I've been reflecting on the Gods Need Prayer Badly entry and feeling Maui is really not a fitting example of the trope (even with the Zig-Zagged caveat) which deals with the strength and power of a god being dependent on the quantity and devotion of their worshipers.
Maui is established as a human given divine powers but having self-esteem issues due to his parents tossing him into the sea as an infant.
The tropes in this example (Psychosomatic Superpower Outage and Break Themby Talking) deal with him being unable to access/control his powers (basically just his shapeshifting) due to a loss of confidence, essentially playing upon his humanity. But neither seem to actually affect his power level. He does get curb-stomped by Tamatoa, but given that he survives without apparent injury, shows that his demi-god strength and durability are still intact.
When he first appears on the island after being trapped there for 1000 years and technically Gramma Talla being shown as the only true believer in him, he is still fit, trim, full of energy and superhuman strength.
If this trope were in full effect, it seems he would have been frail, wasted away, and starving for devotion after being away for so long that all his great achievements have been reduced to a tale of how trickster Maui ruined the world told by the village crazy lady.
Edited by rva98014 Hide / Show Replies
That makes a lot of sense. It would be strange that nothing besides Maui's shapeshifting was affected. He even lifts Moana's boat! I removed the trope :)
Someone claimed (and to clarify beforehand: The protaganist's name and the movie's title in Europe and Asia was changed from "Moana" to "Vaiana"):
the name "Vaiana" is derived from the Latin word for sheath, which is vagina
I call bullshit. "Vaiana" is supposed to mean "fresh water" (less fitting than "The Ocean" / "blue" meaning of the original "Moana", but at least still referring to water) in some Polynesian languages. The Polynesian cultures the movie drew its inspiration from existed before the Roman Empire, and the Roman Empire didn't have any contact with those cultures during its existance. No way any Roman words would have impact on the characters.
The above seems like a Troll remark that should be removed, agree?
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Ironic because Maui was killed by a vagina in the original mythology. Not a pleasant story.
God is evil.
An organization proposal.
This issue comes to light in view a recent addition of Sven as a cameo that occurs when Maui is experiencing his shape-shifting Magic Misfire. His appearance is currently listed in the Mythology Gag section as a nod-and-wink easter-egg and there is some question as to whether it qualifies as a cameo.
A few months ago, the Moana pages were in need of a good housecleaning. There were a lot of redundant entries, story tropes on the character pages, and examples that didn't fit the details of the trope.
As, I and few others starting cleaning up, we found many duplicate entries in the Cameo, Shout-Out and Mythology Gag sections. Some had the same example in all three categories, others had the same example in just two. Take the Sven example, it technically qualifies for each category, a Cameo (as his character model/image appears in the film), a Shout-Out to Frozen, and a Disney Mythology Gag as an easter egg. The issue was that it added clutter and redundancy to the page without adding much value as each entry basically said "hey Maui turns into Sven for a second".
In cleaning up, we utilized a basic rule of thumb we had adopted over on the Zootopia pages to help organize reference in a Disney movie since it tends to have so many hidden mickeys, easter eggs, in-jokes, etc. Basically, if the reference was purely Disney, be it a "cameo", image, line from a movie, etc, it was collected under Mythology Gag. If it was a reference outside of the Disney mythos, it went under shout-out. If it was an unambiguous cameo it went there.
Moana has relevant examples of each category. It has an intentional Godzilla cameo confirmed by the creative team. The Kakamora are an intentional Shout-Out to Mad Max: Fury Road, and it has plenty of Disney Mythology gags.
The question is, now that the cleanup is over, does the Moana community want to keep this organizational "rule of thumb"? If so, then we wouldn't duplicate Sven's appearance under Cameo as it's already documented in Mythology Gag. If not, then we need to evaluate the validity of Sven as a cameo, as a case could be made that it's not really Sven the character from Frozen that appears in Moana, but rather Maui shape-shifted into the appearance of Sven for a split-second. So is that really a Cameo based on the tvtropes definition?
Be aware that this is simply an organizational preference adopted by the community to make it easy to categorize references. Technically Sven could qualify as a cameo, it's just that we'd agree to simply list his appearance in one place rather than three.
EDIT: FYI a discussion thread was opened that discussed whether Sven qualified as a cameo or not. You can follow it at
https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/query.php?parent_id=54799&type=att
I think we should add a Both Sides Have a Point due to the situation regarding the fish.
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Could you provide a little more detail on what situation you are referring to? I'd like to offer feedback but I'm really not sure what you are talking about.
