Discussion Series / ICarly

I’d say so.

Despite still being called simply iCarly, it’s quite clear that it’s not the same show due to the fact that one is a kids show & the other is being aimed at adults.

Why can't he do it for both of them? It's obvious that Missy isn't the friend Carly thinks she is. He also wants to protect the show.

^ He didn't have a problem until Sam told him she was trying to get rid of her.

I'm a Troper!!!

What got moved to where?

I'm a Troper!!!

The main page used to be the ptitle version located here: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/main/Ptitle61iywy45 (with subsequent discussion page at https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/remarks.php?trope=Main.Ptitle61iywy45 )

It's probably going to change again anyway when someone gets around to moving everything from "main/icarly" to "series/icarly". Because that's what is meant to happen right?

It's in here I think it's the current way. Admins have to do it.

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HowToMoveAPage

I've reported this page to be moved.

I doubt the mods will want to do the rest. There's nothing in there that we really need back I think.

Once this discussion page is moved, we then have the choice:

Cut list all the ptitle versions, or make them hard redirects.

I'd recommend the redirect to save the inbounds and any inbound links online.

Edited by mack

All other problems with shipping have been fixed in this discussion page (as can be seen, very minor and only a small number), but now theschwab34 has started on editing other's WMG pages (not for the first time) so I'd have to agree with a page lock until he can be talked to by mods to stop him from doing so. The shipping stuff is minor for me, and I use it in a way that follows the tropes we have for fandom/fan culture for me on tvtropes, mine has been sunk/abandoned for 2 years and I started on the page before any shipping happened, maybe he's just lashing out because his just got sunk/abandoned a couple weeks ago. It's just sad watching someone who doesn't care about the site itself causing issues ruining it for the rest of us just because he can't stand anyone's opinion but his own, even in specifically 'wild guessing' pages.

Thanks for taking action Fighteer.

Actually, you are the problem Mack. You spread bias all through this T Vtropes pages. Also nothing got sunk. Sam Puckett and Freddie Benson love each other. You try to run the nuetral people off this trope site as well as seddie fans. I'm sorry i don't back away like others and let you get away with spreading falsehoods on these trope pages. Making stuff up like you do.

You hate Sam Puckett. You hate anything to do with Sam and Freddie. I fix the blatant falsehoods you add. So I would like to thank the mods for locking some of them. So you can't add any more BS to them.

Edited by theschwab91

Yeah okay. You take this stuff way too seriously, hating a fictional character on a site that's about cataloguing their character builds with specific tropes is a ridiculous idea. I take what I see on screen and match it to existing tropes. The people who edit the page dealt with the so called "bias" (which ended up being a bare handful of tropes) earlier and nothing has changed.

As you can see, I asked above for a moratorium (that's a pause) on all shipping related tropes until the arc ended (or even the season), and instead you just kept editing things. So I left it alone then fixed it after it ended. If you work with people (like Carla did) you might find your time here more productive.

What has changed is you going around editing other people's WMG entries. Again. On a third or fourth article. That isn't right.

No objections, so I did it just now, and put the episode specific page onto the cut list.

I might do another alphabetical page, but not at the moment.

Just in case someone goes here instead of main page.

Sam/Freddie isn't an Official Couple yet. They are 3 episodes into a 5 episode arc. They could end the arc split up, separated, not together. They could have a Ship Sinking. We don't know what is going to happen yet, so calling them an Official Couple is premature. Wait the 2 weeks until the arc ends, and if they are still together you can go ahead and put them as the Official Couple.

Please don't edit them in again for a third time.

You know what.

Fine.

Whatever. I really can't care enough to continue an edit war that's going to end one way or another in two weeks.

They broke up. Removed Official Couple.

• Anguished Declaration of Love.

Carly says quite strongly "but I love you" and is cut off. I think that's enough to qualify, the trope isn't especially strict about usage/intention. It also says that they don't often work, which is what happened here.

• Character development

He still has feelings for her all the way up to iDo in season 4. He saves her life, becomes her girlfriend but then refuses a relationship despite still wanting it. I'd say that's a pretty nice character development in that specific area. I'll reword it though.

• Ascended Fanon

I just cut from the main page area because it's been repair shopped and is now Sure, Why Not? (which I'm sure was a separate trope before) and supposedly a trivia entry.

Edited by mack

I have to disagree with the Anguished Declaration of Love. Sure she was about to say she loved him, but I don't think it was all that anguished enough to count.

"That's a to-go order. See! It's already gone!!"

I've removed some Natter and justifying edits in the Analysis page. If you want to create your own part of that page to say she is a Purity Sue, then do that. We don't need any edit war or to fill the page with natter. For what it's worth I don't really see how you can call her flaws any thing like Informed Flaw. Not for example, when Shane and Griffin both called her out for her behaviour, Spencer called her out for disobeying him and punished her, she spent an entire episode being terrible at art, and she's been shown as having very bad taste in guys as well. It's hardly 'informed' at all. Her flaws are all shown on screen for anyone watching the episodes.

Edited by mack

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/posts.php?discussion=12922537450A14786000&page=1

Confirmation from Fast Eddie that Natter isn't wanted in YMMV pages, Analysis here was created so that several YMMV tropes could be expanded in their explanations and as such I have taken out the natter again.

Edited by Confession0791

I apologise for not being aware the discussion on that matter. My revert was not an attempt to Edit War, but to make a point.

1) There are nine entries and 17 sub-entries on Sam being a Canon Sue, Jerkass, etc.; all negative. There is but one entry about Carly - which only articulates she is no longer a Purity Sue - positive. Where's the balance?

2) Where are the other characters' analysis? Why only Sam and Carly?

3) Having multiple analysis pages is not an option. This is the one linked to the main page. It should be a collaborative effort.

I have replied on the analysis discussion page.

I'd say it's both.

Actor Allusion only. I think it just misses out on being a Shout-Out since it's not an actual 'shout out' if you get my drift, but it is an Actor Allusion.

Carly fits the Mary Sue trope very closely, actually. Abnormal life, no real character flaws, loved by everyone, resolves every conflict... etc. Although she does turn into a Bratty Teenage Daughter occasionally, she still fits this trope to a T.

It was intended as a place-holder. I left it as I assumed people would 'fill in' funny moments from each episode. That didn't happen though, which is a bit odd.

So we can either fill in the moments or cut them? I don't care either way.

My guess is whoever added it is stretching the "naive" part of the Purity Sue build to push Carly towards a Purity Sue because Sam (as always, YMMV ) is a Jerkass Sue and they want some balance on the page by suggesting Carly is a Purity Sue even now?

Edited by mack

A pointer, you generally need to add how someone's character has developed. You left it blank. But since I'm a nice guy I'll fill in some things for you.

Created the analysis page after a discussion on the character discussion page due to a misunderstanding.

It is not real

If it's not bigger it's at least equal.

Recycled Set. I had a look at a youtube video for That's So Raven and it's the same set as iCarly, and there are only minor differences between those two sets and the one on Saved By The Bell so I think this is spot on. The main one being that in iCarly there is a big door entrance that isn't in TSR, and there is a whole extra part to the set off to the right of this entrance that they don't use on iCarly.

I've added the trope in to the four pages.

It'd actually make a good image for the page if there were any high quality pictures of all of them.

Edited by mack

Thanks for the help with that, it shouldnt be too hard to get hold of high quality images for icarly and thats so raven, saved by the bell might be a little harder but still doable.

where would I post them if I found them?

Upload them to tinypic.com and just link here. I can do a icarly set HD picture, so I'll just match the best picture you've got. I'm decent with photoshop and have done images for here before (I added the picture for Girl Next Door with Carly and Freddie before they swapped it for no reason with Mary Jane from spiderman, and another couple I think.

Edited by mack

Out of continuity yes, out of canon? Who knows. I'd go with "It's meant to take place sometime before iOMG". There's a 3 month time skip in there as well :S

Edited by mack

• Alternate Character Interpretation belongs in the YMMV page.

Defied and Discredited came a lot later than the original Ambiguously Gay part of the trope. It's basically showing a 'progression'. Maybe keep it as an ACI.

Keep in mind that alot of the examples could have been written up to 2 years or more ago.

Edited by ading

Sam and Freddie qualify for this. As of iOMG it is canon that Sam Puckett loves Freddie Benson.

The person has the example that Carly and Freddie obviously are attracted to one another but the story has blocked them. That is not a fact. How are they obviously attracted to each other? If Sam and Freddie don't qualify. Carly and Freddie don't qualify. It's that simple.

