Discussion VideoGame / MassEffect3

Yes, they have been locked because some vandal used to spam them with junk reviews. I think you should ask on Ask The Tropers for assistance.

The Mass Effect trilogy as a series is kind of a RPG Wide-Open Sandbox much in the same veign as Knights Of The Old Republic, and they would have to be the three best games ever made, at least until Batman Arkham Origins come out. Whatever faults can be leveled at them do not take away from it...for the most part, I'll detail the games with as few spoilrs as I can but you might like to have a look around about the third game and draw your own conclusions.

As far as how RPG it is, Mass Effect 1 was completely RPG where you would collect many different items, modifications for your guns, you collected experience through farming enemies and searching as many worlds as you can and uncovering research so you could gain XP for the many different talents they could be spent on.

As far as quests go as well as all the worlds to explore there's plenty of special side missions to go on. Around the time you become a Specter you are asked to try and have a grieving husband's wife returned to him, who died, but the military is holding the body for tests that could save many lives, so it's a difficult moral choice with no clear right or wrong answer. Depending on the background of your character you might be asked to talk a girl who was taken as a slave from your home town out of committing suicide, or a gang you ran with tries to blackmail you. Stick with taking one character for most of the game and you might open up a special mission for them.

Mass Effect 2 streamlined a lot of the RPG elements from the first game, you can no longer farm XP, you are given a set amount for completing a mission to spend on a much smaller field of talents, and you only have a base set of guns but instead you collect minerals on the ground and by scanning planets to spend on upgrades for you and your characters.

The main quest is to build a Dream Team to go on a suicide mission, however this comes along with special missions for each character, with increases their chances of survival. One is to hunt down a space vampire. Another is straight from a Richard Laymon novel. One DLC character has you infiltrating a crime lord's mansion with her for a heist. And as well as smaller missions like saving a crashing ship or raiding pirates there are so many things you can make a slight detour to do. For example you might come across a Space Jew accused of theft, this takes maybe a minute to resolve and if you have your own Space Jew in the party the scene is expanded upon. And there are so many things that are added if you import an old save from the first game it's not even funny.

Mass Effect 3 again plays around with the RPG elements. Now the main idea is this huge storyline as well as lots of side missions and little detours you can make that will really help the war effort. Again you gain XP as you play through the game rather than by completing missions, and you have a larger and more varied list of skills to spend them on. You get the same weapons from the second game plus new ones, but now you can add different mods to them to penetrate cover, zoom in, see through smoke, ect.

As far as the gameplay goes I think playing the actual missions are the best of the three games, but the story is not as tight and it can become maybe a little confusing or disorientating to play, and you might not be quite sure of what to do next. Then there is the endings. If you missed the controversy then my advice is before playing the game download the free Extended Cut and especially if you are a fan of the series invest in buying the Citadel DLC and it will be a much more satisfying experience.

So all in all whether you are really into RPG style play or you're not if you haven't bought the trilogy yet then what are you waiting for? Go out and buy them, and get the DLC for it as well. Stolen Memory, awesome. Overlord, awesome. Lair of the Shadow Broker, awesome. Citadel...not to everyone's tastes but still awesome. And Extended Cut is a compulsory download, trust me, if you do not download this free add on then you will regret it as it makes the third game a much better experience.

Destructible Projectiles sounds like the best bet. Just say it's difficult.

That's perfect.

I'd say it's not YMMV. It doesn't makes sense for harbinger to just ignore the ship that's been troubling him for the entire war, when it's a sitting duck in plain view. The Reaper IFF helps when Reapers aren't focusing to hard, but the Normandy is right there, in plain sight. Even if the Reaper IFF identified the Normandy as a Reaper, Harbinger isn't dumb enough to ignore the distinct visual profile and lack of response long enough for the Normandy to hover there for over a minute. The other excuses could be explained away (The Normandy was already in atmo and was really close by, any shuttles are pinned down or unavailable), but the Normandy not being vaporized is nothing but this trope. Since it isn't YMMV, it should stay.

I agree. Harbinger looks right at the Normandy for several seconds without doing anything just for the sake of drama.

The "IT WAS THE IFF!" excuse is rather hollow since, again, Harby was looking right at it AND the IFF doesn't actually protect against Reapers in the galaxy map. It's just wild mass guessing that's been jossed.

So, since there doesn't appear to be any response, can we re-add it?

I would object. I believe it was discussed at least a few times in the Mass Effect Fridge page, and they came to the same conclusion: Reaper IFF and the Normandy stealth drive. Just adding in my two cents.

The obvious flaw in that logic, besides it being flat-out Wild Mass Guessing, is that Reapers can kill the Normandy, and having a stealth drive doesn't matter if Harbinger was literally looking right at them the whole time. He has eyes, and it has been shown before that Reapers can... you know, see.

And you know this how? How do you know it's not the IFF? (Note: I think this is getting nowhere.)

A Reaper looks directly at Shepard on Rannoch. With his eye. That he sees with. Going with "it was the IFF" and assuming that Reapers can see no other way is flat-out Wild Mass Guessing, and a way bigger leap than assuming that they can see like everyone else.

This is a Voodoo Shark, plain and simple. Reapers don't notice the Normandy until it buzzes around, true, but when they do notice it they immediately attack and destroy it. Harbinger clearly notices it and is looking directly at it the whole time. Simply saying "well, he's probably just blind" is beyond nonsensical.

So can we re-add it now?

I'm going to contend this. This is presuming that Harbinger can actually SEE. It's possible he doesn't have optical vision as we understand it, but rather senses emissions, electronic signals, etc. It is, after all, a ship. Those "eyes" are just lights on its head, not necessarily optics.

The Reaper on Rannoch seeing Shepard is understandable, as Shepard wasn't cloaked or using a powerful mass effect engine to hide herself, nor does she have a Reaper IFF in her head that would disguise her.

So it's basically two points:

• The Normandy is a super stealth ship, most advanced in the galaxy
• Stealth systems + IFF means Harbinger couldn't detect the Normandy, since he doesn't have ocular vision

Also, the point about how fast the Normandy got there doesn't hold, I think. It can travel faster than the speed of light.

I say remove it. If still contested, then at least remove the part about the Normandy. That's my take.

I have to agree with CPFMfan on this one. The Normandy's stealth field explicitly blocks it from being detected by radars and the like, but anyone with a working eye looking at it from a window can see it plain as day. Claiming that the Reapers doesn't have a visual sense is quite an assumption that isn't really supported by the lore, although I must of course admit that there isn't really anything that says they do either.

The point about how fast the Normandy gets there is, however, pretty much rock solid. It requires the Normandy to able to break off from the battle and any attackers, travelling through an atmosphere (where it can't move at light-speed for obvious reasons), and get to where to were Shepard is in about 5 seconds. And yes, that is actually the time it it takes in-game.

I say go for it. I seem to recall that was set up as a precaution against the ending backlash. It's died down for the most part, and there's the reasons you stated, so there's little reason to keep it.

If there is a trope for it, I can't find it.

Seems like a general instance of Anti-Climax, would be an Anti-Climax Boss except, well, there isn't one. Closest this troper can think of would probably be a severe case of But Thou Must! but that isn't totally accurate.

Not quite. As the Catalyst explains to you, galatic civilization's success in constructing the Crucible and Shepard being the first organic to come before it convinces it that the Reapers are a failed solution to its problem. Your actions make the Catalyst decide to help you put an end to the Reapers, which is what you were trying to do all along. Add in how the amount of effort you put into constructing the Crucible determines what options are available to you and how well the activation of the Crucible goes, and your stance falls apart.

After all, there is the climatic confrontation against the Illusive Man in the Citadel.

I personally don't think so, if only because there don't seem to be that many entries from multiplayer. Or maybe it's just the colossal size of the page that's screwing with my perception. In any case, I don't think it's necessary.

It's made pretty clear throughout the game that the Reapers are winning the war. Even in the final battle, the best you can do is just holding them off. So it isn't a Take That! because it's made clear that you're not winning without using the Crucible.

Wouldn't that in itself be a Take That!? Fans didn't want the endings so Bio Ware had come out with the bad ending and telling fans if they want a good ending they have to do it their way.

Well, considering shooting him leads to eventual victory, I doubt it. Just because it wasn't victory for our cycle doesn't make it a victory. Not only that, but Bio Ware was quite clear this is what was going to happen if you didn't take the choice the Star Child offered you. Bio Ware just presented a new ending that satisfied some people—being able to say "no", and die on their terms with the possibility of victory.

Not only that, but it sort of was an ending in the first game. If you waited around for a while before taking any action, the screen would pop up with "The Crucible has been destroyed" and it was a Critical Mission Failure.

Not that I can think of. It doesn't fit Your Approval Fills Me with Shame because, as you said, neither of them are villains, and hell, they even get along well with each other. Not So Different is out, 'cause it's nothing new, and there was never really much evidence otherwise. Stealth Insult and Compliment Backfire don't fit, because I honestly don't think Vega meant it as either, just a straight-up observation

I don't know. I still think Not So Different is the closest, but that's not really good enough. Unless someone else can think of something, we may just have to leave this one off the books.

I think it should only go on headscratchers if you have an issue with it. I'm not entirely clear on the purpose of an Analysis page as applied to works, but something should probably go there, right? And as for Fridge, whether it fits into Logic or Brilliance or all that is just like 'scratchers, it all depends on the tone, from my way of seeing things.

So if it doesn't bug you, or if it wasn't a eureka moment, I'd say slap it onto Analysis. I'd be interested in reading it, and if a mod yells at you, you can direct the blame at me.

It's purely speculation on my part and it doesn't irritate me at all. I got inspired by the Artificial Brilliance entry and started to see the patterns of other video game combat AI and how it works in this game.

I guess I might as well slap it in Analysis and if nobody bothers me about it then it stays.

Might be a problem. The page for 'Analysis' asks for things about how the tropes fit into the work but the thing I'm talking about is the game mechanics and not the tropes. Is that a problem?

There are tropes for mechanics. Artificial Brilliance, Artificial Stupidity, Difficulty Levels, Numerical Hard and its aversions. Do any of those fit into your analysis?

Ah ha! There it is. Artificial brilliance and difficulty would. Thank you for the suggestions.

Explain? I'm not sure what you're talking about. I thought Jack got wrapped up on Earth before the final push, or TIMmy's base if you didn't go to Grissom. Was there an ending she was mentioned in?

If you rescue her and the kids from Grissom, then tell them to do support roles, you get a screenshot of her standing with all of them in a classroom of sorts. If you tell them to go to the front lines, you get a shot of Jack standing alone in front a row of graves, assumed to be her students.

Yes. Directly above me is what I was referring to. Sorry, I was trying not to spoil... and ended up being confusing... probably.

Ah. Well then...

...

Um.

Survivor Guilt? I don't know, it's kinda hard to categorize. I know she thanks Shepard for assigning the kids backseat roles. Does she lambast him/her if s/he gives them more aggressive roles? The way I saw it, she'd attached herself to her students and didn't want them to get hurt. Huh. There isn't really a trope for 'protective teacher', either.

That seems like a very baby-out-with-the-bathwater way of going about it, because it means all us legitimate tropers can't edit the page, either. For all we know that could have been the troll's intention all along. Is there a way to IP-ban him or something?

He's been bounced, as far as I can tell, but as long as he can be bothered to find new computers and such then he can keep going. There's an edit request for locked pages thread in the FAQ forum. Locking the pages makes it a lot less work clearing up after him and all.

Indeed, there is a thread specifically for your dilemma. Ask away if you have an edit.

We have banned multiple socks and bounced those that are bouncable, but he's using proxies, throwaway email accounts, etc. There's simply no way to IP ban him. We just have to wait for him to get bored. Which he will if we don't respond to him - most trolls are only looking for the gratification of a reaction.

When is it getting unlocked?

^Once we are sure the vandal isn't coming back.

@_@

There is someone so militant about trashing this page that he's trolling internet cafes just to do it?

This is the fifth time the discussion had to be cleaned up in two days because of extreme Fan Haters. The irony is that it is so bad that those who would have played and enjoyed the games and endings now don't want to touch them with a forty foot barge pole. I was going to do a review of the endings to show what's good and bad about it (how it fits a paragonrenegade Shepard for example) but that would simply cause too much grief.

This guy's been hitting the video game page for Ruined Forever now. I think he's just trawling through the wiki looking for anything Mass Effect related to attack.

That bearded badass who runs this place should have editing lockout for new accounts coded in soon. Needless to say that will help a lot.

Can we make a list of tropes we wish to add somewhere?

HAHAHAH! Laugh with Me!! Looks like the troll is back, pulling some stunt involving alternating capital letters, but the admins have Two Words: Obvious Trope for hi/r: No-Sell!!!

The troll was here just yesterday. So, no unlocking yet.

How about now? It's been two weeks, which is like 12834894 years in Internet time.

He was here today. And yesterday. And the day before. So, still no.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand he's back. I think.

Great. Another edit I made today gets that sent to slammer. Somebody attach the cuffs before I get unleashed yet again. Seriously though, all I intended to do was attach those youtube vids as concrete proof to prove the original message true, regarding the ending. That is all. There was no intent on injecting ambiguity, but rather the contrasting attitudes in Paragon and Renegade Shepard with his/her speech as the new Reaper leader.

As stated in the second edit, from what I understand, the slideshows will be altered, depending on your overall decisions in ME 3 (the renegade one showed the result of Tuchanka if you sabotaged the genophage cure, for example), and whoever died in the process. Sure, it reflects the renegade side, but isn't necessarily the same path you must do to reach that point of being Renegade Shepard. Remember, Bioware also used the extended cut to better illustrate your personal quest, so the slideshow isn't completely static. What the vid shows is the video creator's Shepard, but it's by no means definitive. That's also shown in the youtube comments, with numerous viewers wondering the differences between their own Shepards and the video uploader's Shepard. I even found a different Renegade Shep Control ending that shows slight differences, so there could be numerous variations of this. That wasn't the point of the video, so I thought that part was irrelevant.

I hope that clears the conflict up. By no means was I trying to force my point of view. I simply thought what0080 missed the point, so I explained why I placed that there the first time, and why his Shepard having Miranda still being alive doesn't invalidate the vid's point.

Agreed I didn't see much of a potential for an Edit War and was about to put t3hdow's message back and agree with the statement before it was pulled and I decided to wait and see what action would be taken. Personally I support putting back what was pulled.

I would, but my segment (the second one) obviously contrasts with the other one, so I'd rather reach a consensus with other tropers. I didn't want to edit it down, because I disagreed with it, because that would be wrong. :P

To me, the extended cut makes "Control" look more renegade than "Destroy", especially with the Renegade Shepard's version. It's impossible not to get a Space Nazi vibe, hearing that dialogue. The implications aren't entirely pleasant, and even with Paragon Shep's more philanthropic vision, there's always that risk of the Shepard AI going mad with power. Destroy and Synthesis's gray areas are clearer, given that it involves either "genocide of synthetics" or "forcing organics to be synthetic", but they also positive sides too (notably Synthesis, though the eyes...Jesus, that looks creepy). Therefore, the extended cut further fleshed out the Gray-and-Gray Morality, not disproved them.

Thoughts?

Agreed on the thought that it enhances Grey and Grey Morality. I'm not sure many people know that the endings for Control are different for Renegade/Paragon shepards or not yet. However after seeing the linked videos I have to agree that all the endings have their good and bad parts and it's hard to say one is better than the others still.

Personally removing the natter from the second paragraph and removing the first entirely makes a lot more sense to me.

If your war assets are high, the "Destroy" ending hints this possibility, but it's never explicit. In "Control" and "Synthesis", it's clear that Shepard either turns into the Reaper god, or dies for good, and in both of them, your crew attaches Shepard's name onto the ship's memorial plaque. In "Destroy", your crew hesitates doing this. Even before the extended cut, in the golden ending, you can see the cinematic of Shepard coughing in the rubble.

I believe it was confirmed by a Bioware employee on the BSN. Once I'm not at work, and on a computer that lets me get to that site, I can try and track it down. Unless anyone else wants to sort through the forum for the right post...

You don't know the half of it. I feel like I had to kill a unicorn to win a text adventure. Expressing that opinion...well I'm glad it's cold enough where I am to snow, I'd be roasted alive otherwise.

You ask here

Ah, thanks.

You can request edits to locked pages on the forum, for future reference. :)

I wondered the same thing, actually. I can see Tali letting A/K know (if she's Shepard's new romance), and the reunion with a romanced Thane is right there in the hospital, but how would they know about any of the others? :|a

You can request edits to locked pages on the forum, for future reference. :)

I wondered the same thing, actually. I can see Tali letting A/K know (if she's Shepard's new romance), and the reunion with a romanced Thane is right there in the hospital, but how would they know about any of the others? :|a

Sorry, until they unlock Mass Effect and its sub pages there won't be any.

You can request edits to locked pages on this forum thread.

Kelros appears earlier in the mission, harassing the Krogan convoy as they head towards the Salarian tower.

Kalros hasn't specifically been mentioned before, but her species has - abundantly - and we've even met them on the same planet before. I wouldn't consider it any more of a Deus Ex Machina than if, say, a fantasy hero travelled to the kingdom's capital and there had a happy run-in with the king. Unexpected, but not surprising.

Also, though I don't have the link handy, Cerberus Daily News from ME 2 once had a newsflash about an unprecedentedly large maw in the area, but it was dismissed as a korgan myth, so that's (Vague, easily missed) foreshadowing.

I think they just wanted to give us a cool Thresher Maw vs Reaper fight, and gave one a title for that reason, if they wanted to, it could of been any other Maw, but they gave one a backstory instead. BUT. The hammers/keystones to summon Kalros aren't Deus Ex Machina, the button you constantly pressed in ME 2? Sound a little familiar? It summoned the Thresher Maw that you fought. Kalros' hammers are just on a larger and more deliberate scale.

One of the lead writers did comment on the fact that due to the Mass Relays, no one ever even thought to explore higher speeds then the top ships (including the Normandy) in pretty much every fleet... so it's possible that they might make ships go even faster.

↑ That's about what I figured as well. Odds are that the galatic races are technologically advanced enough to improve on ship technology, but never needed to because of the Mass Relays. They might even eventually be able to replicate the Mass Relays or their functionality—they'd be able to get a better inspection of the relays now that they're inactive/destroyed. It's also been theorized that the technology behind the Mass Relays is already being used on a much smaller scale in the Vanguard's Charge ability.

There's a Fanfic Recs page under Mass Effect. The page isn't locked, so you should be able to add it.

Unfortunately the Twitter page itself is now defunct but I felt it was worth mentioning anyways. Thanks. If it doesn't qualify because it is now defunct then go ahead and take it down.

If you mean, what I think you mean, it will certainly backfire. Unless it's either free, or released with so much other content to count as an expansion.

It might. It might piss off a lot of people, it might lose them a lot of sales. But the rumors say it's going to be free. And it if turns out to be what I think it might be...

That would be a level of audience immersion never before seen, in any fiction.

I scoffed at the theories at first. But looking back at scenes throughout the game, there's a lot of foreshadowing and evidence I didn't pick up on. And the more I think about it, the more plausible it becomes.

Wait, David, are you suggesting that Bioware is going to make an ending confirming the indoctrination theory? I highly doubt that.

Good news and Bad news. The bad news is that Bioware's extended ending DLC is only that: Extended Ending. That means that nothing about it will change only that there will be a few more scenes and/or lines of dialogue to try and justify the current ending. No indoctrination theory, not different endings, no lasting satisfaction. The good news is that it will be 100% free and available for download soon.

Now if only they made a character model for Tali's face... Maybe that should be the next big protest eh?

The games plot is "HEY! YOU GUYS! STOP BEING SO WORTHLESS." I think we can expect to stick it in the councils noses finally.

You know you want this to happen.

They do get somewhat of a slap in the face. The Asari councilor admits that every time they doubt Shepard it comes back to bite them in the butt. The Turian Councilor even gives a sincere apology for not trusting him/her and thanks for saving their lives. Guess that will have to do.

Well if that wasn't reason enough to rejoice, tomorrow we're getting Vorcha, Ex-Cerberus operatives, and multiplayer maps for thessia and sur'kesh.

They'll probably give us DL Cs, you know, or something to add more endings to the game or some-such.

There are many different endings, dependent on how many war assets you're able to bring to the table. Your decisions do have weight, because one choice will secure war assets while another may lock them out. Pick the wrong choice and you could be out of nearly a thousand EMS, for example.

And how are they going to make any DL Cs? Unless they place them before the end of the game's main story, they have no protagonist.

Well, there ARE some differences. If you go the destroy route, then all synthetics will die (or, if you were unprepared, everyone will die. If you go the control route, then nobody really dies except for Shepard, but the cycle presumably continues. If you go the synthesis route, then everybody gets to live except for Shepard, but they're all partly synthetic now. So maybe it doesn't change what is shown at the ending much, but it does at least change the story for the player personally, and it would certainly change what happened next, even if it's not explicitly shown.

The worst part is that there's no possible way to have a Mass Effect 4 now... :(

Bioware has stated that Mass Effect 3 is the end of the Commander Shepard story arc. If there will be a Mass Effect 4, it will focus on another person.

You make a fair point, but it doesn't match the spirit of the trope. The idea of the trope is that the "maintenance" works when it intellectually shouldn't work, or because it's an indicator of just how awesome the smacker is. As it is, even if it does fit "Person hits instead of doing something technical," the end result is a logical progression from the event: Damaging leads to non-functionality.

I think s/he says "That was for Thessia"? Don't quote me on it, though.

Actually, I saw it on Youtube No gunship this time.

I'm not sure if it would count because, despite terming it an "empire," we don't actually know how the Protheans were governed, or how they governed the other species. Did they have elected leaders? Hereditary leaders? Were they in a communistic state that did not have a structured hierarchy within their own society?

Though it's quite clear that they were a militaristic and expansionist people, Javik also says that they would incorporate the conquered peoples into their empire and they would eventually be called Prothean as well. Does that mean they achieved full equality? Citizenship? Could they have served in the Prothean Senate (If there was such a thing)?

I don't think we have enough data to infer the trope.

The point I'm trying to make, that I'm wondering if we have a trope for, is that by forcing the other races to conform the Protheans did most of the Reapers' work for them. Free people fight better than slaves.

Whether or not the Protheans fit the description of the Evil Empire doesn't matter, this doesn't fit the trope. The trope is about two governments at war with each other, and the Protheans aren't going to war against the Council.

On a side note, did the final alliance against the Reapers have an official name, or did they just go to war under the Council's banner?

I'm TRYING to find a trope, if it exists, for: "Free men are better fighters than slaves."

And as for that side note, I don't think it had a name, and I REALLY hope that the Council had nothing to do with it, given how much effort they put into PREVENTING it.

The reason I took it out is that it doesn't match No Good Deed Goes Unpunished, because that trope is "I do something good, and something bad happens because of it." The council being unhelpful has nothing to do with the initial warnings, it's not "punishment." For it to be the trope there would need to be the impression (Implicit or explicit) that the situation would be better if Shepard had not done the good thing in the first place.

It's something. Ungrateful Bastard maybe?

Yeah, I think that would be the appropriate trope for what you're trying to say.

Well, JBK 405 reason for deleting the examples was that they could be hand waved, which is pretty much part of the definition of Inferred Holocaust: An event which because of the lack of hand waving implies a negative outcome.

Simplest example of Inferred Holocaust: Laser shoots a giant hole in a city, but because the story doesn't mention that the city was evacuated beforehand, it implies there were still people in that city who died.

Mass Effect spends previous 2 games mentioning races of galaxy haven't bothered researching other means of galactic travel. No Hand Wave is included in 3 to deal with this, implies negative outcome. See a ship get caught up in powerful energy wave, see it crash. Don't see the effects on any other ships to suggest otherwise, implies a negative outcome.

If JBK 405 has another reason they think those examples don't fit, then I'm happy to listen. But as is, the reason for deleting makes little sense.

I agree that it's Inferred Holocaust. Since the ending raises more questions than it answers (SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE!), all we have to go by are the things we know to be true. We know for a FACT that destroying a mass relay causes a supernova-like explosion. We know for a FACT that FTL travel takes significantly longer than a mass relay jump and we know for a FACT that ships need to discharge every now and then. People are drawing the Inferred Holocaust conclusion not because they're so angry that they're grasping at anything to "prove" that the ending sucks, but because of what previous games have told us to be true. The ending in no way explains why anything would happen otherwise.

