When can we add a Characters page...? There are new pictures!
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Whenever you like! Just go to Characters.Frozen and start editing.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
Are they? I still occasionally see people find out the story for the first time and be surprised by a couple of the twists.
Well, it wasn't me who deleted the tags X) I'd rather keep them.
Edited by Tenebrika
On one hand, it doesn't fall under one of the categories in the Spoilers Off page. On the other, that is supposed to be only a partial list. But the general policy is to write for the casual reader. If there isn't a consensus otherwise, I think we should keep spoiler tags for the parts that aren't widely-known. So there being a happy ending and Elsa being Not Evil, Just Misunderstood probably don't have to be spoiled, but who is the actual villain and just what the Act of True Love is probably should be.
Please explain to me why most people seem to think Anna thawed her own heart moments before she froze solid? It seems obvious to me that it was Elsa who thawed Anna, including Anna's heart, through love for her, expressed in grief.
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I think most people actually think it was Elsa, too, but most wikis go with it being Anna, since that's what's most supported by the text, as well as the metatextual material.
Anna's thawing is followed by this exchange:
Elsa: "You sacrificed yourself for me?"
Anna: "I love you"
Olaf: *gasps* "A true act of love will thaw a frozen heart!"
Olaf's revelation is right after Anna's sacrifice is labeled an act of love. This also fits with the explicit definition given earlier, "Love is putting someone else's needs before your own." Knowing that's what Olaf sees love as, what do you think he's more likely to think of as an Act of True Love: an act of sacrifice such as Anna putting Elsa's life above her own, or an act of physicality such a a hug?
Multiple Disney-published metatextual sources add weight to this, such as the books Anna's Act of True Love and A Frozen Heart. The official Disney website also says that Anna is the one who "proved that only an act of true love can thaw a frozen heart."
By contrast, there isn't really a reason to believe that anything Elsa did in the scene would work as an Act of True Love, especially given the movie's definition of love. After all, that's what Anna's whole arc is about. (It's not "You can't marry a man you just met," because Anna already knows that such a thing is "totally crazy." It's becoming wiser about what is and isn't love, something that even some adults never grasp, which makes it difficult for some viewers to pick up on.) The only reason there seems to be to think it's Elsa is viewers making the same mistake Anna initially does, which is confuse physicality with love. (Which does happen in a lot of fairy tale stories, but this particular one goes out of its way not to do that.)
Right. BUT. Anna's act of true love thawed Elsa's frozen heart, at which point she discovered that "love thaws, true love heals". Her "act" wasn't a hug, it was her grief.
Even so. The heart Anna thawed was Elsa's. Elsa magically undid the curse on Anna.
The curse can only be undone by Act of True Love, not an emotion. Anna is the character who performs an Act of True Love in that scene. Nothing Elsa does in that scene is an Act of True Love that would be capable of breaking the curse.
But the trolls said "a frozen heart" not "your frozen heart". Not that the curse needed thawing, precisely.
Anna has a frozen heart. "Only an Act of True Love can thaw a frozen heart" means that if any character like Anna has a frozen heart, only an Act of True Love can thaw it. Therefore, Anna's frozen heart can only be thawed by an Act of True Love.
If Anna's heart was frozen she'd be dead, and unable to commit an act of any kind.
She commits the act when she throws herself in front of the sword, as she's in the process of freezing but not quite done yet. And it's when she does die that the act of sacrifice is completed.
Apparently, there's a Nightmare Fuel cleanup thread, and it was deemed not salvageable there.
The Meaningful Name entry interprets Elsa's name as a reference to the heroine from Theatre/Lohengrin, but given that the name was chosen during a stage of production when she was evil and not isolated, it seems coincidental. The origin of the name is Hebrew for "oath of God" - maybe a reference to her creative power? Or maybe the writers just liked the name? Does anyone have any ideas?
Does "You got engaged to a guy you just met?" count as arc words? It only happens twice, and is worded differently both times rather than being a particular phrase, when Elsa and Kristoff each find out about the engagement and react with shock, which seems less a thematic thing or foreshadowing than just the expected reaction. They don't really hold much significance or particular m
Migration of character tropes
I am about to migrate all character-related trope examples away from the main page and onto the characters sheet (about 60 of them). The characters sheet is an extension of the work sheet and a trope should not live both places. see discussion here.
Is there such a thing as a double standard for villainy? I feel that lately Disney might have been showing one. With a female "villain" like the Snow Queen, they kept piling on more and more sympathetic factors to make her "relatable", refusing to have a female villain that the audience couldn't sympathize with, until there wasn't anything "villainous" about her. On the other hand, for a male villain, they don't mind pulling the villainy out their butts, giving no real reason for the guy's actions except "I want to rule" and doing so after showing absolutely no evidence of any form of negative in him beforehand.
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There is the trope Females Are More Innocent, but I don't think it applies. As classic Disney villains like Maleficent, the Evil Queen, Ursula, Cruella, etc. have shown, Disney has no problem with female villains who are evil just because.
Elsa is less a "sympathetic Disney villain" and more akin to a Decoy Antagonist like the Beast from Beauty and the Beast. Appears monstrous, but actually isn't.
Edited by Tuckerscreator
Lord of the Blue Star
I take issue with labeling Anna Too Dumb to Live as described here:
Too Dumb to Live: In the reprise of "For the First Time in Forever," Anna is oblivious to the increasingly violent snowstorm surrounding Elsa. The end result is a near-fatal ice blast to the heart
She knew her sister was powerful and possibly dangerous, but she also believed Elsa would never intentionally hurt her, which is also true. She believed by talking with her sister, she could get her to calm down and control her powers, and affirming to her that she isn't alone.
That isn't dumb.
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She isn't dumb. She just genuinely doesn't understand that Elsa's powers go haywire when she gets upset.
The cold never bothered me anyway
Flower
People have been debating whether or not Elsa fits the Mystical White Hair trope. Her hair is actually blonde, so it shouldn't fit the trope. If you look at the scene where Anna sacrifices herself for Elsa, you'll see that Anna's hair is white, but Elsa's is blonde, and it's clearly a different color than Anna's. In fact, you actually see some gold in her hair, proving it's a light shade of blonde.
In the movie the lighting that sometimes changes the way people perceive her hair color. Anyway, her base hair color is blonde. In fact, her hair color is fairly common in Scandinavia, where the movie takes place. Here's two screencaps with neutral lighting. (Remove spaces)
disney. wikia. com/wiki/File:Elsahansdungeon.jpg
disney. wikia. com/wiki/File:Anna%27s_fate.png
As for her powers affecting her genetics and making her hair blonde, I would suggest Power Dyes Your Hair since its more specific to Elsa's case.
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I would call it a shade of white but I'll go with whatever the tropers say. Based on the description I would say Power Dyes Your Hair does not apply.
Direct quote from the Power Dyes Your Hair page
"In a case similar to above, Frozen has Elsa who was born with ice powers and has platinum blonde hair, despite having a father who is a redhead and a mother who is a brunette. Word of God states that had Elsa been born without powers, she would have been a brunette like her mother."
I'm pretty sure it applies
I'm a flower
"* Magic Feather: Elsa's gloves don't actually hold back her powers, but her confidence in them to do so helps give her a measure of control over them. This also means that deliberately covering her hands to keep her from breaking out of a prison cell is only temporarily effective at best."
Any Word of God on this? Because 'provides enough interference for it to take an act of will to overcome' is an equally valid argument concerning the gloves' function.
I like this film, but isn't it a bit obnoxious for all the sub-pages to say "even by the standards of Disney" ("Frozen is really funny/sad/scary" etc) That sounds like really heavy YMMV. Wouldn't it be enough to say "Frozen is really funny/sad" etc. without that first line?
Edited by Lancelot07
Flower
I am nearly 100% sure that Elsa using her powers on Anna during their confrontation at the castle was not accidental. Elsa wanted Anna to leave and wanted her to stop telling her to fix the winter. She also explicitly stated the she can't fix the winter and refuses to try to. So her "I can't" at the end is retaliation against Anna and is out of pure anger for Anna trying to get Elsa to fix the winter. Her building the snow monster to KILL Anna also reinforces that it is intentional. And the writers originally also wanted it to be intentional as shown in "Life's Too Short."
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She did not build Marshmallow to kill Anna. Marshmallow initially just tossed Anna and co out of the castle, only charged at them when she attacked him, then after that just yelled at her to leave and not come back. If Elsa wanted Anna dead, she wouldn't have broken down in tears when she saw her sister's frozen corpse. As for Life's Too Short, back then Elsa was the villain and therefore would commit actions like attempted murder. Also, note their wording: they meant it then to be intentional, which therefore means it's not intentional now, in the finished draft. Elsa freezing Anna intentionally would be massively out of character in the final film, when she spent a whole decade shut in her room specifically so she would never do that.
Ok, I get what you are saying, but I still see the ice blast as something other than a pure accident. After all, Elsa was angry at Anna for bringing up the Endless Winter. Also, Elsa might have not wanted to kill her with the blast, but she may have blasted her as Big "SHUT UP!", not realizing it implications. Also, couldn't she have just made an ice slide, or used an ice wall to make Anna leave instead of making an easily angered 100 foot snow monster. (Yeah, Elsa's a bit of a "Fixer Upper")
I'm a flower
Well, what's the first thing you would do when you're freaking out that you've just injured your sibling? Elsa clearly wasn't thinking clearly at the time.
