronger than makes sense or the power levels are nearly entirely driven by the plot now. We see something similar with Vegeta vs Kyabe. A Saiyan who hasn't even unlocked SSJ is roughly on par with Vegeta both before and after transforming.
    • It's not inconsistent; there are simply two scales of power, different from each other yet equally capable of reaching the same heights and power levels. Normal, where ki can be felt, and godly, which can't be. Majin Buu was the former, yet he was stronger than the Kaioshin, who are gods on the lower scale. Frieza's Golden Form was the former, yet it could go toe-to-toe with SSGSS Goku until he lost all stamina. The trend continues with the U6 fighters, as Kyabe fought evenly with Saiyan-Beyond-God Vegeta, meaning they had similar power levels; nothing less. Being evenly matched at Super Saiyan was a natural extension, as was SSGSS massively overshadowing Kyabe since he didn't have godly power enhancing him. Hit tanked attacks from SSJB Kaioken despite no godly power either, showing he's just that naturally strong. Goku and Vegeta with godly training/power combined with previous base powers have risen far above SSJ3's natural power; Goten and Trunks have 'just' that form in their Fusion, with their base power (possibly) not stronger at all since the Buu Saga, and zero godly power to help. It's similar in Future Trunk's case, he's still just at SSJ2 combined with his previous base power (puts him overall underneath Gotenks at SSJ3 thus far) - even if he and Goku weren't friendly sparring, he couldn't truly harm Goku at Super Saiyan 2, 3, or period, due to the former's godly power underneath. Plus Goku being pushed back is just to let him see what Trunks can do; it's common for him. The power levels hold, more-or-less imo.

Gap between Goku and Vegeta

• Why are Goku and Vegeta pretending they are on par with each other right now? Unless Vegeta learned the Kaioken at some point the gulf between those two is vast at this point.
  • That's just the thing though; Goku can't use his 'new' Kaioken anytime he wants to, because even back in the Saiyan Saga, its usage threatened heavy fatigue on his body that ultimately put him in the hospital (though Great Ape Vegeta 'helped' in that regard). Without it, they're still basically on par with each other, more-or-less. Goku is way ahead if he uses the technique, true, but it's not as simple to use as the Kamehameha.
  • During the match with Hit, Goku outright says that the Kaioken is an incomplete technique with a 90% failure rate. There is also a chance of him dying if he messes up. So the Kaioken is, at this moment, a last resort technique. Also, Goku just recovered from an illness that was directly caused by him using the Kaioken, so he wouldn't be in any hurry to use it again. Plus, Goku was confident that he can beat Copy-Vegeta without it.

Mai's age

• If the Future Trunks Saga is set in Future Trunks' timeline, how come the Mai we see and she only looks as old as he is? She was already an adult back in Dragonball, shouldn't she be a lot older? Couldn't be turned into a kid and reaged like Present Mai because The Dragonballs disappeared forever when Piccolo died fighting the Androids in that timeline.
  • Most likely, Pilaf and his gang made their wish for youth before Kami died. It would make sense since Pilaf and the others did not know that Shenron could grant two more wishes. This shows that they must have gotten the Dragon Balls before Denda upgraded them. As far as we know, it could have been the last wish Shenron granted in Trunks' time. Now, how far did Shenron did age them is the real question, since Pilaf and the others look six or eight in the Battle of Gods Saga. Then again, they could be Older Than They Look given how Trunks, Goten, and Marron look exactly the same as they did in the Buu Saga despite several years passing.
    • All evidence points to the Pilaf gang (or Mai in particular) being around Trunks's age. If Piccolo died soon after the Androids appeared, this would mean the wish turned them back into babies, or toddlers at the most. Yeah, the timeline is sort of screwed there.
    • It really isn't. Knowing Pilaf, he would word the wish in such a way that would reduced them to babies. As for how they survive as babies, well how did the survive being thrown out of a plane by King Piccolo. Pilaf's gang runs on toon physics since they were originally gag characters.
  • They're not even the biggest examples, which would be Mr. and Mrs. Brief, who haven't really changed at all from DB to DB: Super, even though the former looks the part somewhat. This even includes their cat, Scratch - adding up the years, give-or-take, both versions must be around 25-30 years old, yet Future Scratch plays like his younger self as seen in Episode 47.
  • Here's a thought: They gathered the dragon balls sometime before the Cell saga and wished for eternal youth; the Dragon turned them into children and they've stayed that way ever since. In the Future Trunks timeline, after Piccolo died and the dragon balls became inert, the power maintaining their youth ended and they started to age normally, allowing Mai to become a young woman.
    • Nothing in the series implies previous wishes are unmade when the dragon balls cease to function. If that was the case, a lot of people would need to drop dead every time the Dragon Balls disappear.
    • Besides that's really not necessary. If Pilaf's wish for youth turned Mai back into a five year old she would only be a little older (physically) than Trunks. And while it's a bit squicky in the current timeline, in the future it's a lot more understandable. There she's a forty or fifty year old woman stuck in the body of a twenty something. Additionally between the Androids and Black it's stated that it's pretty slim pickings even if you don't think forty year olds and twenty year olds can date.
  • While the anime has definitely danced around the question about Future Mai, the Super manga finally gives the audience something to chew on: it turns out that the Pilaf Gang DID wish for youth, and they WERE turned into babies. It was literally the last wish Shenron ever granted, as Piccolo Jr. was killed barely minutes after it happened. How the Pilaf Gang managed to survive as babies is another thing entirely, but it's shown that they retained their adult memories, so that could have helped.
    • Even taking the manga's explanation into account, Mai still looks too young. Trunks was born just before the Z fighters were killed by 17 and 18, and he was 17 when he was first introduced. After that, three years passed until the events of the Cell saga. Then there were 7 years for the Buu saga, 2 for Yo! Son Goku And His Friends Return, another two for Battle Of Gods, 1 for Revival F, and 1 for the Universe 6 Saga. As the timelines have been shown to run together concurrently, Mai should be 33, yet she looks to be in her early twentys.
    • Yo! Son Goku isn't canon. It was replaced by Super's version of Bo G which takes place 6 months after Buu. Plus Tarble hasn't been mentioned at all.
    • This is actually making a lot of assumptions about the timeline, doubly so when you include a special that Super hasn't even remotely acknowledged (Yo! Son Goku), unlike Jaco's saga. Plus if you take away the years that Trunks spent in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber, wouldn't this mean that Mai is the same physical age as Trunks (mid-twenties). And finally, this is the same series where Bulma's mom has yet to show any visible signs of aging, so Mai looking so young isn't so odd at all.

Zen'o vs Zarama

• Who is stronger: Zen'o or Zarama? The former is said to be omnipotent and able to destroy all of reality at a whim, whereas the latter created the Super Dragon Balls that, we're told, can grant any wish with no restrictions. I realize this is a sort of "could God make a rock He can't lift" question, but if someone gathered the Super Dragon Balls and wished for the destruction of Zen'o, what would happen?
  • Zen'o. Zarama is a god dragon of a universe pair, Zen'o is a god of the entire multiverse. Unless it's an elected position, Zen'o would, almost by necessity, need to be far stronger than any being in the other universes.
  • Yet Whis has also said Zen'O 'isn't a fighter'. If that's true by DBZ standards, and his only power is in the ability to destroy anything, but doesn't have physical prowess (of any kind) to back it up... Super Shenron might be able to destroy him, since it would take physical power above the dragon's to null said wish.
  • The point of Whis' statement wasn't that Zen'o had some weakness but rather the exact opposite, his power would be measured on such a ludicrous scale that the concept of him "fighting" anything in the multiverse doesn't even make sense. Imagine you come upon a still pool of water and need to disturb the surface to claim "victory" over it, that would be as easy as dipping a finger in or even just blowing in its general direction with enough force. You'd have no need to learn and master fighting techniques to disturb the water because just about anything you do can effortlessly complete the task. That's essentially how trivial it appears to be for Zen'o to destroy (or create, assuming he is the source of the universes in the first place) entire realities.

Vegeta talking down Future Trunks

• I get why Trunks who worships his father said nothing, and Goku is just too polite but why did Bulma let Vegeta get away with talking down to Trunks. To put this in perspective one of them ran to get help (twice) from superior foes and notably Vegeta gave him zero shit last time. The other served the being who exterminated his race for years.
  • As Bulma herself said, he was misunderstanding. From what Vegeta thought, Trunks ran before he gave the fight his all and/or during the conflict, which he doesn't look kindly upon, when in actuality Trunks gave that and more. Plus, it's Vegeta; he doesn't sugercoat his opinions, even to those he cares about.
  • Exactly. This may very well be how Vegeta actually encourages the people he cares about: by giving them shit for running away/not giving their all in a fight. He did the same thing to Gohan all the way back in the Buu saga when the latter did a shoddy job fighting Dabura. Indeed, during Future!Trunks and Goku's sparring match, he notably smiles when Future!Trunks begins pushing Goku back. It's not that he doesn't care, he just doesn't want his loved ones to look weak and this is his way of saying, “Get your act together!” The fact that this was his son made it all the more personal to him.

Future Trunks' timeline origins

• Where the hell does Future Trunks even come from? It was established way back in DBZ that Trunks doesn't actually come from the future, he comes from an alternate universe that was about sixteen years farther along than us. A major plot point was that killing our androids wouldn't retroactively destroy his or anything like that. Trunk's future and Cell's for that matter will never come to be, Goku didn't die of the heart virus and the androids never really ran amok. With alternate dimensions effectively shot down now where does that even leave Trunks?
  • It's not an alternate universe, but an alternate timeline. How that fits into the multiverse they're starting to build for Dragon Ball will probably be answered during this arc.
  • As stated, they're alternate timelines (running parallel to each other, more-or-less). At least thus far, there are four: the one we're familiar with + has all the plots, the one Future Trunks comes from, a third timeline where Cell killed Trunks from a fourth timeline we know little about (and stole his time machine), who then came to the first timeline to find the Androids, affecting even more changes in addition to Future Trunk's intervention.
  • This problem is further complicated by the fact that Future Zamasu and thus Black should never had any reason to go the future Timeline since THAT Zamasu should have never met Goku. Just like that Supreme Kai and everybody post Cell Saga. Unless, and here's a terrifying though, there is a Black Corps made up of the Zamasus of each Time Line uniting.
    • Again, this is a plothole that was resolved in the manga version of the arc, where Goku Black explicitly states that he's been traveling between timelines and specifically chose Future Trunks's timeline because the resident Gods, the Supreme Kai Shin and God of Destruction Beerus, had recently died.
    • It was never a plot hole since the anime simply never told us why Black is in Future Trunks' timeline since the story is still ongoing. From the way things are presented, Future Zamasu is a native of that timeline, while Black isn't.
    • In the anime, it is possible Black chose Future Trunks's timeline because of his meddling with time, possibly by asking Zuno or Gowasu for more information about the green time rings. Now, why he didn't pick other timelines such as the one Cell comes from, is left unanswered in the anime, unless it's to brag to Future Trunks that he's an Unwitting Instigator of Doom - the whole reason Black could even exist is that Trunks gave Goku his heart medicine, saved his life and let him get strong enough to challenge Zamasu, something Black gladly points out at one point.

Non-utilization of Majin Buu

• What is Super's problem with utilizing Majin Buu? Aside from Battle of Gods, which showed Buu being Worfed by Beerus, just about every arc that could have used the now arguably-heroic Majin Buu to raise the stakes or help out in some way. Ressurection F? Buu slept through it. Universe 6 Tournament? Buu slept through it and/outright failed the exam [Anime/Manga respectively]. Is Buu just that overpowered that the show has to find ways to keep him out of the fray?
  • As far as overpowered, hardly; Fat!Majin Buu is actually the weakest of his forms power-wise, and Goku said that if he'd gone full-out-as-a-SSJ3 when they first fought, he would've killed him. Considering SSJ3 (normal or Fused) is quite below the godly level of opponents in this series, Buu might be at/near Piccolo's new level (give-or-take) at best, or he might not be stronger at all at worst; either way he's quite behind.
    • That still raises the question on why Majin Buu specifically is kept out of the fight; Goku picked Buu for the tournament because, although he noted he was weakened from before, he was still pretty powerful. Majin Buu can still regenerate big time, still use the candy beam, still manipulate his body, and possibly still absorb enemies [we haven't seen Fat Buu display that ability, but absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence.] I would usually step back and chalk it up to Rule of Funny, the fact being that Buu's ability to miss out on these big events is played for laughs, but I am legitimately curious as to why they choose Buu to receive the short end of the stick.
    • Well, it might be Rule of Funny, or it might be some bias from Toriyama or one of Super's animating staff; we don't know yet. Still, DB has had similar incidents: Toriyama literally forgot about Launch during the original DBZ run, with that and other reasons leading to her lack of further re-appearances.
    • Him forgetting Launch is a myth. He never forgot her, he just wrote her out of the story by saying she was chasing Tien. When he did want to include her again for the Spirit Bomb, he forgot how to draw her. Also, Buu was most likely left of Resurrection 'F', because he does have a broken power set. His candy beam alone would have destroyed Frieza's army and maybe taken out Frieza himself if he was too lazy to dodged. As for the U6 tournament, Buu would have been a threat because of his regeneration and unusual body. However, his candy beam probably wouldn't be allowed, can be dodged, and can even be blown back at him if the person is powerful enough (like Evil Buu). He also doesn't absorb people because doing so changes his personalty, which is how Kid Buu became Fat Buu to begin with. But him not being included in the tournament probably was just a gag by Toriyama, since him flunking the test is in both the manga and anime.
    • If it's a myth, why's it listed in Launch's trivia page on the DB wikia? If it's completely inaccurate, someone knowledgeable should've edited it out long ago... but instead it's there like it's semi-common knowledge (and has been for awhile, possibly even years, going by Talk + History on her page).
    • DB Wikia is infamous for its misinformation. People have tried to edit it over the years with the proper information, but it is often changed back by ill-informed fans. A better site for accurate Dragon Ball information would be Kanzenshuu or even the forums on this site.
    • Actually, the DB wiki is very informative. It is very accurate. People like you just think it's inaccurate.
    • Actually, there are tons of info on DB wiki that is completely erroneous. DB wiki isn't completely full of misinformation, but Kanzenshuu is a far more credible source.
  • Buu is, quite honestly, a boring character for a "hero". His ability to No-Sell almost anything is absolutely fearsome on a villain, but breaks all drama on a hero (same reason Android 18, with her "infinite energy", often gets sidelined). His absorption ability is broken and a bit too morally questionable for a character the audience is supposed to root for.
  • Also, Buu's personality doesn't lend itself very well to conflict. Goku and the others have all someone and something they care about and they are interested in getting stronger and having their abilities grow, while Buu only cares about himself and Satan (but that one's already been used), and has no interest in any kind of personal growth, there's nothing interesting in seeing him fight. Also, unless you kill him (and that wasn't allowed in the torunament), the way to defeat him is essentialy the same used on Botaru, so it wouldn't be even interesting as an opponent.
    • In the case of Buu being 'boring', there is still potential to play his durability for laughs, like the filler when he was trying to blend into society and earned money when a guy tried to fight him and it didn't work at all. Making him an anti-hero at best would suit him. Sure, he might not have to get things done necessarily for the plot. Plus, to Buu's credit in Super, he did keep getting up to try to fight Beerus so he definitely has the determination. Get him training for the sake of a selfish goal like 'If I get stronger, I can get more candy.' or something, and he's dead set. Plus, he isn't entirely selfish, given his motivation for the tournament was getting a wish for Mr. Satan.
  • 18's energy may be infinitely-generated, but it's still only as much as her generator can produce - ie the level above regular SSJ, yet below the USSJ forms, much less any levels above that. Barring any potential upgrades, if possible, that's as strong as she can be. And there's also the fact that Buu isn't that interested in fighting overall too; would much rather eat and take a nap.
    • There doesn't seem to be any reason to believe the androids cannot train just like everybody else to increase their strength. Remember 18 is not actually a robot, she's sufficiently human to give birth which means either Dr. Gero was very particular about what parts he left human for no good reason or she's more human than not. She likely doesn't train, we know nothing about her past but she probably never cared about being strong to begin with. And she's still one of the strongest beings currently in existence.
    • 18 would still be one hell of an asset in the fight against Freeza's forces (the only point in Super where any non-Saiyan protagonists were any relevant, really). Even Kame could hold his own, the issue there was less about sheer power and more about stamina (until Tagoma and Freeza joined the fight, anyway).
    • Of course we know she's one of the stronger beings in existence; not joining the fight doesn't change that, as well as not being a temporary asset. As for her power, how exactly does her human power mix with her energy generator? Or does it even mix at all?
  • Toriyama confirmed that Androids 17 and 18 can get stronger from training since they're both humans, just modified. Just like how Android 18 can give birth. Also, 18 didn't fight against Frieza because Krillin wanted her to stay with Marron and she honored his wish. Whether you agree with the decision is another matter. Finally, 18 isn't a Blood Knight. She doesn't fight for fun. She only fights for money or if it's to her benefit.

Future Trunks' hair color

• Since no one else has mentioned it...why is Future Trunks' hair blue now? Especially since Present Day Trunks' hair is still light purple.
  • It seems to just be a very odd choice. It's not just present day Trunk's hair is still light purple, during the flashbacks Future Trunk's hair is blue. It has been pointed out that in promotional art going back as far as the 90's Trunk's hair has randomly jumped around and Bulma's hair was originally purple in the manga. Though my best guess is this is some new Trunks who happened to have a similar adventure.
  • Bulma says his hair is blue before she even sees him (she asks kid Trunks if the person inside the time machine is a young man with blue hair, clearly expecting the person to be future Trunks), so it's clearly supposed to be a retcon, even if kid Trunks and the flashbacks retain the original colour. As for why they retconned it, it's probably so he has the same hair colour as Bulma, which was always supposed to be the case (with both having purple hair in the manga).
  • That still doesn't explain why young Trunks has purple hair and Future Trunks has blue hair since they are basically supposed to be the same person.
  • Because Toriyama drew Future Trunks with blue hair and Toei decided not to change it. It's really as simple as that.
    • That's not really true. What happened and this also happened with Nappa and Vegeta in their earliest appearances in the anime and they simply retconned it was the manga in in black and white. So Toei sometimes had to guess at the colors of things and they went with purple for Trunks' hair before the next colored edition came out. By that point they didn't see the point in changing it and just let it ride. What's hilarious as mentioned above is that Kid Trunks and Flashback Trunks both maintain their purple hair instead of quietly retconning it all to what it should be, or instead just accepting that anime Trunks' hair is purple because Toei got it wrong... but it's been twenty years; you'd think they'd admit it.
    • Where is your proof that Trunks always meant to have blue hair? All the manga art from the original series depicts him with purple hair. Only with Super did Toriyama start drawing him with blue hair.
  • Perhaps it's just a result of aging. People with blonde, ginger and brown hair generally have lighter hair color in their childhood before it darkens as they grow. Granted, Trunks' hair color isn't any of those but since natural purple/blue hair doesn't occur in real life anyway, it probably just works like that in-universe. As for why Trunks' hair has suddenly decided to darken well after it should've already? Chalk it up to Saiyan aging being slower than human aging. Even Goku took until he was 18 years old before he actually looked his age.

Attacking while in Time-Skip

• Something that's bugged this Troper since he saw it. So Goku was able to defend against Hit's Time-Skip by predicting where Hit was going to attack. My question is, why is Hit only throwing out one attack? Hit should be about even with Goku in speed, and at that level of speed, Hit should be able to throw out dozens, if not hundreds of attacks in the time limit imposed by his Time Leap. Why is he only throwing one, easily predictable attack?
  • Probably because, until his fight with Goku, Hit never had anyone able to challenge him - his Time-Skip plus his vital-spot attacks quickly put down any opponent he went up against, and no doubt he became a little used to opponents not getting up from single blows (Vegeta breaking that streak surprised him). In addition, Hit asked several times about the tournament's no-kill rule, so no doubt he was at least partially trying not to damage his opponents too badly, thinking some couldn't take dozen's/hundreds of punches in addition to the above. Plus at the start, Hit's Time-Skip was only 0.1 seconds long - he may be super fast, but that's still not a lot of time to throw numerous punches; it took the upgrade to 0.5 seconds before he had enough to give out a hundred punches in a single session.
    • While 0.1 seconds may not be very much time to the average human, even as early as Dragon Ball, guys like Roshi (who are at the very LEAST, thousands of times slower than Hit or Goku) were catching bullets out of the air. By this point in the series, someone like Hit should be hundreds of times the speed of sound at a SLOW estimate (even ignoring the many Tropers on this page that would believe DBS characters to be Faster-Than-Light, which they probably are). At that level of speed, covering a distance that's effectively nothing more than the length of your arm, multiple times in 0.1 seconds, should be a paltry task. With that said, I can get behind the idea that he wasn't used to people dealing with just the "one hit", his whole life and so he got lazy with using it, and possibly even spent the fight wearing the rust off of skills he hadn't had to use in years thanks to the Time Leap.