I agree that it's Inferred Holocaust. Since the ending raises more questions than it answers (SPECULATION FOR EVERYONE!), all we have to go by are the things we know to be true. We know for a FACT that destroying a mass relay causes a supernova-like explosion. We know for a FACT that FTL travel takes significantly longer than a mass relay jump and we know for a FACT that ships need to discharge every now and then. People are drawing the Inferred Holocaust conclusion not because they're so angry that they're grasping at anything to "prove" that the ending sucks, but because of what previous games have told us to be true. The ending in no way explains why anything would happen otherwise.

Well, don't actually think we can include "mass relay exploding" instance, because there is in fact a difference between smashing a meteor into a mass relay and using it to shoot out an energy pulse.

And again, if JBK 405 could provide an explanation like that I would understand.

We only know that slamming a big rock into a mass relay causes it to go supernova. Who knows what the heck the energy stream is doing while it is breaking the relays. That just makes what it is doing speculation nothing more. We could speculate all the energy is being channeled to ensure the effect travels to the various relays like is shown in the ending in the first place.

As for other ships we only see the Normany either traveling from a ME Relay or trying to use FTL outrun a blast wave they are near. It is never made clear what other ships are doing at the time. You could guess because the Normandy was actively trying to outrun the energy it got damaged. We could all speculate that the various fleets that were just floating around space are fine and capable of travel in the system they are in.

Also it is also feasible the various colonies that are now stranded become self sufficient out of necessity and do not starve or die off. Some might die but quite a few might survive on their own.

I agree the Citadel and most folks on it are pretty screwed. The game implied the reapers swooped in and seized it. Given how they handle population centers I would say it is a safe bet they either killed or converted anyone who didn't escape before they took the station.

To make it even more difficult to say one way or another consider all three endings. Destroy the reapers not only wipes out all the AI and VI but heavily damages our current tech. Control seizes the reapers Shepard is calling the shots now. Or Fusion ending everyone is fused with the machines in some form. I would say the only one that can qualify for true Inferred holocaust is the destroy ending. It would knock the galactic society back technologically speaking quite a bit. They may survive but they will be less advanced then before and that would be utterly devastating.

Control Shepard has control of the most avanced AI and tech ever to grace the galaxy. What is to stop him from trying to use them to fix the galaxy?

Then we have the Fusion ending. AI and Biologicals are all fused in harmony. Dunno about you but despite the lack of relays being fused with an AI has to come with some serious advantages

I would honestly just leave Inferred Holocaust off the main page until we get the supposed clarification or adjusted ending that is supposedly coming.

That's the thing though: For all we know Mass Relay explosion = huge explosion that wipes out the entire start system it's located in because that's what the previous game told us would happen. This means that although people are absolutely right when they point out that difference, it's still speculation because the ending makes no effort to clarify what even happens in those different situations or even why it would be any different.

That's why the ending ultimately fails: It doesn't answer anything and we're forced to base all of our conclusions on what has happened previously.

That's the thing though: For all we know Mass Relay explosion = huge explosion that wipes out the entire start system it's located in because that's what the previous game told us would happen. This means that although people are absolutely right when they point out that difference, it's still speculation because the ending makes no effort to clarify what even happens in those different situations or even why it would be any different.

That's why the ending ultimately fails: It doesn't answer anything and we're forced to base all of our conclusions on what has happened previously.

The ending does indeed fail to do anything to fill in the plot holes it has left behind. It is better to leave Inferred holocaust off until we get that clarification that was recently announced as being in the works. At best it could be a perfectly valid entry on the WMG page.

Also, there's something else to consider: for who accept that the mass relays didn't wipe everything out but, they aren't used for inter-system travel, mostly inter-cluster. A single relay links to dozens of systems, so while some more remote colonies may die out from lack of trade, many others will still be able to keep in touch. FTL still works just fine.

If there's reasonable doubt, I say leave it off.

FTL may work just fine, but not for the type of travel we're talking about. Especially since The Reapers destroyed a large number of fuel depots, and the galaxy relied upon the Mass Relays for FTL communication anyways. There's no possible way for anyone to get news or word to everyone else. It would be like if all transportation except walking was taken away on Earth. Traveling from the US to Japan goes from being a few hours' flight to a dangerous journey that you may never return from. Then there's the fact that several homeworlds were either outright seized (Thessia), laid to waste (Earth and Palaven), or evacuated (Dakuuna). Those planets are cut off from most of the resources that they've relied upon (such as omni-gel and medi-gel).

I can agree with leaving Inferred Holocaust off the page until we hear more from Bioware, but as for "reasonable doubt"?

If this ending doesn't count, then I don't see how anything else does.

All of the negative consequences of destroying the relays that were mentioned here are what I believe probably did happen (Except for causing large-scale physical destruction, since I personally subscribe to the "it's different than in Arrival, it probably didn't blow up the same way" school of thought). I am in no way trying to say that this didn't involve large amounts of death and destruction, or that destroying the network didn't destroy galactic civilization as we know it.

What I am saying is that we can't extrapolate specific damages based of of limited data. Yes, we saw Normandy crash, but for all we know that was because it was going at FTL at that moment, and all ships which weren't are perfectly fine. Maybe it's because it was so close to the source the Citadel and everything outside the system was fine. Guessing and hypothesizing is all well and good for the discussing, WMG, and Headscratchers pages, but on the main page we have to work with what data we have. We didn't see thousands of ships crashing or exploding relays destroying planets, so we can't infer that this event caused lots of actual physical damage. All we can infer is that communication and travel is now hamstrung, whicb certainly will result in millions or billions of deaths, but not the same way as "they were blown up."

I mean the entry you deleted did say communication and travel were hamstrung, it mentioned nothing about destruction and death. Is there a way to reword it that would make that clearer?

And just to be clear, thousands of ships crashing wouldn't be an Inferred Holocaust, at least not for the ships. edit: wait. actually, wouldn't that be an Inferred Holocaust for all ships traveling FTL at the time then? would adding that detail make it acceptable for you?

Well, no, because again we don't know that that's what caused the crash. It could have been a proximity thing, or because of other specific circumstances (The Normandy is the only known ship that can actually travel using only mass effect fields, maybe that's it and every ship without a Tantalus drive is fine. I'm not saying that is what caused the crash, just that without some other information we're working in the dark.).

How about:

All three of the endings result in the destrucion of the Mass Relay network, rendering travel and even communication between star clusters impossible according to Codex entries on long-distance FTL travel due to fuel requirements and the absence of discharge points.

It's factually accurate according to what we know, leaves the reader to come to their own conclusions regarding starvation, economic collapse, etc.

Thoughts?

JBK. Pretty much every ship uses mass effect fields. for gravity and ftl and stuff.

Also, have we forgotten all the ships still stuck in the sol system, all the troops on earth. Even if half of them are dead, that still leaves millions, if not billions of people, krogan, etc, with no way to feed themselves. Earth is pretty busted up, and i would not think that there is much farmable land, given it used to have 11 billion people. Some, if not thousands to millions would die. Or kill each other, still dying.

Yes, but only the Normandy can actually move using only mass effect fields. That's the essence of its stealth drive; other ships lower their mass so that "normal" propulsion moves them more easily than if they still had a large mass, but Normandy can affect its mass so much that it can move without any propulsion at all.

But not a lot, without its thrusters it can't exactly move fast. More akin to drifting. As far as i can tell though, the..whatever, energy wave, hitting Joker is both the energy from the crucible/citadel/whatever as well as the collapsing of the relay's "Mass corridor". How exactly it does hit him when travel is meant to be near instantaneous, is still a mystery.

Honestly, the reactions of the asari could go either way. You could buy that she really is the potential daughter-in-law, or she could simply be humoring her. The way I see it, the asari isn't her daughter-in-law, and is just trying to find a way to deal with her politely. That sort of thing is incredibly awkward and painful. I'm mostly basing this off her first conversation.

Jerks and bad guys get priority.

After closely watching my recording of the endings versus my recording of Arrival, in the endings it appears that all of the stored energy gets blasted down the line to the other relay because you can see the glowy bit disappear before the relay breaks apart. In Arrival, that energy glow is released and then explodes.

With a bit of extrapolation, I would hypothesize that the energy, upon arriving at the other relay, causes the selected energy burst to be emitted by the relay, then the stored energy in the relay to be blasted to the next relay. So the explosions you see on the starmap are just the energy burst, not the relays exploding, and with all their energy going into creating the energy burst they don't have enough to blow up the star systems they're in, or even enough to maintain their own integrity and so fall apart.

The problem is the cutscene shows the explosions over the galaxy. If they can be viewed in that style, the kaboom should be rather large. Plus they're meant to be some of the most powerful mass effect drives in the galaxy.

Oooh, that e-mail made me so mad. I was angry enough at first, but then that e-mail...

That renegade interrupt later made it all worth it, though. Better interrupt than punching al-Jilani, better than any other interrupt.

THIS IS FOR THANE, YOU SON OF A B****.

Yeah that was pretty rage-inducing. I even tried to shoot the gunship with my BFG. Kai Leng struck me as a lazy fighter. He barely does anything by himself without running off. He doesn't even have a damn gun.

The asari councilor doesn't control the asari government. Just represent them in Citadel politics.

She still knew that there was something on her homeworld that was worth flying past an "ancient race of sentient starships" to get.

"I feel I was denied... CRITICAL... NEED TO KNOW... INFORMATION."

While I agree with most of this complaint, the fact that the Asari would have known about the Reapers is not a given. We have no idea what information was stored in the beacon, it's possible it made no mention of the Reapers at all (They were a galaxy-spanning information net, and the warning from Ilos was only sent out after that net had been shattered by the invasion. It's possible this beacon never received the warning that nearly fried Shepard's brain) and they might also have never been able to activate the VI, either (Liara theorizes that it's Shepard having the cipher that makes it think you're a Prothean and activate the program).

Now, don't get me wrong, they're breaking their own laws by withholding this technology, and since the beacon was apparently in use by the Protheans long enough for the VI to be installed it probably had some information on the Reapers, but this "They knew everything!" reaction some people are giving isn't necessarily the truth.

Now that is a valid complaint. Shepard's misunderstanding of the beacons is understandable if the warning was a last-ditch effort made with limited resources, and the beacons had never been designed to interface with a non-Prothean individual, but if they've spent time with the younger races, are aware that we don't have their memory-reading abilities or ability to understand their telepathic messages, then they really should have put more thought into how they'd get the message across to us. When Liara is preparing her own time capsule she makes a point of explaining that she is including every translation program that she can find; it might not work (Maybe the next cycle will communicate through some previously unimagined process) but at least she's trying.

Vendetta(that's the name of the Prothean VI on the beacon stored in the Temple of Athame) knew everything. Period. Dot. "This cycle has entered the extinction phase." Hell, Vendetta can sense indoctrination. Thousands of years of preparation wasted because the asari wanted to look awesome.

Yes, Vendetta knew everything. However, I highly doubt Vendetta was the only information stored in that beacon, and as I said, Liara and Javik both believe that the only reason Vendetta activated was because it sensed a Prothean, either cypher-you or Javik himself. Since the other beacons we've encountered activated regardless of whether or not they sense a Prothean, logic stands to reason that this one was a high-security beacon, or had a classified section.

Nothing we saw indicated that the Asari government had ever spoken to Vendetta or gained full access to the information on the beacon.

The asari knew about the artifacts necessary to activate the beacon - all in the temple, and still attended by scientists. They had a lot more than they were telling, and went to extreme lengths to keep it secret. They have the most advanced technology in the galaxy due to that beacon, and wrote the laws making it illegal for Prothean technology to be kept secret - because they didn't want anyone else doing what they did; secretly using Prothean technology to look inherently awesome.

Yes, and I agreed that that was bad. However, none of that in any way indicates that they managed to activate this info since, as I've now said twice, both Liara and Javik talk about how it's probably the presence of a Prothean (Or Prothean-lite) that gained access to this information.

Then we're still stuck with either the asari or the Protheans being literally Too Dumb to Live. Either the Protheans didn't tell the asari what they were being uplifted to fight, or the Protheans did tell the asari and their Illuminati decided conquering the galaxy was more important. Given that the asari government were the ones who lied about the beacon, I'm inclined to believe they were the dumb sociopaths.