Even if the ice blast wasn't an accident, it's still pretty clear that Elsa didn't mean to hit Anna. Look at the horror on her face after the Big "SHUT UP!" scene.
To finish the up, here's how the scene is described in the screenplay: "Elsa’s fear, so strong, sucks the blizzard back into her and then it bursts out, unwittingly, like a sharp snowflake."
Elsa wasn't angry. She was panicking and Anna wasn't helping the matter. Having been in a similar situation (without magical ice, of course), I can tell you that the last thing someone under Elsa's state at the time needs is someone else going on and on and on about how to "help".
I can either be a devilish angel or an angelic devil. You decide.
Too old for this
Would there be a specific trope covering the bowlderisation of the painting of which Anna imitates the pose (that one
◊ - it's referenced in the main page under the Mythology Gag trope) ? The original features a man who gets a very special view of the woman on the swing, but he is absent from the painting appearing in the movie. Unless that counts as a Getting Crap Past the Radar ?
Pink Butterfly
A couple of questions. Why was the "Awesome Music" link removed from the quote below the bottom of the main page image ("The cold never bothered me anyway") and why is it now 52nd instead of 53rd? Where's the proof for that?
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Sugar Wiki stuff doesn't get linked on the main page.
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That answers one question.
I can either be a devilish angel or an angelic devil. You decide.
Wikipedia says it's 53rd. 52nd was probably just an error.
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Tightwire, you have got to stop screwing with these pages. I know they're a huge chunk of spoilers that you don't like, but that doesn't automatically mean that they need to be removed.
Is Love at First Sight deconstructed in this or exploited? It was changed on the character page and I've already taken it to the 'is this an example' thread so please go there to add your option.
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I'd say exploited. Deconstructed would be showing issues Love at First Sight has in real life (usually in the case of being In Love with Love and becoming bored of your partner because you liked them for superficial reasons). In this case, Hans is taking advantage of the trope to his own end in a not-terribly-realistic way.
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Two things, both about Elsa. The first is that I don't think that Pimped-Out Dress is right for her dress as the Snow Queen, as it seems a bit tame compared to what her contemporaries wear. Also her song "Let it go" feels like we should add a Then Let Me Be Evil trope.
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I would say it's fair enough to put Elsa's magical ice dress under the Pimped-Out Dress trope, as while it isn't as flamboyant or extravagant as other examples, it *is* made out of magical freaking ice! Also, that split on the skirt...
Edited by 142.105.245.127
I think Elsa doesn't fit under Pimped-Out Dress — basically the definition of pimping it out is having frills or flowers or whathaveyou. However, I would call it Impossibly Cool Clothes.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
Check out some high resolution pictures of the dress. It's certainly loaded.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
Judging by high-resolution images I can find, it seems a little ... inconspicuous to me.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Pimped Out means decorated, not "in your face" decorated. The decorations still have to be there (why a dress such as Aurora's just counts as Simple, yet Opulent), but they don't have to be immediately obvious.
Edited by 71.108.75.39 I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
I hear some people call Elsa a Mary Sue. Big Woobie, incredible powers, lack of real negative flaws, Creator's Favorite, to name a few. Due to Elsa being pretty loved, many don't seem to think so. Would she count as any kind? A mild Sympathetic Sue?
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None to all for me. One of the key aspects of any Sue character is a lack of character flaw. Her depression and deep rooted fears of hurting others with her powers driving her to cause more internal angst is very much a character flaw. This seems more like "calling a protagonist you don't like a Mary Sue" idea.
For Creator's pet, no. She fails the criteria: Hated by fans (The Scrappy): No. Elsa is very popular with most fans. Loved (or worshipped) by the writers (Creator's Favorite): Possibly. But she is a duantologist to the story. It is as much her growth and development as it is Anna's. Put into big scenes for no reason (Character Focus): No. She has very good reasons to have her screen time. Talked up by the other characters (Character Shilling): No. Not even Anna put her on a higher pedestal.
- Diabolus ex Machina: The Mole Hans seemed really contrived.
Not pulling this yet, but... how is it particularly contrived for someone to show up planning to seduce his way to the throne? We do not see such complaints over the Duke.
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Also, that reads like an Zero-Context Example.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lord
Removed this trope: "* Murder the Hypotenuse: Kristoff's family, the trolls, lightly suggest he get Anna's "fiance out of the way!" so he can make his move. ". This phrase can have many meanings, not just murdering someone, and it's very unlikely that this is what the trolls meant.