Edited by rva98014
I'm referring to the scene where it's revealed that there are no longer any fish in the lagoo. Moana right about needing to go out further due to this, and her father's right about the danger due to his past experience.
This seems to be a good example of Both Sides Have a Point.
Chief Tui's point is that the elders established the rule of not going beyond the reef and Tui personally experienced tragedy when he disobeyed and went beyond the reef with his friend. Moana's point is that all other fishing options have been explored and it seems like there simply aren't any fish remaining in the lagoon to be caught. She feels that expanding the fishing beyond the reef is a necessary solution and even though it's been traditionally forbidden, it's become necessary due to a situation the elders never considered.
Both sides also have blind-spots and extenuating circumstances in their arguments as well but it's not required for the example to deal with them. For now I'd recommend just focusing on the two points.
Would you like to jointly work out the wording?
Edited by rva98014
Ok. Here's my suggestion. Look it over and give me your feedback....
- Both Side Have A Point: When the village fishermen report that they have been unable to catch any fish in the lagoon of Motunui, Chief Tui and Moana come up with opposing approaches on how to deal with the problem. Chief Tui points out that the ancient chiefs established the rule of not going beyond the reef and Tui personally experienced tragedy when he disobeyed that rule and went out into the open ocean with his friend. He wants to take the issue up with the council for further discussion. Moana believes that expanding the fishing beyond the reef is a viable solution after having learned that all other options have been explored and that it seems like there simply aren't any fish remaining in the lagoon to be caught. Even though it's been traditionally forbidden, she feels it's become necessary due to a situation the ancient chiefs never considered.
Thanks, I've been a volunteer editor and contributor to tvtropes since I fell in love with Zootopia last year and I wanted to make the Zootopia pages here "a better place". As such, I've gotten a good handle on how to write an example. I realize, in hindsight, I probably should have let you take the first stab at it and then we could have discussed it and refined it. Sorry about that. I'll go ahead and add this example to the Moana page.
I wanted to get a consensus on what to classify Maui's initial power failure when he gets his hook back after 1000 years.
What we see on film is him retrieving the hook, going for a dynamic entry of transforming into his giant hawk form only to find he lacks control over his shapeshifting resulting in many different forms but none are the hawk form he sought.
It ends with him having a sheepish Oh, Crap! look and Tamatoa then proceeding to mop the floor with him. This humiliation along with Tamatoa's Break Them by Talking song, leads to Maui having a Psychosomatic Superpower Outage.
It had been defined as How Do I Shot Web?, but that didn't seem quite right as that's a trope for new powers and the character is figuring out how to activate/control them and Maui knows he can shapeshift, he's just out of practice.
I had thought maybe Power Incontinence as he could activate the shapeshift but due to lack a practice, didn't have the control to insure the desired shape. However, upon reflection, that trope also states that the power can't be shut off, even when the character wants to. So this isn't a perfect fit either.
Inept Mage kinda fits in that the character understands the theory but has trouble making it work in practice. However, this trope is also not perfect as it usually applies to a character that never quite gets it right.
I'd appreciate thoughts on what might be the best fit for this situation. Is there another trope out there that describes the situation better?
EDIT: I just came across Magic Misfire and in reading the trope description and related examples, I think this is the best fit for Maui's situation. It says "A character has magical powers. Either because of inexperience, a Malfunction Malady, the magic equivalent of Phlebotinum Breakdown, or some other reason (eg being out of practice), the spell screws up, often resulting in an unintended effect or Amusing Injuries". Would still appreciate feedback if anyone has a better fitting trope.
Edited by rva98014 Hide / Show Replies
As there have been no replies to my initial discussion point, I'm going to correct the entries that reference Maui's power failure as follows: Since Magic Misfire seem to be the best fit for what happens in the movie, I'm going to change any references to How Do I Shot Web? or Power Incontinence to Magic Misfire elaborating on Maui being out of practice where appropriate.
Re. Tamatoa's species
Andrew Chesworth, one of the artists who designed Tamatoa, says that he's a "Kong-sized coconut crab", which is supported by his fourth pair of legs having little pincers - something decorator crabs don't have but coconut crabs do. As for him not behaving like real coconut crabs, Tamatoa didn't always decorate his shell, and didn't start decorating it until after his rivalry with Maui started.
Suggestion about the page quote. It now is "The ocean is calling", from the movie's tagline. That's pretty generic and I propose to use a quote from one of the songs that says more about Moana and her character development, like one of these three: