Discussion VideoGame / MarvelVsCapcom3

Frank West: It doesn't matter how trained someone is. Iron weight describes people who are tougher than the average person and is able to perform feats of strength or skill that are above and beyond what most people could do. Regardless of how you look at it, Frank West is outright fighting the characters in this game. Unlike an "Action Survivor" like Ellen Ripley, he isn't merely running away or avoiding the danger, but facing it head on and doing a pretty effective job at it. That's the difference.

Tron: Her machine can breathe fire, throw boulders, drill people into ground, shoot projectiles, leap Hulk-like distances, and is shown in the animated cutscenes to be able to match Super Skrull (who is as strong as The Thing) in brute strength. If Iron Man's Powered Armor counts as a Type 3 while Tony has no notable superpowers to speak of, there's no logical reason Tron shouldn't be at least a Type 2.

Hsien-ko: Type 3 isn't about the scope of power. Type 3 is about the number of abilities. In fact, we're discussing this in the TRS thread right now and I pointed out that Spider-man has no business being listed as a Type 2 when he has an entire list of abilities that is just as lengthy as Superman's. The Super Weight thread explicitly says that it's not about scale, but the power set. Hsien-ko's set of powers (shapeshifting, super-stamina, air-walking, teleportation, weapon-generation, armor powerup, sonic-emission, hand-blades, etc.) should be noted on their own, not when compared to individuals like Hulk and Ghost Rider.

Sentinel: All robots are not created equal. Also, we're not supposed to be considering what power scale the characters are in their home series; remember, only the stuff we SEE in Mv C 3 is supposed to be listed. Again, if Iron Man (who is essentially a guy in a mechanical suit) counts as Type 3), then we have Sentinel, who has energy projection, enhanced strength, flight, super senses, extendable limbs, enhanced durability (compared to humans), invulnerability (Hard Drive is the most invulnerable move in the game), a force field, and the "ability" to summon robot minions from seemingly nowhere. Again, Type 3.

Edited by KingZeal

Frank West: Alright, I see your point. If it's any consolation, I originally wrote him at Type 1 (you can check the page history to see who disagreed with me on that).

Tron: In noticed in the Super Weight TRS discussion that Cider suggested making a separate sub-scale for machines and weapons, since the pilots driving/wielding them are generally human. If that's done, stick her and Tony Stark under Type 0 and be done with it. On that note, I think you might be a bit confused: Nowhere does it say we should be going with the in-universe power level of the roster. It was written with the roster's own franchise/series' in mind. If we went with MvC universe/Earth-96169 for the examples, Phoenix Wright would be a Type 1 on account of his super-human jumping ability while doing a super jump and being able to survive hits from the Hulk. So her clashing near-equally with Super-Skrull in a cutscene is irrelevant. Again, I'd like to ask for some of her feats from a Mega Man Legends fan that allow her to be placed under Type 2.

Hsien-ko: It seems that the idea of classifying Type 3 by the character's amount of powers is being supported completely and only by you (the person who launched the trope is even arguing with you on that). Until you can get that sorted out (aka find more people who agree with you), that's not a valid point. On that note, I don't understand why someone with a long set of Type 2-level powers should suddenly qualify for type 3 because they have many of them. Magneto can only control magnetism, but the means in which he applies this is staggering. Molecule Man's most basic power is molecular manipulation and it puts him at the level of celestials and galactic entities. Where would you categorize these?

Sentinel: Where did you get the idea that we're not dealing with the roster's home series? If we did that, the entire cast should be placed at type 4 simply because they're potentially capable of defeating Galactus. If the scale dealt with what happens in MvC, Magneto would be lower since he, for some reason, didn't immobilize Arthur immediately by crushing his armor (which could've been done without killing him I'll add). Where in the game is it indicated that Morrigan sits at Type 4? She doesn't show any such feats in-game, but her canon power-level in Dark Stalkers easily puts her at Type 4. Since I still have no reason to believe this particular Sentinel as any stronger than a normal version, I'll leave him at Type 2.

M.O.D.O.K: No one has actually argued about this placement yet, but it's been bothering me. I wasn't sure where to put him since he's clearly above human and is a master strategist. However his official Marvel Power Grid says he's a level 1 in every physical scale (Strength, Speed, Endurance and Fighting Ability), making him so frail that a healthy adult male could beat him horribly. I'm also not quite aware how powerful his psionic powers are; I just assumed they were on a similar level to a gun. If there are any comic fans that could help with this, that'd be great.

Trish: On the grounds that all demons in the Devil May Cry world possess superhuman strength, speed, reflexes, endurance, light Healing Factor, accuracy, balance and in her case expert knowledge of a variety of guns, swords and vehicles, she could qualify for Type 3 (despite where she's currently being placed on the Super Weight page).

Edited by Alucard

Tron: I was going by the rules of the character page. Since this essentially compiling a list of character attributes, I figured it still applied here. And the fact of the matter is, we can't include game mechanics in our consideration here, because most of it is inconsistent. (Hell, even the reporters in the Daily Bugle stage can double jump). Super jumping, blocking (which creates a Force Field), double-jumping or other things of that nature don't count any more than Walk It Off would make the protagonist of any Modern Warfare game a Type 2. I also don't agree that matching strength with Super Skrull was irrelevant; the cutscenes don't follow the same rules as the game mechanics (for example, Magneto owns X-23, MODOK and Arthur in about two seconds).

Hsien-ko: The way you say that makes it seem as though people are opposed to the idea, which they are not. As for your other questions: Magneto's powers are ill-defined enough to be considered a Type 3. "Controls magnetism" is no more a good description of superpowers than "controls the weather" or "was born a kryptonian" or "is a robot". It tells you where their powers come from, but not what they do. The reason why Magneto's superpowers are so susceptible to Power Creep, Power Seep is because "controls magnetism" is no less vague than "controls matter", especially since electromagnetism is one of the four fundamental components of all matter. The exact same thing is true of Molecule Man.

Sentinel: No. The list explicitly says that defeating someone who is in a higher tier than you does not make you higher than them. However, I flat out agree that Morrigan has no business being listed as a Type 4 simply because that isn't a trait of her character within this game (Morrigan of the Darkstalkers verse is not ALWAYS a Type 4, either—some of her power there is sealed at times). Galactus is still a Type 4 because we see him manipulating matter. Dormammu is still a Type 4 because we see him manipulating reality in his Level 3 super. Shuma-Gorath and Phoenix count, but because of Informed Ability (most of Phoenix's quotes are her bragging about being a Cosmic Being, for example).

MODOK: I would say he's Level 3. Energy blasts, telekinesis, force-field, flight, concealed weaponry. Again, if we're allowing technology to define Iron Man, it applies to anyone using tech.

Trish: I agree.

Edited by KingZeal

Tron: If you want to include cut-scenes, fine. Gustaff is powerful, but as you mentioned "defeating someone (or in her case, matching) who is in a higher tier than you does not make you higher than them." In a stand-up fight, Super-Skrull (were he not being dogged by Ammy and Joe) would've most likely Speed Blizted*

her or just swung his second arm in an arc she couldn't catch. Furthermore, I haven't seen anything in her arsenal that could ever hurt him. The unfortunate fact is that, in line with the atmosphere of the Legends games, most of what she does isn't designed to be all that serious (no military would design a Mini-Mecha that lacks a roof). All this in mind, she could probably give Spider-Man or Wolverine a run for their money, and Gustaff is certainly above human. So I'm willing to agree with you that she's a 2 (in Gustaff).

Hsien-ko: It doesn't matter how much opposition or favor the notion gets, if the doubt is there or the issue hasn't been closed (which based on the on-going TRS discussion on this, isn't close to happening) then it fails to be a valid point. Since I'd argue that every one of her abilities could be called "low-tier" in supernatural terms, I have no reason to believe she's a 3.