Calling a Saiyan a 'human'

• In Episode 53 Zamasu is expressing his displeasure with humans and repeatedly calls Goku a human even after being told specifically that he's a Saiyan who happened to live on Earth. The entire rest of the conversation however sounds like a translation error or poor choice or words using "human" where the proper term is "mortal" or "non-God" or whatever Kaios consider everybody else in the universe.
  • This isn't the first time this has happened though, and as mentioned in another part of the Super page "ningen" (what we would normally translate as "person") is used as a catch-all term for "non-God", even way back during the Buu Saga. It's just one of those cases where there's no direct word counterpart in English.
  • Basically it's a poor translation choice. A better word in this context would have been "mortal".

Planetary devastation a big deal?

• Why does the destruction of Earth by Frieza seem like a big problem this time? And they even needed to rewind time to fix it. Last time Earth was destroyed by Buu, they restored Earth by using a wish from Namek's Dragon Balls. Perhaps I missed something because I'm not actually watching the series.
  • They could've used the Namekian Dragon Balls, but even if they were instantly ready when they got to Namek via Goku's Instant Transmission (unlikely), Frieza would still be nearby in space when Earth was revived (gloating over it no doubt), and he'd blow it up again without a second thought. Frankly, Whis's Temporal Do-Over was the easiest solution, since it not only prevented things but allowed an easy kill of Frieza in the same stroke. Not to mention, even if they can actually wish it back, the destruction of Earth itself is still 'a big deal'; same as the characters' reaction to a death, every time.
  • In short: It’s still their home, and I imagine they’d like to keep living on Earth. Secondly, the people who were brought back from Cell and Buu might not be able to be brought back this time around. People like Bulma’s parents, for example.

Universe 10 Alignment

• Does Universe 10 simply lack any good races? Taking Zamasu to whatever the closest equivalent to a Namekian would have yielded far better results than taking him to stupid dinosaur world. Hell, assuming you skipped over a two pesky wars and then stuck primarily to Industrialized Nations, you could plop down any random place in on Earth in the last century and make a far better case than the dinosaur people, who given a thousand years were still beating each other with sticks instead of swords, guns or ki. It wouldn't have made a difference to Zamasu who is probably roughly on par with Buu if not more powerful, but it seemed odd that race had learned absolutely nothing, not even how to be more efficient killers during the time lapse.
  • The thing is, they're gods, and specifically Kaioshin; to them all life is supposed to be sacred, an exercise in growing to care for them, and watching them grow faults and all - and even if they fail, it's not their job to interfere, or destroy. Zamasu doesn't feel that way at all deep down, and this is so foreign that it's signs aren't obvious to Gowasu until too late, similar to how the Kaioshin of Universe 7 were utterly dumbfounded by the fact that any mortal could've gained enough power to combat Majin Buu (who'd killed a fair number of them). And as far as the dinosaur people's development, who's to say how fast/slow their development is/was meant to be? One race might've gone from sticks to guns in a thousand years, while another wipes itself out in that time-frame, etc - evolution can go many ways, not all of them good or efficient.
    • Agreed on technological evolution, even though bows and stone spears and other tools seem to have been developed quickly. We have to assume that Gowasu chose 1000 years because that is an "average" time for them to have advance instead of ten thousand or twenty or whatever. We don't know much about him but he doesn't appear to be stupid. It is not their job to destroy, but if we look at King Kai and Supreme Kai of our worlds apparently a fair bit of interfering is acceptable if a bit unusual.
  • As to why the Babarians haven't advanced after so many thousands of years, humans were locked in hunter-gatherer lifestyles for tens of thousands of years, and many still are. And, if most of their planet is as barren as the areas we've seen, it's unlikely they have access to the resources they'd need to develop more complex societies. Which further cements the question of why Gowasu chose them as an example to Zamasu.
  • The reason why they went to that planet was because Gowasu was overseeing them after Beerus, Whis, and Goku left. He even called the Babarians a new mortal life form that he was observing. Zamasu suggested wiping them out because they were a violent race, and Gowasu took Zamasu into the future to see if they would come down in a thousand years. Gowasu wasn't taking Zamasu on a tour and showing him the 'good' mortals. He was trying to show Zamasu that mortals can grow from being violent, to growing a peaceful society, which backfired.
  • It's still a bit weird that they watched them on the present, then went 1000 years ahead, nothing changed, and yet Gowasu kind of dropped the subject, like he had made his point clear to Zamasu. It would've made more sense to keep moving forwards until the Babarians either wiped themselves out (which would kind of be a point for no-interference, I guess, things sort themselves out in a long enough time frame) or grew more peaceful.
  • He didn't drop the subject. They returned because Zamasu killed one of the inhabitants and changed their future in the process since that one individual could have been the key to the Babarians becoming more peaceful. At that point, Gowasu took Zamasu home and scolded him.
    • Gowasu is clearly bending the rules a lot to allow Zamasu that one trip, most likely using the rings for multiple time jumps, if it is actually possible, is either not allowed even for the kaioshin or allowed only to them, and so he didn't want to bend the rules even further.

Zen'o's attendants

• Why does Zen'O have attendants? In particular, the two guys who flank him and order people around unnecessarily. What possible need could he have for them?
  • Probably just because it amuses him. But we really have no gauge for what or how fast Zen'O can do his thing. Beerus and Champa are terrified of him, they also tell Goku that it's a bad habit of Saiyans to judge someone by their fighting power. It's possible Zen'O's power is so radical or unrestrained that he can't defend himself without destroying an entire plain of existence. OR it's really difficult, he certainly doesn't seem like the type to kill for lulz.
  • Why wouldn't he, however? Being able to do something doesn't mean be willing to do it, probably even him can enjoy having other people to do the actual work, plus we know he can get lonely, I figure that underling are a better company than no company.
  • To me, it doesn't seem like the attendants are really protecting Zen'O, rather, they're protecting the universes from him. It appears that pissing him off has disastrous consequences, and he looks pretty harmless, so imagine what would happen if there were no attendants to scare off anyone from approaching him.

Future Trunks power scaling

• How in the world was Trunks, in what presumably was his SSJ2 form, able to keep up with SSJ Rose Black and Future Zamasu, the former who defeated SSJ Blue Vegeta easily and the latter who was keeping up with SSJ Blue Goku? Someone mentioned that they were just humoring him, but Black seemed genuinely irritated when Trunks interfered by blocking his attack.
  • Trunks is just ignorantly powerful in this setting for no obvious reason. We know from DBZ that SSJ3 Gotenks is more powerful than a SSJ2 by a decent stretch. Gotenks SSJ3 should be superior to Trunks SSJ2. Gotenks, however, couldn't force Copy Vegeta to even go super, let alone God. Trunks on the other hand was still doing well against SSJ3 Goku. Goku probably didn't actually HAVE to transform, he was making a point but he did transform before beating Trunks. So right out the gate Trunks has shown to simply be a monster beyond rational thought here. If his SSJB/G transformation (they have enough Sayains for the ritual now) he would logically be an animal. Chalk it up to as much as people complained that DBZ had cases of Strong as They Need to Be that it's kicked up to eleven for Super.
  • Basically, "power levels are bullshit" has been taken to a new extreme in DBS, since the beginning.
  • Future Trunks didn't do well against Super Saiyan 3 Goku; he got one-shotted, and even as a Super Saiyan 2, Trunks did no damage to Goku (who was merely letting Trunks hit him to gauge his power, not fighting for real). Also, Trunks clearly took Black off-guard, which as Goku has shown with Sorbet can be fatal, and even then he did no damage. Future Zamasu spends most of his fight lecturing Trunks about how evil mortals are instead of fighting. He was also an immortal and even told Trunks to keep hitting him until he realized how futile it is. And, if you're going to quote Abridged, use the quote in the correct context. Vegeta said that after Piccolo got a huge power boast off-screen, 'to him'.
  • Also, Trunks only manages to hit Zamasu because he, being immortal, doesn't even try to defend or shield himself with ki, and survives just because Black and Zamasu are enjoying dishing out pain and lecture a bit too much and are not so focused on killing them.
  • I was actually reminded of something they said at the beginning of DBZ about human-saiyan hybrids having a lot of potential, which is realized in the Cell games when Gohan surpasses everyone. There is also something from the manga to take into account; when Trunks sparred against Goku, his SSJ2 form was considered to be as strong as Goku's SSJ3 one, and Goku ended up turning into a SSJG for a brief moment to take him out. Add to that that Trunks has been training with his father who is SSJ Blue himself, so perhaps it may not be too far-fetched that he was able to briefly keep up with Black and Zamasu. Not downright outfight them but just momentarily stay in the fight. Trunks is pretty much like Gohan would have been if he kept training and pushed his limits.
  • You can't really used the power scaling from the manga and put it into the anime. In the manga, Goku didn't absorb Super Saiyan God and it is its own transformation. Goku did absorb Super Saiyan God in the anime, which raised his power considerably to the point that he can take hits from Beerus in his base form, who two-shotted Super Saiyan 3 Goku, and is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. We also saw that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks stood no chance against Super Saiyan 3 Goku in the anime, and did nothing to Super Saiyan 2 Goku. Also, overall, Future Trunks isn't as talented as Gohan. In the Cell Games, Trunks without using the slow Ultra Super Saiyan form was only on par with Vegeta, while Gohan blew them out of the water even before he became a Super Saiyan 2.
  • We must remember a number of things. Trunks has been fighting Black for awhile, each time presumably getting a Zenkai boost - he may only have the SSJ2 transformation, but as we've seen, Vegeta did better against Beerus than Goku as SSJ3 did, just because his power was that much higher from rage (and Zenkai boost from surviving Kid Buu last saga, among other things). Meaning his power, while not enough to overpower them, is enough to catch them off-guard/keep up with them for a short time regardless of his transformation... after all, SSJ transformations are a power multiplier, not a limit on how high your power can go. Also, Zamasu and Goku Black have different reasons for using only as much power as they need, until they decide to kill, so they could still be fought at a relatively even pace. Trunks can't actually damage them, but he could still catch them off-guard before they fought seriously - and like any fighter in DBZ, when your guard is down you can be affected by anything, even rocks thrown at you. If anything, the ''real'' Headscratcher is how Trunks' sword could suddenly withstand a blow from either villain, when it was last damaged colliding with Android 18.
  • Toriyama confirmed that Saiyans don't really get huge power boosts anymore from near death experiences after becoming Super Saiyans. That is why Future Gohan could never overpower the androids despite being beating to near death several times. The same with Future Trunks, and even Vegeta after being plummeted by Android 18 and Perfect Cell. Vegeta from BOG was an extreme rage boost and BOG takes place four years after the Buu Saga, so Vegeta wouldn't get any noticeably gains from fighting Kid Buu. As for Trunks' sword, it isn't the same sword Android 18 broke.
  • Adding fuel, it turns out Future Trunks has his own hidden reserves of power, unrelated to the general rage boost, resulting in a new form. Perhaps he was unconsciously tapping into that without knowing, which while not enough to overpower them, did help keep him even for a little.

Goku Black sensing energy

• How is Black so terrible at sensing energy? He seems to have to consciously search and for several seconds (apparently Zamasu isn't any better) to find his victims. An untrained Vegeta accidentally locked in on giant fish back on Namek by comparison.
  • That ability was never really properly explained in most fighters. Goku attained it by drinking a special water, not by training, and then suddenly everyone on Earth had it. Vegeta getting it completely on his own just because he learned that the Earthlings could do it is the one that seems weird. Though I guess if Black knows the Kamehameha, he should have access to Goku's other techniques.
  • Vegeta getting it on his own isn't that weird. Once he knew the technique was something a person can do he began attempting to figure out how to do it. Over time he figured it out.
  • The Ultra Divine Water Goku drank in the King Piccolo Saga wasn't magic. It was really powerful poison. The theory, you drink it and if you can endure it, it will make you stronger if you had any hidden power. In retrospect, Goku got a really big boost from being near death since he's a Saiyan. Also, it's hinted that Goku could sense energy during the 22nd World Martial Arts Tournament since he knew Tien was much stronger than he appeared. He also 'sensed' Master Roshi die. Also, everyone on Earth didn't 'suddenly' get it. All the human characters trained with Kami at the Lookout to prepare for the Saiyans. Gohan learned it from Piccolo. Vegeta is the only one who randomly learned it. Also, Black isn't terrible sensing ki. Black and Zamasu clearly said that they had problems finding Goku because his ki was low. It's the same reason why the Z-Fighters had problems finding Cell, since he suppressed his energy.
  • When he said 'everyone on Earth', he probably did mean everyone. Unless DBZ: Kai's Buu Saga changes/removes this, people in a nearby city could suddenly sense SSJ3 Goku fighting Fat!Majin Buu, and they were normal civilians who'd probably never even heard of Ki.
  • When Goku was fighting Buu, regular people couldn't sense him. They could only see the battle thanks to Babidi's magic. That and Goku was so powerful that he literally shook the Earth.
  • Those who know how have 'always' been able to hide from energy sensing enemies. It certainly seems hiding your energy is easy enough, though like most skills there are those who are better at hiding, and those who are better at sensing.
    • We only see a few examples of hiding your energy in the way we are discussing now, which is being invisible to people looking for you, not concealing the lion's share of your power. However both techniques appear to be the same thing. You simply lower your power level by "dumping" your power. Given that Master Roshi is strong enough to be sensed from half way across the planet according to Krillin you'd have to drop your power down below 100 to successfully hide. It never comes up but presumably the downside is that you actually have a power level of less than 100 at the time and a sneak attack from from Yajirobe could kill you.
  • If you are asking based on the fact Goku Black and Future Zamasu couldn't track Goku, Vegeta and Future Trunks as they were dragged away by Mai and Yajirobe, Black said their power levels were so low due to the damage they received in the last battle that they could not be distinguished from those of the untrained humans.

Wishing all mortals dead

• Why didn't Zamasu wish for a mortal free world? If Zamasu hates mortals so much and thinks of them as mistakes, why didn't he just wish all of the mortals dead. Unlike, Shenron and Porunga (who are limited by their creators power), Zalama is stated to be omnipotent so I doubt that's beyond his power. I don't get it, wouldn't it be easier and more practical to do that than to just go around thousands of planets spending decades/centuries wiping out the population. Zamasu also seems to dislike destroying the landscape, thus he has a effortless and effective way of getting rid of the mortals without causing any damage to the environment.
  • Maybe the dragon does have some limitations, we just don't know them yet. The original Shenron was also hyped up to be able to concede any wish, until it became convenient for him not to and a ton of limitations popped up. Or maybe that just goes to show how Zamasu is not so different from the violent mortals he loathes, and deep down he wants to personally kill them (or as personally as sending your lackey to do it gets).
  • Zamasu himself hates the apparent inactivity of the gods, which means he probably wouldn't want an 'easy' solution to the problem, even if he wants them dead. Moreover, he has zero problem with personally taking care of a problem, i.e. Goku and his master; he'd probably want to personally kill all mortals himself, for satisfaction of making sure they're dead... and where's the satisfaction in just wishing them dead? At best, that's a brief one that his plan is fulfilled, but then what?
  • The real reason is because ultimately Zamasu's "Zero Mortals Plan" isn't about actually getting rid of mortals, it's about Zamasu indulging his sadism. In all likelihood if Zamazu actually succeeded at killing all the mortals in Future Trunks' timeline Zamazu would just go to another timeline or backwards in time and do it again. And again. And again. For all the justifications he spouts why Zamazu is killing people is he simply enjoys killing people.

Oblivious Zen'o?

• Where was Zen'o while Black was killing all the Kaioshin? It's pretty certain he would eventually have noticed.
  • Unless a single Zen'o rules over all timelines in addition to universes, there's a Zen'o for each timeline, who are probably different from the one we know - similar to how Androids 17 + 18 were fairly different in personality between the timelines. If Zen'o shows up before the end in some fashion, or doesn't, those in-of-themselves should be the answer.
    • The problem with this is that Zen'o should be far enough outside the Earth loop not to be effected. We don't know what precisely changed Androids 17 and 18 between the timelines but it likely had something to do with how they escaped Dr. Gero in a world where Goku was already dead and just spiraled from there.
    • Is it even possible for him to not be affected though? By-and-large, a timeline encompasses everything that's affected by, well time. Planets, galaxies, universes and the multiverse... unless Zeno's palace lies outside the flow of time, he'd likely be affected by timeline changes as well. But as far as the Androids, actually it went similarly; they were activated, killed Dr. Gero, and rampaged, with Goku dying before the fighting started.
    • Considering that Champa was going to kill the team he had assembled for the tournament between Universe 6 and 7, but Zen'o's arrival stopped him, we can assume that Zen'o is not omniscient. It's possible that Zamasu acted whenever Zen'o wasn't in the universe he destroyed - after all, once Zen'o learns about what Zamasu has done, he immediately annihilated Zamasu and the timeline at Goku's suggestion.
    • There is actually a good answer for this in the fridge. Zen'o's palace appears to be outside of the twelve universes and his main source of knowledge about current events in them would probably be the various angels and gods that come to visit. One of the first things the Zamasus did was kill off all the other gods and render the angels inert until new gods could be appointed, meaning it's actually entirely possible that Zen'o didn't know what they were doing because there was nobody left to come tell him about it. Of course this doesn't really account for the Grand Minister though, you'd think he might be more proactive in checking up on his children but perhaps he also spends most of his time just waiting around in the palace. The universes do seem to be set up as mostly self-sufficient so the latter case isn't entirely unrealistic either, they can probably go decades without requiring direct intervention from "upper management."

Number of timelines

• How many timelines are we dealing with? When Zamasu makes the wish to change bodies with Goku, Goku doesn't recognize him. Additionally his farming with Goten so it would appear that the Zamasu who made the swap did so either prior to the Beerus Arc or at the latest prior to the Frieza Arc. The point being THAT Zamasu hadn't met Goku and lost a fight yet. Unless he used the time rings to travel back in Time Ring to travel back in time to before the Universe 6/7 Tournament Arc but it doesn't seem that enough time would have passed between episode one and the Tournament Arc for the Super Dragon Balls to have been used, reset and gathered by Champa.
  • In the Android Saga, we had four more-or-less. The timeline we know very well, Future Trunk's Timeline, Cell's timeline, and a fourth vaguely-known timeline that Cell stole his Time Machine from (killing 'that' Trunks and using it to travel to #1). The latter two perhaps don't have any further significance, but the first two definitely do... so thus far we have the main timeline again (Present Zamasu atomized), another timeline where Present Zamasu achieved his goals of killing Gowasu/stealing the Time Ring (post fight-with-Goku and asking Zuno about Goku/Super Dragons Balls, but pre-atomization), and then Future Trunks' timeline with Future Zamasu. If all this is correct, that makes five timelines, which would match the Time Rings (one silver, and four green)... but it could become more if things get (more-)complicated.
  • Goku Black has met Goku. Black specifically said that he fought Goku and lost to him in a sparring match and we see a flashback of Episode 53 when Goku fought Zamasu. Goku Black is Present Zamasu who successfully killed Gawasu and took his Time Ring. The reason this happens is because a paradox has taking place since Zamasu already went to the future using the Time Ring, setting off the current events. When Beerus killed Present Zamasu, he erased the timeline that Goku Black created, however, Black was protected because of the Time Ring. As Black put it, nothing in the past can effect him. So Black is basically an entity that exists outside of time. Also, Goku has worn his farmer outfit several times since the first episode of Super. He wore it during the in-between episodes of the Resurrection 'F' Saga and in Episode 42 when he fought Beerus in that Monaka outfit. Goku always wears it when farming, the one exception being when he was harvesting his crop with Piccolo.
  • That doesn't change the fact that Goku didn't know who he was. As dumb as Goku is capable of being he should have looked at his outfit and the color of his skin (assuming he can't do the multiform technique in that body for some reason similar to the Captain Ginyu issue) and been able to figure out what happened. And probably send Goten to fetch Vegeta, Gohan or literally anybody more immediately useful than Chi Chi. He's switched bodies before and knows that people don't do that for the lulz.
  • Yet at the same time, Goku couldn't figure out the truth that he was fighting Beerus in a Monaka costume, and that the real one had fainted - sometimes he figures things out, and sometimes he doesn't. Moreover, Goku couldn't look in a mirror; all he knew was he suddenly wasn't himself, that his hands were green, etc etc... which isn't explicitly enough evidence to say he's Zamasu at that point, or thus take action based on that fact. Suddenly someone wearing his face shows up then, and he's focused upon that fact rather than their clothes, as was clear... but even if he did make the connection, he'd have made it too late before being murdered anyway.
  • Also remember, for Goku in that timeline, it has been a year since he fought Zamasu. Chances are, he's not going to remember Zamasu right off the bat. Especially since they've met only once and it was so short
  • Keep in mind that Goku can't look at his own face without a mirror. He simply noticed his body changed, that his hands are now green, and he panicked. In a world full of strange stuff, this could be caused by a ton of reasons. There was simply no way he'd figure it out immediately.
  • In short, Goku is panicking. He’s farming one moment, then he realizes his arms are green and he sounds different. A second later, someone wearing his body shows up in a strange outfit and BAM, he’s dead. He had no time to react beyond, ‘OMG WTF IS HAPPENING!?’

