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** One reason Herodotus was called a liar for centuries was that he claimed to visit Babylon, but didn't mention its famous Hanging Gardens, one of the UsefulNotes/SevenWondersOfTheWorld, even once. Today, many historians believe that the Gardens were fictional, or an exaggeration of a structure that may not be in Babylon but some other city, like Nineveh.



* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corroborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history, and he prefaces the entire thing by encouraging the readers to keep an open mind and only consider this ''his'' findings.

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* VindicatedByHistory: VindicatedByHistory:
**
''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corroborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history, and he prefaces the entire thing by encouraging the readers to keep an open mind and only consider this ''his'' findings.findings.
** One alleged "lie" was that Herodotus claimed to visit Babylon, but didn't mention its famous Hanging Gardens, one of the UsefulNotes/SevenWondersOfTheWorld, even once. Today, many historians believe that the Gardens were fictional, or an exaggeration of a structure that may not be in Babylon but some other city, like Nineveh.
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** One reason Herodotus was called a liar for centuries was that he claimed to visit Babylon, but didn't mention its famous Hanging Gardens, one of the SevenWondersOfTheWorld, even once. Today, many historians believe that the Gardens were fictional, or an exaggeration of a structure that may not be in Babylon but some other city, like Nineveh.

to:

** One reason Herodotus was called a liar for centuries was that he claimed to visit Babylon, but didn't mention its famous Hanging Gardens, one of the SevenWondersOfTheWorld, UsefulNotes/SevenWondersOfTheWorld, even once. Today, many historians believe that the Gardens were fictional, or an exaggeration of a structure that may not be in Babylon but some other city, like Nineveh.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
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** One reason Herodotus was called a liar for centuries was that he claimed to visit Babylon, but didn't mention its famous Hanging Gardens, one of the SevenWonderOfTheWorld, even once. Today, many historians believe that the Gardens were fictional, or an exaggeration of a structure that may not be in Babylon but some other city, like Nineveh.

to:

** One reason Herodotus was called a liar for centuries was that he claimed to visit Babylon, but didn't mention its famous Hanging Gardens, one of the SevenWonderOfTheWorld, SevenWondersOfTheWorld, even once. Today, many historians believe that the Gardens were fictional, or an exaggeration of a structure that may not be in Babylon but some other city, like Nineveh.

Added: 891

Changed: 545

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* {{Misblamed}}: Herodotus often catches heat for reporting fantastical stories as if they were fact, especially by the disciples and/or proponents of {{Creator/Thucydides}}. In fact, Herodotus is often quite skeptical of many such stories for which he cannot find corroborating evidence, and rarely fails to note such in ''The Histories''; he simply believes that it is the historian's role to report his findings regardless of what they might be and then apply critical thinking to them rather than ''only'' to report what he can conclusively call the truth.

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* {{Misblamed}}: {{Misblamed}}:
**
Herodotus often catches heat for reporting fantastical stories as if they were fact, especially by the disciples and/or proponents of {{Creator/Thucydides}}. In fact, Herodotus is often quite skeptical of many such stories for which he cannot find corroborating evidence, and rarely fails to note such in ''The Histories''; he simply believes that it is the historian's role to report his findings regardless of what they might be and then apply critical thinking to them rather than ''only'' to report what he can conclusively call the truth. truth.
** One reason Herodotus was called a liar for centuries was that he claimed to visit Babylon, but didn't mention its famous Hanging Gardens, one of the SevenWonderOfTheWorld, even once. Today, many historians believe that the Gardens were fictional, or an exaggeration of a structure that may not be in Babylon but some other city, like Nineveh.
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* CommonKnowledge: That Herodotus should be called the "Father of Lies" because he reported countless fantastical stories in ''The Histories'' as if they were fact. In reality, while there are fantastical stories in the work, Herodotus often prefaces them by stating his own skepticism and encourages readers to make their own conclusions. Several of the questioned stories have in fact been determined to refer to reality, even though garbled by GossipEvolution. If anything Herodotus deserves to be praised as a honest, fair reporter of stories told to him by other people, who are the ones that may be inaccurate.
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* MagnificentBastard: In "King Rhampsinitos and the Thief", [[NoNameGiven The Thief]] is a daring rogue who, together with his brother, steals from the royal treasury. Eventually, his brother is caught in a trap and convinces him to give him a MercyKill. King Rhampsinitos hangs the dead body on the wall, but the Thief, implored by his mother, tricks and souses the royal guards and brings the body home for burial. When the king sends his daughter into the city to find the Thief, the latter figures out that scheme. His chief wish now being to outmaneuver the king, he meets with the princess and confesses everything to her – only to escape via yet another prearranged trick when she tries to seize him. Now [[WorthyOpponent impressed]] by such resourcefulness, Rhampsinitos vows to pardon and reward the Thief, so the Thief comes to the palace, tells the king his entire story, and [[StandardHeroReward is given the princess's hand in marriage]]. Cunning and quick-thinking, the Thief is [[KarmaHoudini never brought to justice for his stealing]] and becomes the king's son-in-law by sheer RefugeInAudacity.