Sentinel: Again, where did you get the idea we're not dealing the the character's home series? That's the way it was written. As for this particular Sentinel, he displays all the basic abilities of his comic-counterpart. Basic Sentinel models haven't shown any feats that could place them at Class 3.

M.O.D.O.K: His tech doesn't compare to Tony's tech. The Iron Man armor gives him flight speed up to mach 3, energy shields (which cover his entire body, unlike M.O.D.O.K) and several energy beams and missiles. Not to mention how much durability and strength the armor affords him (which places him higher than M.O.D.O.K in multiple fields already). Tony is easily the strongest tech-themed character in the game; the other tech-themed warriors don't achieve Class 3 just because he's a Flying Brick. The official Marvel Power Grid even places them on a similar intelligence-level, meaning M.O.D.O.K doesn't even have that going for him. Still, in light of the weapons you've mentioned, I'd give him a 2 at least.

Morrigan: Like I said, we should be dealing with home series power levels, since the abilities we see in this game are horridly inconsistent and generally unreliable (for instance, why should Dormammu ever miss when he's using Dark Dimension? By all means, if it's something he wills to happen, it should happen). If Phoenix should be called a world-destroying entity based on her own words alone, Morrigan should receive the same. She never brags about it, but she's canonically beaten stronger things than Galactus, and apparently was a Class above them all too. I'm not sure if she's ever shown her true power in-story, but the small glimpses of it have overwhelmed everything that opposed it (this includes A-Class demons and beings comparable to Gods).

I'm starting to think that until this trope gets resolved in TRS, this issue isn't worth touching right now. It might be best to cut it from the page temporarily.

Edited by Alucard

Tron: I didn't say anything about Tron defeating Skrull. I said that she was able to match him for strength. Two totally different things. If Batman were fighting Colossus of the X-Men and they became locked in a test of strength (like Tron is with Skrull), it would mean Batman wasn't human. Same thing here. It doesn't matter what Tron did in Legends, because here, her Gustaff mech unquestionably has capabilities beyond those of humans.

Hsien-ko: I have no idea what you're saying here. If you've been following the thread, people have actually been making the argument that Type 2 and Type 3 should probably be merged because it's essentially The Same But More. Hsien-ko is a type 3. It doesn't matter how "low tier" her abilities are.

Sentinel: Again, this is a character trope. And the character page expressly says that we're not supposed to qualify characters except for what they demonstrate within this game. And again, I just gave an entire list of superpowers that Sentinel has in this game. Remember, Type 3 is about the number of abilities, not how powerful those abilities are. And hell, that objection still makes no sense because there is an entire list of Sentinel models in Marvel canon—all of which have varying scales of power, durability, and abilities. But again, canon has no point here unless explicitly mentioned in-game.

MODOK: Again, Type 3 is about the number of abilities, not how powerful the abilities are.

Morrigan: Again, even in her home series, Morrigan is not ALWAYS a Type 4. When does this game take place? Before she was made whole again? After? She doesn't demonstrate any type of reality-altering power (which is what qualifies as a Type 4, not power LEVEL). Regardless of how his powers work or how they miss, Dormammu is shown to manipulate reality. Phoenix says time and time again that she is a fundamental force of the universe ("I am what is, what was, what will be!"). Again, it does not matter what a character did in canon, and it does not matter who they defeated. Beating a character does not mean you are an equal Type to them on the Weight scale. As someone put it in the TRS tread, if Sugar Ray Leonard knocked out Mike Tyson, that wouldn't make Leonard a heavyweight.

Edited by KingZeal

Tron: Excuse me, but what are you arguing over? I said in the last line that, since Gustaff can lift boulders, she's beyond human and therefore a Type 2. You said yourself you think of her as a Type 2. There's nothing more to say here.

