Ace Gamer
re: Vindicated by History/Deader Than Disco
- Deader Than Disco: A milder example, but nevertheless. During the time of it's release, reviews were overwhelmingly positive, citing it as the best game Bioware ever made since Baldur's Gate II, or even the best RPG ever. Six years after the release, opinions have mellowed out quite a bit, often pointing out the shallow filler storyline, the lack of RPG elements and the limited interaction with the companions, among other flaws.
No, the current text doesn't work better. I won't remove the example because I don't want to carry on an edit war, but the keyword of Deader Than Disco is dead. Nobody likes it, except maybe ironically. People make fun of the few genuine fans it has and are ashamed to admit that they ever liked it at all. Consider the trope namer: tens of thousands of people coming out to an event for the sole purpose of telling the world just how much they hate disco.
ME2 might not be the critical darling it once was, but it's not dead. The closest trope that fits the text is probably Hype Backlash, but IMO it doesn't quite fit: that trope is when a work becomes panned after the fact as a direct result of being popular and/or critically acclaimed. As written, the ME2 text is just people's attitudes towards the game changing after they removed their rose-tinted glasses.
I'm not removing the example outright because, as it is, the add-remove-add cycle already constitutes an Edit War.
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The idea that it's Deader Than Disco is utter nonsense. I'm pulling it.
I think you two are being a bit knee-jerk. There's something worth discussing here.
Your reaction doesn't fit with a lot of the examples on the various page. For example, Avatar, Erin Brocovitch, and other films which still have strong fanbase are listed as examples. A crosswick has Street Fighter II as an example, and I've also seen Beavis and Butthead and Rugrats listed as examples. The first examples on the anime page are Bleach, Inu Yasha, and Gundam Wing.
ALL of these shows/films still have their fans, which means either the description is overly inflated with negativity terminology, we are interpreting the negativity incorrectly, or we have MASSIVE amounts of misuse to deal with.
Hell, even the trope namer no longer applies. Robin Thicke's Blurred Lines was a modern disco song and immensely popular. Justin Timberlake and Daft Punk make contemporary disco as well.
Edited by KingZeal
@King Zeal - You are absolutely right: we have MASSIVE amounts of misuse to deal with. And we've got a cleanup thread where we're trying to do just that: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=14654177060A30520700
From the Deader Than Disco page:
"The final tell-tale sign is when ridicule, or even hatred, comes not just for the thing itself, but for its fans. They become the subject of nasty, highly-specific stereotypes, and gushing about how you like it online is considered trolling. Ten years later, almost nobody will admit that they ever liked it, and the only mention in the media will be cheap jokes about the fad. "
None of that applies to Mass Effect 2 in any way shape or form.
First of all, I find it kind of rude to just remove something instead of searching for an alternate trope. Second, as King Zeal says, even the trope namer is no case of having absolutely no fanbase anymore. But then again, Hype Backlash might work better, again mentioned as a Downplayed (or milder) example. Alternatively we could used Vindicated by History as in Inversion. One way or the other, some trope will have to do, I'm not hellbent for one in particular, so I'm open for suggestions.
Edited by Forenperser Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
"Some trope" will not "have" to do. It's not Deader Than Disco for reasons already stated. Hype Backlash has undergone Example Sectionectomy, and as @Miss Mokushiroku said in the OP, it doesn't really fit anyway. Inversions of Vindicated by History are not particularly notable, and I'm not convinced this is one anyway: the game is still very highly-regarded, often cited as one of the best (certainly as one of the best RPGs) of the past generation.
I'm really not seeing anything worth noting here. "Some people don't like it or think it has flaws" is not a notable Audience Reaction; you can say that of every work ever created.
Edited by HighCrate
Fine, since we're obviously not reaching any consensus here, I'll just slightly expand the already posted Broken Base entry and call it a day.
Edited by Forenperser Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
The Broken Base entry in question:
- Broken Base: This game is either the best of the entire series filled with tons of interesting character stories and an awesome main plot or it's a massive filler Idiot Plot rife with plot holes, a horribly done Unexplained Recovery, limited RPG elements and many unnecessary retcons and changes to the lore of the series. There's not a whole lot of in-between for fans, though it's worth noting that this criticism mostly came as the years went by, during the time of it's release it was , it was covered in high ratings.
I've... kind of got to question this one too, or at least the wording, which is just a bunch of complaining. Mass Effect 2 is widely considered the best game in the series, but there IS a significant minority that prefers the first game. That's the real Broken Base of the ME franchise. I'd write the entry something like:
Edit: Come to think of it, this reads more like Contested Sequel than anything. Move to remove the Broken Base entry and put a Contested Sequel one in its place.
- Contested Sequel: Most fans point to ME2 as the high point of the series, citing its improved combat and streamlined inventory management and its in-depth exploration of individual characters thanks to recruitment and loyalty missions that function as A Day in the Limelight for individual crew members. There's also a significant faction that prefers the first game for its greater complexity, deeper RPG elements, and greater sense of exploration and scale and considers the second installment to be too streamlined. These two factions have a tough time reaching common ground.
That could work too. But again, my main point was that this criticism arose over time, so maybe add that to your write-up.
Certified: 48.0% West Asian, 6.5% South Asian, 15.8% North/West European, 15.7% English, 7.4% Balkan, 6.6% Scandinavian
(apologies, I forgot that watching a page doesn't automatically add the discussion page to your watchlist as well)
@Forenperser: I did look for an alternate trope that would fit the text. I didn't find one.
Inversions of Vindicated by History are not inherently notable because "work becomes less popular/critically acclaimed over time" is the rule, not the exception. The only way it would be notable is if a work became vindicated, then became unvindicated—that is, it gained popularity/acclaim some time after its release, then lost it again.
