Discussion YMMV / XenobladeChronicles2

I mean, I do think it's true that the game has risen a lot in esteem over the years as patches fixed a lot of its flaws and its strong aspects became more well known, as someone who has adjusted and modified that entry to try to be a bit more neutral. I do agree with concerns that the entry is a bit gushy, and it was added by a user with a history of making edits in favor of 2 that are questionably rule-violatingly gushy and apologetic (as well as the occasional 1-bashing misuse I've had to clean up).

Also, the release of 3 which runs back a lot of the more controversial aspects of 2 (and to be clear to anyone lurking, I'm not only or even mainly talking about the character designs here; despite what some apologists have claimed, a lot of the game's Contested Sequel reputation lies in several baffling to objectively questionable gameplay choices) has reignited a lot of fandom fighting over 2's quality, so whatever vindication 2 had gotten in that time, and in my opinion it has, might end up zigzagging back into condemned territory with time. Who knows.

Unrelated, but I have to strongly contest the entry you recently added about audiences disliking the European voice cast, as disregarding things like the quality of the acting and lipsyncing, which are completely separate issues, the choice of accents is widely considered a Woolseyism by most of the game's audience and even a a significant draw for the franchise as a whole. A very similar entry came up in one of the cleanup threads (I don't remember exactly which thread, but it would've been around February of this year) and was deemed by other tropers to be a fringe minority opinion and cut for violating the "no gratuitous complaining/bashing" rule.

Indeed, I've been following Xenoblade for several years now and this is the first I've heard of the accents for the English voices being a remotely big point of contention.

I wasn't aware that a similar topic had been made in the past regarding the casting part, so thank you for pointing that.

As for the VBH, I don't deny that there probably is on some level some improvement over time, but even if VBH is put on the page, the entry needs to be reworked, because it seems like it's trying to deflect criticism, using development issues as a shield against it being bad, etc, don't really seem fair as justification.

If anything, I'd argue is qualifies when the patches and Torna are included, but since Torna is it's own thing, I don't think it necessarily "fixes" 2. I think it could be a valid VBH at some point, but I think 3's release highlighted the problems people had by showing many of them being fixed.

On further thought, I'm wondering if a reason to disqualify this game for VBH is that it's too good. Yes, it was (and is) a very controversial game and commonly seen as a step down from 1 in many ways, but it was pretty well-received by both critics and casual fans, and was the best selling Xeno game at its time. Its controversial reputation is mostly within people already familiar with the Xeno franchise.

I think thats a good point. As controversial as it is, it sold well. To me that makes it seem like it isn't as "vindicated" as the entry suggests.

Yeah, I'm inclined to delete it at this point. If anyone else would also like to chime in favor then I'd say go ahead and cut.

And thinking on it, you're probably right about Torna. The entry was written at a time when Torna examples were still on the same page, but I've since separated it into its own thing. Also, the ways Torna improves on 2 are more Author's Saving Throw in nature, rather than a vindication of disputed elements of 2.

I would very much argue that it was vindicated by history. It could be reworded, yes, but I disagree with the idea that it wasn't vindicated by history. Looking at the trope, nothing specifies that it cannot be financially successful, so saying it was financially successful isn't much of an argument. While critics reviewed it well, it was, at least in the circles I run in, the butt of every joke. Many people hated a lot of aspects about it, and only recently have people started giving it a second look and seeing it as far better than they initially believed.

The first one is the only valid one in my experience. The latter two aren't likely to cause nearly as much discourse. Most discussions of the middle one these days are fairly polite, with even many fans of the game admitting the voice acting is pretty weak and worth criticizing even if most of the blame got attributed to the wrong factors, and it rarely becomes FEM material unless the person is acting like bad-faith Hate Dumb. Likewise though I have seen a few people push the latter "Poppi is a sex slave and the game is a lolicon simulator" thing, it's mostly Dunkey Fan Dumb or the really extreme Xenoblade 2 Hate Dumb who are pre-primed to Accentuate the Negative. They're not significant enough to really talk about.

I think the first entry needs adjustment to stay, but how much I'm not sure. The "waifu collection" aspect is kinda true given the whole Blades aspect, but I don't mean that as a negative dig on it.

Perhaps to rewrite it to focus on people who completely dismiss it as a shallow eroge rather than a relatively serious story that happens to have a lot of sexy designs.

How about this:

• Fandom-Enraging Misconception: Painting the entire game as some kind of H-Game or Excuse Plot for fanservice is a quick and easy way to rile up fans of the game. While there is fanservice, the game's fanservice has little impact on the story, which is itself a fairly serious and complex narrative.

Yeah, that sounds good.

Relatedly, I'm not sure if this is worth bringing up due to the possible ROCEJ involved, but should there be an entry under Misaimed Fandom for the portion of 2 fandom who are drawn to the game primarily for its fanservice aspects and let it color their idea of the series, using it to bash on the other games (for example, accusing 3 of being Bowdlerized), despite the fanservice in 2 being largely incidental and not a major focus or even a heavily advertised aspect of the game?

I would have assumed the bowdlerize accusations were mostly limited to before it became clear how flatteringly the game was going to depict characters like Ethel and Monica (or Eunie for that matter).

Oh no, it's persisted post-release, as some people really do value the absolute quantity of exposed skin above all else when it comes to fanservice, and the controversy over the Dunkey video for 3 reawakened some of those folks as well.

That sounds more like an Eight Point Eight situation than a rivalry with Dunkey fans as a whole.

Kind of curious about this again in light of his Xenoblade 3 video, but also how he showed (and also tweeted) a major endgame spoiler from it without warning. I know that's a separate issue on its own, but I think I've seen conversations among the lines of people saying it's satire and to not take him seriously, versus people saying with how big his base is, so many people are gonna use his video as their opinion and harass others for liking it, popping up again and it's why I suspected a FR at first.

Dunkey's name is trending on Twitter at the time of this, so you could probably gauge what's going on just by searching it.

I don't pay attention to that stuff, but it might be worth a mention on the overarching hitherto-unused Xenoblade Chronicles page. Seems like people are saying that even if Dunkey himself is not necessarily the problem, a lot of his aggressive fans take his joke opinions as the gospel and use it to harass Xenoblade fans.

Anyway, I was thinking of adding an Ensemble Dark Horse entry about Tirkins in general, might do that now actually.

Well it is YMMV, but you could always lighten the language to be less one-sided.

Seconded. I can see where the OP is coming from and I think that would be best.

You may have a point. I've recently started watching more recent blind playthroughs of the game and find that fans who comment on the videos are overall more positive than they were closer to when the game was released. Not that it was necessarily hated back then, but I'm seeing a lot of people who outright praise aspects of the game that were so often hated on back then (many seem to call the sillier aspects of the dub part of the "Xenoblade Chronicles 2 experience"), and others that emphasize that they now see Rex as a pretty good voice actor outside of a few scenes/screams. Now I haven't seen people necessarily getting angry over the criticisms, usually they acknowledge that most of them have a point, it's more like they've embraced the flaws and want to praise the game warts and all.

Yeah more recent players will acknowledge that some of the game's issues were due to production-side things such as limited resources/dev time or lack of effective voice direction/art design direction as opposed to consciously poor decisions, and thus be more forgiving.

This is a belated reply, but I think I'm gonna start by adding the bit about Rex's English VA. I think that should be the easiest to explain.

Poppi.

I'd say some rare blades like Ursula and Crosette also count.

If you can word it in a way that is descriptive of the fandom's reaction as opposed to personal gushing, then go ahead.

It's not an Edit War. I deleted the example originally due to Fandom Berserk Button having its name and definition changed. I was then informed by Brief Casey 795 that the example was actually valid, so I told them to re-add it but with more context.

I'd do it myself, but I don't know how

I think I'll change it to Jin comforting Lora after she realizes her mom is dead.

Here is the entry:

• The Scrappy: Godfrey is arguably the most disliked character in the game no thanks to a double negative whammy bestowed upon him. In terms of characterization and storyline, Godfrey is solely defined by his sense of justice and nothing else, which leads into an incredibly boring and nonsensical Blade Quest that lacks any Character Development, Hidden Depths or any form of humor. Gameplay wise (as detailed in Tier Induced Scrappy below), Godfrey's field skills are completely worthless outside said blade quest, his passive battle skills are contradictory and unintuitive, and he's saddled with the worst weapon in the game. Godfrey's regulated to mercenary missions by many players and even then a 4-Star Common Blade can do the job better than him.

Yeah I don’t think it’s necessary to have both. Tier induced scrappy fits him more than the scrappy does. I don’t think there is any character that really qualifies as the scrappy in this game.

I agree.

Its still fits the trope due to the rest of the entry. Nia knows that being a member of Torna (a terrorist group) is bad and she was arrested for this. Furthermore she actively fights against Torna so her bringing her arrest up as justification comes across as not only hypocritical but also seems to be bringing up conflict for no reason.

Especially when Morag tipped the scales in their favor in the factory and Morag shows herself to be even more of a Reasonable Authority Figure when she stops fighting Rex and the team upon realizing they are not the culprits and even letting them help with the investigation.

So yes, while the entry was wrong in saying that Nia "keeps" bringing it up, the factors that she still harbors animosity to her arrest, which was fully justified, as well as Morag proving on several occasions that she is at least a reasonable authority figure still put Nia as unintentionally unsympathetic even if its a mild case of it.

It should be noted that it is not Nia bringing it up or being distrustful of Morag that makes her this. It is the fact that she uses her arrest as justification for not trusting Morag when she knows full well that Morag had acceptable grounds to arrest her.

Yeah, there's no evidence of that, nor the "thing for young girls" bit. The entire thing is pretty baseless.

Agreed. There is no doubt that Tora has a maid fetish, but the bolded is nothing but baseless assumption. A certain blade does chew up Tora for the maid fetish, but as far as we know Poppi never was used as a sex doll.

I'd say so, although the question is whether it should be its own page or whether all three Xenoblade music pages (1, X, and 2) should be consolidated into a single page.

I think we should only consolidate it if we have a series page.

I know Final Fantasy and Xenosaga do it as a single page.

Final Fantasy has a Franchise page. Xenosage does not even have any page for individual pages.

Too soon. We really need months to test it out.

Depends on if we consider the leadup to the game as part of its word-of-mouth. The game and its character designs have been discussed since the beginning of the year, even if much of the mocking memery has only only really heated up once the game properly came out.

Would Tainted by the Preview work?

• Tainted by the Preview: Before the game was even released, many people were turned off by the character designs for being "too anime", particularly of the highly fanservicey female characters. Along with changes to the battle system requiring characters to stand still in order to auto attack.

I added a few other issues as well.

They Changed It, Now It Sucks! can probably be spun off into its own entry if it isn't already. Maybe point out how the speed of the battles was considered a point in the first game's favor by a lot of fans to explain why, since one of the more common criticisms about the second game's OST is how sluggish it feels, at least at first.

OST? What does the soundtrack have to do with battle speed?

If you are talking about combat flow, it is generally agreed that on average combat is gaster and more hectic than the original. Maybe we can put it in Slow-Paced Beginning.

Yeah, I meant battle system. No idea why I put OST there.

The game starts a bit slow, but speeds up rather quickly upon further progress. It gets even faster than the original if you understand the game's mechanics and execute them properly.

This ain't a game for casuals, that's fir sure.

I also deleted HIH with roughly the same reason and Miin U readded it.

@mrbits: The two situations aren't vaguely similar, they're near identical. I even outlined how.

Unohana was feared and reknowned for her skill with a sword, so is Morag. Despite this, both of them were soundly defeated by a child character, with Unohana and Morag both admitting that Zaraki and Rex had held back on them.

The amusing part being (or irony, if you prefer), that the same scenario played out twice in two separate works, years later (the Bleach incident being first).

Further, according to the editing rules, the only time anyone is allowed to delete YMMV entries is if they are factually incorrect (i.e. if the entry contains false, or misleading information). The HH entry I added was factually accurate.

Disagreeing with it is not grounds for deleting it.

Okay, maybe I'm wrong and these two situations are the exact same in ways even deeper than I assumed. What does that even mean? What is it about this similarity that's supposed to be so amusing?

The main trope page defines Hilarious in Hindsight as "It's when a later event, such as a current event or something that happened in the series, is funnier than it originally was." and that the laconic tab defines it as "Something is made funny or more funny thanks to later events."

How does the Xenoblade 2 scene make the Bleach scene more amusing, funny, ironic, or interesting (or vice-versa)? If you can give a good reason, you can add the example.

At this point, it's essentially explaining the joke, which defeats the purpose of it. It's easier to understand when/if you're already familiar with both works.

In any case, it was originally a point of contention among the Bleach fandom that Unohana's (at that time) long awaited backstory amounted to little more than her being a once feared swordswoman, 'til the day she lost to Zaraki, who happened to be a child. It was also the first and only duel she had ever lost, which was made more humiliating for her once she realized Zaraki had actually begun to hold back to prevent himself from killing her.

Fast forward a few years later, and almost the exact same scenario repeats itself in a different work. Before the battle begins, Dromarch warns Rex that Morag is the strongest Driver in all of Mor Ardain. Yet, when you fight her, she's only a lv.15 boss that goes down pitifully easy. In the cutscene that follows (after Rex and his friends have escaped), Morag says she feels slighted because Rex (another child) had held back when he could have killed her.

The joke being, neither she or Unohana lived up to their reputations, since all it took was a kid to beat both of them. Especially considering they admitted both kids had gone easy on them.

Back when it originally happened to Unohana, it was considered bad writing. Now it seems funny for the aforementioned reason.

That doesn't explain anything about how the Xenoblade scene changes the Bleach scene.

From what you're describing, before Xenoblade, Unohana was considered a joke who failed to live up to her reputation because she was beaten by a child who was holding back. After Xenoblade, Unohana is considered a joke who failed to live up to her reputation because she was beaten by a child who was holding back. I can't see any difference.

Also please describe this boss fight in more detail. Does Rex have Pyra with him at this point in the game? Is he fighting Morag one-on-one, or is he assisted by other party members? These are important details, and if any of those are true than that makes the Xenoblade situation substantially different than the Bleach one.

Dude, it's a YMMV entry, not a factoid. It's based on opinion and doesn't need explaining beyond that.

Just because you don't get it doesn't mean someone else won't. That's why it's YMMV because it's subjective. Which is why editing rules don't allow you to delete someone else's edit simply because you may not agree with it.

In any case, I've already answered your question several times, so I'm done with this. I'll ask the Mods and let them decide.

If it belongs on the page at all (IMO it's more of an obscure coincidence) it would probably better belong under Counterpart Comparison or on the Bleach page than HIH which would imply the scene in Xenoblade is what came first and later went on to be seen as hilarious. The overlap between late Bleach fandom and this game is also small enough that it would probably come off as trivial.

Honestly, after reading the example and this, I don't see how it applies either. I think Alley Oop's post nails the entirety of the problem.

Shouldn't YMMV be a consensus? If only one person has that opinion then it's not worth writing down.

Not to mention Square Peg Round Trope is enough ground to delete entries, YMMV or not.

@AlleyOop: I can sorta go along with that, except when I think of Counterpart Comparison, I think of Alternate Company Equivalent, or an Expy. Morag is only loosely similar to Unohana, there's not enough there to say they're truly alike.

The HIH edit has more to do with the similarity of situation and the way it played out, rather than the characters themselves. But since the general consensus is that it doesn't fit, I'll leave it off the page.