Hsien-ko: I can't catch your point here. You describe how "people have actually been making the argument that Type 2 and Type 3 should be merged." This is valid by irrelevant to Hsien-ko, at the moment*

. Further "Hsien-ko is a type 3" is simple statement. It honestly lacks any backing; I could just as well argue that the number of abilities doesn't matter if said abilities are lame heart abilities (this is an exaggeration in regards to Hsien-ko, but the point stands). Like I said, rules like these aren't really worth arguing about here. Maybe after the trope is (if ever) repaired.

Sentinel: This isn't the character page. This trope, at multiple points, deals in media, fan-based and observational tropes. Random Power Ranking for instance points out how little of Thor's in-universe Super-Speed comes into play with his gameplay style, yet also pokes fun at this. Power Creep, Power Seep references the in-universe abilities of the cast and later invokes MST3K Mantra. Arbitrary Gun Power points out how unrealistic the gun-related attacks are; in fact, several times in the character pages it's pointed out how unlikely certain characters would be to calling out their attack names. Basically this page hasn't given me any indication that it's dealing completely and entirely in in-game concepts. You said yourself that we essentially can't include game mechanics in our consideration. If that leaves us with cinematics and a few Hyper Combos, then all we can say about Haggar is that he's strong enough to break a wooden billboard. As for Sentinel, I'm going to need some citation on your description of his powers; I can't see anything he's done that suggests super strength or senses. Given this model's size, he could very-well be a canon fodder Mecha Mook.

M.O.D.O.K: You keep saying that I still haven't seen anyone agree with you. Like I said above with Hsien-ko, this issue of quality versus quantity has little point until the case is close and the TRS thread is locked.

Morrigan: She's explicitly said to be in the S-Class for inhabitants of Makai. She's regarded to be several times above most of the cast. To put this into perspective, Pyron is about the size of a solar system, moves faster than light, and is made of energy, preventing him from being physically hurt. He's an A-Class in Makai terms. Jedah Dohma is S-ranked, and he can create whole realms for his purposes. She's most likely more powerful than him. Basically,in canon, she could potentially do things that border on God-like, if she felt the need. If you're worried about the Take Our Word for It nature of everything I've just said, keep in mind that Phoenix and Akuma don't really do much in-game to suggest their placement. Standing on a battlefield littered with your (off-screen) defeated opponents or looking menacing in front of the cast doesn't count. Bringing "when" this game is set is irrelevant since the events presented are far from canon (since Ghosts n Goblins, Resident Evil and Okami take place in their own universe). Given Dante's appearance and quotes or Amaterasu having all her brush powers and yet still seeking out Orochi, I'd regard the whole cast as a bunch of Composite Characters (if we bring concepts like "when" into this, we could just as well throw Thor into Class 4 since his Rune powers and Odin Force he gains later may as well be reality-warping, and there isn't much to suggest he doesn't have these powers in the game).

Edited by Alucard

Sentinel: You're using this trope on the main page to describe the characters, not the game. It doesn't matter it's on the actual character page or not. This is a works page about Marvel Vs Capcom 3, not the home series of each character. If people want to know the Super Weight scale for each individual character, let them read those work pages. Now, that being said, I'm not considering game mechanics in my assessment of Sentinel. I'll concede on Super-Strength, though; at the very least, we still see the robot display flight, energy projection, force fields, extendable limbs, and super senses ("Mutant entity detected"; (after defeating Wesker) "Target is not a natural mutant. Enhanced abilities a result of cellular augmentation.". That's not game mechanics; those are actual powers being dsplayed.

Morrigan: I don't care about Darkstalkers canon, so I don't know why you keep bringing it up. Where in this game does Morrigan demonstrate that she's a reality-warper (the criteria for being a Type 4)? Akuma is listed as Type 3 last I checked (and if he isn't, he needs to be), and like I said, Phoenix is a case of Informed Ability (if you want to demote her, too, though, be my guest). And your second point only furthers my argument: the characters we seen displayed in this game do not display any of the enhanced abilities associated with the PEAK of their power scale. Using Thor or Amaterasu as a comparision to Morrigan doesn't mean anything, because quite frankly, Thor w/Mjolnir is a Reality Warper—a power set he does NOT use in this game. So yeah, you're making my point for me.