You need to be careful with Playing with a Trope, especially when it comes to YMMV items. Very often Square Peg Round Trope examples are mislabeled as subversions, inversions, aversions (rarely notable in the first place)...you say that ME2 could be considered a "downplayed" example of Hype Backlash, but all popular works experience hype backlash to a certain extent. If we include mild/downplayed examples, every popular work would need to have it listed on its YMMV page. IMO, Hype Backlash should only be added to a YMMV page if the group who experienced the backlash is either abnormally large or extremely vocal.
I've been involved in Mass Effect fandom since before ME2 came out, and I can vouch that all of the flaws mentioned in the original example have been pointed out and acknowledged by fans since the game's release; there's (as mentioned above) a significant minority who prefer the first game to the sequels, and there was a small but quite vocal "Fight For The Plot" movement by people who disliked ME2's storyline and/or focus on characters. With all the very visible critical praise the game got, you'd only really know about the actual criticisms if you were actively involved with the fandom. Now that those critics have moved on to newer games, they're not drowning out the fans with conflicting opinions.
I support High Crate's proposed Contested Sequel addition. It doesn't come across as as complain-y as the Broken Base text. I'm kinda surprised it wasn't already on the page earlier, tbh, especially given that it's listed as an example on the contested sequel page itself...
(Also, re: Hype Backlash—the page itself has had its examples removed, but it's still allowed on YMMV pages...though I still think it's not appropriate for this one.)
It's not rude to remove an entry that clearly doesn't fit.
King Zeal: Those other pages have misused it as well, then, and they should be removed. Deader Than Disco has a history of misuse, with far too many tropers thinking it means, "Not as popular as it used to be."
I know the staff and mods probably feel differently, but I personally consider it rude to take action when a discussion has been brought up. At least wait until it's over, especially if an edit war is already brewing.
That being said, although the discussion is over, I disagree with Miss Mokushiroku on the idea that criticism of ME 2, or at least the same criticism, existed from the beginning. I was part of the fanbase then, too—on this very site in fact. People who criticized the game during the height of its popularity were shot down as "whiners" and "complainers" back then. Anyone who pointed out the lower scale, lack of exploration, and other issues were just brushed off. It wasn't until ME 3 came out and was even MORE criticized that people actually started to listen to previous complaints.
It sounds like you're saying the same thing. There were always complaints; the complaints got easier to hear after the zeitgeist passed.
Except for the whole "it's flaws were acknowledged by the fans" thing, which my previous post was entirely about refuting.
Pulling these because the game-unbalancing aspects of some of these examples is questionable.
- Game-Breaker:
- The Sentinel's Tech Armor. With the right upgrades, the cooldown times are short, when destroyed it automatically replenishes Shepard's natural shields and causes a wide pulse that stumbles nearby enemies, and when activated automatically sets squadmates' cooldowns to zero (the last one thanks to Good Bad Bugs).
- The M-12 Locust submachine gun you unlock during Kasumi's Loyalty Mission tears through the rest of the game like paper. It has a 25% bonus against all targets (as opposed to the 0/50%/50% depending on the gun and target, of other submachine guns), has a base damage of 25 (over a 50% increase of the Tempest and 25% over the Shuriken), fires slow and accurately enough that you can accurately pick off targets at long range and carries so much ammunition that you will never run out unless you aim with your feet.
- The DLC Mattock Heavy Rifle with Adrenaline Rush.
- The Widow. And enough skill on the player's part to headshot enemies.
- Miranda and Thane if Shepard is an Adept. Warp is extremely useful but has a relatively long cooldown time. The player can have Shepard cast Pull or Singularity, which both have much shorter cooldowns, then use Miranda or Thane's Warp to detonate it, allowing the player to continue casting crowd-control powers or throw out their own Warp last for extra damage.
- Samara's loyalty power, Reave. It deals a large amount of continuous damage to the target, does double damage to armor and biotic barriers, and heals the user if used on an organic target. Since Collectors and their minions exclusively use armor or barriers, rather than shields, having Shepard equipped with Reave (via Advanced Training) makes the suicide mission a cakewalk. Just find good cover, spam Reave at anything tougher than an Abomination that comes at you, rinse, and repeat.
- Stasis, the bonus power gained for Liara allows you to freeze enemies in their place. Once released, the enemy will still be temporarily stunned and extra vulnerable. An unexpected bug made them more vulnerable than intended, allowing players to oneshot nearly every enemy possible. Not to mention if you get lucky and stasis a Collector right before it's possessed by Harbinger, you could possibly one shot it too.
- Miranda's loyalty power Slam. Instant-kill on Husks, even at the lowest level, it's also incredibly cathartic to spend the final stage of the bossfight against Tela Vasir just repeatedly slamming her onto the ground until she stops squealing.
- Inferno Ammo, one of the upgrade choices to Incendiary Ammo. Often overlooked in favor of Armor Piercing Ammo, which has a higher damage bonus. Inferno Ammo works against armor and only does 10% less damage, however, so it's extremely unlikely to be in a situation where the difference would actually give Armor Piercing Ammo a kill that Inferno Ammo wouldn't get on the same shot. Inferno Ammo also applies a damage-over-time effect, and is area-of-effect when it hits a target, neither of which Armor Piercing will do.
Is there a reason for the unusual formatting of this page? I'd planned on changing it to simply list general ymmv tropes and character related tropes under two different banners but I don't want to undo the current formatting if there's support for it. It seems like the article could be a lot more succinct by merging the tropes that apply to multiple characters rather than a separate entry for every name in the game.
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