Mafuba/Evil Containment Wave

• If you guys remember the first Dragon Ball series, Mafuba (Evil Containment Wave) is a Dangerous Forbidden Technique that seals off whoever the user targeted in exchange for his life. There's no room for error, because one wrong move means losing your life for nothing (See Tien failing his Mafuba against Demon King Piccolo). Yet Goku practiced the Mafuba so many times without even killing himself, so what's the point of Master Roshi warning him that it's dangerous if Mafuba didn't kill off Goku?
  • To note, Tien failing against King Piccolo is only in the anime. In the manga, Tien never even gets to used the Evil Containment Wave because he breaks the rice cooker while practicing it.
  • It's stated that using it takes a lot of your life force, making it likely that you'll die afterward; it's not guaranteed. Case-in-point, when the younger Piccolo reversed it on Kami (thereby using the wave for himself), he didn't die, or show any real effects from doing so (even in Super). In addition, Goku's still fairly in his prime, and has much much stronger energy levels than he did back in DB - the energy needed to power the Evil Containment Wave might have been life-sucking back then to him (in addition to Roshi, Kami, etc), but now it's probably a pinprick, if that. However, while energy may no longer seem an issue, concentration is still the key - much like the Super Kaioken, if Goku makes a wrong move it still could kill him, which Goku knows.
  • The only people the Mafuba actually killed were Mutaito and Roshi, both very old men that didn't get even close to the power levels of Piccolo Daimaou himself, much less of the DBZ cast. Tien used it, and didn't die afterwards (though it significantly drained him, to the point he passed out), Kami wouldn't have died from it, even if it wasn't reversed on him (the whole point of him using it was to get rid of Piccolo without himself dying, if he wanted to sacrifice himself he could just literally commit suicide, and Piccolo would be gone with him). As for Goku training its use without any apparent risk, Tien also practised it before really using it, supposedly the practice is not as hard on the user as the real deal. Maybe it has something to do with the power of the being you're trying to actually seal away, if he's weaker than you, the technique is safe, if he's stronger, it gets progressively more dangerous.
  • As noted above, Tien using the Evil Containment Wave against Piccolo only happened in the anime. The only people who didn't die in the manga from using it was Kami. Piccolo technically never used the Evil Containment Wave. He only reversed it.
    • Super is in-continuity with the rest of the anime, so saying Tien didn't use it in the manga is a moot point. But even if we take the manga continuity as the canon we adhere to, Tien still trained the technique (that's how he broke the rice cooker), proving that it can be practiced without killing the user.
    • In addition, reversing the wave was Piccolo actually taking control of (and using) the Evil Containment Wave - if it were 'just' reflection, Kami would've died as soon as he got inside the jar, because it would've taken his remaining life force. Instead, Piccolo took on the burden, and thus they both lived.
    • Simple. Kami told him about it during his training on the lookout. Since Kami was still alive, he had to know about Piccolo Jr. He probably could sense Piccolo Jr.'s greater potential strength. Because of that and because Kami wanted to live, he told Goku how King Piccolo was captured.

All Dragon Balls destroyed?

• Zamasu and Black destroyed the Dragon Balls? All of them? I get destroying the Super Dragonballs, and Future Earth lacks a guardian so there are no Earth Balls, but New Namek should be floating around somewhere.
  • There are two possibilities. 1) New Namek's population was among those mortals they've destroyed prior to coming to Earth, or 2) Black and Zamasu simply don't know about the Namekian Dragon Balls (at least yet), and hence in their view, they're all gone.
  • I'm not sure if they actually said this, but I got the impression that Future Earth is the only place left in that universe with mortals still alive, since their Zero Mortal Plan is reaching completion. It would make some sense for Zamasu to save taking out Goku's home planet for last.
  • That was never said. Goku Black and Future Zamasu just said that they wiped out a bunch of species, and the Earthlings were the worst of the worst.
    • It was indeed never said out loud, but it was for sure implied. They both act like ending the Earthlings is the only thing left to complete their Zero Mortals Plan.

San Dimas Time?

• Does Dragonball work on some sort of strange San Dimas Time? Black is amazed at how much stronger Vegeta has gotten during a short period of time. Sure he is correct that Vegeta only trained for half-a-day but it's Time Travel. Vegeta and Goku could have literally trained for uninterrupted decades and still come back at the exact second they left the future.
  • They might have, but the question of if would depend upon the Time Machine; it can only store so much fuel, and it's implied the farther forward/back in time the more it takes. Moreover, time is still an issue: time moves concurrently no matter the timeline, even with the difference in years, and Trunks' life is at stake. If they chose to take that time to train for decades, Trunks would've died eventually while they did nothing else... it would've undone when they went back to the future, true, but Black and Zamasu's victory would likely have next invade the main timeline before the company could go back. Even if the portal pulls them back after a few minutes, all they'd have to do is kill Goku and Vegeta, in full-out combat or at worst, blowing up the Earth if they had to to do it - one less 'beautiful world' could be sanctioned, if it helps eliminate serious resistance like Goku and Vegeta. Not to mention, piece-by-piece they could eliminate the populations of other worlds too, fairly easily as well.
  • It is indeed San Dimas Time, and Trunks explains why the first time he goes back. Since he's using a time machine to effectively hop between two different dimensions as well as travelling through time now, he didn't mess with the "go back 17 years" settings from way back in the Cell Saga, fearing it would take him to a different timeline than the one where his friends are. So, every time they travel in time, the same time has elapsed in both timelines. Presumably the same goes for "go forward 17 years" in the trip back. That's also the reason they always go back to the future ASAP, instead of taking their time training in the safety of the past.

Goku's age

• OK, how old is Goku? A Tear Jerker entry stated that he was in his 50s, getting old — his body isn't able to take the punishment it used to when he was younger. But hold on a tick, how old is he? Seeing as Super is set a few months/a year at least after the Buu Saga, he can't be much older than he was when he died waaaay back in the Cell Saga. If anything else, I'm guessing he's in his mid-30s.
  • Mentally, he's about 43. Which means physically he's 39 since he spent a year in the Saiyan Saga dead and then spent seven years dead after the Cell Games but he had also spent a year training in the ROSAT with Gohan and three years in the ROSAT with Vegeta for the universal tournament. So, yeah he's physically 39.
  • He also spent another year at the ROSAT when he was a kid. And can we even be sure he doesn't grow older when he's dead, since he keeps his body with him? The matter of his age seems really unclear, really. Which, in the end, doesn't matter so much, since he's an alien and doesn't age like a regular human anyway.
  • (OP here) I seem to recall a scene when Goku and Vegeta are in the ROSAT, Vegeta makes mention of how he and Goku are still comparatively young to everyone else.
  • Even if he IS physically more in is prime than everyone around him, Goku is technically about 41 years old timeline wise, and about 46 counting the years he was in the ROSAT. Although if you assume that his body did not age while he was dead then his body is 37. I corrected the Tear Jerker entry, although its point that the limitations of aging may or may not kick in still stands.

Fusion ignoring pieces of clothing

• Here's a minor one, based on the preview of Episode 66. Vegito! Why did Vegeta's armor get completely ignored in the fusion, when the clothes tend to be melded.
  • Perhaps because part of it was blasted off taking Merged Zamasu's attack? As a result, Goku's clothing gi kinda 'takes over' what's available. Alternatively, simple continuity; that's basically how he appeared the last time, pre-SSJB.
  • I think that both Goku and Vegeta went back to their more "classic" looks for this arc, rather than the updated Ressurrection F clothes, specifically so they wouldn't have to design new clothes for Vegito. Maybe they just forgot that, when Vegito first appeared, Vegita wasn't using his Saiyan armour anymore.

Number of Time Rings

• In the Dragon Ball Super manga, Gowasu states that one of the time rings was created when Trunks traveled back to the past. However, considering how many times time had been altered with the machine in the series, there should be AT LEAST FIVE time rings. One for the original timeline where Goku dies, one for when Trunks gave Goku the medicine, one for when Cell returned to the past, one for when Trunks returned to fight the Androids, and lastly the one when Trunks returned to find help to fight Goku Black. Oh, and time travel apparently became restricted because Trunks created an alternate universe. Get a load of that.
  • That's not how the time machine is stated to work, though. The first time it was used, it created a new timeline, and for every subsequent use it just makes him jump back and forth between his original timeline and the timeline he created the first time around. Cell's trip possibly created a third timeline, but that's fuzzy with the timey-wimey nature of the time travel in the show.
    • Except that's demonstrably false. We know that DBZ has at least 3 (and most agree 4) timelines that existed in the Cell Arc. Let's give them letters. Timeline A is the main show, Trunks brings him the heart medicine, we find out about the androids, train, train some more beat Cell and Trunks goes back to the future. Timeline B is a Future Trunks 1's timeline. He went home after being the Androids but never went into the Hyperbolic Time chamber (because if he had he would have rocked imperfect cell with ease.) That Trunks presumably made the same 2 trips to the past as ours but died. Timeline C ins "our" Future Trunks. He did all the stuff in Timeline A. And Timeline D is ones where the Z fighters used the button (or beat the androids some other way that Trunks could replicate alone). They either never dealt with Cell or didn't deal with him until farther down the timeline The whole San Dimas Time and only one alternate universe are inconsistent with the Cell Saga. Honestly the time ring protecting Zamasu from Beerus makes even less sense in hindsight since Zamasu comes from the alternate timeline Black comes from the future so if it was going to Ret-Gone someone it logically would have been Black. I think they added it in because you have to keep the clock ticking on both ends when time travel is involved. Otherwise as asked above Goku and Vegeta could literally have trained for the rest of their lives, fought whatever battles and gone back to exactly when they left Trunks at any point and obviously that would be unacceptable to the plot. The ROSAT is enough of a hack.
    • Separate poster here. I need to double check my facts, but I think what would help solve this situation would be the solution to another question. The bigger question is, "why aren't time rings instantly created when existing time rings are used?" Obviously if time rings materialize to aid Kais in their pursuit of correcting or overseeing timelines, that would make the most sense. Further, do the the time rings give access through time in general, or are they specifically to access the area in alternate timelines in which timeline altering actions occurred? I'm going to post this question separately further on.

Changes to Potara Fusion

• Why'd they retcon the limit on to potara fusion? It's, literally, described as being a permanent fusion in Z. Now, it's just a glorified version of the fusion dance. If they wanted to have the time limit, here's how it should've gone. Either use Gogeta in place of Vegito, or have them use Gogeta first, but then have them use the potara again to fuse to Vegito. There's the fact that with that, they not only canonize Gogeta, but also make the plot points work. Plus, they'd only have to somewhat tweak the episode to make the changes work. It's an easier pill to swallow if they had just done that. I hope they explain why they did this in the future.
  • The term you're looking for is revision - remember that the 7th universe's Supreme Kais has a spotty track record of their claims. The younger said the Z-sword was indestructible amongst other things which were later demonstrably proven false, and we have no reason to believe the Elder Kai is vastly more knowledgeable than the younger one, as even he could only give a Hand Wave 'Buu is magic' explanation for why Vegito defused^note an explanation which leaves the plot-hole of how Gotenks was able to stay fused inside him so he could become Gotenks Buu, which makes sense, seeing how he the only one he has given the Potara to before was a witch with whom he (a Kai) merged, so he had no reason to believe that the fusion wasn't permanent, since his was. Now we know that any fusion has a time limit unless at least one participant is a literal god, but the Potara is still orders of magnitude more powerful.^note Remember that at Super Saiyan 3, Gotenks had five minutes at best, and we can all agree that Super Saiyan Blue is so far beyond that level that words fail to describe the difference, the fact that Vegito exists as a Super Saiyan Blue for more than a few seconds speaks volumes. There's another point against Gogeta in that canonically, Goku and Vegeta never did the fusion dance, and it was painstakingly shown that messing it up, no matter how little^note and there are a lot of ways to mess it up, means the best you can do is hope to go unnoticed and wait for the time limit to pass. With two Supreme Kais there and with a Nigh-Immortal Omnicidal Maniac Physical God bearing down on you, do you waste time practicing something which might go wrong and doom the future, or do you go with what has worked before, has been said (albeit by a 7th universe kai) to be much stronger, and is quicker to perform?
  • I think they had set-up a perfect situation to have Vegeto fight a bit, and then for the fusion to be undone and Trunks to deal the final blow. Originally, the fusion was undone because of some weirdness in the atmosphere inside Buu's body. Goku Black used his scythe to open a hole to a strange dimension. Well, have Zamasu Black open up the same hole, Vegeto go inside, and poof, fusion undone. They could use the same "the fusion is better when one of the fusees is a Kai" excuse to have Merged Zamasu not unfuse in the same conditions, and everything would wrap up much more nicely.
    • True, but the weird atmosphere / bad air causing the fusion to get undone was just Goku's and the fanbase's speculation. We never got an official reason from any of the Kais or creators until now. Besides, if that was case then why didn't Gotenks defuse the moment when he entered Buu's body like Vegito did. The idea of the Potara having a time limit came from Dragon Ball Heroes when Vegeta and Trunks Potara fuse. In the game, the Supreme Kai of Time said there's a one-hour limit for non-Kais. And this happened a while before Super. So this only came as a surprise to the Non-Japanese fan base. And again, it's not like this new change creates any contradictions. But it's understandable why the Non-Japanese DBZ fans are pissed. From their perspective, it seems like DBS pulls this information out of their asses for the sake of plot convenience to nerf Vegito.
    • For a permanent fusion, do you have to be a Kai, or can you just be a Shinjin?

Other Fusion questions

• Given the revision regarding fusions, it brings to mind a slew of new questions:
  • Since the Fusion Dance is a mortal technique mimicking the godly Potara, and the Potara has a time limit unless performed by at least one Kai, does this mean the fusion dance is permanent if a Kai participated in it?
  • How long is the recharge of the Potara? When Vegito defuses, Goku and Vegeta still has their Potara on their respective ears, yet they are obviously not pulled towards each other straight away. The Potara are obviously not one-shots as the Elder Kai's was used twice, once by him and a witch, secondly by Goku and Vegeta.
  • Why are the 7th's universe's Supreme Kais such dunces? Gowasu is clearly more knowledgeable than either of them combined, yet they're supposedly at the same level, just different universes.
    • The obvious answer is that it's a Retcon and this was just a convenient way to allow the Potaras to be used at some point down the line when things become hairy. I mean originally the downside of the Potara was that essentially Goku and Vegeta would give their lives to save the universe. Now the downside is Vegeta's pride getting bruised.
    • It's more of a Revision than a Retcon. It's not like this new limit contradicts anything. On the contrary, it actually explains a few plot holes like : "Why did Vegito defused when absorbed by Buu and not Gotenks?". And as to why are the 7th's universe's Supreme Kais didn't know about the time limit when it comes to mortals. Well, that's actually very easy to explain. Keep in mind that Supreme kai didn't even know what Potara fusion was until Old kai brought it up. And he only knew because of his past experience with fusing. And that universe 10 and 7 have completely different histories. So it's possible that the Kais in universe 10 have seen mortals using Potara fusion while the Kais in universe 7 haven't. And thus the universe 10 Kais know more about it.
    • "How long is the recharge of the Potara?" Maybe 1 hour like regular fusion or 2 hours since the recharge time is twice the length of the Fusion time.

What exactly is a Kai?

• This is probably a problem with how Japanese can be a bit slippery to translate but what precisely qualifies one as a kai? Zamasu appears to have been a kai in training, in fact, Gowasu had to be given a Potara to grant him the status of 'temporary kai' and grant him permission to time travel. Zamasu constantly uses the terms kami (God) and ningen(mortals) to describe the difference. But both Gowasu and Elder Kai prove that even Supreme Kai age and presumably eventually die, even if eventually is a long long time. They can also be killed. They don't really appear to be a single race either and if you add Beerus and Champa to the mix that begs another question. Mainly that Goku was (jokingly probably) offered the position of God of Destruction when Beerus dies/retires. At that point would a Vegito fusion become permanent?
  • 'Kai' is basically a job. Zamasu was a Kai already, and in training to be Supreme Kai. When Gowasu wanted to show him how to use the Time Rings, he had to give him one of the earrings and also announce that he was temporarily a Supreme Kai. So presumably if Gowasu wanted, he could elevate Goku and Vegeta to Supreme Kai status and let the fusion last indefinitely, but there are probably other consequences to giving that kind of promotion, especially in haste. (Plus an hour seemed like more than long enough to defeat Zamasu)
  • Kai is a post held by people of a godly race, the shinjin. Zamasu without the earrings is just a regular shinjin (presumably the same as, say, Kibito), when he puts on the earrings he becomes a Kai. Apparently being a Kai requires only that you be of the shinjin race, and put on a Potara earring.

Kai position specifications

• Continued from above Headscrather. Okay lets see if this is right. Supreme Kai dies, God of Destruction dies. God of Destruction dies, Supreme Kai dies. Exact same relationship as Piccolo and Kami used to have. Elder Kai was sealed in the Z-Sword by Beerus presumably for that exact reason, killing him equaled suicide. Since then, there has been at least one Supreme Kai who was killed by Majin Buu before current Supreme Kai. So here is the question. Is Supreme Kai actually just a stand in no different from the Stewards of Gondor who wield the authority of the King but not the blood rights, is Elder Kai just some old guy that Supreme Kai respects a great deal but is technically an advisor at this point or are there horrifyingly two Gods of Destruction floating around Universe 7.
  • Elder Kai is technically the Grand Supreme Kai, superior to all other Kais in his particular universe. Supreme Kai is only in charge of one quarter of the universe. So there's only one guy in the top spot.
  • Elder Kai is not the Grand Supreme Kai, he held the exact same post as the younger Supreme Kai, before he was stuck inside the sword. The Grand Supreme Kai was the one that looked like Fat Buu, and apparently the post never got refilled after his death.
  • It's a bit vague if destroying Beerus requires you to kill the Grand Supreme Kai, or all the Supreme Kai's. I'm personally going to assume the latter, which means you'd have to kill both to take out Beerus.
  • Elder Kai can be assumed to now be the Grand Supreme Kai. He is the senior most Kai in his universe, and Shin usually defers to him because he us an elder and outrank him, that would presumably make Elder Kai the new Grand Supreme Kai

Fusion time limit addition

• Ok, back on Potara, someone put forth in the WMG section that the time limit might've just been added after Goku & Vegeta fused to fight Buu. This would make sense, but I just wish they'd acknowledged this with Gowasu. The dialogue leads you to think it's always been there, but what if it's only been in place for a few years? It would certainly make sense. Gowasu seems to be on the same level as Supreme & Old Kai, but maybe a bit more knowledgeable due to his age. If they establish that, this would be less of a hard pill to swallow. Though, if there was to be the time limit, why is the power also tied to it? The earrings are supposed to be a more stable version of the dance at least, so that really shouldn't matter.
  • The time limit has definitely been always there. Goku asks why his previous Potara fusion wasn't permanent, and Gowasu explains. There is no indication that things ever used to be different.
  • It's possible that tying it to power is a way to prevent a purely mortal fusion from challenging the gods. To the gods, it's rather unfathomable that mortals as powerful as Goku and Vegeta exist separately, let alone fused as Vegito.

