Discussion VideoGame / FinalFantasyVIII

darn.. hmm does this link work... http://chocoboworld.centerblog.net/rub-final-fantasy-viii--2.html

I don't wish to come off like I'm closed minded or 'didn't get it". Playing this game as much as I have, I can honestly say I get it. If there was ANY honest message I get from the game it was just about the love story. I guess I could see the part "soldiers from a young age and taught to suppress their emotions and free will for the sake of the mission" would apply to Squall, but the entire description come off like every character suppress their emotions, which quite frankly is not true in any sense the phrase. And even then, Squall didn't suppress his emotions because of being a See D, he suppressed them because he didn't want to get hurt again when Ellone was taken away from him.

There are also clear instances in the cases of Quistis and Irvine. It really shows up around the assassination mission.

Quistis was promoted too young; she's an eighteen-year-old SeeD instructor who can't handle the emotional demands of the role, with the result that she plays favorites among her students (clearly favoring Squall over Seifer) and tries to cling to Squall for support that he's not equipped to provide (the scene at the Secret Area on the night of the graduation ball; also note that although she has seniority over the other SeeDs and should assume command of the team when she arrives in Timber, she quickly defers to Squall instead). She later jeopardizes a mission by leaving her post because she wants to apologize to Rinoa for what from a military perspective was an entirely justified Not a Game lecture, her emotions overriding her training.

Irvine blows it during the same mission for the same reason, in a case that's been discussed in great detail on the Headscratchers page. He's assigned to assassinate the sorceress, who turns out to be the woman who raised him after he was orphaned. He acts flaky and difficult when he joins the team because of that and the fact that they are his childhood friends and don't seem to recognize him or their target; he fails to tell anyone about his conflict of interest regarding the mission and tries to psych himself up by asking if Edea is "pure evil" and whether or not it's true that SeeDs aren't supposed to question their mission (dialogue with Squall on the way to their post for the assassination), then breaks down completely once he's in position on the carousel clock and can't go through with it until Squall talks him down. Subsequently (and in a healthier example), he breaks with his orders at Rinoa's urging in order to return to the D-District Prison and help the SeeDs escape.

Squall's case is also related. Ellone was the catalyst for his decision to suppress his emotions, but SeeD is the model he used to base his image of a "cool, tough, independent adult" on. If he hadn't been enrolled in military training so early, it's possible he could have learned better coping mechanisms. There's also a bit of dialogue in Timber that highlights the issue for the SeeDs in general, when Squall tells Rinoa, and is backed up unquestioningly by whichever of Zell or Selphie is present, that as SeeDs they will follow her orders regardless of their feelings or the potential risk to their own life, an outlook which Rinoa justly finds very sad.

Quistis kinda came off more like she has a crush on Squall and it showed in her actions. While its true that could be construed as unable to handle he emotional demands, it still shows that she has clear emotions and acts on them. Also? All those actions they only happen on Disk 1! It's kinda hard honestly to see this message encompassing the entire game as it's only scene in a few scenes that don't even take up that much time in a single disk.

Irvine was NEVER a professional soldier. He came off more like a Mercenary trained by the garden, but he still lives by his own rules and way of life. Returning to save Squall and the others didn't seem like not following orders, but rather he thought it would be too dangerous to do so and to bring Rinoa(A Civilian) into what would be a war zone!

To be honest, I find the whole concept of Military life in this game like it's under-played. Like it's something more of a chore and inconvenience for the students. The whole idea of suppressing their emotions and free will doesn't mix with the way the Garden is even run! All of the students just act like regular highschool students with no real emotional scarring, The Headmaster Cid acts more like a surrogate father to all his students then some rigid and tough military trainer and really? I find it hard to believe See D has ANY standards when it comes to emotional state-of-mind when an airhead like Selphie is made one. (Not bashing on her as a character, I'm just saying her attitude would NEVER gel in any kind of Military upbringing or operation.)

I'm sorry, I'm just saying I can't support this message of every main character suffering from suppressed emotions and the so-called "conflict between childhood and adulthood" when at most it only applies to one character(The Main Character sure) and for the wrong reason!

I find it hard to believe See D has ANY standards when it comes to emotional state-of-mind when an airhead like Selphie is made one. (Not bashing on her as a character, I'm just saying her attitude would NEVER gel in any kind of Military upbringing or operation.)

Truth in Television. Generation Kill shoots down this notion with real life US Marines. Yes, people as aggressively violent and "airheaded" as Selphie not only occupy modern militaries, but they are actually members of elite special forces units like Force Recon. And they can still do their jobs quite well.

But keep in mind this is a Japanese-culture ridden game. The Japanese military would likely be more strict then American. Not saying better mind you, just stricter.

What, exactly, are you basing that assessment on?

But keep in mind this is a Japanese-culture ridden game. The Japanese military would likely be more strict then American. Not saying better mind you, just stricter.

Factually unsound (no evidence given that the JSDF is any "stricter" than other militaries) and irrelevant to my point. Whether or not the Japanese military is strict or not doesn't matter; you said that Selphie's attitude wouldn't "gel" with "any" kind of military. I pointed out how Selphie is mild compared to effective real-life military units.

Even so, that still doesn't negate my point that military upbringing is under-played in this game.

My reason for removing the trope from the page is that the roles keep getting changed around as everyone has their own ideas for how they should be assigned. As per the main trope page:

"These are examples of teams that fit at least four of the character tropes. Remember that they form a team dynamic; it's always tempting to match two of the characters in a show, then try to convince yourself and others that the other characters can be squeezed/wedged/stuffed into the description of the other character types, but that's not the point of the Five-Man Band trope. The individual character types exist outside of the band. The Five-Man Band only occurs when the team as a whole fits, not just a few characters."

