Several problems with Justine's Karma Houdini entry.
- Justine Courtney undertakes a number of unethical and even illegal actions, and never receives any comeuppance. While part of it deals with her job on the P.I.C, it comes to a head in the 4th case, when she accepts a confession from Kay, who is amnesic at the time.
- She also rejects evidence that places reasonable suspicion on her as the killer, which would have removed her from any authority on the case, as it eventually does in the fifth case when she is the initial prime suspect.
- She's not the killer in either case, but her excuse for not murdering Jill Crane is "I'm a judge, so I couldn't do it."
- She also introduces a piece of fabricated evidence, which got Phoenix disbarred.
- When coupled with the fact that she had the opportunity to commit the murder, any reasonable person could conclude she was trying to throw off the police.
- But she gets away with it scot-free.
You have to follow the universe's law as it is written. We see this in Rise from the Ashes with Lana Skye, and we see it in Case 5 when Shi Long Lang mentions it. They are removed from investigative authority when they are suspects for murder.
Case 4 has this with the keycard record: Justine has access to the crime scene and admits to being there. This turns her into a suspect. As we saw in Case 5, suspects have no authority at a crime scene, even if they are not under arrest.
In regards to "forged evidence" being introduced by Gavin, I have to say you must be completely bonkers. Neither Gavin introduced forged evidence: Kristoph commissioned the forgery, but he wasn't disbarred for it: Phoenix was disbarred for submitting it.
Justine introduces two piece of fabricated evidence: The letter that was in Jill Crane's pocket (that couldn't have existed because of the candleabra) and the forged autopsy report (while it was Bonnie Young that did the actual forgery, it was Justine who used the evidence). Even if you try to ignore the latter, the former evidence is planted. It's refuted by basic physics.
When you couple this with the fact that Justine did not admit to the keycard record (and gives a shoddy excuse as to her lack of motive, particularly when Justine used fabricated evidence to give a motive to Kay), there's some serious legal shennigans here. By the Phoenix standard, she would have been completely disbarred.
When Kay is arrested, Justine specifically uses the letter as a motive, claiming the two of them had a meeting. However, that evidence has already been proven to be a fabrication (Justine was even there when it was proven). That's exactly what was used to disbar Phoenix: Using fabricated evidence. Justine did it, she wasn't punished.
The idea that Justine is punished by having her son kidnapped has nothing to do with the case, he wasn't kidnapped because of anything related to Justine's forgery, that was to get a specific verdict.
It sounds to me like you just flat out don't want to consider the fabricated evidence. But she did do it.
Edited by Matt620
Fine, just when you re-add her entry don't forget to get one for Edgeworth for his illegal investigation after he gave up his badge, plus you might throw in using forged evidence in SL-9 as a bonus, and for Apollo for using that bloody ace. While you're at it you might as well throw in one for Harry Potter for every time he broke school rules without anyone noticing and for rebels from Star Wars for fighting against legally chosen ruler. Karma Houdini is for avoiding punishment for doing BAD things, not just those which are illegal. Whether or not what she did wasn't legal is completely irrelevant to this trope. Like i said defending yourself from wrong accusation is NOT bad thing to do.
About this forgery no need to be agressive. I simply misunderstood the initial entry which looked like Justine was somehow responsible for that diary page that got Phoenix disbarred.
Just because there isn't direct relation between bad things she did and bad things that happened to her doesn't mean that it's disqalified as karmic punishment. Like i said the worst thing she did was accusing Kay(which i must say was also part of the plan to get Ichiyanagi) and ultimately nothing bad came out in the long term, and getting son kidnapped IS bad thing that could happen to mother. If one week after the game ended she died in car accident caused by someone else being drunk would she be considered Karma Houdini? of courne not. She did bad thing, and bad thing had happened to her, that's how Karma works.
PS: In case you didn't notice AA justice system and law heavily favors prosecution, and Justine is a jugde. You really don't think that she could get away with far more than defence attorney?
Dude, chill.
And stop trying to change the subject with irrelevant points: We are discussing Justine, and her lack of punishment for doing the inexcusable: Using forged evidence to convict an innocent girl for murder, despite the fact that she's not only AWARE it's a forgery, but was called out specifically for introducing it. That she got away with scot-free. That's Karma Houdini. She didn't "accuse" Kay, she flat out arrested her.
It's not excusable to use attempting to get Debeste as her reason. That still ignores what she did being wrong. And getting no recourse for it.
You may want to reread the trope.
I'm perfectly chilled. And i'm not changing anything i'm merely considering everything that is being said. it's been a while since i played so i don't remeber how exacly this went. Maybe she really did try to arest Kay with this forgery, and if that's the case i'm ok with it being rewriten to this form(for her getting away with framing Kay using forgery). Doesn't change the facts that original entry was mistaken on several parts and misleading on another. Like i said earlier it was written in such away that author seemed to want to make her Karma Houdini for defending herself from wrong accusation and being a good suspect, and the forgery was mentioned in one sentence that made her look like she's somehow responsible for Phoenix's disbarment. However if it's rewritten to a more digestible and factually correct form it may stay.
With the English patch of the full game of Investigations 2 out, should we replace all entries mentioning the Japanese names of any characters who debuted in AAI2 with the names from the fan patch? Or should we keep the Japanese names as it is until (in the unlikely event) Capcom chooses to officially localize AAI2?
Reason I'm asking is because I've seen some people going out of their way to change the AAI2 character's names to the fan translation names in AAI and some parts of the series' character pages while other entries, such as the main page for the Ace Attorney franchise and other sub-pages, have the names remain unchanged.
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I was wondering this myself. When adding new examples, I've been using the fan translation names because of the note on the main page (and also because, to me, "Edgeworth and Kay and Tateyuki and Mikagami and Yumihiko" sounds a little bit stranger to the localized LA setting than does "Edgeworth and Kay and Raymond and Courtney and Sebastian"), but I haven't changed any of the Japanese names on the sub pages because it feels a little presumptuous to do so without making an official decision.
Personally, I think we should change the Japanese names to the Prosecutor's Path localized ones for consistency's sake, at least until/if Capcom does an official translation. Anyone care to weigh in?
If there is no official translation, one should use the fan translation names, yeah. As for the Japanese names, I would stick with the ones from the game, not from the fan translation.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
sleepy_eyes
Since Ace Attorney Investigations 2 is not being localized any time soon, would making entries based off the Let's Translate be reasonable? There's some very relevant stuff in that game.
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I've been doing that occasionally, but sticking to Japanese names and trying to avoid any examples that might be specific to the translation, like Shout Outs.
Now it seems like people have changed the names to the ones from the playable fan translation- is that proper? It might be somewhat confusing, particularly for people who have only watched the dowolf version.
Edited by 96.253.22.197
Now that we've made separate pages for all the games in the Phoenix trilogy, shouldn't we separate both the Investigation games, too?