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Canonier Since: Jan, 2001
07/20/2010 02:29:56 •••

Surprisingly subtle conflict

My reaction to Avatar overall seems to be nigh-universal: loved the effects, bored with the story. However, there is something else to love about Avatar, and that is its villains and its heroes.

Given some of the things I've heard, I honestly expected the humans to be in the Complete Monster territory. Instead they were several levels above what could be expected from colonists in recent times. They honestly seemed like they've learned from invasions past, even if this learning did not turn them into saints. When they wanted something, they tried to negotiate and trade, at great expense to themselves. Even when they finally resorted to force, they used measured response and always tried to inflict the least damage possible. They were still the villains, but they never seemed out-and-out evil, especially given that, as this very wiki points out, they had no less than seven different ways of wiping out all the Na'vi to start with.

On the other side we have Na'vi, who are less than totally sympathetic as protagonists. Sure, they get points for their religion of unity with nature being based around hard scientific fact, but that doesn't change the fact that living in harmony with nature is not necessarily a good thing for a society. They are still hunter-gatherers, with all that entails. They appear to respect only warriors, which means Pandora is probably not a good place to be frail but studious. They have close to zero respect for other people and their ways, being one of the most self-centered cultures I've seen. And of course they have arranged marriage, which will offend many Western sensibilities. Whatever Jake may think, the Na'vi culture is far from perfect.

So, there you have it. It's villains who can be villains without becoming monsters vs. heroes who can remain heroes without being correct. By paying attention to the surprisingly intricate way every facet of this conflict plays out you can definitely up your enjoyment of Avatar.

Desertopa Since: Jan, 2001
02/06/2010 00:00:00

This wasn't remotely the impression I got from watching the movie.

The human colonists might have been fairer than Age of Exploration colonists, but only marginally. They attempted trade on the assumption that with their vastly superior technology they could exchange things worth little to them for the unobtainium at a huge profit. Trading trinkets for a substance more valuable than gold is not "great expense to themselves." Further, it is made explicit that the only reason they are avoiding greater violence against the Na'vi is to avoid a PR disaster, which would hurt profits. The primary antagonist is the quintessential Corrupt Corporate Executive. The fact that their current operations aren't creating a catastrophic PR disaster strains suspension of disbelief. Furthermore, the fact that they have not simply wiped out the Na'vi probably has less to do with their ethics (which they more or less discard by the end of the movie) and more to do with the writers deliberately ignoring how easy it should be for them to do so, for narrative convenience.

Besides, for all that the movie was supposed to be a commentary on human greed, there is a such thing as going too far, and I feel that if the humans in your story have discovered a planet with abundant life with a completely different origin from Earth, where everything that exists there is completely unknown here, and hardly anything has been studied at all, and your primary interest is digging precious rocks out of the ground, you have crossed the line.

You're right that the Na'vi society was far from perfect, but the trouble was that the movie never acknowledged it. The flaws in their culture were shown, but not given attention. It's not even clear that we were supposed to see them as flaws. They are never called out in any way, and the more Jake becomes immersed in their culture, the more "heroic" he becomes; every one of his successes is achieved on their terms. Not only must we suppose that their culture seemed perfect to Jake, we are given no evidence that the director felt otherwise.

I can barely imagine how low my expectations would have to have been to be surprised by the subtlety of the conflict in this movie.

...eventually, we will reach a maximum entropy state where nobody has their own socks or underwear, or knows who to ask to get them back.
Crazyjabberwock Since: May, 2012
05/29/2010 00:00:00

One can hope that these issues will be brought into focus in the sequel. Personaly I think I lowered my expectations a little to far (I was shocked that I enjoyed it) However I think its worth noting that the golf playing jackoff was likely in conrtol of the transmitions being sent to earth (Imagin the shock the folks at earth are in for shortly after the film) This was obviously meant to establish the world itself, hopfuly story will be the main focus of the sequel.

92.233.235.66 Since: Dec, 1969
05/29/2010 00:00:00

Well, I felt there were plenty of plot holes which added layers to the story; like why was unobtanium so valuable in the first place? We are talking about an advanced human civilization who "burnt" their own planet, which leads me to suspect that the human race isn't doing quite as well as it first appears. It seems likely that this mineral they are mining serves some extremely valuable purpose, like providing a powerful energy source, or purifying oxygen. It looks pretty ugly, so it can't serve some aesthetic purpose like gold once did to the colonists. If that is the case, then it makes sense that the humans are willing to do anything to be able to mine something so important. How much would you really care for the local superstitions of a small tribal society, in comparrison to something which will help the survival of your entire race?

I suspect that the humans might have even tried to say as much to the Na'vi, only for the clearly xenophobic, arrogant tribes to scorn and ignore their plight. The humans don't have the ability to hardwire themselve's into a planet's ecosystem, so why should they be expected to believe any of the Na'vi's claims that such a thing is possible? It sounds just as plausible as a tribe claiming that the great spirit Wakan Tanka is going to protect and cherish all life. It got the same result in the end.

I don't whole with the purity of the Na'vi either. These guys live in seperate tribes all over the place. Does that mean they have all the same problems that real life tribes have to deal with? Like inter-tribal conflict? Or a xenophobic hatred for outsiders? They seem awfully fond of warriors, and it requires a rare and spectacular event just to get them to cooperate at all, so it wouldn't suprise me.

Finally, the importance of their home is reiterated through the movie. They really love their big tree thing. Yet though we see how as much as they do not wish to be displaced, it is not as if they can't survive elsewhere. Other tribes live all over the planet, so why can't they find somewhere else? Sure, it is a terrible thing to lose one's home. But then maybe they should have been a bit more diplomatic with the humans in the first place. The humans did try everything short of violent conflict, so I find it hard to believe a compromise of sorts could not have been reached had the Na'vi been less of a martially inclined culture.

Phrederic Since: Jun, 2009
05/30/2010 00:00:00

I agree with the guy above me, if Earth was really as fucked up as it was supposed to be, then why the hell didn't the humans carpet bomb Pandora and take what they need. Yeah, peaceful coexistence is good, but if the assholes aren't cooperating, and the continued existence of humanity is on the line, then I think some plundering is justified.

"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
starofjustice Since: Jan, 2015
05/30/2010 00:00:00

And that, Phrederic, is what separates you from this movie's fans. The Na'vi are all great and at one with nature, and their defenders would probably tell you the people in this movie deserve to die out.

Crazyjabberwock Since: May, 2012
05/31/2010 00:00:00

I looked it up unobtanium is a room temperature superconductor. Ironicly here in the real world poeple are researching Zero Point Energy which would render a superconductor obsolite.

flyboy254 Since: Jan, 2001
06/01/2010 00:00:00

From the military standpoint, I got the impression that Quaritch wasn't the mustache twirling bad guy Cameron seemed to make him out to be. He was rough around the edges because he's on a planet where half the wildlife is actively trying to kill any humans, while the other half is only accidentally killing humans. Now, yes, the men were practically mercenaries, but remember that Jake states that these were former soldiers and Marines, so even if they were the problem children, they would still know how to deal with dangerous situations and work well when the chips are down against them. And remember, military forces work off of their given intelligence, and Quaritch was well within his knowledge to act when he discovered Jake was attacking the dozers, as well as ordering the attack on home tree when Jake admitted that the Na'vi couldn't be bought off.

On the flipside, we have Vasquez (I know, but that's what I'm calling her), who, despite having signed on to undoubtedly pilot her scorpion to protect RDA assets and personnel, and "she didn't sign up for this"?! Last I checked, a mercenary was someone who fights for the pay of another, following their orders. If she didn't like the fact that the Na'vi were being killed, she could've just left, gone home. I know it wasn't in the movie, but there was no disciplinary action from Quaritch about her desertion?

Finally, the soldiers themselves. Um, "Get some"? Yes, soldiers psych themselves up before and during a fight, and I'm guessing "Get some" has been used, but in a movie like this? Huh? When did we arrive in an 80s action flick?

Cameron gave us some intersting variations on the gung-ho military types in Aliens, but here, some of us are more likely to root for them for the wrong reasons, and something tells me that isn't good story telling.

Nornagest Since: Jan, 2001
06/02/2010 00:00:00

"Get some" is commonly used in at least one real-world military: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_States_Marine_Corps_acronyms_and_expressions#G . Don't remember hearing it in this movie, but I'm willing to give it a pass. Of course, I wouldn't expect it to be in common use a hundred years from now, but since the RDA security forces apparently still use Hellfire missiles...

I will keep my soul in a place out of sight, Far off, where the pulse of it is not heard.
Phrederic Since: Jun, 2009
06/02/2010 00:00:00

"If she didn't like the fact that the Na'vi were being killed, she could've just left,"

Er, the problem is the five year journey to earth, I do agree with your points, but she I doubt soldier were told that they might have to bombard civilian targets.

"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
Phrederic Since: Jun, 2009
06/02/2010 00:00:00

  • But I doubt soldiers

Sorry.

"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
flyboy254 Since: Jan, 2001
06/03/2010 00:00:00

S'alright. But if there were more soldiers showing grief, I don't remember Cameron showing.

Phrederic Since: Jun, 2009
06/03/2010 00:00:00

The soldiers were barely shown outside combat situations so we don't really know, Mr Whiplash, the CEO was upset, so it's possible the soldiers would be as well.

"Whoa" Keanu Reeves
ccoa Since: Jan, 2001
06/04/2010 00:00:00

Cameron made all the soldiers other than the named characters paper-thin characters, and the only ones we saw were either indifferent to or approved of the attack on the Na'Vi (Trudy's gunner was outright enthusiastic about it). This is clearly so we won't feel sorry for them when they get slaughtered. Because, obviously, they are all evil.

Waiting on a TRS slot? Finishing off one of these cleaning efforts will usually open one up.
80.82.32.27 Since: Dec, 1969
06/11/2010 00:00:00

Humans aren't Complete Monster of this movie, merely victims of triumphant Mindless Consumerism. And Na'Vi aren't even a true side in the conflict.

gibberingtroper Since: May, 2009
07/17/2010 00:00:00

Desertopia: The "great expense" they went to wasn't in the exchange of trinkets. When humanity discovered the Navi, they tried to learn everything they could of their ways (learning their languages, devoting Ph D's to their study) and made every effort at trying to make them comfortable with our presence up to and including engineering bodies like theirs to go talk to them. Its commented that those bodies are very expensive which is why it was worth it to them to fly out the grad student's marine brother to use the body they had as opposed to making a new one for another grad student.

As for the Navi, I agree with you, the movie gives no indication that we are supposed to see anything about the Navi as less than ideal, from their xenophobia, to their unwillingness to seek peaceful solutions or learn about others.

77.45.178.231 Since: Dec, 1969
07/18/2010 00:00:00

^ I wonder if anyone here read classical H.G.Wells novel "The Country of the Blind". It's about a lost tribe of the blind people in secluded valley who thought all other people in the world are equally blind (so when the sighted person shows in the valley they think he's crazy). You guys make one BIG mistake judging the Na'Vi by human standards (exactly the same mistake made by the humans in the movie). They're NOT humans because they can SEE things most humans don't even bother to think of.

207.191.229.196 Since: Dec, 1969
07/20/2010 00:00:00

Nice comparison, hehehe. Though this time we have the Blind coming into the land of the Sighted ;)


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