The only roles I have seen that are not constantly subject to dispute are Squall as The Hero and Quistis as The Smart Guy.

For The Lancer, I've seen just about everyone suggested, including Zell, Selphie, and Rinoa. The Lancer's article defines the role as being a Foil to The Hero - in FFVIII, Squall's primary foil is Rinoa, not Zell. You can make a case for it in that Zell's personality contrasts Squall's, but that's the case for most of the party; although he wants to be trusted with leadership whenever the subject comes up, he only really gets the chance to step up once.

The Big Guy: Irvine fits only in the sense that he's the tallest member of the team, which isn't really relevant to the trope. He was brought in for a specific skill that was required by the strategy the assassination was built on, not because he's a "powerhouse" as described by the trope; Zell, as a Boisterous Bruiser who explicitly relies on brawn foremost and is frequently seen punching things even outside of combat, fits the trope best, although Selphie also works as a magical Cute Bruiser whose ideas for problem-solving usually involve blowing things up.

The Smart Guy: Quistis doesn't even fit the role all that well, and she's one of the ones that isn't generally disputed. Although she's reputed to be very intelligent, we don't actually see her acting as the brains of the team in any situation. Her intelligence is mostly an Informed Ability rather than an asset to the team; Zell, who is presented as Dumb Muscle, does a better job of it than Quistis does by virtue of at least being surprisingly well-informed.

The Chick: The article defines The Chick as being the character who keeps the team pulled together emotionally, encouraging them to work together and inspiring them. Selphie does not do this. She's cheerful, yes, but there aren't really many instances of her being the one to step up and actually lift people's spirits, except at Trabia Garden where she exerts herself to cheer up people outside the team; we see Irvine doing this sort of thing within the team much more often (asking Squall to cheer Selphie up, and then organizing the Garden Festival, and again at the basketball court in disc 2). Selphie more commonly pipes up after someone else has already said something encouraging. I have also seen Rinoa suggested for this role as well, but she doesn't really do this sort of thing for the team as a whole, only for Squall.

I personally am comfortable with the way the roles were laid out before your edits, but since there's been this kind of debate before and it's almost guaranteed to come up again the next time someone else comes along and feels they have a better idea, that says to me that the trope as a whole simply doesn't apply and shouldn't be on the page to invite more edit wars.

Lancer: If the Hero is unsocial, the Lancer may be the more social person. Zell just loves trying to get people to accept him, and talk, even if he doesnt prevail.

Big Guy: True Zell can fit this as well, but Irvine can't really fit anywhere else, except mabe the Chick since he had his memories of childhood with the gang. The Trope isnt about size, its about action. And the whole reason Irvine was put on the team was to kill a sorceress. He was there to fight someone from the get-go.

Smart Guy: Quistis is indeed smart. Is she leadership smart giving the orders? No, cause she isnt that kind of smart. But she is easily depicted as having the most booksmarts in the team.

The Chick: Selphie can be argued to be support to the team in this way. Such as when she gets the Ship flying, and everyone's psyched to attack the enemy base. Or the Galbaldia Missle Base mission where she inspires the mission, and even tells the characters that Squall cares about them because he trusted them on the mission. Just ebcause she needs support herself at times doesn't mean she isnt a support giver.

And Rinoa is just too distant from the gang to be in the Main 5 positions. Just because she is like the co-star doesnt make her the Lancer. Besides being Squalls employer for a while, she didnt have nearly as much association with things til the end. thats what makes her a good 6th ranger. Your entire point of taking the trope off is the fact it can be debated, which means there are even more possibilities and reason the trope should be on.

It was bad before because 2 people were listed under the Big Guy role. Thats sloppy, especially when a more simple and just as reasonable solutions lies. There doesnt need to be 6 people in a 5 Man band without a ^th Ranger.

Yes, Zell is more social than Squall. So is everyone else. As I said, that alone isn't enough of a basis to qualify anyone as The Lancer. The team doesn't have a clear second-in-command - Quistis, Selphie, and Zell each take a turn at leading when the party has to split up. The only character who routinely acts on their own initiative is Rinoa, who is the character whose personality is also most regularly contrasted against Squall's.

Irvine simply doesn't fit The Big Guy. All of the SeeDs are combatants, but Irvine isn't defined by his combat strength. He is originally brought in not as firepower but because he has a skill the others don't, a point which is relevant only for the duration of the assassination mission anyhow; after that, his role in the team has nothing to do with strength and everything to do with emotional connections.

Quistis is smart - or so we're told. Name the smart things that she does to help the party, or the information or intelligence that she brings to the table that helps the team. Again, the Five-Man Band is about the party dynamic; it doesn't matter how smart a character is supposed to be if their supposed intelligence isn't benefiting the team in any way.

As for Selphie, I can't think of any instances in which she successfully inspires or psychs up the team herself. More often she's upbeat at inappropriate moments and is ignored ("Love and peace!"), or speaks up to second someone else's encouragement ("Yeah, happy is good."). Again, compare Irvine, whose actions repeatedly have a much clearer effect on the other team members and who seems much more invested in keeping them together and centered as a team.

If a clear consensus as to who fits what role can't be reached - if it's subject to constant debate and there are multiple possibilities and arguments for who fits what role - then the team doesn't fit the trope as it's described on the trope page, and the trope doesn't belong in the game's article. This is not a trope in which differing possibilities make it more applicable instead of less; there should be a reasonably clear delineation of which roles most of the team members play for it to qualify.