Sentinel: You dodged the issue: I've pointed out that the page deals in references to the roster's home series at many points and I stated that this particular trope was written with the home series powers in mind. Secondly, the fact that the Sentinel's mutant-detecting abilities could just barely be called a "sense" by a wide stretch proves how badly tech-themed characters fit in this scale.

Morrigan: You haven't given me any reason to think this trope shouldn't be dealing exclusively in the character's own universe. Obviously, the in-universe rules become sketchy when these non-fighting game characters are converted for a fighting game. The fact that crossover fighting games run into this problem so often is what the trope is poking fun at in this particular case; based on the crowner, the trope itself is most likely going to be labeled "Just For Fun", thus its purpose on this page. If you decide to start inserting arguments like "Thor can't Speed Blitz his opponent in 2 seconds therefore he should have his class lowered", you start to lose the point of the trope.

I don't think the other editors are going to be too happy with Phoenix being a class 3 or Akuma being a Class 2 just because they never do anything on-screen to suggest otherwise. That's grade-A nerdrage-bait right there. Just by the limits of the game mechanics the whole cast becomes a Class 3 or lower (technically we don't see any of the upper limits of Galactus' ability either). If you want this scale to rigidly go by in-game feats, keep in mind that you'll piss off a lot of fans and make the trope a lot less useful (especially to people who aren't familiar with the franchises these characters come from).

I'll ask you a simple question: give me a good reason why this scale shouldn't be dealing in the roster's home-universe feats and power-levels?

Edited by Alucard

Sentinel: You're splitting hairs. "Senses" simply means the ability to discern information from various forms of stimuli. Sentinel can detect mutants and analyze cellular structures. A normal human being cannot do any of these things under ordinary circumstances. Thus, that by itself is a Type 2 superpower.

Morrigan: The main reason why we shouldn't be dealing with home series is because, just as I said, that makes this redundant. Let people view the information on the main Super Weight page or elsewhere. There's no point in listing it here, especially since most of it doesn't apply ("Morrigan is a Type 4? Coulda fooled me!"). If you don't feel that's a "good" reason, then I guess we can argue some more.

I said Akuma should be a Type 3, not a Type 2. Galactus demonstrates the ability to control the fabric of reality (altering his own mass, teleporting, recreating characters as heralds, and outright bringing two planets from alternate realities into close proximity to each other in order to be consumed (as in his ending). If that isn't Type 4, then I give up.

Edited by KingZeal

Sentinel: I still think Robots, weapons and tools make little sense on this scale ("Mutant Detecting Sensors" would be more accurate). That question is for the TRS, so I'm not going into it. If, hypothetically, the Sentinel were a human with super powers identical to what it has now, I'd still stick them under Type 2 because, as I've made clear, I'm for quality over quantity (though this could all be solved if Type 2 and 3 were merged).

Morrigan: And there's where we hit a problem; I can't find Super Weight being mentioned on any other crossover page, so there's no rule on how to proceed with this. Since I said already that the reason the trope is here is point out that if Chris Redfield and Ryu were to ever "actually" fight, Ryu would win. That's the humor behind it. If we go by the abilities demonstrated in the game alone, that humor is lost. Like I said, Super Weight's placement on this page (as an interesting read) becomes a lot less useful.

Sentinel: Yeah, then it seems we're at an impasse until the TRS comes to a consensus.

Morrigan: But see, that's the thing: the trope is not a "who would win" assessment. It's meant to categorize the types of superhumans you see in media, not to stack them against one another and pick out who would win based on rank alone. Again, the trope page flat out says that a person who defeats someone of another rank is not automatically a higher rank than that person. Any "who would win" question is subjective; remember, Ryu faces against Type 1 characters all the time (Balrog for instance) with no guarantee of victory and Chris has been fighting Type 2-3 superhumans for nearly a decade by his Resident Evil 5 incarnation.