But speaking with Javik set the precedent that The P Rotheans simply were that stupid. When he gets upset that this cycle wasn't more prepared, after learning that Shepard saw the beacon, Shepard explains that they couldn't understand the messages because they were meant for Prothean communication. Javik then says, "then communication is still primitive in this cycle." That implies that the Protheans actually WERE idiots. It would be different if they had no way of communicating, but we're also told that they deliberately fabricated and entire religion and taught it to the asari just to experiment on and uplift them. And it's not like the Protheans didn't know how to communicate in other forms, or have V Is that could analyze communications to speak with you. Vigil, on Ilos, was able to do that. So yeah, I'm more inclined to believe that this one one big Idiot Ball that the Protheans held onto with their dying breath, only for the asari to pick it up. That's the reason I hate Javik's retcons: it turns the entire backstory of the Mass Effect universe into one big Idiot Plot.

It's a PLANET, the whole place isn't necessarily like that.

It actually sort of makes sense, right? I mean, if you have no problem with them being portrayed as Jews living under the Diaspora in the first game and Roma in the second game, then why not give them a home that is reminiscient of the homeland of the forcibly relocated Native Americans? It reinforces the idea that the Quarians aren't supposed to be any specific exiled population but representative of exiled populations in general, so they use a number of different references that evoke that sort of response in their audience.

Or, if it makes you feel better, the planet is a desert. Israel is desert-ish. The desert locals look like the American Southwest because the Quarian sun is red rather than yellow, so it's tinted different. Boom, now they just got backed Zion, you're problem's resolved.

Well, a) There's more changes than just the color, and b) this still looks like natter. Gainax Ending is an ending that is incomprehensible, fan reaction or meta issues shouldn't come into the description.

Well thanks to that shitty ending, we'll never know, will we!? It's all speculation at this point, both the implied holocost and the anti implied holocost ness. That's pretty much half the reason people hate the ending so much.

Moments Of Awesome apply only to the work, not the creators.

will take care of war is hell, seems easy enough.

Here's the thing I protest: we've got two earth quotes. And I personally believe that sacrifice is one of the major themes of the game. Even if you make the choices that get as many people through alive as is humanly possible, there are still deaths galore. If you don't sacrifice faceless masses, you sacrifice friends. If things go badly, you sacrifice both. Hell, even the endings qualify. And the saving everyone quote encapsulates that neatly enough I feel it deserves a spot.

Here's a thought: Big Ben's quote covers the same bases as Take Earth Back (another reason I don't want both on the top). How about if we move that to the caption, and make Shepard's quote the top? That way we also fulfill the tradition of top quote being Shepard, though not one of his uplifting speeches. But considering how depressing the game can be, maybe that's appropriate too.

umm, acceptable. But please expand Shepard's quote to the full line, not just the psuedo-quote.

Mkay, I can handle that.

I believe so, yes. I think having her keep the data results in her showing up, but I'm not sure. Just talking from personal experience.

I had her erase it and she still showed up. I wouldn't know what the difference is, but she's around if you didn't get her killed in the suicide mission in one way or another.

It's probably just she got her information somewhere else. No big deal, then.

Thanks for the info - I'll have her keep the data for the extra paragon points then :D

Confirmed: it does not have any effect. If you told her to delete it, she says she figured out the contents anyhow. However, if she never had the greybox at all (that is, you didn't do the loyalty mission), she'll be written out after the sidequest.

Yup. You have to have dinner with her in ME 2. Though that doesn't stop you from romancing anyone else AND also means you don't have to go up to your cabin after every mission to feed the damn fish, so I don't know why you wouldn't do it.

I heard somewhere that one of the devs said that dinner with Kelly is just dinner with Kelly, so you aren't actually cheating on your LI if you do it.

Alrighty then. Thanks, guys; I'll have to keep that in mind for my master playthrough.

All three games in a row, Insanity difficulty. Going to be quite the project.

1. Spoilers. 2. My God...

1. Spoilers. 2. My God...

That'd be like Batarian slavers giving lessons on civility.

Redeeming as is you thought Overlord was bad? Or did you just mean "One of the best things of that DLC"?

Anyway, I'm sure Mansell will do fine. Jack Wall will be missed and his stuff will still kinda show up in 3, but don't forget that he wasn't the only composer involved with both games. He had a lot of people involved, too.

Wall never did any of the music for the DLC's. That was all Christopher Lennertz.

Besides, having heard the first track from the leaked beta of Mansell's music, I'd say he's more than capable of picking up the baton. Wall made the choice to leave the franchise - he wasn't forced out.

I say we wait. Things could change. This beta was never meant to be public.

I agree. Let's wait until the actual demo comes out.

I agree. Let's wait until the actual demo comes out.

I think this "XCOM" pretender is about to be overshadowed to the point of no longer existing. The fact that both Max Payne 3's and Mass Effect 3's action is shooter based, doesn't help matters. Ironically those behind this new XCOM game probably wanted to avoid the big shooter sequels near Christmas and opted for spring instead. Max Payne/Mass Effect have both been delayed so they've likely ended up alongside them by accident lol.

Isn't that the reason Memetic Mutation is on the YMMV in the first place? I think sitting down and analysing a meme's "qualifications" to go on a subjective trope page is a bit silly. Half the meme's on Mass Effect 2 I'd never heard of, still pretty fun looking them up though and isn't that the point of the site, just a bit of fun?

YMMV exists mostly to stop in-fighting about subjective things, but it's not a free-for-all to add any trope and list any example because, well, YMMV.

Most of the revert edits I did were about things that really didn't stay memes. A quick way to judge is to run it through Google and see what pops out. *Most* of the ME 2 memes I have seen all over the place—You Tube, Reddit, the BSN, urbanDictionary, and so on—but none of the ME 3 memes seemed to last.

Fair enough that makes sense, the YMMV on meme's would probably end up flooded with in-jokes before the game's even released. I also keep forgetting (due to the delay) that Mass Effect 3's still a long ways off and there really isn't nearly enough real game info at all.

Forgot to add that the characters in co-op are customizable with their guns and races instead of being any established characters.

ohhhh... cant wait. I have waited for like two games to play as a krogan! (ok, it might not be that many for another video game developer, but hey, this is Bioware we are talking about here. their games are bigger than most dictionaries.)

If playing a half decent multiplayer for a few hours means I don't have to waste my time scanning planets, I think I'd consider it a lesser evil. Having the multiplayer allow players to dodge more tedious methods of getting prepared might make players give it a shot.

Still I feel the only reason that "Galaxy at War" exists is Bioware basically caved to EA on adding a multiplayer aspect.

I dunno. Seems kind of generic. I suggest waiting for more details / a better quote before adding it in.