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* MagnificentBastard: In "King Rhampsinitos and the Thief", [[NoNameGiven The the Thief]] is a daring rogue who, together with his brother, steals from the royal treasury. Eventually, his brother is caught in a trap and convinces him to give him a MercyKill. King Rhampsinitos hangs the dead body on the wall, but the Thief, implored by his mother, tricks and souses the royal guards and brings the body home for burial. When the king sends his daughter into the city to find the Thief, the latter figures out that scheme. His chief wish now being to outmaneuver the king, he meets with the princess and confesses everything to her – only to escape via yet another prearranged trick when she tries to seize him. Now [[WorthyOpponent impressed]] by such resourcefulness, Rhampsinitos vows to pardon and reward the Thief, so the Thief comes to the palace, tells the king his entire story, and [[StandardHeroReward is given the princess's hand in marriage]]. Cunning and quick-thinking, the Thief is [[KarmaHoudini never brought to justice for his stealing]] and becomes the king's son-in-law by sheer RefugeInAudacity.
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* MagnificentBastard: In "King Rhampsinitos and the Thief", [[NoNameGiven The Thief]] is a daring rogue who, together with his brother, steals from the royal treasury. Eventually, his brother is caught in a trap and convinces him to give him a MercyKill. King Rhampsinitos hangs the dead body on the wall, but the Thief, implored by his mother, tricks and souses the royal guards and brings the body home for burial. When the king sends his daughter into the city to find the Thief, the latter figures out that scheme. His chief wish now being to outmaneuver the king, he meets with the princess and confesses everything to her – only to escape via yet another prearranged trick when she tries to seize him. Now [[WorthyOpponent impressed]] by such resourcefulness, Rhampsinitos vows to pardon and reward the Thief, so the Thief comes to the palace, tells the king his entire story, and [[StandardHeroReward is given the princess's hand in marriage]]. Cunning and quick-thinking, the Thief is [[KarmaHoudini never brought to justice for his stealing]] and becomes the king's son-in-law by sheer RefugeInAudacity.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corroborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history.

to:

* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corroborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history.history, and he prefaces the entire thing by encouraging the readers to keep an open mind and only consider this ''his'' findings.

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Always Chaotic Evil is not YMMV. Fixing indentation. Random quotes are not examples.


* AlwaysChaoticEvil: Herodotus usually abstains from judging other cultures, but occasionally describes peoples as this, such as the cannibals from beyond the black sea.
* FairForItsDay: Herodotus notes an old Babylonian custom of betrothal - the prettiest girls were auctioned off to rich men for a lot of cash. The money then went towards subsidizing ugly and crippled girls, so that humble men would get paid for marrying them. There was also a quick and efficient mechanism for divorce, in case a couple did not get along. This was considered by Herodotus to be better than the alternatives - prostitution, crippled girls being unmarried, etc.

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* AlwaysChaoticEvil: Herodotus usually abstains from judging other cultures, but occasionally describes peoples as this, such as the cannibals from beyond the black sea.
* FairForItsDay:
FairForItsDay:
**
Herodotus notes an old Babylonian custom of betrothal - the prettiest girls were auctioned off to rich men for a lot of cash. The money then went towards subsidizing ugly and crippled girls, so that humble men would get paid for marrying them. There was also a quick and efficient mechanism for divorce, in case a couple did not get along. This was considered by Herodotus to be better than the alternatives - prostitution, crippled girls being unmarried, etc.