Great Saiyaman 2

• When Gohan transforms into the Great Saiyaman 1 for Pan during the Future Trunks arc, why didn't Videl transform into Great Saiyaman 2 as well?
  • Wasn't Videl being Great Saiyaman 2 filler?
  • It mostly appeared in the later non-canon movies, but it did appear at the very end of the Kid Buu Saga in Z, just before the 10-years-later bit. Moreover, Kai has kept certain bits of filler such as Bulma's encounter with Ginyu - it could've done the same with that part.
  • Videl is, on the whole, quite a bit more mature than Gohan, who still relishes the chance to ham it up and goof off. She might have simply not gone along with it because...well... it's a bit silly. Think of it as parents where one absolutely LOVES the chance to get in a costume and have fun, while the other is much more reserved

Gowasu and Elder Kai on fusion

• The fact Gowasu knows about the time limit the Potara Earrings had when two non-Kais fused, whereas the Elder Supreme Kai didn't, in spite of knowing how the fusion worked. After all, he's a Kai, so the fusion cannot be reversed... but this creates a new question: how does Gowasu know that? Did two non-Kais gain control of a pair of Potaras in the past?
  • You answered your own question. Yes, Gowasu probably saw two mortals fusing with the Potara before, or at the very least this happened once in his universe, and the knowledge was preserved.

Bodiless Zamasu

• Why did Merged Zamasu kill off the whole of humanity but keep Goku, Vegeta, Bulma, Future Mai and Future Trunks alive? Why didn't he just simply turn his beams on them from the get-go instead of just sit there in the clouds and resume doing nothing but laugh his ass off?
  • In that bodiless state, he doesn't seem to have true sentience anymore. He only destroyed everything in existence after Goku/Vegeta/Trunk's failed attack, ie an instinctive response - after that, absolutely no reaction beyond a continuous repetition of his laughter. If he had retained awareness beyond himself, he would've known they were still alive (having protected themselves), along with the arrival of Future Zen'O... but nothing changed as if little registers anymore, short of direct attacks like the multiversal buster.

Non-usage of Super Dragon Balls

• If Beerus and Whis want to help Future Trunks, why don't they use the Super Dragonballs to resurrect his timeline? They're supposed to be without limit and still exist in the Present Timeline, and they wouldn't have to deal with messing with the timestream to do it.
  • This is just a theory, but perhaps Zen'O's power is literally absolute; anything else may be omnipotent, but when facing him he has the final say. Future Zamasu wished for complete immortality and got it, this being transferred to his Fusion self despite being compromised, and it remained even as he became the multi-verse level threat he did. Future Zen'O killed Fusion Zamasu despite this same immortality, and without any effort whatsoever... and in the Present timeline, the six destroyed Universes were never recreated, either by the Gods of Creation nor the Super Dragonballs, despite having been a long time since the incident. Moreover, in destroying the multiverse Future Zen'O also destroyed the timeline's afterlife, and there are no longer any souls to bring back period... such complete destruction is perhaps beyond any God in this franchise.
  • It is also said that any set of Dragon Balls is only as strong as their creator, and thus, what the Top God of the franchise does, absolutely NOTHING can undo, not even the Super Dragon Balls.
  • As of the end of Super, it seems this question is still valid. The Super Dragon Balls undo Zen'O's actions by bringing back all the universes destroyed in the tournament, although it could be that this is only possible because that's the exact wish Zen'O was hoping the winner would make all along.

God of Destruction in Future Trunks' timeline

• Shouldn't there be at least one God of Destruction left in the Future Trunks timeline? Future Zamasu and Black say they killed all the Gods in the future, but it's implied that they're still weaker than Beerus, so the implication would be that they killed the Gods of Destruction by killing off the Supreme Kais instead of doing it directly. But, isn't Zamasu himself a Supreme Kai? So long as Future Zamasu's alive, the God of Destruction from Universe 10 should be still alive, shouldn't he?
  • The full relationship between Kaioshin and Gods of Destruction is still a bit sketchy. We know that that killing one means the death of the other, but it doesn't seem that the appearance of a new Kaioshin also makes a new God of Destruction appear spontaneously. The God of Destruction of Universe 10 presumably died with Gowasu, and another one didn't get chosen to substitute them and linked with Zamasu's life. Maybe it has something to do with Zamasu never really getting promoted to full Kaioshin. His status as one seems to be linked to wearing at least one Potara earring, after all, when this doesn't seem to be an issue with the other Kaioshin (with both of the Universe 7 ones giving their Potara earrings to Goku and Vegeta at different occasions, with no concerns about losing any sort of godly ability).
  • It's also possible the Universe 10 God is a lot weaker than Beerus, and thus someone they can naturally kill. No-one said they had to be on his level, just stronger than any mortal in their universe.

Overall power-scaling

• Power-scaling issue: Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta > Super Saiyan/Super Saiyan 2 Black > Base Black > Super Saiyan 3 Goku = Super Saiyan 2 Trunks? In the manga, Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is stated to rival Super Saiyan 3 Goku but lost fairly easily to Base Black meaning Black's base form is beyond Super Saiyan 3 tier despite this in chapter 19 Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta is shown beating around Super Saiyan or Super Saiyan 2 Black even though Goku should be as strong, if not stronger than Vegeta in equal forms.
  • The problem that everyone's having is that they're forgetting what the Super Saiyan transformation is. It's a power multiplier not a release of more power that's already possessed like Frieza's, or the addition of outside power like Cell and/or Buu's. If I remember correctly, SS1 = 50 times base, SS2 = 2 times SS1 and SS3 = 4 times SS2. The disconnect is that, since the scouters are no longer used, there are no incremental measurements of power anymore and, in Super, they don't even state the distinctions in power anymore.

Arresting Frost

• In episode 71, it's stated that Frost is still free and the space police of Universe 6 are still looking for him. um... what? Why wasn't he arrested immediately after the tournament? Magetta, Cabba, Hit, Champa, and Vados are all stronger than him, and the Cubes are the fastest things in the multiverse except for maybe Zeno, not to mention, he was still KO'd the last time we saw him, so I find it impossible for him to have escaped. If they need him for the multiversal tournament, why not just lock him up and let him out on the day that it happens so he can still compete? They are still hunting him, so clearly they plan to arrest him anyway, so why did they let him go after the tournament? If they have no problems with arresting him even if he is still needed, why didn't Cabba arrest him right after the tournament?
  • Arrest him on what authority? The gods of universe 6 don't seem to be any more active in governing the mortals as Bills and Whis are, and the other fighters are a hitman (who is possibly a wanted criminal himself), and a few warriors. Sure, they're strong enough to beat Frost, but if they just lock him up out of nowhere and then start saying he's evil, tbe people of the universe will see THEM as the bad guys. They need to prove Frost is a sham first, and that seems to be what Cabba sets out to do immediately after he comes back.
  • Even assuming they arrested him, there's the simple question of just what sort of lock-up could, you know, actually hold him. After all, he was one of the five strongest warriors chosen to represent Universe 6, something that inevitably makes him much stronger than the average jail cell.

Gods and their disappearances

• I have to ask, why were the gods so oblivious to what Zamasu's doing? I know the gods don't meddle in the affairs of people, they watch over them, but one of their own losing his shit and killing them before he goes on to kill all humans is different. I mean, no one noticed this and put a stop to him? For that matter, how did Bibidi get as far as he did with Buu?
  • This is two questions that require two answers. The obviously answer with Bibidi is that the Gods were doing everything they could including direct interference to prevent Buu's awakening and since he's apparently as old as the universe now there wasn't much else they could do. Given that his IT took him to Otherworld it's plausible that he's truly unkillable in the long term. As for why were the gods oblivious nothing in the Dragon Ball lore suggests that the gods are in anyway all knowing. Each God can probably see anywhere in their territory at will mind you. Kami and Dende can see the Earth from the Look Out, King Kai and if North Supreme Kai was alive could see the North Galaxy, Supreme Kai can probably see the entire Universe 6. That one is a bit shakey since he is technically the East Supreme Kai but he appears to have self promoted. The universes are all separate enough that the goings on in the Universe next door goes unnoticed. And we're not shown how Zamasu killed the other gods. Gowasu didn't seem hugely shocked to see Beerus and Whis. Maybe they drop in on each other frequently enough that Zamasu just offered tea to 11 other Supreme Kais as a "nice to meet you" gesture. Which took out all the Gods of Destruction and their angels and following that he just cleaned up.
    • Well, being all-knowing and watching over everyone/everything everywhere at all times goes hand in hand. That's the reason security guards have security cameras, you can't protect what you don't know is in danger. The jurisdictional separation makes sense. Even so, you'd figure the next level up above the Kais/God's of Destruction would notice since it would their job to safeguard that. Sorta like how a criminal is a problem for the state until they begin to take their criminal activities across state lines causing the FBI to step in. The second that Zamasu killed kais from two different universes, that should've set Zen-Oh or whomever's directly above the Kais off to at least look into it especially since it comes off as incredibly rare that more than one Kai of one particular universe dies that close together. In regards to Bibidi, Buu's apparently a facet of the universe and the unspoken implication is that he's either a subordinate of Beerus in some fashion or just someone that exists along the same lines as Beerus. That being said, you'd figure that one of the Kai's would notice if a force of nature in their world is affected in the way Buu was.
    • Being able to see anything on a certain area at will and being omniscient are two different things. The former is more limited, the latter is something that's always active, all the time, for every place. The gods in Dragon Ball appear to have the former ability, they don't see what they aren't specifically looking for. Zamasu was supposedly fast enough that no-one noticed anything wrong until it was too late, and Bibidi's doings probably didn't seem that dangerous until Buu was actually on the loose, so they just went below the radar. When Babidi later tried to resurrect Buu, now the gods knew to be on the lookout for that, and took action.
    • Having a certain job means you'd have the ability to perform that job. If you're tasked with watching over everyone at all times, that means you have to be able to see everyone at all times. If you can't then things like Buu and Zamasu happen. It's downright illogical.
    • Majin Buu was a universal threat, yes, but he was also restricted to Universe 7, and followed the pattern of Beerus; sleep for ages, then wake up to destroy stuff, fall asleep again. It is theorized among fans that Buu was Beerus's predecessor in the 'destroyer god' front. Buu only became evil due to, as Akira Toriyama, said; due to the evils of mankind [mortalkind to be more accurate] corrupting him. Zen'O and his attendants wouldn't really involve themselves in one universe due to what was, to their understanding, a somewhat normal occurence. As for Zamasu; Black and Zamasu planned things out rather than running wild. Heck, Gowasu's assassination wouldn't have been known or even prevented had Beerus and Whis not stepped in with Whis's time-warp. The Angels 'cease to function', or more likely, 'deactivate' when the Gods of Destruction die, which happens when Gods of Creation die. Since Zen'O has a handful of entities at his home, and he relies on the Angels to inform him about their gods' actions, it was highly likely that Zen'O and the Grand Priest didn't even know what was going on with Zamasu.
  • Supposedly Zamasu alone is stronger than literally every other Kai/Supreme Kai put together, and that was *before* he wished for immortality & created Black. So that's why the other kais didn't stop him; they couldn't. Now, one my question as to why they didn't enlist their respective gods of destruction to handle it, but it's possible that Zamasu waited to deal with the other universes until after the immortality wish; presumably not even a god of destruction can kill him with the Super Dragon Balls having made him immortal, only Zeno or another wish on the super dragon balls could do that. So if he was truly immortal, it's likely he could survive the gods of destruction long enough to kill off the kais.

Goku's personality in Super

• Why is Goku so stupid in Super? He's never been book smart but he's always had common sense. He's also too fight happy now, he always liked a good fight but he also no when to cut the shit and when it wasn't that important. It's like he's a parody of himself now all of a sudden. Vegeta's gotten great character development but the show just make Goku look like an imbecile now.
  • Interestingly enough, the Goku we saw in Dragon Ball Z was actually a different Goku than the one Toriyama envisioned. What we're seeing now is actually much closer to what Goku was actually supposed to be. Remember, he's a Saiyan with severe brain injury. Of course he's going to act stupid, selfish, and all, "Wheee! I'mma needlessly put my life/the world's very existence on the line just for the chance to have a good fight!!"
    • Too much is made of the brain injury, Goku's able to function normally and has no issues from it. The problem is that Goku's never been stupid or selfish. Out of the characters that fight, he's usually one of the more level headed characters. In addition, he's never behaved in a manner fighting people when they clearly don't want to.
    • That's because overall, Goku's character got Adaptational Heroism - ie that he was more level-headed, less silly and selfish, than his character was originally. Which means that overall, Super is closer to his actual character than Z, which downplayed what was always there: wanting a good fight, being a bit silly and not always that smart (just look at his child self, who couldn't tell gender without physical confirmation, which most Earth children can reasonably do without that faux pus), being selfish (case-in-point, he spends most days training because it's fun for him, when given the choice), etc.
  • Goku isn't really stupid. He just has no desire outside of training, growing stronger, and fighting, so everything he does focuses around those things. He can do other stuff like farm and grow a harvest with little difficulty, but he really doesn't want to. Also, the '"Wheee! I'mma needlessly put my life/the world's very existence on the line just for the chance to have a good fight!!"' are traits that Vegeta has shown, while he doesn't have brain damage and is considered quite intelligent.
    • Agreed on the first part but Goku's never behaved like that for the sake of the fight. Any time he's held back, Cell and Buu for example, it was because he was thinking at the bigger picture. He may have been able to surpass Cell if he focused more on his training and he could've killed Buu when they first fought, but what happens if he's no longer around?
    • I'm sorry, did you watch the Buu Saga? Where he could've easily defeated Fat Buu in his SSJ3 form, but wanted Goten and Trunks (i.e., children, and no one knew if the two could master the Fusion technique?) to have a shot? At least Vegeta tried and told Goten and Trunks to run away because he knew they couldn't beat Buu.
    • You're forgetting the reason why Goku didn't beat Buu. He did it because he wanted the next generation of fighters to be able to defend themselves since he was dead. The next time a threat happened, he wouldn't be able to save them, so they need to be able to defend themselves. So Goku's lack of action against Buu was done for a selfless reason, although it was a bit cold-hearted. As for Vegeta, he was literally the reason why Buu was released and he wasn't thinking of his son when he murdered that stadium full of people to egg Goku into fighting him.
  • Goku was always dangerously stupid. Let's not forget he spared Vegeta for no real reason other than him giving a good fight, and tried to do the same to Freeza. I agree that Super's version of Goku is a caricature that borders on self-parody, but the roots for his behavior were all there.
    • Goku tried to spare Frieza the first time out of Cruel Mercy. He wanted Frieza to suffer in his defeat and didn't really care about fighting him again. In the movie Resurrection 'F', Goku did try to spare Frieza because he wanted him to master his golden form. In Super, Goku spared him because he saw him as Not Worth Killing and felt no joy fighting Frieza. So Super actually made Goku more compassionate compared to the movies that Toriyama wrote.
  • Goku was always an Idiot Hero, even when he became an adult - this was a child who couldn't tell gender without feeling them up at first, thought marriage (and a lot of other things) were food until the answers were pointed out to him, and overall his brilliance mostly concerned fighting; he never exactly grew out of his idiocy. Even in his adult years, he did some questionable choices that align with his Blood Knight Saiyan mentality, such as sending Gohan to fight Cell to get him angry enough to go SSJ2 (which Piccolo, Gohan's other father figure, called him out on for not considering Gohan's feelings in this). In DBZ, he had an Adaptational Heroism that made him less selfish, more concerned with the world/his family/etc - in Super he's closer to Toriyama's original envision, ie that he's selfish... but even with that said, he does care about his family, still fights to protect the Earth, and similar such. He's simply a Crouching Moron, Hidden Badass who typically looks silly and stupid, but he's not dumb in everything - particularly fighting - unless you count being Book Dumb (but that's nothing new); nowhere close to a parody IMO.
    • That's not being an idiot, that's being uneducated and un-socialized. Once those problems were corrected, his behavior changed. The problem is that he comes off as more intelligent in Dragonball. The problem is that this doesn't seem like any Goku we've ever seen. He's almost a parody.
    • A true parody caricature of Goku would be more-or-less as such: cares only about fighting, and will only do anything else so long as it contributes to the continuation of such, such as general living and other necessities like training. As a result of caring only about fighting, he wouldn't really know or care about other knowledge, having a family, and quite a lot of other things. And given his love for battle, he might even start them just so he can get that thrill, without caring about what anyone else might say. Even with Goku's more selfish outlook in Super, he's not remotely like that - plus there's no proof he's lost any intelligence simply because he doesn't show it as often, outside of battle or otherwise. He just tends to say more silly things for the heck of it; since when does that make someone a parody/less intelligent?
    • To add to the above, the primary reason why Goku seems more silly in Super compared to Z is because the world isn't in danger every five minutes in Super. In Z, there was almost no break between one saga to the next with the fate of the Earth or the universe on the line. There was no time for Goku to be relaxed and silly since almost every time he was on screen, someone was either dead or dying. In Super, everything is much more laid back so we see Goku's goofier side more often. However, when Frieza arrived and the second half of the Future Trunks Saga, he becomes dead serious to the point that Goku took Frieza more seriously in Super than he did in the movie that Toriyama wrote. Outside of him forgetting things in the Future Trunks Saga, he was extremely serious and non-joking once Black revealed how dangerous he was. How silly and selfish Goku is varies depending on the threat level. The higher the threat, the less silly he is.
  • Secondly, OP, Goku hangs out with a GOD OF DESTRUCTION, i.e., a god who can, and will, destroy the Earth if Goku so much as blinks at him the wrong way. Not to mention he's also now buddy-buddy with a EMPEROR-GOD THAT CAN DESTROY UNIVERSES. Of course he's not going to be the intimidating badass towards them. Why would he ever want to give them a reason to turn him into carrot soup before obliterating Earth?
    • Being intimidating is not the question. It's the lack of intelligence and generally altered behavior in the character.

Gohan's strength

• How did Gohan get so much weaker so quickly? Back between the Cell and Buu sagas, he spent years without training, and while he did get a little weaker, he was still easily capable of going super saiyan, and was back up to speed after only a week of training. But between Buu and Super, despite much less time having passed (though the exact quantity of time is a bit ambiguous, no one has visibly aged) and Gohan starting out much, much stronger, he loses not just the mystic power-up, but also the ability to easily go super saiyan.
  • In Z, Gohan was not back to speed after a few weeks of training. He was still weaker than he was seven years ago. He only back up to speed after Old Kai unlocked his power. Also, Gohan didn't lose his power-up. He lost access to his full power and needed Super Saiyan to achieve it. In the Resurrection 'F' Saga, base form Gohan was stronger than Piccolo, who is at least stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell. Add that to the multiplier of a Super Saiyan and Gohan become almost as strong as he was during the Buu Saga after he unlocked his hidden power.
    • To answer the question at hand: Gohan was simply out of practice. It's much like when you learn a language in school or get really good at a video game, then just stop using the skill for several years. No matter what natural talent you had or how good you were then, you're going to be pretty rusty after the years of not using those skills.

Dub issues?

• What was up with Cynthia Cranz's voice for Chi Chi in episode 1's dub? She still had the Chi Chi voice going a bit, but she sounded like she was getting over a cold or something for a majority of it, and her throat got ripped apart. Same question with Kara Edwards as Goten: She kept fluctuating between her normal Goten voice tone and a higher tone for some reason, even in between lines in the same scene. On top of Trunks' new voice actress going slightly deeper than she needed to at points, it makes the dub sound like they should've done some more takes for those actresses, and makes the dub of it seem unpolished/unfinished. I hope they iron out the kinks because I know these actors can still do these voices because of the movie dubs.
  • The movie dubs may have these voice actors/actresses keep doing the voices, but I imagine Super is the first time in a long while that they've had significant voice work to do, rather than just a few/dozen lines or grunts/gasps. Aside from those who have always have significant voice work for their characters (such as Goku, Vegeta, etc), they're gonna need some preparation to get back into things. It only gets more complicated for the new voices, since they have to find a balance between adequately replicating the old voice, and their own nuances- it takes time before such things settle for good, so some early kinks are to be expected. As far as more takes, recording studios typically aren't cheap, so they usually have only so much time to work with - combined with the early kinks, they can't really afford to redo takes to their heart's content. Moreover, we have yet to see proof that they're more than just minor voice-acting hiccups as-of-yet.

Universe 10's God of Destruction

• How exactly did Zamasu and Black killed the God of Destruction of the 10 universe? I mean, I can get they killed all the kais in the other 11, killing the gods in the process, but since Zamasu IS a Supreme Kai, wouldn't that God still be alive?
  • Zamasu was promoted to a Supreme Kai position, but temporarily as a result of wearing a single Potara earring- without it, he's an apprentice Supreme Kai, not an official one such as Gowasu. Therefore, killing Gowasu and whoever the others were would've been sufficient to 'kill' that universe's God of Destruction, and subsequently put the attendant into limbo - and killing Gowasu didn't automatically make him one either in his place (except in Zamasu's own mind); the position seems to need to be bestowed by some higher/equal power.