I have just as much evidence that Sam Puckett and Freddie Benson are obviously attracted to each other but the story blocks them from happening.

I have an argument against Carly and Freddie being attracted to one another. Here. How is it obvious Carly is attracted to Freddie? Only loving him because of hero worship does not mean she finds him attractive. So while we have no evidence Freddie finds Sam attractive. Mack doesnt have any where Carly finds Freddie attractive

Edited by theschwab34

There is no canon evidence that Carly is attracted to Freddie, other than the brief period after he saved her life. It is canon that Sam is in love with Freddie.

They don't qualify.

You aren't reading the trope properly.

It doesn't matter if Sam is in love with Freddie. That's not what the UST trope is about.

Two people are obviously attracted to each other.

Freddie hasn't indicated any level of attraction towards Sam. That immediately cancels out any UST because it's not double sided.

Then you have the next part. Some element of the story is keeping them apart.

No part of the story is keeping them apart. It's been introduced only from the last episode, and since it's a Cliffhanger there's no way to know what the story will become. If Sam and Freddie hooked up in iOMG part 2, it would be They Do with an Aversion of UST because they simply happen in the double part episode with no build up.

Again, right now, there is no basis for including Sam and Freddie in the UST trope.

As for Carly and Freddie, they qualify on both counts, they hooked up in iSaved Your Life signifying their obvious attraction to each other, but broke up because of an external story element (hero worship) which they said they'd go back on some day, and since it hasn't, there isn't any Ship Sinking either. It's a mild version due to Status Quo Is God, but it's clearly UST as the trope describes.

So? Doesnt say anywhere that Carly is attracted to Freddie.

You are missing the point. Carly and Freddie spent an episode as a couple making it obvious they have an attraction for each other. They then broke up (without Ship Sinking), because the storyline blocked them staying together with of the 'hero worship' thing. Her attraction may have been as a result of the hero worship, but that doesn't matter because she was attracted to him, and have yet to resolve the reasons and if they will or will not still be attracted to each other after they resolve the issue.

They perfectly fit the trope description. If you have a problem with this, you should take it up on the trope itself, and not attempt to shoe-horn in a romantic pairing that doesn't fit and drag the page into an annoying and pointless Edit War.

I assume since you never replied to the points about Sam and Freddie, that you agree that they shouldn't be included, except to explain that why they don't count?

Edited by mack

actually, as per the definition mack keeps quoting, i would agree sam and freddie do not fit the trope. looking at it that way, it should definitely be reciprocal. we know sam loves freddie, but we don't know for sure otherwise. theirs is more of a Slap-Slap-Kiss dynamic IMO, or so it seems after iOMG (and that's just a whooooooole 'nother discussion).

that said, i would argue if sam and freddie don't fit this trope, neither do carly and freddie. yes, one could say they got together in one episode so they obviously find each other attractive on some level, and an element of the story did keep them apart (hero worship/gratitude confused for love, you name it). however, note the definition: some element of the story is keeping them apart. the element that split carly and freddie up is long gone, and now there's no longer anything keeping them apart— except the fact that they just don't get back together. they just don't have the inclination. hardly tension in that case.

it can't even be argued that they had UST in that one episode— because they were together in iSYL. that's called resolving the tension. so no UST there either.

regardless of my personal shipping preference, my vote goes to taking the trope off the page altogether.

I'd agree with all that except Carly/Freddie is still a mild case of UST because despite the hero worship being gone, the actual implications (ie, going back after the hero worship is gone) still haven't been dealt with due to Status Quo Is God, leaving it unresolved and thus trope worthy.

However, if more people suggest to removed it completely, I'm perfectly fine with that just to get this edit war over with.

"the actual implications (ie, going back after the hero worship is gone) still haven't been dealt with due to Status Quo Is God, leaving it unresolved and thus trope worthy."

i have to disagree on that one, mack. Status Quo Is God is not an "obstacle" to a relationship, which creates UST. UST is by definition (i quote again the "is keeping them" part) an overarching romantic conflict between two characters. from the trope definition, Status Quo Is God "usually happens in a series with no overarching conflict" and "any changes at all are resolved with a Snap Back or Reset Button."

in that sense, the mere fact that Status Quo Is God can apply to freddie & carly's post-iSYL relationship, but doesn't to other elements through which this show demonstrates it does have a sense of continuity (such as the whole plot of iTTK, mentions of melanie in that same episode, mentions of nora in iSAFW, etc) is enough to conclude that iSYL is not an overarching storyline, and from that, i would have to conclude it should not count as UST.