These ARE the droids we're looking for. That was lucky.
An odd thing I noticed but not sure where (or whether) to put it - the tune of "Do You Wanna Build A Snowman?" (at least the opening bars) is damn-near identical to Sweeney Todd's "Not While I'm Around".
"Why would I inflict myself on somebody else?"
Taken from the main page just in case something can be made of it.
- This isn't the first time Idina Menzel's played a misunderstood young woman who tries to hide her magical powers from everyone including her younger sister, and then accepts her abilities and begins to actively use them after a big musical number about that acceptance in the middle of the story.
- Jonathan Groff plays someone in another production set in a Germanic location with heavy winter/spring themes, and a runaway girl with a dark secret. Ilse is even a variant of Elsa, although the name is just a fun coincidence.
- Alan Tudyk plays yet another balding, grey haired Disney bad guy. Just the previous year, no less!
Elsa was very similar to Elphaba including in her main song, which lots of people have pointed out, but I didn't notice any specific references or gags to that effect. (Then again, I watched it in German, so I might have missed something. (Interestingly, German!Elsa is sung by Willemijn Verkaik who, like Idina Menzel, played Elphaba on stage.))
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
Well there are similarities both of them have names that start with E and and in A. Both of them Elphba and Elsa have powers of some sort. Their power is more frightening (?) when their emotions are running high (aka are being pushed). Both of their main songs are about 'being free' not having to be the 'perfect girl' anymore. Oh and both of them are the older sibling of another character.
Any way you look at it, it would all go into the trivia section.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
Could someone please, please please tell me/know the names of the other paintings beside the "Swing" painting in the "For the First Time in Forever" song? It's driving me bonkers and my parents are telling me to let it go I'm getting that upset.
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You can probably find the song online.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
The Supreme One
This troper was thinking about the chandelier and Hans thing, he looks up, runs over the the mook, pulls the crossbow into his field of view, and fires, as we have all figured out. What occurred to me is if Hans is Dangerously Genera Savvy, then the related trope Reality Ensues should be pulled into play. I have seen a chandelier fall on someone before, and what happens is the chandelier hits, the glass goes flying, and you find yourself waking up with some broken ribs under a twenty pound metal frame. That in mind, Hans doesn't know that Elsa froze Anna's heart, so he would be under the impression that he still needs to marry Anna. Anna won't marry him if he lets Elsa die, and he knows Elsa won't be willingly leaving the ice palace any time soon. So the only way to not kill Elsa and get her out without remotely seeming like a jerkass would be to somehow incapacitate her without it being his fault. If he is as Dangerously Genera Savvy as we think, he would have thought about all of this on the way to the ice palace, and then it would have probably been on his mind as he ran into the room. Let no Crisis go to Waste, and ta da, problem solved through Xanatos Speed Chess, he gets Elsa easily within reach for when she needs to die, and he doesn't have any blood on his hands, he wins that round.
Edited by 24.54.160.182 Hide / Show Replies
He looks benevolent and reasonable, while still playing the crowd and the victims.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
@Hidden Windshield, can you explain this edit please?
That's tot an example of Cradling Your Kill. The kill wasn't deliberate, and it was more of a hug than a cradle. Deleted line(s) 68 (click to see context) :
- Cradling Your Kill: Elsa hugging Anna, who was already frozen solid after being accidentally cursed by the former.
The page in question does not seem to require that the death be intentional, in fact there are a number of examples there that are from accidental kills. Now does literally cradling seem to be a requirement. (And really, how was she supposed to cradle Anna when she was frozen stiff?) So can you think of some other reason why this doesn't fit?
Thanks!
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It fits the trope. I don't know why it was removed. It also falls under My God, What Have I Done?.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
People keep saying that Anna's sacrifice cured her frozen heart, but didn't the moment she actually froze coincide with the moment she performed this sacrifice?
Am I missing something?
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Hm. I saw it as Anna's sacrifice coincidentally being at the very moment she froze (which allowed her to survive), and this sacrifice cured Elsa's frozen heart which meant she was able to thaw Anna. I may also be missing something, though.
That was the amazing part. Things just keep going.
I figure that the true love must be mutual. A true love's kiss is mutual, for example. Elsa didn't realize that Anna sacrifice until after she noticed her head was still attached to her shoulders. Anna and Elsa hadn't embraced in years. In fact, Elsa hasn't touch anyone else's bare flesh in years not even her parents. Breaking down to the point where she HAD to embrace Anna out of grief proved her love was true as well.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
Would it be alright to put Broken Aesop back up on the main page? Regardless of whether or not Kristoff and Anna's relationship solving everything, regardless of the fact that they don't get immediately married in the end, he's very clearly framed by the narrative as Anna's one true love and someone who probably could have saved her if the incident with Elsa hadn't happened. After two, three days of knowing each other.