Goku knowing how King Piccolo was defeated in the manga

• From the Super manga, Goku is the one who comes up with the idea to learn the Evil Containment Wave and even tell the story of King Piccolo. The problem, when did Goku learn this story? He wasn't around when Roshi explained Piccolo's origins in Dragon Ball, never asked about the Evil Containment or Piccolo at the 23rd World Martial Arts Tournament, and he didn't see his friends again until five years later in which Raditz happened. So when did Goku take the time to asked about how King Piccolo was defeated? We also know he didn't know about King Piccolo's original defeat by Kami since he had no clue what the Evil Containment Wave was when he saw Shen/Hero used it.
  • Maybe someone told him when he asked how King Piccolo was defeated?
  • King Piccolo was old, forgotten news by the time of Z, so I don't see why anyone would tell him about King Piccolo's original defeat.
  • Goku literally watched Kami use the Evil Containment Wave on Piccolo Jr., he would have had plenty of reason to at least know of the technique. Not to mention with Kami knowing the move, Mr. Popo or Kami himself may have explained the situation to Goku while he was training on the lookout as a kid.
• Goku spend a lot of time with Kami and Popo on the look out to train after he beated King Piccolo and the next Tournament. In this time, he and Kami and Popo talked about the situation and King Piccolo. They talked about the creation of King Piccolo. Since Goku knows about the fact the lives of Kami and Piccolo are linked to each other (we learn this in the conversation between Goku and Kami before the match between Piccolo and Kami), it's not impossible Goku also learned about the first big battle between Earth and King Piccolo and/or the sacrifice Master Roshi made. I mean... Goku knows Kami and Popo can't kill Piccolo without killing Kami. It isn't impossible Goku asked Popo how Piccolo was stopped in the past. And if not Popo, Kami could have told him in another conversation (like: your master died trying to seal Piccolo away with the Mafuba/Evil Containment Wave).
  • And to be honest: Goku saw Kami using the Evil Containment Wave on Piccolo (and he saw Piccolo reversing it). He also heard Piccolo saying the same move wouldn't work on him anymore. He figured out by himself Kami was sucked into the bottle and the heroes talked a little bit about the Evil Containment Wave after the fight, with Goku asking how Kami can escape from the bottle. Master Roshi even mentioned before the group (and Goku) the Evil Containment Wave won't work on Piccolo anymore... Even if he wasn't told it yet, he got enough information that moment to connect all the dots.

Edit: After rereading everything, the amount of details he tells Trunks and Mai... He has to have heard the story somewhere. My guesses are Master Roshi or Mister Popo.

Master Roshi and immortality

• Why did Roshi want to have that Paradise flower? Wasn't it established that he was immortal in the first manga?
  • He's immortal because of a pet phoenix, said to be capable of bestowing said condition, which he once offered as a prize... before Turtle reminded him that it ironically died from being fed 'tainted bird seed'. Depending on how it's immortality worked and whether it's still 'in use', Roshi's statements and subsequent chowing could be an act, or it could actually work as he said it did - either way, the training for Goku and Krillin was definitely the real highlight.

Beerus' attitude between tournaments

• In Ep 77, Beerus is doing his best to keep Goku from getting the multiverse tournament to start (even threatening to destroy him), but I recall that back during the Hit Arc, the reason Beerus has Whis training Goku and Vegeta was because of the tournament. He even mentions that he wants Goku to be the captain of the team. Did Beerus get a case of amnesia? Or is it bad translation?
  • I don't see a contradiction here. Zen-Oh is pretty much an omnipotent child and Beerus knows it and is rightly afraid of that fact. If Zen-Oh remembers about the tournament, he wants the top fighters of his universe to be in a good shape to fight, but he is definitely in no rush to remind Zen-Oh about the tournament if he happens to just forget about it. Beerus knows Zen-Oh can get easily bored or disappointed, and that either of those things would have potentially catastrophic consequences.
  • Also, Goku's acting extremely reckless in not realizing just how high the stakes are. He's treating it as a friendly little sparring match with fighters where at the end everyone goes home laughing and enjoying themselves. Beerus is understandably pissed that Goku's willing to put multiple universes on the line just for the chance of having a good fight.
  • Except Goku didn't know that the stakes would be that high; his only experience was with the previous tournament, and moreover while he's seen Zen'o's power in action, that was in only in response to destroying Merged Zamasu (who'd already killed everything). There's no good reason in his mind therefore that Zen'o (either of them) would intentionally choose such a penalty, seeing as it's not his outright job to destroy, unlike Beerus - still fairly reckless, but in-character since he also thought there's no way Zamasu was bad until proven otherwise.
    • Except for the part where everyone who knows Zen-Oh told him that repeatedly. We all knew Zen-Oh was capable and willing to destroy universes, and Goku is privy to the same information as we are.
    • They told him the same general things about Beerus, and look how he behaved on King Kai's world. One way or another, Goku's mind works a certain way when it comes to judging people, as well as behaving around others, and thanks to Saiyan pride he's got it ingrained pretty bad; here (and with Zamasu, among others) it bit him in the ass, but it still works the same way.

Zen-Oh's Behavior

• Why would he be so oblivious to the multiverse he's in charge of? He doesn't even seem to understand how f'd up it is to erase a universe for losing a tournament they didn't even ask to be in. There doesn't even really seem to be any checks and balances for him. For that matter, why have a God of Destruction like Beerus and/or Champa? Their job is to destroy in an effort to balance the life that the Supreme Kai creates but Beerus and Champa are a bit "trigger-happy." Champa really wanted to kill his team for losing.
  • As they've explained, Zen'o is basically like an innocent child, in both the good and bad ways. Therefore he has a different view than the rest of us, but we don't know how/why he came to have such power, let alone why thus far there's nothing that could check him. As far as the Kais/Gods of Destruction, the former likely create all the time, while the latter only visit inhabited planets (rather than every planet in the universe)- there's no evidence there's an outright imbalance thus far.
    • The question isn't if he's child-like but why is he? You'd figure that "God" would understand the nature of what he does. All of the other gods know their jobs and take them seriously. Beerus and Champa may be quick to the kill but they know how things work and understand the repercussions of their actions.
    • For all we know, he simply decides what's best for it, knowing full well how things work even if his mind is childlike. Whether that includes letting things be, pruning the weak ones, or whathaveyou, he's the supreme authority who apparently gets to decide that... we just don't know certain why's/how's and such about he got into his position.
  • Zen-Oh doesn't seem to have a job, unlike the Kai and the Gods of Destruction. He's just so powerful that everyone has to tiptoe around him. His relationship with the other gods seem kinda like Majin Buu's with Satan before he expelled his evil side, he's an utterly destructive force that happens to have a childlike behaviour which allows other folk to keep him in line.
    • Buu couldn't have been controlled either and being a destructive force of the universe explains his demeanor. Destruction was something he was tasked with like Beerus, it's what he was. Zen-Oh clearly has a job overseeing the entire universe which he can't effectively due with that mindset. He's more of a threat to everyone than the worst villain on the show.
    • Overseeing the universes doesn't necessarily mean he has to simply manage/leave them alone though; destroying weak universes could be part of that job too.
    • Yes but that's not what Zen-Oh does, he destroys arbitrarily. Goku brought him to the future to deal with a rogue Kai and he decided to destroy the whole universe. Goku reminded him of the tournament that he asked for after seeing a tournament that was forced on the contestants between Beerus and Champa then he decided that he'll destroy the universe that loses. That doesn't speak to the rest of the universe, just the people fighting. That sounds like someone that's terrible at what he does at worst and doesn't make sense as a character at best.
    • As established though, what's arbitrary for us and what's arbitrary for gods is quite different. It could be that a universe simply being weak is grounds enough that it can be considered for destruction, and there doesn't have to have to be any other reason; our Gods of Destruction have destroyed planets for only-slightly-more trivial reasons after all. It could simply be for the latter, it's their sole job, while for the Top God it's an optional-yet-viable choice for his overall job.
    • Maybe it's like a corporation: they want to downsize the multiverse to increase the productivity of the remaining ones and see the weaker universes as unproductive liabilities that can't pull their weight around enough to keep supporting.

Tournament of Power Contestants

• So, if a universe loses their match, it gets erased. The story has shown that the afterlife is just that, you're still living as a part of the universe just in a different section and some characters even get special dispensation to keep their bodies. Having said all of that, doesn't that mean that dead characters should be able to participate? Krillin, Tien and Master Roshi may be game but they don't have the power for what's about to happen. Every fighter we've seen so far from the other universes were, at least, on Piccolo's level so why not pick up fighters that can bang? The team should be Goku, Vegeta, (dead)Frieza, (dead)Kid Buu, Majin Buu, Piccolo, (dead) Cell, (dead) Dabura, #17 and #18.
  • That's assuming any of said dead participants would choose to go along with the tournament. Dabura was last seen as a love freak, so he probably wouldn't want to fight; Kid Buu just wants to destroy everything, so he probably wouldn't listen in the first place; Frieza and Cell might listen at first, but what's the guarantee they'll go along with everything to the very end? For all we know, the latter two might just decide to use dirty methods in-or-outside the ring, get themselves disqualified and/or killed again (quite possible), and overall contribute much less than weaker-but-longer-lasting fighters. And assuming the heroes would choose this option in the first place as well, when they haven't with any previous villains whatsoever, and never thought to at any point.
    • The tournament encompasses them too. They're, basically, still living in Other World and wouldn't take too kindly to being erased which would ensure Cell and/or Frieza good behavior never mind that Frieza knows who Beerus is and that he's not to be crossed. Kid Buu may be a bit of a wild card but he's controllable for someone like Beerus and/or Whis. The stakes of the tournament are too high not to swing for the fences.
    • The stakes were high when Kid Buu was rampaging, yet Goku and Vegeta deliberately didn't use Fusion and chose to fight with their own power, despite it could've having resulted in their deaths (and the deaths of everything else). Similar stakes were present when Cell was in danger of absorbing Android 18, and Krillin knew that, yet he still destroyed the controller that'd could've easily ended her. With this history in making choices, human or Saiyan, there's still no good overriding reason in-universe to revive the villains even with with the fate of the Universe at stake; in fact, many would choose to fight and go out with a bang on their own power, rather than having to rely upon potentially dangerous wild cards like them.
  • Kid Buu is most definitely not controllable. He's easily killable, but a martial arts tournament will have rules, and Kid Buu would not listen to them. He's the guy who would get just disqualified, and as such he's less useful then even Bulma would be. As for Freeza and Cell, they could be convinced to participate, but that would mean giving them back their bodies, which might have negative consequences in the future (specially since Freeza is now more powerful than a Super Saiyan Blue, and Cell has DNA that might allow him to get just as strong with the right push.
    • Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan isn't a level, it is a multiplier of a Saiyan's base form. The strongest the base form, the stronger the transformation. Frieza was stronger than Goku and Vegeta's Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan forms during the Resurrection 'F' Saga. Both Goku and Vegeta has gotten much stronger since then. Goku is at least 10x stronger than he was during the Champa Saga alone since he claimed that he counter Hit's Time-Skip and never attempted to used the Kaio-Ken during their rematched, with Hit fully agreeing with him, despite Hit also getting stronger. So Golden Frieza, while still powerful, would be inferior to Goku and Vegeta at this point.
    • The rules aren't set yet, given the exchange between Goku and Zen-Oh's attendant, they understand The World Martial Arts Tournament rules but it's based on what entertains Zen-Oh. As we saw when Buu used Vegeta as a human shield against the Spirit Bomb, he does have a sense of self-preservation so anyone Frieza's level and up can keep him in check. Frieza was as powerful as Super Saiyan Blue at the time but there's been time for Goku and Vegeta to train with Whis and by themselves since then. Even so, he's not as powerful as Beerus or Whis. Besides, the tournament still encompasses him and Cell, death isn't as bad as utter and complete oblivion in Dragonball.
    • One problem though: Kid Buu can't be revived period, so his ability to be controlled is moot. His soul reincarnated into Uub, who was born sometime in Age 774 (ie soon after Kid Buu was destroyed) - in Super, Uub would be about 6 years old by now, with that and several other factors throwing wrenches into his being a good contestant.
    • They don't have to use Kid Buu, replace him with King Cold or that guy that trained with Frieza because that's not the point. The question is why use fighters that are severely outmatched when there's a whole lot of fighters that are available?
    • As mentioned above, it's basically pride and a refusal to deal with villains anymore than they have to; they would only consider it when they have absolutely no chance otherwise, which isn't the case in this tournament even with the high stakes. And as a matter of fact, while they might still be outmatched, even the weaker characters have apparently been getting stronger - who's to say what their power levels are now? At the least, they have to be given the benefit of the doubt, seeing as they were all apparently chosen for reasons yet-to-be-revealed.
  • We don't even actually know the conditions in which the fighters will be recruited. Maybe there will be a "no dead people" clause (they do seem to have an unfair advantage as their energy doesn't run out), or a really small time to make arrangements (which would also explain why all the fighters are from Earth).
  • And now that we do know the rules (ring-out, no flight outside the ring, etc), there's extra kinks in villains being part of the team. Basically, tactics, flexibility, and teamwork are gonna be important... and with few exceptions, villains typically rely on their power and don't always have a plan beyond that, react badly whenever they face an opponent they can't overpower/do anything against, and even if coerced to take part teamwork wouldn't be at the forefront of their minds. Ultimately they'd cause more harm than good, as opposed to a team composed of people that, for the most part, don't have such issues.

Why didn't Trunks use the Dragonballs in the past to restore his world?

• Why didn't Trunks bring the Dragonballs from the past to the future and use them to restore his world? Or he could have brought Dende into the future and had him create new Dragonball for them to use. He could even of had his mother find New Namek, past or future and gotten a Namekian to be the new guardian of Earth and create new Dragonballs.
  • That's more of a DBZ plot hole than a DBS plot hole. Also, there is nothing to even suggest that bringing the present dragon ball into the futures is even remotely possible. Otherwise, he could just bring Kami or the dragon balls back with him when we first see him in Z. One could assume that the creator has to at least exist in that timeline in order for the Dragon balls to work. Also, who say he didn't find a new guardian of Earth? Maybe namek and the new Guardian of earth were destroyed by Zamasu along with the Super dragon ball and all the kaioshin and Gods of destructions.
  • The Dragon Balls can only revive someone who has been dead for less then a year. The Androids had been alive much longer than that, and the way time travel works means he can't just go to the point they could revive everyone. He could probably revive a few people, but other than that there wasn't a lot the dragonballs could accomplish in his timeline.
  • He might be able to restore the physical Earth to the pre-Android state, but that's about it. Everyone who was killed by the Androids and then Goku Black are long dead, I'm afraid.
  • Also, Future Trunks could have asked for King Kai's help locating New-Namek, and asked for some Namekian to go back with them to Earth as a new Kami and to empower the Dragonballs. And with some carefully tought wishes, restore the civilization. But Future Trunks world was iconic, being a post apocaliptic Earth that was restoring itself, and the few humans struggling to survive together. Having the Earth repopulated and the Skyscrappers rebuilt with magic would kill the mood!!

Did Goku forget he can teleport?

• With the Tournament of Power in less than 2 days time and Goku is pressed for time to find his team of fighters, why is he flying instead of using Instant Transmission?
  • Probably. Goku's memory wasn't perfect even before Super, and it's no surprise that on occasion he doesn't remember or think to do something that he can do (such as plowing fields with his bare hands, which he only remembered later in Super, as opposed to the beginning).
    • He most likely does remember that he can plow with his hands, he's just doing his job in the laziest way possible. He only started to used his hands after the plower broke. Goku also tends to teleport to meet people, but he seems to decided to just take it easy and fly. Most likely because he doesn't want to unexpectedly drop in on someone for once.
  • OK, I can buy that, but why isn't Gohan reminding him? You would think he'd bring that up.
  • Because if he had, Gohan couldn't have flown with him to see Krillin. And also, considering the speeds they can fly, it would probably only take minutes or so to get there anyway; they have 40 hours and counting, but it's not exactly an every-seconds-counts situation.
    • He can bring other people with him when he teleports. But yeah, they don't seem to be worried about time at all, 40 hours is way more than they need.

Bulma's pregnancy

• How was Bulma able to get pregnant with Bulla? Bulma is older than Goku, who is at least in his 40s and a grandfather to boot, which means she has to be around her early 50s. How is she still physically capable of having children?
  • Menopause sets in at different ages for everyone, it's not unheard of for a woman in her 50s to still be able to give birth. The process becomes more dangerous for both the mother and child, but that's probably part of the reason why Vegeta is so worried. In my personal experience, I had a friend who was younger than his nephew, with no teenage pregnancies involved.
  • Actually, Bulma isn't even 50 yet. Going by the official timeline, she was born in Age 733 (Goku in Age 736), and the year Bulla was born in Super is late Age 780 - ie at absolute most, Bulma's 48 at this point, or nearing that. Also, Goku should normally be 45, but his multiple sessions in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber make him chronologically older than Bulma now, being 49/50-ish years old.
  • Actually, Goku spent four years in the Hyperbolic Time Chamber and he was dead for a total of eight years (one for the Saiyan Saga, seven between Cell and Buu Saga). So Goku is physically four years younger than he should be. So Goku is seven years younger than Bulma physically. As for the original question, women can have babies in their fifties and later. One of the oldest on record gave birth at 80 years old.
  • According to science articles like this , it is possible for women to absorb DNA from their male children and to have that DNA linger in her body for decades, promoting tissue repair and helping her immune system. It's possible that Trunk's slow-aging Saiyan DNA is boosting his mother's youth, keeping her fertile long after a normal human mother might have reached menopause. And let's not forget that the Dragon Ball universe is far more technologically advanced than ours in many areas, and that fertility and aging treatments probably allow women to remain fertile well into their fifties. Even on normal, present-day Earth, it is possible for women to conceive children in their late 40's without medical intervention (even if it is a bit rare for them to do so.)
  • It's also possible that at some point between DBZ and DBS, Bulma used the Dragon Balls to make herself physically younger. Which would have the side effect of delaying menopause.

18 and 17s names

• Why does everybody call them 18 and 17 and not their real names? we know them, their names are lapis and lazuli, but nobody call them that. I find it hard to believe that would rather be called the model number a mad scientist gave them rather then their real names. Especially for 18 as Krillan her husband calls her that instead of her real name. This isn't like Mr.Satan/Mark or Goku/Kakkarot issue they were only know as 18 and 17 by Dr.Gero during the Cell arc as a code name. Goku was always know as goku and grew with the name goku, and Mr.Satan uses the name as a stage name that became so Iconic it basically is his name.
  • We know their real names from out-of-universe sources, it would be weird for most of the audience if everyone suddenly started using them without a proper set-up, and neither android ever cared much for stating their real name before, so why would they suddenly do it? Actually, do they even know their real names, or their past in general?
  • Even in the Android Saga, when they said they didn't care for Dr. Gero's order to kill Goku, they still essentially followed it because they had nothing else better to do. So the same logic can be applied to their names; that's how they're referred to now, and they simply have little/no interest in going back to their human names, seeing as while 'just' modified, they're no longer fully human anyway. So what reason would they have to reveal their birth names in the first place, assuming they even remember them?

Roshi becoming stronger than Tien

• In episode 89, Roshi defeats Tien, and It is revealed that Roshi has been doing a lot of training since his base form's power level of 139 was revealed in the Saiyan Saga, which is how he had become strong enough to defeat some of Frieza's men in the Revival F arc. Okay, I can buy Roshi becoming stronger than some Frieza soldiers through over 17 years of training. What I can't buy is him becoming stronger than Tien. Back during the Saiyan Saga, Tien's power level was at 250, and he had also been training all of those years. Tien even got opportunities that Roshi did not, training with Kami, Mr. Popo, and King Kai. Since Tien started off stronger than Roshi, and got opportunities that Roshi did not, he should still be stronger than Roshi. How is Roshi now stronger than Tien?
  • Power levels are a really flimsy thing in Dragon Ball Super. Characters often become as strong as the plot demands them to be (see Krillin managing to even start a beam-o-war against Super Saiyan Blue Goku). And maybe the spell Roshi was under actually made him stronger than he normally is, and Goku's remark about him having achieved that power on his own is just plain wrong.
  • As far as Krillin, Goku only turned SSJB to intimidate/test Krillin's 'reaction' to facing such power; he didn't actually use much of it, since even his base form/SSJ could've handled his best friend if he were serious - and given SSJB's perfect ki control, it's quite doable to keep his power low, far moreso than the other forms. Also, it should be noted in the Tien-vs-Roshi fight, the latter only landed two major hits: one that caught Tien off-guard, and another that basically paralyzed him before he got close (which would affect most anyone). So the power levels of that particular fight are vague, and thus (least imo), all we truly have to go on is Roshi being able to trade blows with a partially-serious Post-God base Goku; that's more-or-less reasonable, in the same vein as Krillin, regardless of it's on his own or from the spell.
  • Even if you take the actual value of power levels seriously (you shouldn't, as they never made sense), a 100 point difference is negligible. Tien had training opportunities that Roshi didn't, but it's possible the latter didn't need them. In the original Dragon Ball, for example, Popo has to teach a young Goku about wasting his movements, which was a lesson Goku recalls Roshi trying to teach him a while back. Tien training with King Kai amounted to weight and endurance training, considering he never learned any of King Kai's techniques. It's possible that Roshi is just a more naturally gifted fighter than Tien, and thus the results of his comparatively inferior training pay off higher dividends.
  • Roshi isn't necessarily "stronger" in terms of raw power, so much as he's vastly more skilled in knowing exactly how to best use it. He's got lifetimes more experience in martial arts and knowing people, so he's able to bring down opponents with the barest minimum of power. Think of it as the equivalent of Aikido or Jiu-jitsu, the founders of which could dismantle opponents many times stronger.

Great Saiyaman

• So, no one knows Gohan is the Great Saiyaman? I thought his identity was revealed at the tournament. He took the mask off, and I'm guessing there were plenty of cameras to capture the moment. Why is his identity a secret again?
  • Unless I'm mistaken, only Sharpner and Erasa actually made the connection that Gohan was Great Saiyaman/'Golden Warrior' at the tournament, with everyone else thinking that he's posing as the former. So likely, being friends (however loosely), they simply didn't tell anyone; the rest of Earth's people didn't make the connection and/or were too focused on Videl's condition, thus his secret's still safe overall.
  • Also there weren't any cameras at the event. Piccolo exploded them with his brain.

About King Kai wanting to be revived

• Why doesn't he just use the Namekian Dragon Balls? He used them to restore his planet, plus they have three wishes. Come to think of it, why didn't he wish to be revived when he was wishing for his planet to be restored? Or when Kibito and Shin wished to be separated? Or when they were wishing Piccolo to be revived? He has had more than his fair share of opportunities.
  • The better question, why didn't he come back to life when the initial "Wish back everyone killed by Cell" wish was done? Sure it didn't revive Goku but that was because he was already revived once so Shenron couldn't do it again.
    • Because he was technically killed by Goku's action of bringing the exploding Cell to his world? It can be argued Cell was just a weapon and Goku killed King Kai.

Did Krillin just insult Gohan?

• In Episode 92, Krillin and the others learn that Goku had lied to them about the prize money to which Krillin says, basically, "I can understand why Gohan wouldn't tell us... but we fought alongside you! Why wouldn't you tell us?" My question is, did he just insult Gohan by insinuating that Gohan wasn't a friend/comrade? I mean, he fought alongside them since he was four!
  • I think it was just more of Goku trying to bribe his friends into battle. If he had just tell them straight up what was going on,they would have joined anyway. This is Goku after all.
  • Krillin probably understood that Gohan was Goku's son, which brought on the comment; if a parent has a good reason for something, it tends to be easier to follow/understand whatever secret it was. By contrast, Krillin is his absolute best friend, with the others being friends/comrades to varying degrees, so of course he'd feel a little insulted.

Sidra's plan

• So what exactly was Sidra even thinking? Apparently, he plans to sabotage Universe 7's team by killing Freeza wanting to leave no traces of evidence behind. Yet he gives random mortals some of his energy anyway to erase Freeza from existence which he could be found out anyway due to some random universal footage that's somehow randomly recorded just like with the U6 tournament and Freeza blowing up planets (as stated by Roh who seemed to have watched God Tube to know who Freeza was). Which someone like Daishinkan or Zen'o can detect that ki signature belongs to Sidra akin to Zamasu being able to sense a SSJB Goku in the U6 tournament in God Tube footage.
  • The gods of universe 9 don't seem very bright, they most likely didn't really think things through. It was probably an idea given by the universe 4 god of destruction, who can claim innocence in the whole issue (assuming their communication can't be traced), and would get possibly get rid of two universes by doing that.
  • Pure desperation is another factor. They were having a terrible time finding other team-members and have a noose around their neck and the necks of the trillions of lives under their care. They weren't thinking clearly with so much at stake.

Frieza's and Frost's Agenda

• Exactly what and how Frieza is going to manipulate the events of the tournament? In Episode 96, with the manipulation attempt of Sidra, ya know the U9's God of Destruction, it seems that Frieza is hatching a plot in using the God of Destruction's desperation for their universe's survival in toppling down Beerus. Fast forwards to the tournament itself, Frieza meets his U6 counterpart Frost and the two getting along each other very quick, or I should say too quick since the are forging a deadly alliance behind their respective Universe Team's back for an unknown agenda. So exactly what are the two's agenda in the tournament again?
  • Their exact plan to manipulate the tournament (and Gods of Destruction) remains a mystery at present, but ultimately Frieza's (and presumably Frost's) goal is to survive. The easiest way to do that is to make sure their Universe wins, and for Frieza get himself wished back to life with Earth's Dragon Balls afterward - though the joke's on him; they can't - yet if necessary, these two would stoop to any measures if it meant surviving, and are cunning enough to adapt their plans as needed.
  • We know the post of God of Destruction is filled by choice, not by birth. So, Freeza's end goal is probably to usurp Beerus somehow. As for how Frost fits in, Freeza probably intend to double-cross him as well, or maybe allow him to become his lackey in universe 7.
• Either that or Freeza will betray universe 7 so there is no hell to return to, assuming he will stay in his current state as a result.
• I presume that if Universe 6 looks like it's winning, Frieza would toss Goku out of the ring and join the winning side. Same with Frost, only in reverse. Whether this would actually work is anyone's guess, I can imagine it would be down to how charitable Zen'o is feeling.

What if there is no winner

• We know Frieza and Frost are working on a plan, we know Frieza is working to manipulate Beerus probably into making damn certain he doesn't go back to hell. I can easily see those two manipulating circumstances or hell it just randomly working out that there is a tie at he end of the Tournament of Power. Zeno is so random that that could mean everybody loses OR everybody wins or sudden death.

Champa's behavior

• Champa cheers his team on, telling them to make sure to take out Universe 7. He then starts another bout of animosity between him and Beerus. Considering that at least one of them will be dead, You'd think he would be sad about what's going to come pass, and show a little more love for his brother while he still can. I know that Champa himself wants to survive, but shouldn't he at least be trying not to antagonize his brother? Unless the Super Dragon Balls are used to prevent or undo the destruction of the universes, this will be the last 48 minutes (give or take a few considering the universes may or may not be given a few more minutes after the tournament ends before they are destroyed) that they will have together before at least one of them is destroyed. I'd expect Champa to be dreading that moment, and to want to show some love toward Beerus. Even if Champa plans to use the Super Dragon Balls to wish for this to be prevented or undone, and for the Omni King to be okay with it, and that's why he does not seem sad, there is still the possibility that he won't win, and they will both be destroyed. If Champa is planning on using the SDB, he should let Beerus know that and not just antagonize him. If he isn't planning on using the SDB, he should be using his remaining time to not cause a rift between him and Beerus. He didn't have to antagonize Beerus while cheering on his team. Why would he do that? Before you suggest that revealing a plan like that would be suicide with the Omni King there, he could just go over to beerus and tell him he wants to talk in private, than he could tell him his plan, and if anyone asked, they could lie that Champa just wanted to use the last of their time together to tell his brother that he loved him. No one would suspect a thing.
  • When we first met Champa, I think it was made very clear that he and Beerus barely tolerates each other. Oh, sure, Beerus gave Champa his universe's Earth back but whose to say it wasn't just to make Champa stop bugging him? I could actually say the same for Beerus in this situation as he too has the very real chance of losing his brother forever.
  • You forget that Beerus and Champa are gods with egos; not only do they not feel the same way on things, but the very thought of making nice is likely demeaning to them, intolerable, or some such. Sure, they are brothers and secretly care for each other, but it's just easier to fight with each other; this isn't uncommon in real life either. And given their egos, wanting to see their Universe be the top dog of the tournament, there's not much room to be nice in the first place... plus, they'd likely only consider their last moments together when it's actually an inevitability/reality, not before. Also, Champa/Beerus wishing for the Super Dragon Balls to undo everything would seem obvious, but it likely wouldn't succeed - bringing back a physical universe seems a non-issue, but we don't know if Super Shenron can bring back a person without their previously-existing soul (a side-effect of Zeno's Erase ability). Particularly since Zeno's power is above that of the dragon, able to override Zamasu's immortality, among other things...
    • They could just first wish for the universes to be restored and for Zeno to be okay with it, wait a year (or have the Supreme Kais use their time rings and do it for them if that is okay, I can't remember if the Supreme Kais can use the time rings for something like that, or how time works in this franchise), use them again to bring back the Other Worlds (afterlife(s)) in those universes and the souls of the inhabitants, and than do it one more time and bring everyone back to life. Sure, the souls would be gone, but they could just wish those back too. If the SDBs can't bring back the destroyed souls and revive them in one wish, they'd just have to bring back the souls first and wait another year before restoring the inhabitants to life. Bringing back souls is entirely possible. The SDBs have been stated to be able to grant ANY wish with NO LIMITATIONS. This was said by Zuno, who knows everything. The only reason they failed to keep Zamasu safe was because the gods have the power to destroy souls, and he WAS just a soul at that time since his body had been destroyed.
    • The same general claim was made of Earth's Dragon Balls before everything, and we also know that any Dragon Balls are dependent upon the power of their creator. Perhaps Zalama is an omnipotent god of sorts, and hence so is Super Shenron's power, but Zeno stands above them. This includes his power to destroy anything, including souls... whereas bringing back a person requires their soul to still exist. If Zeno's power destroys a soul, but Super Shenron is unable to wish back a soul that has been destroyed by Zeno's power (because of that power difference), then that's that, 'no limitations' or otherwise. Until it gets clarified, if ever, it could likely go either way imo.
    • The power difference would not matter, since the wish wouldn't be to override Zeno's power, but to restore something that he destroyed. The Earth and Namekian Dragon Balls have revived people and restored things killed and destroyed by beings far more powerful than their creators, Shenron reviving everyone on Namek killed by Frieza and his men for example. They can't kill beings more powerful than their creators, but they can revive those killed by beings more powerful than their creators. The question wouldn't be if the SD Bs could override Zeno to restore a soul, it would be if they could restore a soul at all. Zeno isn't the only one with that power, the Go Ds can do it too. What the SD Bs need to be capable of for this to work, would be to bring back someone like Dr. Mashirto. The question is, can they do THAT? You do bring up a good point about how it could go either way, although, Zuno knows everything at least pertaining to Universe 7, so while he may not know about Zeno, he should know about Beerus and his own power to destroy souls, and he told zamasu they could do anything, which leads me to believe they could do anything in regards to universe 7, lack of information regarding the other Go Ds and Zeno non withstanding. Than again, now that I think about it, Zamasu did just barge in and threaten Zuno for he info, so he could have lied to spite him, especially since he knew that Goku and Beerus would probably take care of him. Yeah nevermind. Zuno could have lied for all we know, so you do have a point.

Goku's reaction towards Universe 9's Erasure's Aftermath

• With the following erasure of the Universe 9, the Tournament of Power will getting even Darker and Edgier as Mojito, the former Universe 9's angel, is actually seen smirking as if he is no longer dealing with the trash anymore. Sure, Universe 7 did finally settled the score with Universe 9, but it also caused that very universe to disappear under the Grand Priest's decision! Goku of all people starting to feel less pleased even after his team's victory and feel more remorseful about it, all the while glaring at the Grand Priest himself, who didn't even flinch. What could this even mean?
  • Assuming you're taking about Goku, he just got a chilling reminder of what's at stake here - losing the Tournament of Power = immediate erasure. Even his friendship with Zeno-sama may not save him or U7.
    • He's also probably pissed at the Grand Priest for so casually declaring an entire universe be annihilated without any reluctance.

Angels going inert

• It is said that an angel goes inert after their God of Destruction dies. So how is Mojito still active?
  • It is stated that the World of Void is a place where time and space don't exist, laying outside of the multiverse itself. So perhaps in there, this restriction doesn't apply, whereas outside, it does. Or alternatively... it might be a lie; we'll see.
  • Wasn't it explicitly stated at the start of the tournament that the Angels were exempt because Zeno plans on wiping out universes. Presumably the Grand Priest put in a good word for his kids.
  • ^He's not referring to the Angels being exempt from destruction; he's referring to the fact that the Angels are supposed to 'vanish' when their God of Destruction is dead, only coming back when a new one is appointed.
  • That rule may simply not apply anymore, at least in the situation of universal erasure, given that it's now impossible for a God of Destruction to be appointed to Universe 9. Fact that none of the angels have been concerned about it, with even Whis laughing about how he'll be fine if Universe 7 loses, seems to imply that that rule's off the table given that it would essentially be the equivalent to being erased. This could all tie into the theory that the whole tournament is some kind of sinister plot by the Grand Priest and other angels to start with.
  • It's not made explicit what being "inactive" means either. It could just means they are relinquished of duty can't be involved in the universes until a new god is appointed, due to their True Neutral (or Stupid Neutral in some cases) position, rather than shutting down like robots.

Lavenda and Comfrey being unscathed

• In episode 97, Lavenda and Comfrey of Universe 9 join forces with Botamo of Universe 6 and two Universe 4 warriors to gang up on Gohan, Roshi, Piccolo, Tien, and Krillin. While Tien blinds them with a Solar Flare, the others jump into the air and launch attacks together in synchronization. All four of their attacks land direct hits, and after the dust clears, we see that all five of their foes are completely unscathed. Okay, I get Botamo since he has very powerful durability for someone with such (relatively) low power (being completely unhurt by any of base Goku's attacks despite being nowhere near as fast or strong as him), and we don't know the power of the two Universe 4 fighters, but Lavenda had already been established as weaker than Gohan since he had to blind him in order to even fight well enough against him to make it a tie in the end, and that was before Gohan regained his Ultimate form. Piccolo was even with Gohan before he regained that form, and Lavenda is said to be the second most powerful mortal of Universe 9, which would make Comfrey weaker by default. How did Lavenda and Comfrey remain completely undamaged from the combined forces of attacks fired by two beings who are both more powerful than either of them, nevermind Krillin and Roshi's blasts being added on top of that?
  • Their attacks weren't a combination, U7 was surrounded and attacked everything around themselves. It's likely that Piccolo's and Gohan's attacks simply didn't hit Lavender and Comfrey, and they just had to deal with the weaker attacks. Furthermore, Gohan was clearly not even trying, just throwing weak ki-blasts instead of a Masenko or Kamehameha (and Piccolo didn't really charge his Makankosappo either, so it definitely wasn't at full power). There's also a possibility that the opponents simply dodged the attacks altogether.
  • As it's been shown, Botamo's entire ability is to absorb attacks; he's likely at least part of why there was no effect, in addition to the not-trying angle; it stands to reason the U7 fighters are trying to converse power, so they can (try to) last the entire Tournament.

Frieza's Antagonism Against Zeno

• It may be a surprising case but out of all fighters who still present, Frieza stands out the most for not only finding the two Zeno's "game" to be deplorable, he even outright vows that he will overthrow the King of All one way or another! Yes, you heard it folks, this is coming from Goku's arch-nemesis who loves nothing more than destroying or torturing other beings beneath him and nearly made Goku and his friends's life miserable. And now he vows to topple down the Top Gods themselves after witnessing the erasure of Universe 9. Could this be one of Frieza's hidden standard that we rarely seen? Or this is yet another sinister plot for his unknown yet grander ambition?
  • There's likely an element of fear there as well. One of Frieza's berserk buttons is being outmatched, and it's been demonstrated many times that he doesn't cower, rather he tends to go all Leeroy Jenkins on whoever dares to think themselves better than him.
  • Frieza also thinks on a different level than most of our M Cs. Goku is still having fun, Vegeta has gone out of his way to save a U6 fighter and everybody else is fighting for survival. Frieza keeps all his stuff in U7 and these two brats were gonna nuke it for no reason. As far as we've been shown at the end of the day Frieza doesn't blow up a planet because he's bored. With both Vegeta and Namek it was essentially to survive whether you think he did it because Beerus pushed him or because he really believed in the Super Saiyan or even a sneak attack by a boat load of weak Saiyans. He didn't do it because his food was too greasy, or he didn't get pudding or because apparently counting past four is really complicated.

General Kahseral?

• Why does Toppo refer to Kahseral as general? He is not the leader of the Pride Troopers, Toppo is. If general is a rank amongst the Pride Troopers, shouldn't all 10 of the Universe 11 fighters be generals? The Universe 11 team is comprised of the 10 most powerful members of the Pride Troopers (the 10 most powerful inhabitants of Universe 11 are all Pride Troopers, which is one heck of an accomplishment for the organization), so since they have the very best of the Pride Troopers in the team, shouldn't all of them be high ranking officials in the Pride Trooper organization? I know that power does not necessarily equal rank, what with Toppo being only the second most powerful member despite being the commander of the entire organization, but are we really supposed to believe that out of all 8 of the other members, Kahseral is the only general? While we are on the subject, why aren't Toppo and Jiren refered to by rank? Toppo is the leader, and Jiren is the most powerful member, so why does Toppo refer to Kahseral as general while Kahseral just refers to Toppo by name? It shouldn't be a war thing, they should have all fought in wars.
  • For Kahseral, 'General' is basically his nickname and/or moniker, and therefore isn't likely to be an actual military-given title at all.
  • Given he only starts wearing the uniform during the tournament I wonder if he joined the Pride Troopers after a career somewhere else, where he earned his 'General' rank. If that was the case said rank wouldn't really mean anything, but he would still be called it as a mark of respect.
  • Alternatively perhaps Toppo is also a general, in the American Army and Marines there are four ranks of General so they could both be generals with Toppo still having rank on him.

What happened to Future Great Priest in the manga?

• In the manga, it's stated that the Great Priest is the most powerful being in the multiverse, unlike in the anime where he's only one of the top 5. This would make him stronger than Manga Zeno by default, so why don't we see him after Zeno destroys the multiverse in Trunks's future? If he's stronger than Zeno, I don't see how he couldn't have survived the blast. Why is Zeno the only one that we see afterward?
  • That's incorrect: the top five are the strongest in the multiverse, but even their strongest is below Zeno's power to erase anything - this includes the Grand Priest, in anime or manga. So likely, he was destroyed along with the future timeline, much like everything else.
  • Elaborating on what was said above, Zeno is not really "powerful" as per the definitions of the likes of Goku (in other words, he isn't a great fighter), he's just capable of destroying anything without resistance. And honestly, correct me if I'm wrong, but I never got the impression that Future Zeno necessarily destroyed the whole multiverse, just Future Universe 7. The Grand Priest is probably still around.
  • In the manga at least, that timeline is gone. The Time Ring representing it bursts to show that Zen'o eliminated everything. It stands to reason he did the same in the anime.

How did Android 17 get as Strong as Super Saiyan Blue?

• I know that they need to get all the fighters up to a certain level to make the Tournament of power more interesting, but how did Android 17 train that much that he's surpassed Full Power Super Saiyan, SSJ2, SSJ3, Majin Buu, Gotenks, Mystic Gohan and Super Saiyan God in Base form that Goku needs Super Saiyan Blue to fight him on even terms? Last time I checked, he wasn't any stronger in Buu Saga.
  • For what it's worth, he's not the only one; his sister 18 has managed to get to at least something equal to Goku's Post-God Base power level, despite her tendency not to fight unless she has something to gain from it. And of course, the levels Krillin, Roshi, and Gohan have gained in a similar amount of time. The franchise is full of such power-ups, increasing geometrically as the sagas have gone on, so this is basically the biggest yet across the board - it's just up to opinion whether or not it's justified.
  • Remember that the Androids were able to easily take down Super Saiyans with persumably little to no actual combat experience. If they trained consistently, then by DBZ's (admittedly shaky) logic, they should be able to fight at least relatively near to that level.

Just what kind of training did Frieza do?

