As far as the Bewilderbeast battle, I'm not sure you could reasonably expect anything more than what we got; while they may be speedsters in the water, according to the manual, they ARE giant dragons with great power but slow speed. And enough power + huge tusks would equal grevious wound to any creature. I expected all this as soon as I saw them gearing up, and wasn't disappointed as a result
And that rule isn't a hollywood one, but more of a fiction one, long established before them for the general sake of drama (ie it's hard to find an example that doesn't include it in some way). But YMMV on it being cheap drama, in this movie or otherwise
Plus I don't think it lacked vision or originality, but that's just me.
That's because you're wrong xD
No seriously, thanks for replying. My point was that, while admittedly logical, the fight of the Bewilderbeasts was not nearly as cool as the one against the Green Death, and that I think they should have done something else other than trying to top one giant dragon with two, especially if the end result falls short of the original.
Secondly, there's a reason why Rape Is The New Dead Parents exists, namely that Parental Abandonment was and is used to inflationary degrees. Like Chandler's Law it's an increadibly easy way to create drama, and, unfortunately, it's rarely done well. I know that's just, like, my opinion, but it felt really obvious that Stoic's death was mainly a device to help Hiccup along, and to up the stakes in the confrontation with Toothless. So I was and am quite annoyed that such a great character was sacrificed for that, as well as the easy pathos of a nice viking funeral.
But as I said, the film is very good. I'm just grumpy because it had the potential to be great, and fell short.
In a way though, I felt the Bewilderbeat battle was as good, because it expanded considerably more into how dragons work - in retrospect, the Green Death was obviously an Alpha, which explained why all the other dragons obeyed him (and, later, fled when the humans arrived - because they were an Alpha challenger combined). Instead of being just another great battle, it was a logical expansion of the ways of dragons (and even a reasonable one, taking the strong-but-slow aspect into consideration) - which I believe is just as good hehe, specifically because it's a contrast to the battle with the Green Death.
As to your grumpiness with the Parental Abandonment, that is quite fine (it's your opinion after all) - my only argument would be that it wasn't cheap/easy/contrived or whatever in this case (or in general), or that it didn't actually bring anything down in being used. Which I could argue, but I believe where I stand on that is already fairly obvious :P
No, please, do argue, I'm genuinely interested in your reasoning. Maybe it'll open up a new angle for me to approach and understand the film, which would be a good thing since I very much want to like it.
Well, to put it simply - anything that's been done before, overused, cliche, whatever you want to call it... that simply doesn't bother me. I believe Parental Abandonment, like all other tropes, are tools for writing, so I consider them in each case rather than think 'oh, it's this trope - deduct points for it's use." So, in general, it's quite difficult for me to find examples that are anywhere near contrived/easy/cheap in my opinion. Plus, I don't believe the use of any trope or tool in writing brings down the quality on principle - maybe they would if they don't fit with the overall story (I mean, whatsoever), but that's rarer.
Anyway, with that in mind...
Yes, with Stoick's death, it's a sad, sad moment - especially for the harsh fact that it was a mind-controlled Toothless who took him down. But it was the direct result of Hiccup's blindness, believing that he could deal with a madmen peacefully without considering everyone telling him it couldn't be done (which is a noble sentiment, and a good one, but taken too far)... Stoick Taking The Bullet served to show that the world isn't as idealistic as he was being right there, and that sometimes things don't work out the way you want them to. So no, the development wasn't contrived or out-of-nowhere imo; it was foreshadowed by Hiccup not listening.
If Stoick hadn't died, if he'd survived Toothless's blast; he'd just have been injured, and Hiccup and Valka would have been worried + extra determined/mad to deal with Drago... ie any realizations that this was his doing would be thrown to the wayside, most likely.
Im not sure the green death was nessecarily an alpha. Dragons just can be dominated and the green death, the alpha species and drago all do that. Mind control might be exclusive to the alphas still. I quite liked that, since hiccup essentially shows toothless a better way to "govern" dragons. The white alpha might have been like this too.