Edited by 74.77.27.153 Hide / Show Replies
We don't know if he could have saved her or not.
The Protomen enhanced my life.
That's irrelevant. Anna and Olaf have a big, significant discussion on love, and how Kristoff loves her, and then there's the dramatic five minute race to get Anna to him so she can be saved. It's only at the last moment that Anna chooses to save Elsa, knowingly giving up her "cure" in the process.
The overall message is that yes, what this man feels for you is true love and real love and it's powerful enough to save you from turning to ice, even though you've only known each other for a grand total of two days. Hence, Broken Aesop.
But Kristoff didn't realize Anna was dying. He thought Hans would save her, but saw the blizzard forming. There was no reason for him to think that Hans was a bastard, Anna was still dying, and that Elsa was about to be murdered. He was worried Elsa's storm would kill her regardless of Hans' "true love" for her. Also, they don't nearly rush their relationship as much and Kristoff is too shocked to even react when she freezes whereas Elsa, who's known her a lot longer, breaks down completely. There's no real indication that Kristoff's and Anna's love is true love yet, just Anna's naivety about love convinces her that it is true. That was the whole point of Elsa being the one to save her. That love was forged over years whereas Hans' and Anna's was days old.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
You clicked on a link where someone linked it poorly. See The Problem with Pen Island.
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Pittsburghmuggle
""Shut Up" Kiss: Anna gives Kristoff one when he starts babbling."
I don't remember that - I thought their first kiss was at the end of the movie after he says "I could kiss you".
"Freedom is not a license for chaos" -Norton Juster's The Dot and the Line: A Romance in Lower Mathematics
It was never listed in this page in the first place.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
On Accent Adaptation you mean? Can't find anything there either. Also, I feel like asking why you put your question here rather than there.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
The Barbarian Gamer
During "Let It Go," would Elsa tossing her crown away be a subversion of a "Crowning Moment of Awesome" or just a really terrible pun? I can't tell, EVERYTHING'S funny at 3AM.
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since its already mentioned in trivia about at one point in development Elsa was at one point was a all out Disney villain , That under the trope, Missing Trailer scene that the scene containing the lines Now we just have to survive this blizzard!" and Anna replying "That's no blizzard; that's my sister!" with Elsa then conjuring up a blast of snow on top of the mountain is possibly from that version of the film
The tropemaster
Ok, so since it's under the trivia section, I pose this question: Does Elsa get over her childhood fears of her powers by Epiphany Therapy. There's certainly a case to be made for it, but my question is whether putting that on the tropes page might cheapen the journey the sisters go through.
Lord Eric Wu, Grandmaster of the order of Troping.
Been wondering, maybe it comes off as being pedantic, but does anyone else think that Anna and Elsa's dresses (not counting the latter's magic ice-gown) qualify mores as Simple, yet Opulent instead of Pimped-Out Dress? The rosemaling is beautiful work, but really, compared to dresses worn by their contemporaries- their dresses are more in line with Merida's turquoise presentation number and Aurora's signature princess dress (blue or pink, your call) than say, Belle's golden ball gown or Tiana's post-kiss-magic gown. ...could just be me.
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Rosemailing on a dress would require lots of stitching, which would be extravagant in the past. It's not as though those could just be slapped on the dresses.
I'm on the internet. My arguments are invalid.
This bugs me. People seem to forget about the fact that the oringally Snow Queen has a sister called the "Lady of the Summer". Gerda goes straight too the lady of summer after 'talking' to a tree in one version.
Under the Catchphrase section, Oaken and Family's fondness of saying "Yoo-hoo!" is mentioned, but it seems that Anna's usage of "Wait, what?" is overlooked. It's subtle, but she uses the phrase many times throughout the film, with Kristoff borrowing it in the epilogue. Thoughts?
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I don't think "Wait, what?" or "Yoo-hoo!" count as catchphrases at all. Just because someone says something a few times doesn't make it their catchphrase — in order to be one, it has to be a defining line for the character. Something along the lines of "It's clobberin' time!" "Bazinga!" or "Holy ____, Batman!"
Edited by 12.4.27.248
In Artistic License - Law, it says that Elsa couldn't have been accused of treason because she was the state. This seems odd to me, since there are Real Life examples of kings being tried, convicted, and executed for treason: King Charles I of England comes to mind.