But Zell really tries to be social, unlike others who are just being themselves. He is a Lancer in the way of contradicting Squall in many ways, without mirroring him as Seifer does. Rinoa is as much a Lancer to Squall as Aerith is to Cloud, Garnet to Zidane, or even Princess Leia to Luke. She isnt around enough, led alone with Squall himself.

The Big Guy doesnt have to be the strongest in the group. Its representatation, the Big Guy is rarely actually the strongest on the team. What more than a gun with a quick trigger to blast everyone away to be the big guy. It's generaly the same as Barret really. Just because Irvine isnt a bulging crazy guy though, you seem to think he can't qualify. And his role actually becomes more of he WANTS to fight for the team, considering his job after disc one was to take back Rinoa from jail, but he instead goes back, and saves them by holding down Galbaldia with his support fire. Having emotional connections isn't really a role.

Quistis smarts: 1) Taught Squall, Seifer and Zell to become Seeds, two in which succeeded. 2) Teaches about GF's and and effects and origins. 3) Teaches about junctioning and magics. 4) teaches status elements and strategies. 5) Teaches Combat abilities and Limit Breaks...

Selphies encouragements: 1) Lets jump off a cliff to get to our mission. 2) Encouraging the Team when they think Squall forskaed them, telling them that he only trusted them. 3) Everyone is down and depresed after Missle Strike on Balamb. Lets throw a concert to replace the festival. 4) Squall is a downer and just became leader, lets makes the Concert in his honor. 5) Hey I just got the ship working, lets go kick their ass.

if you really disagree with this, than lets atleast try and come up with a compromise to put down, that is logical and agreeable. There is no need to just take off a trope because their are imposing ideas of how it should go. Thats just lazy.

"Rinoa is as much a Lancer to Squall as Aerith is to Cloud, Garnet to Zidane, or even Princess Leia to Luke. She isnt around enough, led alone with Squall himself."

Incorrect. Aerith, Garnet, and Leia don't contrast Cloud, Zidane, and Luke the way Rinoa does Squall. She is an optimist where he is a cynic. She lives in the moment where he obsesses over the past and worries about the future. She's an idealist where he is a mercenary. She repeatedly tries to take action on her own - another hallmark of The Lancer, and one of the reasons that your argument that "she's not around enough" doesn't convince me, since that's one of the things The Lancer does.

I'm also not sure how you figure Zell "tries" to be social any more than any other character; he is also "just being himself," the same as, for example, Selphie.

"Having emotional connections isn't really a role." Yes, it is. That's what The Chick is all about. In any case, Irvine's role on the team is never defined as "firepower," it's defined first as "specialist" at the beginning when he's not properly integrated into the team, and later, when he is really a member of the team in fact, it's as the guy who goes out of his way to pull the others together and cheer them up (the concert at FH) or give them focus (the basketball court at Trabia).

I must point out that everything you've brought up as Quistis using her intelligence to benefit the team are tutorials which are completed before there is a team at all; not even Zell has joined at that point (and there's no indication that he was ever in Quistis' class). Once there's actually a team form and Quistis has joined it, I can only think of one instance where it could even be argued that Quistis' intelligence served the team, and that was finding the secret passage out of Caraway's house, correcting an error in judgment that she made in the first place.

Your arguments for Selphie don't hold up either. Jumping off a cliff doesn't encourage or inspire anything; Zell thinks she's nuts for doing it. There's no response to her attempt to reassure the rest of the missile base team that Squall trusts them. Irvine, not Selphie, is the one who decides to throw a concert at FH and cheer everyone up, and who goes to the effort to make it happen and to put Rinoa in charge of making sure Squall has a good time. And getting the Ragnarok working only happens after Quistis has read Squall the riot act and inspired him to decide to go back to the Sorceress Memorial.

The reason I deleted the trope is not just because I disagree with you. It's because I've seen the roles argued over before, and I have no doubt that whatever decision we could possibly reach would be argued over again later the next time someone else came along and saw it differently. If you can ask ten tropers how the roles sort out and get five different arrangements, that's a sign that the trope doesn't apply and shouldn't be shoehorned on.

At the very least, I'd like to hear input from other tropers on whether they think the trope actually fits without being forced, and if so, how they see the roles sorting out.

To say Zell doesn't apply to the Lancer position to Squall is like saying Duo Maxwell isnt a Lancer Heero Yuy in Gundam Wing, and TV Tropes has very much declared that to be the case. Because the relations between the characters in both cases are very identical.

I agree with Tylerox9 you guys need to look at the main ideas in order to get a biger and greater picture of things while keeping the main chreaters into play with this and then adding more into it. He has a good point and states it very well in his descriptions.

I agree with Tylerox9 as well. His argument is backed up with far more details than JoieDeCombat. He got his point across and supported it with evidence, rather than what "he feels." It makes more sense to people who don't agree with either, because it has factual evidence. JoieDeCombat's argument is more opinionated. Thank you. :)

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with Gundam Wing, so I'm not able to make a comparison between Heero and Duo's dynamic versus Squall and Zell's and their example does not help me understand your argument.

I'm a bit at a loss for how my citing of specific events in the game does not count as supporting my arguments with evidence. Reviewing my posts, I don't see where I've argued anything based purely or even mostly on what I feel, except for my argument to remove the trope, which is still supported by the fact that the roles have been argued repeatedly and are now being debated again, which indicates that they are not clearly delineated and how much "logical sense" any given arrangement of them makes is clearly subject to debate.

