Not gonna edit that right away (to prevent arguments on the Trope page), so I'll put it up here for now.
Vivian is not actually a male, at any given moment. Yes, not in the japanese original, either.
Admittedly, it's a bit confusing, but allow me to elaborate. In japan, certain manners of speech are tied to specific gender (like old men having distinct 'old man' ways of expressions compared to young men). This also can apply to addressing others (you can address the gender of a person in japanese in order to highlight it or simply give it mention). This way of talking is at play in the case of Beldam and Vivian. Basically, Beldam 'calls' Vivian masculine by talking to her as if she was a boy. This is a somewhat old-fashioned way of bullying, not an actual identification of gender or body type. It's basically like calling a boy a girl (for whatever possible reason), and Beldam uses it both to undermine Vivian's cuteness (possibly out of envy, but it's never mentioned in-game, except for Beldam occasionally pointing out her own nonexistent attractiveness) as well as attacking her self-esteem. Vivian's gender is never explicitly mentioned, but it's VERY safe to assume that she is actually female.
I'll try to find the source that explained it properly as backup, but for now, I simply wanna know how other Tropers see this, and whether it should be corrected or noted (or neither, if you don't believe it).
Edited by Kaze_Memaryu Hide / Show Replies
If this is to be believed,
Vivian's gender is explicitly mentioned a few times in the Japanese.
I dunno who wrote that, but for the most part, it's incorrect, or rather, incomplete, in terms of covering all possibilities within context.
In the wiki entry, the alternatives of gender-specific addressings are not mentioned in any ways (for example, as a description of behaviour, looks, or manners of speech), which shouldn't really be left as is, but is up to the wiki contributers to deal with.
As for Goombella seemingly correcting herself on Vivian's gender, it's more of an extension of the joke, in that even she gets confused by Beldam's insults.
Most of what I drew from originated on this discussion and some research on japanese "insult culture": http://www.gamefaqs.com/boards/920182-paper-mario-the-thousand-year-door/50205289
But okay, that's why I didn't dare to touch the tropes page. Both ends are a possibility, neither is definite. I was probably a bit to keen on my version, but it might be better to just leave everything as it is. The last thing TV Tropes needs is heated gender discussions. Either way, thanks for the quick reply. I'll leave it to others to decide on the way this is taken.
I know you may argue against Grodus and Beldam being a Big Bad Ensemble, but here my argument. Even though Beldam was responsible for leading people down to the Shadow Queen, she never says that she manipulated Grodus himself. Even then, it's Grodus who does everything and the one that the protagonists are trying to stop, and Beldam doesn't seem to be too involved with the X-Nauts. Though Beldam is apparently working under Grodus, she is actually taking advantage of him to resurrect the Shadow Queen as well. Beldam is more like a separate, higher Big Bad than Grodus rather than the only Big Bad.
Edited by SatoshiBakura Hide / Show Replies
Bumping this for a response. I'm planning to restore them as a Big Bad Ensemble, but I would like someone to provide a counter-argument first.
Also, while Grodus may think that Beldam is his Dragon, she is only pretending to work for him. She has the same goal as Grodus, but is masterminding her own ways of unsealing the queen rather then just taking Grodus' orders. Beldam is ultimately running her own agenda, but Grodus doesn't realize it. And like I said before, Grodus is not merely an Unwitting Pawn, but a villain running an agenda that crosses over with another's. Both of them are the reason why the plot happened.
Edited by SatoshiBakura
I see where you are going with this, I just don't think it qualifies for the Big Bad Ensemble trope.
From Big Bad Ensemble's description: "Remember this must be simultaneous - if a new Big Bad arises only after another is defeated, then this does not count."
That's the problem here. Beldam is not outed as a Big Bad until Grodus is already defeated, and before that reveal, you're led to believe that Grodus is the sole Big Bad and that Beldam is just one of his minions.
So yes, in a way there are two Big Bads, they just don't qualify for Big Bad Ensemble.
Yes, Beldam is outed as a Big Bad after Grodus was defeated. But she didn't arise to become a Big Bad after Grodus' defeat, but was merely revealed that she manipulated the game opposite of Grodus. They serve as Big Bad at the same time, yet Beldam isn't outed until the end. So the hidden Big Bad Ensemble is for the whole game, not just at the end when Beldam reveals herself.
Following the Mario wiki, Beldam informed Grodus of the treasure. And the entire reason to Grodus be a problem in the game is because of his treasure hunt. In other words, she caused his actions.
^ That's not really stated in game though...just that Beldam spread the rumors of a treasure (I re-watched the cutscene). Grodus knew about the Shadow Queen. Even having Beldam inform Grodus of the Shadow Queen, she's only indirectly responsible for him antagonizing the protagonists throughout the game. As far as Beldam seems to be concerned, Grodus may have been any other person. But he is the one antagonizing Mario and friends via the X-Nauts, which Beldam doesn't seem to have much to do with (I know she's pretending to work for Grodus, but you never see her with an army of X-Nauts). But again, watching the cutscene, she never said that she manipulated Grodus, but that she spread the rumors of a treasure and led the protagonists to the Shadow Queen.
I would say they are similar to the Director and Sigma from Red Vs Blue. The Director works to reach his goals, but loses control of the situation. Sigma manipulates others into helping him, and gains control of the situation.
You're focusing too much on the "Beldam never said she manipulated Grodus" bit. Just because she did not spell it out word for word, it does not mean she didn't manipulate him. If she wasn't manipulating him, she wouldn't have feigned loyalty to him. Sure, that Unwitting Pawn could've been anyone, but that doesn't change the fact that Grodus is the one who took the bait.
I almost feel like there should be a section dedicated to the Glitzpit's usage of Professional Wrestling tropes. It's interesting that everyone in the Minor League seems to be Face but the Goombas, and all of he Major League seem to be Heels but Hamma.
Unfortunately none of the teams quite fit a Power Stable line up. I wonder if any Fan Work has played on the potential there.
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I've put some thought into it, and I could easily form a Koopa Troop Power Stable
- The Centerpiece: Bowser (Also the Muscle)
- The Heir Apparent: Bowser Jr
- The Manager: Kammy Koopa and Kamek (A blue robed Magikoopa)
- The Enforcer: The Koopinator (The Dark Koopatrol in the Major Leagues)
- The Point Man: Shellshock (A Shady Koopa from the Major Leagues)
- The Hanger On: The other Shady Koopas on Shellshock's team, The Shellshockers
It's interesting how all of the Major League fighters but Hamma have Heel personalities, but all of the Minor League fighters have face personalities except the team that gets demoted down there when The Great Gonzalez makes the Major Leagues.
Edited by 216.99.32.45
Would anyone have any objections to giving Luigi's adventures their own section on the page? It's practically an entirely separate story.
That's me.
PaperMaster
- Badass Spaniard: Cortez; a badass, undead spaniard.
Badass Spaniard has been renamed to Dashing Hispanic. The trope requires some necessary characteristics, like being a rogue Anti-Hero of wit and charm, kind of like Zorro. There is not enough context to tell if it fits here.
"If you aren't him, then you apparently got your brain from the same discount retailer, so..." - Fighteer Hide / Show Replies
Let's see if I can remember all the traits he hits: has the name, has the accent/speaking pattern, he's a pirate, good with his swords, swore revenge on Flavio's family line, has a bit of a sense of honor and decided to work with the party only after you kick his butt and return the skull that makes his ghost ship run. He probably qualifies more as an anti-villain, though.
....!?
Do we really need all the "p"s removed in entries involving Doopliss? I know it's for a joke, but it makes it rather annoying when reading. Will anybody object to me adding the ps back?
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Yeah, I'd have to agree with you, it's pretty ridiculous.
BOOM. Ah, frig, the fourth wall was broken AGAIN.
Besides, the logic doesn't work on two levels. First, you can still use "p"s in conversation during the events. Second, if you know what his name is, then you already have the "p" back.
"Smorg, the Chapter 6 boss, was originally supposed to be something that Beldam summoned to hinder Mario, but this was cut for some reason, leading to it just being some random menace that showed up to stop the train at Riverside Station and hitched a ride while it was stuck there."
Actually, it is implied in the game that the Shadow Sirens are responsible for Smorg. Just before you enter Riverside Station, the conductor says that he saw a "suspicious-looking, shadowy person wearing a hat enter the station" and that "he must've gone down to the bridge-control room to flip the switch there..."
Edited by ProtoStrata