This movie just held away from tragedy. I wouldve wanted to see Hiccup miss that fire-arrow on his fathers funeral ship. And as you said the dance-scene was seriously worsened by Gobber. it had actually won me over before it lost me.
But I dont blame it in the slightest. I think the Lion-King director was on the first, but not on this one and some other assistance. Also lots of scenes of toothless heling/catching/entertaining hiccup, which is all fodder for the little boy in me. The little boy doesnt really care about plot (although he realizes when the grown ups think thats something is cool)
Mainly now I spend my days worrying for the little boy and how the 3rd movie might turn out. I think they want to show hiccup growing up even more, have a wife and be happy without dragons, which is absurd.
As far as the Green Death being an Alpha, I believe he was in spirit at least, due to several clues in the first movie:
One, when Toothless, Hiccup and Astrid were approaching the dragon's lair, there was a sort of hypnotic crooning - Toothless could feel it, and wobbled on his fight there (his eyes even tried to turn to slits), but only Hiccup was able to keep him in his right mind because of their bond.
Two, when the villagers of Berk landed on the shores and broke open the rock, the hypnotic crooning stopped... and as a result of being freed from the crooning's control, the dragons fled the ensuing Alpha challenge (and it WAS a challenge, as the Green Death stepped out to face them directly). And after they won, the dragons became Berk's friends with absolutely no hesitation or distrust whatsoever (and some relief that they were no longer being hunted, I imagine)
^^^ Good point, I didn't consider that. It's a harsh reality check for Hiccup. He's running from his responsibility as future chief, and from the fact that there are situations you can't hug out. I'll have to rewatch the film with that in mind and see if my gut agrees. But seriously, thanks for pointing that out.
As for the whole "Alpha" thing: in a given group of animals, the alpha is simply the individual of the highest rank (see The Other Wiki) whom the others submit to. Which, in the first film, is clearly the Green Death.
Disagree. HTTYD 2 did everything better than the first.
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Good but not great (spoilers).
This film is very, very good. The visuals are absolutely stunning, even more so than in the original. The characters are equally as fantastic, quirky, flawed and so very lovable. I'd like to deduct points for Drago, a boring, generic villain, but he is more than balanced out by Valka, who is hands down my favorite character in all of animation. She's this cool and eerie dragon lady, but she's also the insecure wife and mom who's scared that her loved ones don't want her back. I found it a bit of a shame that she pretty much dropped the dragon riding and controlling once the battle started, but I see that it's a logical choice, since the focus is clearly on Hiccup and the youngsters. Eret is also a nice addition, remarkably balanced for what most stories would treat as an ineffectual comic relief character. And let's not forget the dragons, who are glorious and so very life-like. You really get the sense that each one is a unique character, and not just there to fill the scenery. The interactions between all the characters, humans and dragons, are very charming and believable.
The actual story, however, is nothing to write home about, very generic, and not nearly as tight as the first part. It feels like the first act, up until Hiccup finds Valka in the sanctuary, is leading up to something great, mysterious and climactic, and while the big battle that follows is kind of impressive and cool, it's not nearly as awesome as the fight against the Green Death. It's a typical Hollywood battle, cool effects, frequent reversals, but ultimately just a backdrop for the main characters. Even the giant dragons fell a bit flat. The introduction to the Bewilderbeast was absolutely stunning, literally awe-inspiring, but, once again, the actual fight between them didn't hold a candle to the ferocity of the Green Death. And can we expect the next sequel to have three or more giant dragons? Final gripe: is there some unspoken Hollywood rule that we can never have complete families, and that major character development can only be triggered by the death of a loved one? I like a good character death as much as the next guy, but please, don't milk it for cheap drama.
All in all: fantastic movie hampered by a lack of vision and originality. Dreamworks needs to... dream a little harder.