Aw, I'm sure they didn't mean it exactly like that. Yes, you have listed examples, and have some validness. But what they probably see is that you list a weaker example thats more insignifigant in the game, while I state things throughout the game and capture the characters true esscence. Hence GNGSanetaRose saying the 'Bigger and greater picture.' My way is just more qualifying with details that would, and have, qualify in any othershow/game/movie.

I disagree and see no particular difference in scope or significance in the examples I've provided versus yours. In particular, the concert and basketball court scenes I've cited in my arguments regarding Irvine are major, character-defining scenes in the game.

But there's no sense in getting hung up on debating this point instead of the original topic of discussion, since this boils down to both of us saying "my arguments are better than/just as good as yours," and that's guaranteed to go nowhere productive.

I'd still like to hear opinions from some of the tropers who've worked on the article up until now. No offense to CNGSanetaRose and Humira, but neither of you have any previous edit or discussion history that I can see, and I don't think we'll be able to resolve this disagreement without input from other tropers who've put work into the article (and therefore presumably have some interest in how it's edited).

I think you may be taking things a little personal now. You ask for others opinions, and look for a way to discredit them when they don't agree with you. You're a real piece of work. It isnt about who says the opinions, it about the opinion itself, and everyones word is equal. Ofcourse you disagree with what they think of your opinions, because they are going against what you think, but their opinions still stand. Anyone who voices their opinion has intrest in this obviously, even if they have never bothered to go to edit page and change stuff. And what its boiling down to now is that people are agreeing to one point. And if you are going to be so bitter towards people as to say their opinion are worth less than yours and a certain others, then it is you who should stop editting pages and just stop troping together.

I am not taking this personally, or making personal attacks. I do think that both of the other commenters should be able to explain and defend their own opinions themselves rather than needing you to do it for them, however.

Forgive this intrusion, but I don't see JoieDeCombat doing any of the things you're accusing him of, Tyler, and it is very suspicious when unknown tropers with no edits to their name suddenly show up out of the blue to say nothing more than "I agree with so and so" and make baseless accusations.

I'm not really trying to accuse anyone of anything, in fact, I even tried defending him by admitting some validness in his points. Only thing I accused him of was being unfair to other tropers. Remember, everyone has a beginning, and we dont know just how long some people have been tropers. Heck, I had been troping for half a year before I ever made an account and posted stuff. If we only let the words of certain people be heard, than we might as well just let only them edit and discuss.

Now, since the others have voiced opinions, this is getting off topic and out of hand, so lets focus on the main point here, and that is what people think. We cant lay claim that peoples opinions aren't worthy or call them baseless accusitions on the grounds that you dont know them, you never heard of them or just because they disagree. Whats happening is that people have read our points and are casting their thoughts. And some people take points in different ways. CNG thinks my theory catches the bigger picture of the tropes and characters. thats the base of his/her opinions. Humira thinks your theory feels more opinionated rather strong/concreted. That just means he/she doesn't agree with your points. Nobodies opinions here are being baseless or cruel.

And quite frankly, if this is really how TV Tropes is going to handles these things, just swatting off people that dont meet certain anothers requirements, especially after he asked for them and they disagreed with them, then I'd rather just cut off ties all together, because it needs a rule/lesson taught of equality. Because i remember my lessons from school, and they taught me about people like you

You accused him of "look for a way to discredit [other opinions] when they don't agree with you," and being "bitter" toward the opposition, and saying their opinion is worth less. Those are pretty blatant and, again, baseless accusations.

Yes, I'm going to dispute the validity of the unknown tropers because, again, they show up entirely out of the blue—without any other edits or discussions to their name—just to say they agree with you, and apparently to gang up on Joie De Combat. Their grammar and sentence structure is also suspiciously similar to yours, so this all looks a lot like sock puppetry or like you grabbed a couple friends just to back you up.

Their "opinions" amount to "Tyler's right," and "Joie De Combat's just going by his 'feelings'" which is patently not the case. So yes, if the their opinion is based entirely on falsehood like that, I'd say they're not going to carry the same weight as someone who I know for a fact has been editing this page for a long time, and therefore is well-versed in the game.

the only ganging I see is you guys messing with people because you dont know them, and think they are pointless because of that. Only ganging I see is you guys calling other peoples opinions, things that cant be proven right or wrong in this case, weightless when you have no proof to back up any accusition of suspicion you wish to throw at them. And with that, I say you are the pathetic ones trying to drive off new tropers from fixing your precious tropes or even giving their word on the matter. With that said, I no longer have any wish to continue this. All this stupid corruption, no one should ever bother questioning, because their is only one type of opinion that matters on this website. It's really no different from anyplace else on the internet, despite claiming it is.

So I concede to my arguement. the Trope may be returned to it's original form. But let it be known, it is not because the people agreed to your ways, that your opinions outweighed mine. but because of the desperate acts and accusitions my opposite had to fling out to get his way, and the general corruption this website within it's members and rules, has that just the mere accusition of suspicion or cheating, without any proof, in a discussion is enough to discredit an opinion. this must be more important to you than me, maybe this will be the greatest mark you leave on the world. so i will let you have it your way.

Cut the self-righteous posturing, please. Joie De Combat made his argument, and all he asked for was for the other two to back up their opinions and claims, and they did not—instead, you accused him of being "bitter" and dismissive, when he was clearly none of those things. Nevermind that their opinions amount to "Tyler's right, you guys, he sees the big picture" and "Well, that's just Joie's opinion and his feelings"—the first is just Me Too!, and the latter is patently, demonstrably false.