• He got well over a thousand times stronger (stronger than Buu and equal to Base Super Saiyan God) in 4 months in base form and then surpassed Super Saiyan Blue, which took Goku and Vegeta about 15 years? Isn't this way too far fetched? Would it have been more sensible to assume that he just wished for the power of a God?
  • It's been noted that Frieza is not only a natural prodigy, he was a kind of 'mutant' among his own race, so he had a lot of power from the get-go. And since even his untrained self's full power was only below Majin Buu at the time, training (of any kind) would make his power increase by leaps and bounds beyond what he was capable of before.
  • Now when you look back, in the Saiyan Saga, Goku's power went from 300 to 40k (max) in 80 days due to training in 10g, over 130 times. The others also improved at least 10 fold in a year and might have matched Goku had they used gravity training and Kaioken. You go back to that point it seems impressive how much humans could keep up with Saiyans despite their Zenkai's making them stronger after every battle, it was almost like they progressed better in training to compensate. There was even a theory that this was the reason for Gohan's huge potential as a Saiyan-human Hybrid. Then came Super Saiyan and the humans got Demoted to Extra from that point on....
  • In Namek saga, Goku's base power went up at least 12 fold in 7 days due to training in 100g. Then a Zenkai boosted it by just over 16 times to face Frieza's 4th form and then Super Saiyan another 50, making it 10000x in total over the course of a few days. Vegeta's skyrocketed from 35k to over 530k and then over 1.5 million in 2 zenkais, and Gohan's went up from 18000 to over a million to challenge Frieza's third form (though it was temporary). Nothing like that has been seen before or since. But it's been done before. The only thing is there was at least some training / unlock footage shown to the viewer to indicate their progress. Those zenkais in Namek Saga were bizarrely huge though and defied all explanation, or we have to assume that huge power increases occur just around the time a character is on the verge of unlocking an inner power like Super Saiyan.
  • The thing is that after that, the increase in strength was more measured. All the improvement Goku made after that till the end of Buu saga (some 12 years or so) was probably over 5000 fold considering that kid Buu easily defeated the Kais who were well over 1000x Frieza's level. Considering that super takes place some years after Buu Saga (which means Goku and Vegeta must have got stronger since), Frieza should have easily gotten 10-20000x stronger in base form alone to match base form Super Saiyan God (which I assume is above Super Saiyan 3). We have no idea how he got that much stronger without transformations or any of that stuff and managed to catch up to over 15 years of progress in 4 months, and Frieza doesn't look like he can surpass Goku or Vegeta when it comes to training intensity. That's the headscratcher. There's no zenkai or Super saiyan or training or Hyperbolic time chamber that can explain that.
  • Not only that, Frieza is now equal to SSB Goku (we don't know if it's equal to SSB's full mastered potential) who has spent an additional 3 years in the Time chamber and fought Black Goku and Universe 6, simply by getting used to his Golden form. You see, we aren't dealing with the average Dragonball villain anymore...

Does Trunk's Super Saiyan Rage utilize God Ki?

• Just what is it exactly? Is it some combination of Super Saiyan with God Ki?
  • Jury's still out exactly, but it's basically SSJ2 followed by an extreme surge of anger (read: worse than Gohan snapping to SSJ2). And it does use God Ki, for later when Goku and Vegeta fuse into Vegito, Trunks observes that they have unbelievable energy... despite being in SSJB when they did so; only a God or those with God Ki could sense that.
  • I've seen some fan theories that all Broly's legendary super sayian form really was was an inbetween state between Super Saiyan 2 & 3, in the same way that Trunks' initial massive power up was an imperfect inbetween stage between 1 & 2. So maybe it's that combined with God Ki?

Infinite Zamasu in the anime

• How did he end up becoming a universe level virus? As I understand it, when his body was destroyed, his immortal soul survived and started expanding everywhere no longer restricted to a physical form. Or did DB Super just pull a Thanos?
  • Basically the first one, from what's been observed. 'How' is still a tricky matter, since the only other figure in the franchise who's 'actually' been immortal was the movie-only Garlic Jr., and he was sealed.

Caulifla's Attitude Towards Goku

• As far the rivalry between Saiyans from different universes goes, Caulifla's attitude towards Goku is somewhat complex in my personal view. In their first meeting on Episode 97, Caulifla disrespected Goku for not just refuse to shake his hands of friendship, but also mocks him for being "scared" to see the Pride Troopers. Comes Episode 100, she challenged Goku in a duel and DEMANDED him to teach her turning Super Saiyan Blue, but the duel quickly becoming her training when she saw him turned into Super Saiyan 2, funny enough. And then, Episode 101 where even after Kale's rampage, Caulifla accused Goku for "ambushing" Kale before their eventual "teamwork" (yes, and this is because Kale hated the guy for "robbing" Caulifla away.) did hold themselves off against their common rival. What is that attitude towards the champion of U7?
  • As it's been noted, Caulifla's attitude leans a lot more toward U7 Saiyans than it does of U6's, so the handshake refusal and 'scared' comments are in-line with that. Her 'demanding' Goku to teach her the form is also similar to Goku's 'demanding' to learn more about/fight against strong guys he hears about, while her reaction about Kale seems to be personal Anger Born of Worry over her protegee, as she had the same reaction to Cabba making her cry (even in the vein of teaching her how to go SSJ). So definitely complex, but not-so-different from typical U7 Saiyan behavior.

Speed Of Light?

• Why do they say that Dyspo is faster than the speed of light? Are the writers really stupid enough to not realize that the speed of light is slow compared to most of the fighters in Super? Hell, it's slow compared to most of the stronger fighters in Z. 100% Namek arc Frieza was faster than that according to the vs battle wiki. Is this the "Vegeta can't lift 1000 tons even though Buu saga base Goku, who was nowhere near one 25th as powerful as universe 6 arc SS vegeta, could lift 40" thing again? Did they forget how SS Gotenks flew around the world several times in a few seconds? Yes, I know that ki based flight is disabled so he's moving that fast by running and jumping instead of flying, but still. The way they make a big deal about his speed implies that the others can't even fly that fast.
  • It's probably not that everyone isn't typically-faster than the speed of light, but that Dypso's faster-than-light speed is exceptional even by those standards. After all, this is a franchise where episode-long(-or-more) fights can take minutes or even seconds, while the only reason we can see anything at all is plot convention; speed has just been progressively-increasing, same as with overall power.
    • I meant, why are they mentioning lightspeed at all? Since they're supposed to be so much faster than that, there should really be no reason to bring it up unless they are saying just how much faster he is. 200 times for example. If they did not want to give an exact number, they should have said "while we are all faster than light, Dyspo is even faster" or something like that. Otherwise, they are giving the impression that the others can't move faster than light.
  • I think you're understating just how fast light really is. Gotenks flying around the planet was definitely not even close to lightspeed. Someone moving at the speed of light would manage around 7.5 laps around the Earth in a single second, Gotenks was moving much slower than that (assuming the Dragon Ball Earth isn't much larger than the real one). And that was considered incredibly fast by a version of Piccolo who would probably be not impressed by the likes of Freeza.
    • There are plenty of feats that put Namek arc Frieza and the Z fighters after that above light speed. A single google search will give you all the proofs you need.
    • End of Z characters still take at least minutes to fly to other locations on the same planet, and until Beerus and Whis showed up, interstellar travel was unthinkable without either a spaceship or teleportation. Sorry fanboys, but the idea that no one reached lightspeed until Super is completely reasonable, and there's no "proof" otherwise. The closest to proof of speed you'll ever get are the statements about characters like Dyspo.

Return of Super Sayian God

• I'm talking strictly about the anime, when and how did Goku learn to activate SSG on his own? I also find it weird that both Beerus and Whis were rather nonchalant about SSG returning, like the already knew. And it begs another question, if Goku had the ability all along, then why not use it during the Future Trunks saga?
  • We don't know if he had the ability all along, at least yet; perhaps he only got it as recently as the current saga, insofar as the anime's version. As for 'how', if the anime's version is like the manga's - as it appears to be, or close to it, based on the usage of SSJG/SSJB in tandem - he regained it with special divine training, which is left mostly vague. Still, there is precedent to using the form without the ritual, even without counting the manga: in the original Battle of Gods movie, Goku somehow activated SSJG by himself to stop Beerus's final attack, despite having lost it earlier.
    • Except that the movie and the anime are not the same. In the anime, he punches out Beerus's final ki attack in base form.
    • Yes, they are different, but it's still what the anime was adapted from at it's core, so it should still apply in general.
  • I would imagine he regained access to the form when he trained with Whis between the Battle of Gods and Ressurection F arcs, at the around the same time he achieved Blue. The reason he didn't use the form in the Future Trunks arc is probably due to the fact the battles in that arc were not supposed to be as long as the ones happening now. There would be no point in stalling with an inferior form against Zamasu, instead of just pulling the stronger form. But now that conserving energy during a long fight is a major factor, the form has its use again. A better question would be why he only used the form now in this tournament, when he already turned blue a few times before.
  • The answer to that is that Goku's trying really hard not to go blue to ensure he can use it as long as possible against Jiren/Toppo/Hit/Unknown threat. The rabbit, as Whis says, is too fast for his mere super saiyan, but still not worth the effort of blue. As we've already seen, Goku's blue kaioken times ten was even faster than the rabbit two sagas ago in relation to how they deal with time skip, but doing that hurts a lot, is tiring and Jiren's over there hardly moving, so least possible effort it is.

Rumsshi Not Knowing Goku Played A Part in Saving His Life, And The Gods Not Knowing That He Saved All Of The Timelines

• Why don't the gods know about how Goku saved all of the timelines minus Future! Trunks' by pushing the summon Zeno button? They obviously don't since they are treating him like a villain. Rumsshi clearly doesn't even know that Goku played a part in saving his life. If he did, he wouldn't be jerring him like everyone else. Did nobody ask about Future! Zeno? Did nobody want to know why there are now 2 of them? Did they not ask for the full story? I know that they are afraid of him, but do they really fear that he would erase them just for asking a question? Did none of the angels ask the Great Priest? Did the gods not ask their angels? Did Rumsshi Not ask Gowasu what happened to Zamasu? Did the creation of a new time ring not get any attention? Why didn't Gowasu or Beerus bring any of this up when everyone was calling Goku the bad guy?
  • For all they know, Goku brought them more trouble by having two Zeno exist on a single timeline. And the whole Zamasu thing would also not blow to nearly the same proportions if it was not for universe 7 stuff (Goku basically taunting Zamasu's pride with their sparring match being the action that led him to actually going rogue), so for all they care Goku merely cleaned up after his own mess that one time.
  • In the manga, Rumsshi knows about it and is pissed at Beerus and Gowasu for what happened. Beerus because Rumsshi thinks he owes him something, and Gowasu for letting this happen.

Rumors? It APPEARS To Be Jiren?

• In a universe lies a mortal even a God of Destruction can't defeat. It appears that the rumors are true, and that mortal is Jiren. What rumors?! Whis already knew that the God of Destruction of the universe he was talking about beat Beerus in arm wrestling, so he should know what universe that mortal comes from. If Jiren is the strongest mortal from that universe, it should DEFFINATELY be him. Whis and Beerus should both know the mortal, or at least know for sure what universe he is from. Why is Whis now treating it like a rumor when he previously stated it like it was a fact?
  • Because he never saw any proof that Jiren was on par with a God of Destruction, he had only heard about it. So, no matter how trustworthy his source might be, until then it was still jsut hearsay.
  • This is also a case of needing a perfect translation and being certain your source is accurate. Because Whis tells us about a universe that even a God of Destruction can't defeat doesn't mean that Jiren being stronger than his specific Go D makes him that mortal. He can beat eight out of twelve in theory but what about the four who didn't even show up to this shindig?

Frieza's Interest About Ultra Instinct

• Out of all of everybody who were shocked to see Goku's duel with Jiren with his Ultra Instinct form, Frieza is the only fighter who is unfazed by the duel but rather find it "interesting". Shortly after Goku's defeat by Jiren, not only Frieza does the unthinkable by both saving Goku and healing his longtime rival by giving his energy to him, he also tells Goku about the Ultra Instinct that the Gods fears so much and even entrusts him to beat Jiren with that ultimate form again. Exactly what part of the Ultra Instinct garners Frieza's curiosity?
  • Freeza definitely wants to overpower the gods, and the Ultra Instinct form is the only thing that visibly gets them scared. And, seeing how this doesn't seem to be a Saiyan transformation, but something anyone can go through, Freeza probably expects to learn the form himself by watching Goku use it.
• Freeza only wants to fight people he can beat, and knows Jiren isn't one of them. He wants Goku to do something special that knocks Jiren out of the picture, so Freeza can get his body back and get to rebuilding his empire.

Jiren's overconfidence - not eliminating Kale and Goku?

• He makes his speech that no one in the arena is worthy of fighting him and goes back to meditating, reserving a special condescending look for Goku, who's pissed at Jiren's arrogance. Earlier, he could have eliminated Kale, but just knocked her out, which in turn ended up eliminating most of the Pride Troopers. And there's Goku right in plain sight, barely hanging on, who at this point could be swatted away like a fly. He also has Frieza and quite a few other fighters left to deal with. His universe's survival is at stake and he has the right to be pissed about it. If he wants to, he could end it all in seconds. Toppo and Dyspo may be strong, but Jiren's saved them twice already, so they're all depending on him now. Why would he bring Honor Before Reason at this time?
  • Just a theory, but I think Jiren's power has some sort of "catch" that he keeps under wraps by just fighting sporadically. Maybe he needs meditation to actually fight at full power, and if he kept fighting he might risk being knocked out himself.
  • It seems to literally be Jiren's code that he only fights opponents strong enough to warrant any use of power on his part. Kale's rampage, Goku, etc; he literally just steps in and takes them out, but whether they're ringed-out or left unconscious (and weak), he doesn't appear to care. It's the standard case of arrogance, believing that once dealt with, nothing can become a threat anymore; just on a hero-ish character instead of a villain. And while the universes are on the line, there's still time on the clock; he can afford to let them stick around in a weak state, or so he thinks. Once the clock starts kicking down a lot more and opponents who threaten him are still hanging around, when he could've eliminated them earlier, it'll be his fault but he won't realize it (or possibly care). Or similar stuff like that anyway
    • That's an interesting interpretation. They are called the Pride Troopers, after all.
    • Different troper here, but that still doesn't make sense. It's one thing to assume that nobody in the arena is a threat to him, and another to assume they're not a threat to his team. If Jiren was the last Pride Trooper standing and any other team had two members by the end of the time limit then he and his entire universe would get erased. Assuming events will unfold in his favor regardless of his participation is more fatalistic thinking than arrogance.
• Jiren wants the other pride troopers eliminated. He doesn't want them seriously hurt or anything, but he's the only one who he thinks should be using the super dragon balls, and is willing to risk the elimination of his universe for it. Consider Toppo had a zero tolerance "evil must die" attitude and only got colder as a result of the tournament, it's not hard to guess Jiren's motivations.

The Saiyans Ability To Get Stronger After Recovery

• In the Daizenshuu, it was stated that after the Frieza Saga, the power boosts that Saiyans got after recovering from near death got small (though it's not clarified if it means that the increases were actually not as much as they used to be or if they simply didn't mean much compared to how powerful the Saiyans and their foes were now (Goku's increase from 90000 to 3000000 seems like a lot, but a 2910000 increase wouldn't mean much when they already have power levels of over 150 million). By the Buu Saga, they seemed to have stopped altogether (the last time one was mentioned was when Cell came back from near death), as Super Buu states that Gohan's power did not increase after getting healed by Dende. The Super manga elaborates on this by saying that after reaching a certain point, the power boosts stop, as Trunks comes to this conclusion after Vegeta shows no increase in power after being nearly killed by Black and healed. My question is, if the power boosts have stopped for Gohan, Goku, and Vegeta, why did Black keep getting them? A major plot point was that Black was getting them, why? Why was Black able to get stronger like that when he was using Goku's body if Goku (who Trunks concluded could also not experience the boosts anymore) couldn't?
  • There might be a simple limit to how many times it can happen. Goku and Vegeta have been mauled so many times now that their bodies are as strong as they're going to get, where as Black is in the body of a Pre-Cell Saga Goku.
    • Uh... No. The Goku whose body he stole was still a post Universe 6 Saga one. Goten is present, and Goku is a farmer, whereas he didn't have a job until the Ox King's castle burned down. If it was a pre Cell Saga Goku, Goten wouldn't be there and Goku wouldn't have a job.
  • It seemed to me that Black's power-ups were more a result of Zamasu getting used to Goku's body, rather than the Saiyan boost. Why it only seems to happen when he takes a beating is a little weird (maybe he can only really overcome his limited control by putting the body through the pressure of fighting strong foes), but even the specifics of it are a bit different from the usual, as he often gets stronger mid-fight rather than after recovering from injury. Assuming Super Saiyan Rose is just a corrupted version of Blue, even his transformation is just him learning to do something that body had already been physically trained to do.
    • In chapter 20 of the manga at least, Vegeta directly states that Black is exploiting the Saiyans ability to get stronger after injury. This is said in the exact same chapter where Trunks says that Goku and Vegeta can't get those boosts anymore. Yeah, what?
    • I just went back to said chapter, and Black himself corroborates what I said above, in a way. He says he wasn't able to tap into Goku's body's full power when he stole it (he couldn't even turn Super Saiyan), but then used the Zenkai boosts, not to make the body stronger, but to make himself more acclimated to it. So, yeah, it's described as a Zenkai boost, but it retcons what a Zenkai boost really is. His body is not getting any stronger from that, he's just getting more capable of using the power that is already there. Meanwhile, Goku and Vegeta already use their bodies at full potential, so they can't get any more boosts. In short, the Zenkai was changed from "the Saiyan's body becomes stronger after they're fatally injured" to "a Saiyan doesn't naturally have access to 100% of their own capabilities, and the percentage they can access increases any time they're brought to the brink of death".
  • It seems impossible that the Zenkais have ceased to exist and might be poor dialogue writing. If that was the case, the Saiyans wouldn't be getting stronger even in training like they used to, which they still are. The Zenkais in Namek Saga were too huge to be logical and such massive increases haven't been seen before or since. But it's definitely there, but it's overall role in the plot is now no longer significant (in fact that was the case after the Namek Saga), with most of the power boosts coming through new transformations. Now Goku's Super Saiyan may not have become that much stronger despite 7 years of after life training, but Goku and Vegeta both felt that Cell's level was nothing to be worried about while fighting Babidi (and this was before we knew both of them could go Super Saiyan 2). For example, Goku as a Super Saiyan 3 in Buu Saga is well over 1000x stronger than the Frieza saga (as the Kais who were easily beaten by Kid Buu were at least that strong), so an assumption of around 5000x is not inaccurate. Taking Super Saiyan 2 as a 2x and SSJ3 as a 4x multiplier as per Toriyama, this means his base form alone is 12.5x stronger than his initial Super Saiyan on Namek, so his current Super Saiyan (and his base form) has become 625 times stronger in the 11 years between the Frieza and Buu Sagas. The humans have simply not been able to keep up with this kind of increase. So it's definitely a sign the writers aren't thinking it through.
    • None of that proves they are still getting those boosts. All of those increases could just be from training. In order for it to be proven as one of those boosts, they would have to seemingly get stronger after a beating without having time to train between the beating and the next fight.

Fusion Gender Issues

• So what happens if a male and female fuse with each other? One might have assumed that it wasn't possible until the Universe 7 Supreme Kai suggested having 17 & 18 fuse after witnessing the Kefla fusion. Krillin is clearly disturbed by the idea, but neither he nor anyone else outright calls attention to the question of their... um... anatomy. Also, and this is a bit of a weird thought, but what happens if one or both of the fusion partners are pregnant? What happens to the unborn child?
  • The result would probably be an hermaphrodite, in case of two mortals fusing (we see a case of a god fusing with an opposite-gender mortal, and it seems like the god's gender prevails, much like the personality in general). Not that it would matter much, anyways, as the fusion is a temporary thing that is only really used for combat.
  • Have they retconned the thing about Old Kai being the fusion of a kai and a witch? If that's still canon than it implies that it would be one or the other. Or that Old Kai is a hermaphrodite.
    • ... The guy above literally just explained that in the case of Kai fusions, the gender and personality of the Kai seems to prevail. Otherwise, it would probably be a hermaphrodite.
• Fusions had show that one of the fusees is the Dominant one, and the other is just an addition. Vegetto has Vegetta as the dominant (otherwise, he woulnd't reffer as a fusion of Vegeta and Kakarotto, but Vegeta and Goku) Piccolo was the dominant in all his fusions, and Caulifla was the dominant in Kefla. Should a male and a female fuse, the result would be the dominant gender, and some quirk of the lesser part
• A true hermaphrodite is not possible in humans(no space for both sets), however, something like balls intruding inwards and pushing out ovaries might happen, larger upper body with breasts, super hairy cellulite, not a pretty sight, but it's a combat transformation not fashion statement, right?