Edited by KingZeal

Morrigan: "Who would win" wasn't my main point. I was saying that the scale's purpose on the page is mainly "Just For Fun" (like the trope itself will soon be). If you're missing the humor in Chris punching out Dormammu then I can't help you.

Edited by Alucard

So based on Lilith appearing in Morrigan's latest ending in Ultimate, we can assume this isn't the fully-powered Morrigan we're playing as. So we can safely call her a Class 3 (her De-powered self is still pretty strong).

There's no way to say one way or the other that we're suppose to assume that the Darkstalkers characters are... continuing themselves from the last game in their own series. Lilith showing up in her ending doesn't confirm any change in her power level one way or another, especially since her presence isn't strictly mentioned, or that Morrigan's ending changed any from her Vanilla ending.

A lot of the Ultimate endings are the exact same as they were in vanilla, save for some visual additions into the scenes. I wouldn't say that Lilith showing up means that she hasn't been absorbed by Morrigan like she was at the end of Darkstalkers... Just that Capcom decided to liven up the demonic party a little by including the presence of more demonic characters.

Long story short: Morrigan's character bio is still the best we have for judging her power ranking for this game.

Edited by DRCEQ

I don't trust that bio at all; It has Dante and Vergil at a speed-level of 3 (super-sonic velocity, maxing Mach-1) while Wesker is a 5 (Orbital Velocity). Frankly the power rankings haven't improved all that much despite being re-adjusted for Ultimate.

It's kind of become obvious that cross-over games have troubling working with the Super Weight trope with all the Composite Characters running around; Ryu has aspects of his SFIII self, who has overcome and surpassed the Satsui No Hadou completely, and yet his Fighting Ability is a mere 5 ("Master of a single form of combat").

Master of a single form of combat.. He only practices one type of martial art. Admittedly a martial art who's moves can slightly change depending on whether you embrace evil or not, but it's all still just one style.

Ryu has mastered several forms of martial combat besides his original school's style. For that matter, his original style is itself a mix of several other styles. By all means he should at least be a 6 in fighting skill ("Master of several forms of combat") if not a 7 in light of his ki-prowess (at a skill-level like his, just about any style can become exceedingly effective if he's the one using it).

Edited by Alucard

Maybe Marvel figures that since he only uses one fighting style, he ranks as a 6 in terms of game mechanics.

There's the problem: the game ranks him as a 5.

I'm saying the Marvel grid might not be the best indicator; the entire Marvel side of the cast is largely inconsistent with their ratings on the official Marvel website.

Just out of curiosity: what other styles has Ryu mastered?

Pillow fighting.

I'm quite confident in my shitposting you know

Apparently various forms of Karate with elements of Judo, Taekwondo, and probably some amazing, sharp-shooter accuracy to throw all those fire-balls around (Hawkeye and Bullseye are cases of accuracy being counted towards Fighting Ability).

And pillow-fighting.

Edited by Alucard

"Probably"? Are we going by something officially cited, or is this guesswork?

What does it matter. "Ansatsuken" is a fusion of several styles and Ryu has mastered it (and he has picked up a few other moves on his travels; Capcom wouldn't argue with that). He counts for a Fighting Prowess of at least 6.

I'm still saying these grids on the game itself shouldn't be trusted: Strider is a 7 in Fighting Skill at roughly 20 years of age. To put that into perspective, the only Marvels with that kind of fighting skill are people that've been alive for a very long time (Wolverine) and been schooled in combat during that time (Ares), people that can mimic others (Hope Summers, Taskmaster) or people with magic powers that let them become very good fighters. Humans aren't really supposed to reach this level since Captain America is a 6 and he's the highest peak of human ability (The Iron Fists and their rogues gallery might be the exception, such as this guy)

http://marvel.wikia.com/Category:Fighting_Ability_-_Master_of_all_forms_of_combat

Edited by Alucard

No.