All he asked was that they back up the opinions that seem to be based on nothing that he actually said—if they posted once, they can certainly post again to clear things up, and nobody's stopping them.

Not all opinions are equally valid. If it's based on something that's clearly wrong (Joie's posts are clearly based on evidence from the game—which he cites in detail—and not just his "feelings"), then yes, it can be dismissed.

You're not being persecuted, the Wounded Gazelle Gambit isn't going to work when both sides are clearly on this site for everyone to see. Stop trying to paint Joie De Combat as the bad guy when he's done none of what you're accusing him.

For now I'm going to assume that you editing my post was an accident, but I would advise it not happen again, since it's a big no-no around here.

I'm sorry the discussion has turned out like this. It's a fact of the internet that an account created the same day and with no other activity on the site is not going to have the same credibility as an account that's been established and involved around the site for a while. I don't think that's out of line, certainly not so far out of line as to justify invoking Godwin's Law.

I'd also like to note again that my argument was never for reverting Tyler's edits. My argument from the beginning was that since our interpretations of the characters' roles in the team are so different, and since other tropers have had other interpretations in the past as well, it's a case of Square Peg Round Trope and doesn't need to be included in the game's article. As stated on the Five-Man Band page, not every team of five or more fits the trope, even when some members of the team may fit the trope descriptions for the individual roles. The page calls for at least four of the roles to be clearly delineated; we can barely agree on two.

Wow, I didn't even catch that pothole the first time. Really, Tyler? Someone disagrees with you about a 13-year-old video game, and they're a Nazi? Really?

I agree that the entry as written was not worded correctly. Even given the somewhat subjective nature of the trope, though, there are at least three distinct points in disc 3 where Squall and Rinoa could be considered to become "official" - the scene on the Ragnarok, the Sorceress Memorial rescue, and the promise at the flower field. By the last of these Squall seems to be acting as though they're in a confirmed relationship, and he's almost certainly the last to know; the rest of the cast treats them as a couple starting much earlier in disc 3.

While I can kind of understand not agreeing that any of these moments constitutes an official hookup, I think the subject may be subject to too much disagreement for the trope to be listed on the page. If it were a YMMV trope that could go on that page, it'd be a different matter - disagreement related to those is only to be expected - but it's not.

Actually, the Last-Minute Hookup trope is really vague. If you read the article, there have been several recent edits to try and make it a YMMV trope without actually doing so, suggesting that because SOME people MAY need deeper confirmation of a relationship, a relationship can count if it doesn't meet their requirements. The trope itself has a few issues that are making it hard to use, period. But that's a discussion for that page.

I thought the Ragnarok moment where the two of them are actually getting physically intimate makes the relationship quite clear, as does the Sorceress Memorial scene that comes directly after it where Squall explicitly breaks Rinoa out of confinement entirely because he loves her. This isn't even just trying to put it through a Japanese lens (though yea, being physically intimate in a culture that considers even hand holding to be intense is a big deal). The Ragnarok scene is even where they played the game's love song. It's pretty clear that even if some people set standards significantly higher, the game's writers certainly considered it a done deal well before the kiss at the credits.

I'd also like to put forward that there's a fairly simple litmus test that can be applied here: by the scene at the Sorceress Memorial, there is no Will They or Won't They? ambiguity remaining in Squall and Rinoa's relationship, in or out of universe. By that point there is no doubt that they're a couple - the only question remaining is how the situation with Ultimecia is going to be resolved.

Pretty much agreeing to all the above. Yes, they kiss at the very end, but the characters being an actual couple occurs in the third disc, either at the Sorceress Memorial or earlier on the Ragnarok, pick whichever one is more thematically appropriate for you.

You'll have to forgive my wording. I wasn't trying to imply anything negative when I edited the description to say "Despite the game being billed as a romance". I just added that because I felt it placed greater emphasis on Squall and Rinoa not getting together until the end (or near the end).

The reason I edited the Last-Minute Hookup description to say what it now does is because if you look at some of the examples on the page, you'll notice that what I described regarding YMMV definitely happens with some of them. For example in Zoey 101, Zoey and Chase flat out tell each other "I love you" in the first episode of the last season, but Chase is gone and doesn't come back until the last episode, which is when they have their first kiss and Zoey refers to Chase as her boyfriend. Which one counts as them being together?

Or with Avatar The Last Airbender, Aang and Katara had their first kiss partway through the third season, but their kiss in final scene of the finale receives much greater emphasis. Again, which one counts? Plus, they never actually say "I love you" to each other at all or anything along those lines like referring to each other as boyfriend and girlfriend, so can they even be considered to have hooked up?

Plus, the examples for Friends and Gilmore Girls also present another problem. The couples did hook up before, but break up and don't get back together until the very end. Does that still count?

In regards to Squall and Rinoa, I don't consider them together until the ending scene because my opinion of They Do happening with a Will They or Won't They? couple consists of a few factors which Squall and Rinoa don't meet prior to right before the credits (though I admit that even these criteria can be open to interpretation). 1.) Both halves of the couple admit they love each other. Even if one admits it, it doesn't count until the other does as well, and the former still has the same feelings at that time. (For example, in Gone With The Wind Rhett openly admits his love to Scarlett throughout the film, but Scarlett doesn't admit her love for Rhett until the end at which point Rhett no longer feels the same way.)

2.) Both admit their love to each other. Not to their friends or family or to themselves, but they have to openly admit it to the other one's face. A lot of the lines Squall uses such as "I've fallen for you" or "I'll be your knight", he never says out loud.