What happened to Saiyan Beyond God?

• I thought of it as Base Saiyan God, from where turning into a Super Saiyan would result in Super Saiyan Blue. From it's performance, it was a league above Super Saiyan 3 or even Mystic Gohan. But after the fight against Freeza and Goku Black using it, we never see it again. Even in the tournament of power, it was never seen again. Against Jiren, Goku goes straight to Super Saiyan God. And it got Retconned in the manga too. What happened?
  • This "form" was weird and inconsistent from day one, I imagine they just retconned it into being their actual base form, when powered up to the limit, and thus weaker than any of the actual transformations.

Immortality granted via the regular Dragon Balls

• I know they are from different continuities, but Garlic Jr. and Future Zamasu both wished for immortality, GJ with regular Dragon Balls, and FZ with Super Dragon Balls. Both gained regenerative abilities, but Future Zamasu could not feel pain, while Garlic Jr. could. In addition, GJ's regeneration seemed slower than FZ's (it took him longer to regenerate the hole in his chest from Gohan than it took FZ to regenerate any of his wounds). Zamasu was able to live without a body. At one point in the GJ Saga, Piccolo and Krillin try to hold GJ in place while Gohan blasts him, and in the Japanese version, Piccolo hopes for Gohan to blast him away completely so he can't regenerate. GJ breaks free before the blast hits, so we don't know if it would have worked. This makes me wonder, is GJ being able to feel pain and having a slower regeneration rate because he used regular Dragon Balls, or is it just because he and Zamasu are from different continuities? What would happen if someone used the regular Dragon Balls in the Super continuity? Would they get the full package like FZ, or would they have limits? What would happen if someone with immortality granted by regular Dragon Balls got vaporized? Would they end up like Zamasu?
  • As far as them suffering pain goes, I think it has more to do that Zamasu is actually still, at the end of the day, a fighter. He's worked hard to get where he was, and is probably pretty used to pain. Garlic Jr. is far less so. It probably still hurts for Future Zamasu to take hits, but he can actually roll with the punches, as opposed to Garlic Jr. who is just not used to the pain.

The Pride Troopers and Belmod attitude towards Jiren

• At least in the anime, The Pride Troopers and Belmod seem to feel pity toward Jiren, but, why do they still consider him his friend if Jiren is such an asshole in response? After all, Jiren never helped them, he called Toppo pathetic, among other things. Why do they still hang out with him?
  • He knocked out Kale during her rampage, and ringed out Maji Kayo when he was threatening Dypso- it's not a lot, but it's not 'never' helped them, and he still is a Pride Trooper. And as far as insulting Toppo, that could just be his personal opinion to Toppo sacrificing the ideals he valued; friends, even the aloof kind, can express disappointment to each other when they do ill-advised decisions. As for why they hang out, it seems a lot like our heroes hanging out with Vegeta, who even now refuses to sugarcoat his opinions, and yet they no longer have any real issues with him.
  • Holding Jiren back was Toppo's decision. And the others seemed pretty shocked that he would be so harsh with Toppo so it clearly something unusual from him, and indeed he's never shown to be rude to any of the others. Toppo just really seemed to touch a nerve for whatever reason. Apart from him he's only rude to Goku (who he likely thinks is to blame for all this), and Hit (who kills people for money!). As far as Superheroes go he's no worse than 90's era batman, who most of the Justice League were actively terrified of.

Being in Universe 11 even stronger then Jiren

• Episode 127 reveals that there is yet another being that is stronger then even Jiren! In Jiren's backstory, the being utterly wipes the floor with Jiren even when he attempted to fight it with the help of his teacher and teammates. Considering Jiren's performance, it is not a stretch to think that whoever it is that beat Jiren is on the level of an angel or beyond. Since it attacked Jiren's village, it possibly also resides in Universe 11, so why did Belmod not seek out this being to fight in the tournament of power as well?
  • Jiren was a teenager back then, in fact he barely even looks like that. Said Bad Guy is likely long, long dead. I mean you might as well recruit King Piccolo.
  • There's also the fact that this being was stronger than Jiren at the time. Considering Jiren has no doubt gotten much stronger since then, who knows how they compare now (and also, assuming it was still alive)?
  • There's an entry on the WMG page that the evil force that killed Jiren's family & friends may have been Belmod himself in an effort to manipulate Jiren to become stronger (Jiren being his first choice for replacement). Not saying I agree with that WMG, but that would be a reason. Though the more likely explanation is that Jiren did eventually kill the thing.
  • Assuming the evil doer is still alive and Jiren still hasn't managed to kill it, and that it isn't Belmod, it could be that Belmod recognized that putting Jiren on a team with the thing that killed all his friends and family would be a bad idea, and unlike the other Gods of Destruction, Belmod can't actually boss Jiren around & make him do something he doesn't want to do. Belmod is also described a being a God of Destruction who believes in Justice and opposes evil, so he's likely opposed to this other entity as well. And if it is still stronger than Jiren, that means it's stronger than Belmod & therefore beyond his ability to control.
  • Also a possibility is that this being is that they are less an entity and more something like a force of nature that absolutely cannot be controlled (think of Pure Buu). Recruiting that into a team-based tournament is already a dangerous idea, one with rules even more so, and one with the prize being a wish on the Dragon Balls? VERY bad idea.
• Considering almost every villain of consequence in Dragon Ball ever since the Crane Hermit (since when was there a rival school to Roshi's?) has been some manner of left field, there could be any number of reasons why something could be stronger than Jiren and not be around for the tournament of power. The existence of shadowy mirror demon realms, an after life we've only seen some bits and pieces of, an unexplored timeline and a stretch of infinite void outside of the universe pairs where any number of things could be hiding makes the existence of such more plausible as the series goes on before you consider "dragon balls did it".

Android 17 self-destructing

• How did 17 self-destruct when both his and his sister's bombs were removed by Shenron back at the end of the Cell Games?
  • He self-destructed himself with an energy-based attack, similar to Vegeta's Final Explosion, Cell's own 'Unforgiveable' self-destruction, and so on. Though he actually survived it.

Why the ring wasn't made indestructible?

• During the tournament, the central pillar that is used as a countdown doesn't suffer any scratch despite the violence of the fights. Why the rest of the ring (that wasn't supposed to be destroyed during this tournament) wasn't build the same way?
  • The central pillar seems to be made from the same material as the rest of the arena (which is supposed to be nearly-indestructible, but that's not the first time we've seen "indestructible" materials being easily broken in Dragon Ball). It going undamaged is probably just for the sake of convenience, since it also serves as the clock.

Why didn't Bulma use Jaco's help in locating Namek?

• The actual reason is obvious (Jaco the Galactic Patrolman wouldn't exist for well over 20 years yet) but is there any real in-universe reason for why Bulma never bothered getting Jaco's help? He would probably know where Namek was.
• Does Bulma know how to contact Jaco? They had a hard enough time talking to each other when they knew where planets were. Sure, get North Kaio's telepathy or the dragon balls involved, but if you go that far why bother with Jaco?
  • It's also possible that Namek is outside Jaco's jurisdiction (Jaco: "Once again, Galactic Patrol only covers the south side of the galaxy.") So even if he knew where Namek was, he isn't authorized to buzz on over there.

How is Master Roshi fighting with Jiren equally?

• So, in the latest manga chapter, it seems as if Master Roshi is fighting with Jiren pretty adequately, dodging blows and returning a few of his own. What. WHAT?! Seriously, how is that possible? How is it literally possible that Master Roshi, who was only ever presented as being a moon buster who is like hypersonic at his best, and who had lamented how he'd fallen to the wayside during the Cell Saga, now keeping up with and somehow countering a being reportedly stronger than even a God of Destruction that, within the context of the manga, doesn't need a spaceship to travel between planets? The initial scans imply that Master Roshi might have somehow mastered Ultra Instinct, but that is a far worse explanation! Ultra Instinct is the technique of the gods, known only to the Angels and taught to their respective gods, so there is no way Master Roshi should know this! How? Why? This makes no sense!
  • They speculated that he was using Ultra Instinct... but in reality, he wasn't. More like the next closest thing: being able to read your opponent's moves, and thus being able to dodge them before they've even thrown the blows themselves. Like Roshi vs. Ganos from the anime, where the latter was faster/stronger yet Roshi was untouchable (until the gap became too much), but taken to the extreme.
  • It's possible that Muten Roshi is simply skilled enough to recognize that Jiren's style is very rigid, and reads movements and body language well enough to keep evading and leading hits in the holes.
  • Roshi had 300 years of experience. Enough to recognize the combat style of other fighters.

Why doesn't Black/Zamasu use the Kaioken?

• Goku Black's body was a Goku after learning how to use the Kaioken and Super Saiyan Blue. So how come he never tries to use it in battle? Even if he doesn't want to risk it since the Goku from his timeline never mastered it or just doesn't want to worry about the strain on his body, why doesn't Merged Zamasu use it? As far as he knows he has Complete Immortality, and even after getting mutated he'd be more likely to avoid being mortally wounded and worsening his condition. As a fusion he'd have all of Black's techniques, so why doesn't Merged Zamasu tried to use Kaioken while he believes it doesn't put a strain on his body or in desperation later in the battle?
  • Most likely, a combination of off-the-charts arrogance and insanity. Believing himself to be the supreme god of everything, he believes nothing is above him and nothing can get above him... even when he's being beaten, he retains this viewpoint as he descends further into madness, and never truly makes an effort to avoid blows; just take them, because he believes he's immortal. If he were thinking rationally, perhaps he would have used it in desperation (especially because it is a god's technique), but he was nowhere near rational at any point.

Why didn't anyone think to just take the Time Ring off Goku Black's/Zamasu's finger?

• The heroes would only have to deal with one Zamasu (albeit an immortal one) if they simply took off Goku Black's Time Ring, thus erasing him from existence. Heck, they could have taken it off Fusion Zamasu's finger as well, then Infinite Zamasu (both the anime and manga versions) wouldn't even exist and there would be no need for Future Zeno to erase the Future Trunks timeline.
  • There's no doubt that that was an option, but there's a few simple reasons why it was never attempted. 1) This is a shounen series, where drawn-out fights are considered the main draw, and this is reflected in Goku and Vegeta's general attitudes; they quite prefer to end fights through, well fighting rather than 'tricks' like that, especially when the situation isn't life-or-death serious (and sometimes even then). 2) Goku Black is a No-Nonsense Nemesis, so virtually any attempts to go straight for the ring would quickly end in failure, unless they had beaten him to a weakened state first (which never fully happened). 3) Even as Fused Zamasu, his strength remained too much for them to forcibly remove it, particularly since he nearly always kept his fist closed during battle, which was also true of Goku Black.
  • Same reason why no one thinks to just cut off Goku Black's head. He doesn't want them to, so it ain't gonna happen.

Why wasn't Goku Black the final main villain?

• Yes, I know this is a silly question, but in every other Dragonball show, the third and final villain was always an evil version of another character. In the first three series, the third and final main villains were King Piccolo, the evil Majin Buu, and the evil Shenrons. One of the main villains is an evil version of another character, but why wasn't he the third and final villain like all the other shows? Also, why was this the only show where Krillin didn't die? Did they just want to mix it up this time?
  • That thinking is kinda backwards. It's not that Piccolo Daimaoh and Kid Buu are "evil versions of another character", but that they became good after their defeat, which is a common Dragon Ball trope. That's specially true in Piccolo's case, since Piccolo Jr is the de facto final Dragon Ball villain (he was fully intending on killing Goku and resuming his father's work during that tournament), and later became good mostly because of Gohan.
    • What I meant was that Piccolo Daimao was an evil version of Kami (literally the evil part of him) and I don't consider Piccolo to be the final main villain as he didn't even kill anyone. Also, Kid Buu is an evil version of another character. Fat Buu was the one who reformed and the later forms of Buu were literally manifestations of his evil. Unless of course, you're referring to Uub.
• Pretty much. They also figured that the finale being a literal life-or-death tournament battle royale with all the universes would be much more interesting than Goku and friends battling an evil version of Goku (or, rather, Zamasu using Goku's body.)
  • Did they even know it was the final arc? Maybe they had future plans, but found out midway through production of the tournament saga that the show was ending and had to wrap it all up?

Piccolo power level

• Piccolo was able to fight and defeat SSJ2 Gohan, and compete decently against Ultimate Gohan. Ultimate Gohan even overpowered SSJ2 Goku and competed with SSB Goku. Yet Piccolo can't handle final form Frost, who is much weaker than SSJ Goku and Vegeta just a little before this?
  • Gohan isn't a very good fighter, despite his massive power. This is proven quite conclusively when he's beaten by Krillin (under tournament rules, but still). Frost on the other hand is quite skilled, even if he can't compete physically with the top dogs.

Frieza's troubled resurrection

• Why did Shenlong claim Frieza could only be resurrected as the pile of pieces Trunks cut him into? Characters like Chiaotzu have previously come back from worse without draconic comment. Yes, Chiaotzu was resurrected with Kami's Dragon Balls and Sorbet was using Dende's to raise Frieza, but Dende's Dragon Balls never require an intact body for anyone else (including the entire human race after their transformation into candy and consumption). King Kai has no body left, and he doesn't seem to think there's any impediment to his resurrection other than the Z Warriors repeatedly forgetting to do it.
  • The "resurrected in the same status they died at" only applies for resurrection wishes that happen at least one year after the death. So Frieza gets resurrected as chunks of meat and metal because he died several years before, and Chiaotzu, Krillin and King Kai get their bodies back because they were resurrected before a year passes. However, that brings up the question as to why Frieza could be resurrected in the first place, as the result of the wish (Frieza being alive while in pieces) implies he only died when Trunks destroyed the pieces with an energy blast.

Frieza in the afterlife

• How do the bureaucrats of afterlife manage Frieza? Prior to his first resurrection the only divine character that we know of who could subdue and entrap him is maybe the Supreme Kai, and after that no one. How did they manage to get him into a cocoon twice? King Yemma mentions having to personally subdue Raditz, so it seems unlikely they can simply do whatever they please with people's souls.

How did Future Zamasu and Goku Black handle the future Universes 2 and 11?

• Okay, they could generally bypass Gods of Destruction by killing a universe's Supreme Kai instead. But Pell, the Supreme Kai of Universe 2, is a powerhouse fighter in his own right and supposedly the strongest Kai ever in terms of fighting ability. Even if that wasn't enough to beat them, surely he'd be strong enough that they can't just oneshot him. Meaning he'd have an opportunity to use Kai Kai and teleport away to Heles. And no way can a Goku Black who hasn't even unlocked Super Saiyan yet stand up to a God(dess) of Destruction in direct combat.
• And in Universe 11, Belmod the God of Destruction and Khai the Supreme Kai are presented as actually being friends, so they'd be in each other's presence more often than the Supreme Kai and God of Destruction of other universes. Plus the added danger (that the arrogant Zamasu would be completely unaware of) that Universe 11 has mortals who are already God of Destruction level (Top) or even stronger (Jiren).

How is Moro so slow?

• Goku and Vegeta spent three days after being defeated before waking up. Yet in that amount of time, Moro only collected three Dragon Balls and was about to steal a fourth. He can sense ki, and Dodoria once commented that Namek was a small planet. If Moro is so slow, how did he even touch Vegeta and Goku, even with his ability to absorb energy?
  • He didn't need to touch them to defeat them. The energy absorption was passive and worked at a distance, without the two even realizing it at first. As for collecting the Dragonballs, perhaps he was just taking his time due to believing there was no one around who could threaten him.

Future Trunks' timeline - two Future Trunks??

• How can there be two Future Trunks in the timeline where Future Zen'o destroyed Future Zamasu without causing a Time Paradox? Is this a Timey-Wimey Ball thing, as I know the rules are inconsistent for Dragon Ball franchise in general. On the recap page for the Future Trunks Arc it says with regard to Close-Enough Timeline: "The timeline Whis creates for Future Trunks and Future Mai to live in after their own has to be destroyed to kill Fusion Zamasu once and for all. Other than Future Beerus taking care of Future Zamasu early (meaning Fusion Zamasu will never exist to become the Eldritch Abomination that necessitated Zen'O to destroy the timeline), the main difference is there will now be two Mais and two Trunkses should the two of them choose to go there. Both consider this acceptable."
  • Because that probably isn't how time travel in the DBZ universe works. When Trunk time travels he's actually just creating an alternate timeline. So assumedly, both future Trunks are just alternate versions of themselves in the same universe.

Just kill Jiren

• Honestly despite it working out the heros do the worst possible things to combat Jiren in the tournament. There was a timer and if the three just spread out to opposite ends they could play keep away. More importantly they never bring up trying to kill Jiren. I know Goku wouldn't have gone for it but 17 would likely be on board. This is important to address because sure you get disqualified for killing. However what they ultimately do in the end eliminates two members of the team instead of just one. I know Frieza tried to kill him once but that was out of sheer rage and frustration, not tactical thought.
  • You’re making the classical Dragonball mistake of underestimating the opponent. Jiren was so powerful that he gave even Ultra Instinct Goku trouble. If Frieza and 17 both decided then and there to just kill the guy and get it over with, Jiren would give them a hell of a fight. Hell, that’s what he did even when they WEREN’T trying to kill him.

Three fighters in same universe remaining at the end.

• Did anything in the rules say what would happen with multiple winners or even a potential draw? Hypothetically what happens when Goku, 17 and Frieza pull off some crazy attack that succeeds in eliminating Jiren but all three of them are still in. Given the gaps in power between universes and more importantly the numbers game it should have gone down that way.
  • If it were just one universe, then it would be a victory no matter if it were just the sole member or the whole team. Multiple? Zeno probably wouldn’t be satisfied with a draw so he’d likely extend the time until there was an assured victor. He hadn’t exactly restrained himself from bending rules before.

Time Rings

• If time rings materialize to aid the Kais in correcting or overseeing new timelines because of significant time traveling actions, why don't new rings appear when existing rings are stolen and/or used? I feel like this question is WMG itself because the scenario I'm leaning to in my mind is that it would only be because the rings compensate for spontaneous mortal actions of time altering, but when they materialize they are of divine origin so it's all taken into account :/ lol

Humbling themselves before Zeno

• Why do the Supreme Kais bow all the way to the ground while the Go D only bow at the waist? While the Go Ds are waaaay more powerful then the Supreme Kais, they are suppose to be equals. So why don't the Go Ds also have to humble themselves as much as the Supreme Kais do?
  • Fear, perhaps?
  • I feel the purpose and role of the Go D's requires that they never humble themselves too much. Making the Angels their subordinates for instance, despite the power gap.
  • You answered it yourself. The Go Ds are more powerful than the Supreme Kais, and Zeno is their *boss*. They’re only equal in terms of ‘if Supreme Kai dies, the Go D dies.’

Returning to an absent future

• So The Zeno from Future!Trunks' timeline comes in, wipes out Zamasu and the multiverse along with him, leaving nothing behind but a void that even he can't get out of without a rescue from Goku. Alright. So what exactly are Future!Trunks and Mai supposed to be returning to? Why wouldn't they stay in the present with everyone else that's currently alive?
  • If I recall, they were being sent to an alternate version of their world, where they’d have to spend the rest of their lives dodging that world’s version of themselves.

Arale vs. Vegeta

• Perhaps the most important fight of the series. Anyways, why after following the rules of 80s gag manga by tricking Arale into looking the other way, does he immediately screw the rules and kick her? Really, Vegeta may be intensely Genre Savvy but even he should've known that would backfire.
• How does one even defeat an 80s gag manga character? Keep making them go on pointless journeys? Making them slip on banana peels?
  • Be the writer.

Mr. Satan's tall tales

• In "Z", Mr. Satan keeps insisting that Cell's powers are just tricks and that there's no such thing. In "Super", he claims that he defeated a supernatural being by using supernatural powers of his own. In both cases, people believe him. Does no one see the contradiction?
  • Yes. The entire point of Mr. Satan being the world champion and the protector of Earth is that people really are gullible enough to trust anything and everything he says.

Zamasu Attacking Future Trunk’s World

• So it’s established that Zamasu stole Goku’s body from one timeline, then he…goes to Future Trunk’s timeline after he murders Goku, Goten, and Chi-Chi? Why? Why not just destroy the world he’s already in rather than going to an entirely different timeline?