Okay, more a case of 'the only one I can remember'. But is there a decent one we can use?

The standing one is fine until we get a memorable one.

Sadly the devs have confessed that might not be on option.

what?! NOOOO!!!!!

There's no confirmation.

http://social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/103/index/5438483&lf=8

This post at the BSN hints that there's more than one planet being struck.

Or maybe just saying that attacking Earth First is not the stupid thing to do

Do not spam the pages, Didact. Do not hijack the voice of the wiki.

if you go to the galaxy map in ME 2 you can see that the local cluster is the nearest to the cluster arival takes place in. After Earth the Reaper will most likely go to Tuchanka(thats why we already have seen so much from the mission with mordin, its prob. the first after the prolog on earth) and then directly to the citadel(however they could use the Charon Portal to basically attak everywhere)

Something tells me that the Council will find some way to shut down the Charon relay as a means of trying to contain the bulk of the Reapers to Sol...

I'm quite aware. I'm sort of with the people, however, that are scratching their heads at such a small number. Obviously humanity is being harvested, but due to Rule of Drama I'm just gonna say "millions" (since it's totally and completely not a lie!!). I'll find a way to shove in the real numbers in the examples.

EDIT: Ha, Sandor, I wasn't aware you were the one who added the "hundreds of millions" thing—still we don't know he's only talking about London, nor can we fathom how quickly or how slowly they're attacking other locations.

The phrasing of the trailer is ambiguous. After saying the casualties, he'll say "Reports are coming in from other major cities it's a well coordinated attack". That could mean several things. "Reports are coming in from other major cities: it's a well coordinated attack" would imply they're reporting the coordination. "Reports are coming in from in from other major cities—it's a well coordinated attack" would imply that their coordination is the narrator's own observation.

You're right that it's based on assumptions, but it really seems like he's solely refering to London when talking about casulties.

Two million the fist day seven by... [blah blah blah]

We're getting reports from other cities.

Keep in mind that Earth had double the population it has now in the Mass Effect-verse. There's no telling how many people actually live in London about that time.

I think it's better to be vague and still accurate then to make a guess and be wrong later. We can always add in more information as we find out, but we might not remember to take out false information.

Humanity's probably holding its own against the Reaper fleet.

I mean, there WERE significant advances in shield and weapon technology after Humanity, the Turians, and the rest of the Citadel races salvaged and studied Sovereign.

If you want to add it, by all means, go for it. You don't need our permission.

If you want to add it, by all means, go for it. You don't need our permission.

Thanks for providing that link!

As for your question, it will mostly depend on what, exactly, the consequences are and what Bio Ware means by "the worst possible time." We could be looking at an epic What the Hell, Hero?, You Lose at Zero Trust, or even Laser-Guided Karma or Tragic Mistake.

Thanks for providing that link!

As for your question, it will mostly depend on what, exactly, the consequences are and what Bio Ware means by "the worst possible time." We could be looking at an epic What the Hell, Hero?, You Lose at Zero Trust, or even Laser-Guided Karma or Tragic Mistake.

Actually is says "at the worst possible time: the end of the galaxy" (or something to that effect), implying that the general situation is bad.

It doesn't matter. YMMV is not decided by whether there's consensus on how true it is. Certain tropes are more debatable than others, so they have a YMMV banner, which means they are supposed to only go upon the YMMV tab in work pages.

Well, yes...at the time of your death. However, the Citadel, while respectful of your heroism, also started a slander campaign against your claims of the Reapers attacking. So everyone thinks you're a lunatic. Besides that, you die for two years, then resurface in a terrorist organization. People are suspicious.

While you are feared, you're publicity is actually quite bad.

The Paragon/Renegade ending at ME 1 matters not because it changes Shepard's publicity, but humanity's.

Big Ben is a very common name for the Tower itself. Leave it alone, Big Ben is fine. The article notes once that the name is indeed, the Westminster clock tower, and the bell is Big Ben. The rest can be left alone.

I changed it back. I doubt that's gonna stop Sephal, though.

I say leave it as Big Ben. It may be the wrong name, but say Big Ben, and everyone will know what you're talking about whereas you'll have additional explaining to do if you say Westminster clock tower.

I say leave it as Big Ben. It may be the wrong name, but say Big Ben, and everyone will know what you're talking about whereas you'll have additional explaining to do if you say Westminster clock tower.

As Sephal did—even when s/he changed it, s/he had to leave an explanation about what she was talking about.

A month-old page for a game that won't come out for a year and we already have an Edit War. Sigh. This is going to be an exceedingly exasperating page.

I'm not sure if it would help the edit war, but Bioware has essentially said that Big Ben is indeed James Sanders, a confirmed recruitable character.

I'm quite sure they explicitly said it was not him.

I agree. Plus, the Bioware social forumites love to complain.

That and fan reactions are YMMV material.

That and fan reactions are YMMV material.

I agree with the above sentiments, though in reaction to Viking: if fan reactions are YMMV, with the connotation that the YMMV aspect means that there is no Broken Base issue, wouldn't that mean that there could never be a Broken Base, what with YMMV?

Broken Base is considered a YMMV trope because the fanbase is polarized on their opinions concerning a work.

Broken Base is considered a YMMV trope because the fanbase is polarized on their opinions concerning a work.

1. Apocalypse How is not rumor. The trailer and the official product description state that Earth will be under attack. The trailer says, in no uncertain terms, that at least seven million people will be killed. That's at least Class 0 and we're told that the goal is to stop a Class 6.

2. Get rid of the word "primary" and we're golden.

3. A little rewording and we're golden.

It's one thing to take into consideration Never Trust a Trailer, but it's another thing to ignore the trailer completely.

We have that trope on the page already. Look carefully.

Thank you.

Sean Bean

FFFFFFFFFF

It really isn't. Like coming from a Londoner, the guy in the trailer is one, Sean Bean isn't.

my mistake, then. Seemed everyone on the forums was convinced it was.

If that's not Sean Bean, it's an actor with an extraordinary Sean Bean impression in his back pocket.

I can't tell, honestly. I wouldn't put it past Bio Ware to hire Sean Bean, though, and I'd be happy if it were him. But we don't know, as of right now.

Oh well, we will find out in due time anyway. In the meantime, all I can do is pray that he is a recruitable character