3.) They both tell each other they LOVE each other (though they don't have to use the word love). They don't say they like each other, or admit a long standing crush, or say that they would be together if weren't for some major problem preventing it, or even decide to "just give it a try" to see if it works out. No, they full on admit that they have romantic feelings for each other.

4.) They are in an official relationship. By "official relationship" I mean that both people consider themselves to be a couple and admit it in some way. Squall and Rinoa never use key words like "love" (not counting the Garden Festival scene when she doesn't mean romantic love nor just Squall), "relationship", "dating" or "boyfriend" or "girlfriend".

5.) The couple has The Big Damn Kiss, (which is another trope that's not YMMV but can still get subjective) either before or after the other factors. This one is extremely important because it can actually serve as a substitute for some of the other factors if strong enough. While I think kissing does tend to be over-romanticized, I still feel it's very important in story telling. If Squall and Rinoa had had their Big Damn Kiss on the Ragnarok or in the slow motion FMV at the Sorceress Memorial or in the flower field, I definitely would have considered them to be a couple and not fall into this trope.

That's just my two cents.

I disagree with the assertion that they have to declare that they love each other for this to "count". One doesn't need to say they "love" someone, especially when actions count far more than words - and in terms of actions, Squall and Rinoa are unquestionably a couple by the time the Sorceress Memorial turns around.

And if not by then, then the conversation shortly following it at the flower field. Although the word "love" isn't used, Rinoa tells Squall that it's okay if he has to kill her as long as he's the one to do it, and Squall replies by refusing to even consider the possibility no matter what the consequences for the rest of the world. In context, that's pretty definitive.

Seriously, do they need a signed contract declaring their eternal everlasting love before you'll accept it? The trope you are trying to link is NOT a YMMV trope, and I can't help but notice that jackrabbit is the one who added a lot to that trope's introduction to make it sound more vague than it really is.

Or it could be implying that said subtlety and nuance failed to engage the players.

Same difference. What counts as "subtlety and nuance", compared to other games, anyway? If you wanted to, you could say that Mario is a commentary on the war on drugs.

As much as I'd love to see another endless discussion with King Zeal on FFVIII, I think I'll just rewrite the sentence.

Topic creator? You're more than welcome to do that in the future as well.

I would have, but my edits get edited. So I'd rather open discussions up before doing it going forward.

Fair enough. It had been there for awhile.

It's one thing to just randomly run into a friend from your school years later on and not realize it. It'd be entirely another to run into that friend just a few years later, "learn" their name, and spend an extended period of time with them, and still not realize they're your old childhood friend.

Of course it would be absurd for normal people to not remember that sort of thing. But these aren't normal people; they're people whose last memories of their friends were heavily suppressed by supernatural forces.

I just played it again. The timeline is a bit sketchy and isn't really mapped out when it comes to *when* they went to the orphanage and when they left, especially specifying ages.

Zaptech- Yeah. That's the in-game explanation, but it seems to bother a lot of fans despite the in-universe reasoning behind their memory loss (either they don't buy the GF excuse or simply find the whole memory loss thing absurd period). Ultimately I was just curious about how/why other fans feel this way. Personally I just sort of brush it off and take it face-value, but it's always interesting hearing other people's thoughts.

The whole scene is pretty lame as far as character development goes. It feels like a cop-out from actually having to write out individual pasts for all the characters. Yeah, we all shared the same past, and interacted pretty much the same way as kids as we do now, and we all just forgot.

the excuse for having the scene is equally bad. "it's the GF's fault" thing isn't confirmed. Quistis even says it's just propaganda. 1 minute later everyone just instantly agrees, "Yup, it's the GF" as if it was known all along.

if i had seen this kind of writing in, say, fanfiction.net i'd just stop reading then and there and maybe tell the writer that they really need more practice.

I feel the need to point out that what happened to the characters is not the same thing as meeting "someone from your school years" - they were four and five years old at the time they were separated, and aside from Squall and Seifer there was a period of at least five years before any of them encountered one another again. Do you remember anything about kids you knew when you were four? And if you do, how much of it is actual memory and how much has stayed in your mind because of family stories?

It's not that much of a stretch to suppose that the memory erosion turned "we lived together somewhere else before I came here" to "I have lived here for as long as I can remember (and Seifer's been a jerkass for that long, too)" in a period of five years or so. Frankly, it's more surprising that Irvine remembered anything, considering that he was separated from the others for a good twelve or thirteen years.

I can't speak to all of them, but for a few it's not that they're "not stone cold, iron clad" but that the examples as you're writing them don't appear in the game at all. Like "Dating What Daddy Hates," as the others noted, he doesn't hate Squall or his type.

That was my whole point. Caraway doesn't hate Squall I know that. This was a minor example. The whole thing about Caraway being a Galbadian Army general, Rinoa being in the resistance against Galbadia, and her and Squall falling in love could potentially be seen as this. It's not iron clad. It's merely a small implication, and yet it gets deleted.

Not to mention that I was HALF JOKING. What's wrong with adding a little humour to the site?

The trope listings aren't for things like, "Okay, maybe if you squint and tilt your head a little bit to the left it might look like it." That particular trope is the daughter bringing home a man her father would "never, ever approve of."

Caraway, as a military man, probably would approve of a militarily-trained and disciplined young man on general principle, and as Joie De Combat pointed out, he's working with SeeD anyway, so even that flimsy justification does not apply. And nothing in the game implies that he disapproves of Squall personally in the least.

So it's not even that there's a "small implication," it's that the trope doesn't apply at all. It is not present, referenced, or expected in the work at any time. Tropes that don't apply to the work do not go on that work's page, it's as simple as that.