* SignatureScene: "The Hellenes who were waiting in this region [Thermopylae] were 300 Spartan hoplites, 1,000 men from Tegea and Mantineia, 120 from Orchimenos in Arcadia, and 1,000 from the rest of Arcadia. From Corinth there were 400 hoplites, from Phleious 200; and there were also 80 Mycenaeans... From Boeotia there were 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans. In addition to these, both the Opuntian Locrians, who had come full force, and 1,000 Phocoans had responded to the Greek call for assistance."
** "If you attack the Persians then a great empire will be destroyed."
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** Crowdsourced medical diagnosis, rather than relying solely on some specific profession of people - totally novel to Herodotus, but now we live in the age of Wiki/{{Wikipedia}}, [=WebMD=], etc.

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** Crowdsourced medical diagnosis, rather than relying solely on some specific profession of people - totally novel to Herodotus, but now we live in the age of Wiki/{{Wikipedia}}, Website/{{Wikipedia}}, [=WebMD=], etc.
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* ValuesDissonance: Quite apart from the ''numerous'' ways the ancient cultures' ideas of morality and proper conduct differ from our own, they often differ from one another. In fact, in many ways, Herodotus is an early proponent of the idea of judging cultures by their ''own'' traditions of right and wrong rather than one's own.

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* ValuesDissonance: Quite apart from the ''numerous'' ways the ancient cultures' ideas of morality and proper conduct differ from our own, they often differ from one another. In fact, in many ways, Herodotus is an early proponent of the modern anthropological idea of judging cultures by their ''own'' traditions of right and wrong rather than one's own.
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None

Added DiffLines:

* {{Misblamed}}: Herodotus often catches heat for reporting fantastical stories as if they were fact, especially by the disciples and/or proponents of {{Creator/Thucydides}}. In fact, Herodotus is often quite skeptical of many such stories for which he cannot find corroborating evidence, and rarely fails to note such in ''The Histories''; he simply believes that it is the historian's role to report his findings regardless of what they might be and then apply critical thinking to them rather than ''only'' to report what he can conclusively call the truth.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corraborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history.

to:

* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corraborated corroborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
Broken Base requires two sides


* BrokenBase: "I have now reached a point at which I am compelled to declare an opinion that will cause offense to many people, but which nevertheless appears to me to be true..." Herodotus was certain that he broke his base by stating that Athens was just as important, if not more important, than Sparta in fighting off the Persian invasion. As of his statements on many Other matters, such as the events leading to the Trojan War, may not have been base-breaking enough for macho bro Hellenes.
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Fixed misspelling.


** Crowdsourced medical diagnosis, rather than relying solely on some specific profession of people - totally novel to Herodotus, but now we live in the age of Wikipeda, [=WebMD=], etc.

to:

** Crowdsourced medical diagnosis, rather than relying solely on some specific profession of people - totally novel to Herodotus, but now we live in the age of Wikipeda, Wiki/{{Wikipedia}}, [=WebMD=], etc.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:


** HistoryMarchesOn: However, other claims have not really been borne out by later research, especially the numbers he cites. In particular, he or his sources seem to consistently exaggerate the number of Persians that invaded Greece; the best example of this is the battle of Plataea, which is described as a Greek force defeating a much larger Persian force through tactics, equipment and training. However, archaeological evidence suggests the two forces were fairly evenly matched, with some sources going so far to claim a slight numerical advantage in favor of the Greeks.

to:

** HistoryMarchesOn: However, other claims have not really been borne out by later research, especially the numbers he cites. In particular, he or his sources seem to consistently exaggerate the number of Persians that invaded Greece; the best example of this is the battle of Plataea, which is described as a Greek force defeating a much larger Persian force through tactics, equipment and training. However, archaeological evidence suggests the two forces were fairly evenly matched, with some sources going so far to claim a slight numerical advantage in favor of the Greeks.----
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None


* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corraborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history.

to:

* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corraborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history.history.
** HistoryMarchesOn: However, other claims have not really been borne out by later research, especially the numbers he cites. In particular, he or his sources seem to consistently exaggerate the number of Persians that invaded Greece; the best example of this is the battle of Plataea, which is described as a Greek force defeating a much larger Persian force through tactics, equipment and training. However, archaeological evidence suggests the two forces were fairly evenly matched, with some sources going so far to claim a slight numerical advantage in favor of the Greeks.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* ValuesDissonance: Quite apart from the ''numerous'' ways the ancient cultures' ideas of morality and proper conduct differ from our own, they often differ from one another. In fact, in many ways, Herodotus is an early proponent of the idea of judging cultures by their ''own'' traditions of right and wrong rather than one's own.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* SignatureScene: Something about three hundred or so soldier guys defeating an army of thousands or what not...

to:

* SignatureScene: Something about three hundred or so soldier guys defeating an army "The Hellenes who were waiting in this region [Thermopylae] were 300 Spartan hoplites, 1,000 men from Tegea and Mantineia, 120 from Orchimenos in Arcadia, and 1,000 from the rest of thousands or what not...Arcadia. From Corinth there were 400 hoplites, from Phleious 200; and there were also 80 Mycenaeans... From Boeotia there were 700 Thespians and 400 Thebans. In addition to these, both the Opuntian Locrians, who had come full force, and 1,000 Phocoans had responded to the Greek call for assistance."
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* BrokenBase: "I have now reached a point at which I am compelled to declare an opinion that will cause offense to many people, but which nevertheless appears to me to be true..." Herodotus was certain that he brke his base by stating that Athens was just as important, if not more important, than Sparta in fighting off the Persian invasion.

to:

* BrokenBase: "I have now reached a point at which I am compelled to declare an opinion that will cause offense to many people, but which nevertheless appears to me to be true..." Herodotus was certain that he brke broke his base by stating that Athens was just as important, if not more important, than Sparta in fighting off the Persian invasion.invasion. As of his statements on many Other matters, such as the events leading to the Trojan War, may not have been base-breaking enough for macho bro Hellenes.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* BrokenBase: "I have now reached a point at which I am compelled to declare an opinion that will cause offense to many people, but which nevertheless appears to me to be true..." Herodotus was certain that he brke his base by stating that Athens was just as important, if not more important, than Sparta in fighting off the Persian invasion.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

** Crowdsourced medical diagnosis, rather than relying solely on some specific profession of people - totally novel to Herodotus, but now we live in the age of Wikipeda, [=WebMD=], etc.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None


* FairForItsDay: Herodotus notes an old Babylonian custom of betrothal by which the dowries paid for the prettiest girls would subsidize marriages for the ugly and crippled. This was considered by Herodotus to be better than the alternatives - prostitution, crippled girls being unmarried, etc.

to:

* FairForItsDay: Herodotus notes an old Babylonian custom of betrothal by which the dowries paid for - the prettiest girls would subsidize marriages were auctioned off to rich men for the a lot of cash. The money then went towards subsidizing ugly and crippled.crippled girls, so that humble men would get paid for marrying them. There was also a quick and efficient mechanism for divorce, in case a couple did not get along. This was considered by Herodotus to be better than the alternatives - prostitution, crippled girls being unmarried, etc.

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Herodotus frequently states his opinion on virtue, goodness, etc., and therefore is not a moral relativist.


* AlwaysChaoticEvil: As a moral relativist, Herodotus usually abstains from judging other cultures, but occasionally describes peoples as this, such as the cannibals from beyond the black sea.

to:

* AlwaysChaoticEvil: As a moral relativist, Herodotus usually abstains from judging other cultures, but occasionally describes peoples as this, such as the cannibals from beyond the black sea.sea.
* FairForItsDay: Herodotus notes an old Babylonian custom of betrothal by which the dowries paid for the prettiest girls would subsidize marriages for the ugly and crippled. This was considered by Herodotus to be better than the alternatives - prostitution, crippled girls being unmarried, etc.
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None

Added DiffLines:

** "If you attack the Persians then a great empire will be destroyed."
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Please present all Complete Monster candidates in this thread.


* CompleteMonster: Cambyses
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* SignatureScene: Something about three hundred or so soldier guys defeating an army of thousands or what not...
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None


* AlwaysChaoticEvil: As a moral relativist, Herodotus reserves judgement on most things, but occasionally describes peoples as this, such as the cannibals from beyond the black sea.

to:

* AlwaysChaoticEvil: As a moral relativist, Herodotus reserves judgement on most things, usually abstains from judging other cultures, but occasionally describes peoples as this, such as the cannibals from beyond the black sea.
Is there an issue? Send a MessageReason:
None

Added DiffLines:

* AlwaysChaoticEvil: As a moral relativist, Herodotus reserves judgement on most things, but occasionally describes peoples as this, such as the cannibals from beyond the black sea.
* CompleteMonster: Cambyses
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None

Added DiffLines:

* VindicatedByHistory: ''The Histories'' has always been considered a classic, but it was more for its literary merit than historical. Herodotus was called "Liar" in his own time and widely accused of making the whole thing up. Modern archaeologists and historians, however, have corraborated many of his stories. Today it's believed he was accurately retelling stories that the locals he spoke to believed to be actual history.

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