And you were joking? Having a quick look at your edits, I don't see the "joke" in them. If you're going to try and add humor to the site, it should be based on something relevant, at least, and clear that it's a joke.

"Minor example" would be if Caraway kinda sorta frowned upon Squall. But he doesn't. Heck, he HIRED See D to take care of Edea, which makes him an insurgent against the Galbadian government, which means he's basically on the same side as Rinoa's private little guerrilla. That's right: Rinoa, Squall, and Caraway are all on the same side. Caraway doesn't hate Squall, he doesn't even find him mildly objectionable! He trusts Squall and See D and encourages them to fulfill the task they were hired for.

"Disproportionate Retribution" does not fit either. See D attempting to assassinate Edea was an act of war. Remember: whether it was a single rogue See D trying to kill the sorceress (like Seifer before the brainwash) or a battalion of See Ds, the entire organization is held responsible for its operatives' actions. So... someone hires See D to kill the head of government, it's perfectly logical for said head of government to fight back against See D as a whole. Whether she captures the actual agents is just an added bonus. Squall et all even mention this when Seifer goes at it alone, because they KNOW the sorceress would bring hell upon everyone in See D.

"Window Love" does not fit at all. Just because there are glass bubbles around their heads doesn't make it the trope. It's not even a minor example because "Window Love" explicitly means that the participants try to show physical affection but can't, with the symbolism of the glass being a barrier that prevents them from touching each other. It's a highly specific trope. Squall and Rinoa never try to reach each other through their helmets and never evoke any sentiment of this kind. They just talk, wait until they're aboard the Ragnarok to shed their suits, and then Rinoa gets all lovey-dovey.

"Advanced Ancient Acropolis"? Esthar's capital is extremely young, and it looks futuristic. If anything, maybe "Zeerust." It's not ancient, and it doesn't look ancient. Therefore, trope doesn't apply.

"Chekhov's Skill" refers to an ability that is brought up once, probably early on, and then reused in a later act. "Chekhov's Gun," the original narrative concept that the trope branches off from, refers to plot devices that are mentioned briefly, forgotten or put aside for the majority of the story, and then pulled up again to solve a conflict. Ellone's Mental Time Travel is used constantly all throughout the game, and we're told about it lots and lots of times. It's not a Chekhov's Gun if it's used as consistently as Squall uses his Gunblade. Now, Ellone herself DOES qualify as the Gunman, because she appears once, vanishes, shows up an extremely limited number of times, and her identity is kept secret until The Reveal.

"Mayfly December Romance" mentions can both go. Edea and Cid are the same age. And the Ultimecia=Rinoa thing is Wild Mass Guessing, NOT supported by the game OR by supplemental materials anywhere. It's not even Fanon because the majority of fans reject the theory (precisely because there's no canon support for it.) So it should go in WMG, not on the main trope page.

Also regarding Disproportionate Retribution, don't forget that Ultimecia had every intention of wiping out SeeD anyhow because she knows a SeeD is supposed to kill her in the future. So "retribution" was to some extent just an excuse to begin with.

Unfortunately we never really get much insight into Rinoa's relationship with her father. We see them interact once and afterward the subject isn't brought up again (similar to Rinoa's relationship with Seifer, to what extent did they have a relationship and such — those kind of things took a backseat to the way bigger events happening during the game). Even if she was dating Seifer or Squall just to piss her dad off, we don't have enough evidence to support this... entirely because we don't know why she is on the outs with her dad and/or how she really deals with it. We're only really guessing that she hates him — she could very well not hate him — because all that really happened was she was hesitant to let everyone know outright that he was her dad. IIRC she made some snide comment about him making people wait once they were in the mansion. That's it, though. She could just be embarrassed by him or annoyed that he treats her like a child (locking her in, Caraway probably upset/worried she went off to Timber, her clearly being upset when she thinks people are treating her like a helpless child, etc).

"Squall et all even mention this when Seifer goes at it alone, because they KNOW the sorceress would bring hell upon everyone in See D." Yeah, he screamed at Zell to shut up when Zell let the entire world know they were from a Garden... and since there are only three, one of which was under Edea's control, it wasn't hard to simply target the two others. We see this happen a lot, in fiction and IRL, where the action of one person or group makes the entire organization take blame (a lot how stereotyping works). It's somewhat justified in the case of See D because part of their code makes it so they willingly take full responsibility for the actions of their students and See D. They KNOW they will be held accountable. Probably part of the reason why they're so stingy about who they let become See D — Seifer didn't make it because he was brash and out of control, not because he lacked skill. Also probably why they tend to make their contracts really tight... if not for just the funds, they don't want to overstep the boundaries that could get their entire academy in trouble without the headmaster reviewing and making the judgment call.

Later we learn that Edea's assassination attempt was a ploy of sorts. Knowing Cid afterward we realize he probably never would have okay'd the order to kill Edea. Not because she's his wife (because he's made it clear that he was willing to take her down if it was necessary), but because a god damned bullet will not stop the same type of human that strikes fear in the hearts of every person alive, commands entire armies and starts wars, and tends to be so powerful that a nation like Esther realized they couldn't take one on directly and instead had to seal her power under a 24/7 watch for nearly two decades. In space.

I've never run into it ingame either. It's possible it might have been in supplementary material such as the Ultimania guide, but I've never seen a source referenced.

Sounds like {[Fanon}} to me.

I've cut it for now. If someone knows an official source, they should add it back with an appropriate reference to where it came from.

It's mainly strongly implied with because of:

• The same Gunblade stance
• The same situation between the movie character and Seifer's dream
• The constant reference of being a 'knight'

This is also said wiki's, including Final Fantasy Wiki, but that may or may not qualify as official enough, but it certainly implies that the infomation came from a magazine.

Since anyone can edit a wiki, they're not immune to Fanon, unfortunately. I've poked around a little online but the only reference I found was someone's writeup of their personal theories regarding the game, which doesn't claim to draw from any official source.

Edit: Some further poking around turned up a reference to the information coming from Seifer's profile on page 29 of the Ultimania guide. There's no direct translation available that I can find, but squinting at the page in question I was able to pick out the kanji for "movie" and the katakana for "Laguna," so that seems like it's about as confirmed as I can manage without actually being able to read Japanese.

I'm pretty sure it's not canon, but I never noticed how Laguna's Gunblade style is exactly like Seifer's when it could (nay, should) have been like Squall's (given the whole Ellone junction thing).

I'd just chalk it up as a really good WMG.

My understanding was that the vibration thing is literally taken from the Ultimania.

The Ultimania states that bullets power the blade (in the sense that one would turn the power on to something) when the trigger is pulled (Edit: When the bullet is "set" and the trigger is pulled) - presumably detonating when something is struck. It says nothing about vibration. This only goes to stress the other issues concerning the matter.

Interesting. It wouldn't be the first time something mistranslated from an Ultimania became Fanon.

It's something that just bugs me, I suppose. I've heard that it was the 'official' explanation, when there is nothing official or authoritative about it (hell, it doesn't even make sense at alot of points). I'm thinking it's too far gone to really step in and make waves trying to change it, but it's a worthwhile note I just wanted to make.

If you have an actual source and translation, I'd suggest adding it here, then correcting the page itself. You could even note the "vibroblade" part is something of a myth.

I prefer accuracy over keeping Fanon follewers happy :P

http://thelifestream.net/final-fantasy-vii/ultimania-translations-final-fantasy-vii/5685/the-new-seed-grows-further-more-translations-from-the-final-fantasy-viii-ultimania-keyword-section/#more-568

Insane link, I know, but it's the easiest to find and I believe more accurate of the translations. I'll post the gunblade entry.

"GUNBLADES Combining the sword with a standard shotgun’s mechanisms, the Gunblade is a unique weapon. If you pull the trigger while the bullet is “set,” a strong wave of power will travel down to the edge of the blade, raising the attack power of the Gunblade. By pulling the trigger at the right time, one can release a powerful attack; however, achieving competency in usage of the Gunblade is very difficult and therefore requires a high degree of aptitude."

Now, I can understand how the vibroweapon fans can construe this. But...Let's face it, that has to either be the most convoluted means of implying vibration, or it's Exactly What It Says on the Tin and it's not vibration.

Coming in a bit late on this one, but since the description given indicates that the "strong wave of power" is kinetic power, what would you call it other than vibration? I don't see anything indicating that it's supposed to mean it's an Energy Weapon, either in the description or in the way it's animated ingame.

Perhaps the blades on gunblades aren't as "fixed" as they look. The gunpowder could easily propel the blade deeper into the target like a single-shot jackhammer.

In fact, I could easily design something just like that, powered by compressed air instead of gunpowder, but it could work.

Okay, what I see is a topic that simultaneously makes compulsorily moving character tropes and whining about people moving them not wiki policy.

You're not looking hard enough. I myself wanted the character tropes to only be on the characters pages, but there is no reason for them to be removed from the main page. Character tropes are part of the work. By keeping them on both pages, we give them more exposure, which is never a bad thing.

Well, I think it applies because things you heard 'bout this stuff suggests that the characters have been doing this military stuff from even before the game starts. No one ever says the See D exam was their only field mission, and Seifer had even taken that exam twice before Squall and Zell go with him at Dollet. If memory doesn't fail me, I think Quistis stated that she graduated as Seed as either 15 or 16.

Point is, at 17, they might be around the age to start military service, but they arguably started it far earlier, considering all the training they have had to undergo to become the warriors they are. They might have started at the age of 10 or so around.

And I think the key word is that people are starting military service in the real world at 18. So a year before real world people are starting military service, SeeD graduates are pulling off covert ops, assassinations, and full scale invasions as special shock troopers. These are tasks that, in the real world, are usually reserved for people who have already put in years of military service.

On the other hand, since they've been trained since childhood to do this and aren't handed the responsibility until adulthood (or near adulthood anyway), it doesn't seem so improbable.

I guess when I see that trope, I imagine them putting a gun in the hands of a 10 year old and telling him to command the troops.

That would be Improbable Age taken a bit to the extreme. ^^U

Considering how many JRP Gs I've played...

I...Think that it fits. In the sense that Improbable Age fits with Child Soldiers, which is exactly what See D is about. Especially since not every kid in the game can notably fight, where even some that are trained aren't particularly good at it.

Galbadia Garden's program, however, doubles as a training academy for it's soldiers. Your Mileage May Vary on how closely it applies in that particular case.

The first two would fall in Colour-Coded for Your Convenience. The last, mmm... maybe Sensitive Guy and Manly Man?

They were deliberately designed to reflect each other, though I'm not sure if the tropes above quite fit. While Squall is sensitive in a way, Seifer's such a blowhard because he's at least as insecure as Squall is.

I almost think we need a new trope for this.

Wouldn't such deliberate design make Seifer be Squall's Evil Counterpart?

Good point - even if they didn't start out as purely opposed, Seifer's still pretty antagonistic to Squall.