Carla, you make excellent points. What i have been getting at is if you can use Status Quo Is God to Creddie an iSYL you can legit argue to use it for OMG.

"You are missing the point. Carly and Freddie spent an episode as a couple making it obvious they have an attraction for each other."

Erm, IIRC, the entire basis for the Freddie/Carly split in iSYL was that Carly wasn't legitimately interested in him; therefore, how does this episode serve as proof that she's "obviously attracted" to him? That's some flimsy evidence.

One could just as easily argue that Freddie is "obviously attracted" to Sam since it was his idea to kiss her in iKiss. You might say, 'Oh, but it was just to get it over with, so it doesn't count' and, to that, I say, 'Oh, Carly only dated Freddie because he saved her life, so it doesn't count.' See where I'm going with this?

I don't think any two characters have more UST than Sam and Freddie but, if we're basing this on verifiable information within the show (as we should be) and not viewer interpretation, then I agree with Carla. Remove it completely. Neither pairing currently applies.

I'll agree to BST.

BST would imply UST. it's a subtrope, isn't it? i'm thinking of that "If the UST is sustained over some time..." line in particular. if you ask me, in this case it's either both, or neither.

It's neither because it's not reciprocal, at least until iOMG pt 2 airs.

184.153.102.49, You are 100% correct.

"arguably he was mad at both girls"

Agreed - when they first hire Cort, Freddie specifically tries to get Sam to see reason, and he seems equally frustrated with both girls throughout the episode.

The episode basically has Sam stand around drooling at Cort whilst Carly and Freddie have the arguments, which is why it's Carly and Freddie. The jealously thing seems clear to me, that Freddie is jealous the girls are drooling over Cort, then he gets Ashley who is 'super hot' at which point Carly gets jealous that Freddie went and hired a super-hot girl.

Maybe re-write it. Farewell My Friend: iHire An Idiot has Freddie get mad at the girls after they hire the titular idiot Cort because of his hotness. Carly and Freddie are the ones who end up fighting, he threatens to quit unless they fire Cort. Freddie hires Ashley, his own 'super-hot' intern. It's resolved when Cort is fired after doing something so stupid they have to fire him and Ashley reveals she has been Obfuscating Stupidity so she can do a sociology project.

Freddie argues with Sam too, though. As I recall, when he first comes in one Ashley she's the one to comment on it ("Who's your... lady-friend there?), and they argue quite a bit in that scene (or at least she tries to argue with him, I can't remember how much he argues back and I have no way of checking ATM). I feel like it's not necessary to include the "Carly and Freddie are the ones who end up fighting" line - the rest seems fine imo.

the jealousy angle is subjective. it's clear to you, but not to everyone. i certainly didn't see it. so i think it's best to leave it out.

i don't mind that line about freddie and carly arguing being included. i mean, they did argue about it. i would phrase it differently, though, just to make it sound neutral: just say "carly and freddie argue about it," perhaps.

I don't mean 'romantic' jealous, I just mean jealous as in "they both hired a hot guy/girl and the other was jealous of the hot guy/girl."

But if it's a problem (which it probably will knowing that this site has now been linked on the Seddie forum), it'd be better to just cut it down to:

• Farewell My Friend: Freddie in iHire An Idiot after the girls hire Cort because of his hotness.

Edited by mack

thing is, even if it was friendshippy jealousy, it would still be present from both girls, not just carly. sam was the one who directly fired ashley, after all.

LOL, i loved that Zerg Rush pothole there. xD honestly, it's not about the shipping. i've been a troper far longer than i've been an icarly fan, let alone a freddie/sam shipper. just doing this in the interest of neutrality. and to avoid edit warring, which will only get the article locked.

i think something like "freddie threatens to quit icarly in ihire an idiot after the girls hire cort as an intern solely because of his hotness" works. will make the edit, if anyone has any objections, let me know.

Edited by carla

Just zap it. It's IJBM material either way, so they can move it there.

Yeah, get rid of it.

(And for the record, I will just say that if people tell you there's a fence in your way, and you insist there's no fence and keep going and then you trip over the fence and fall flat on your face, that fence did not come out of nowhere. It just means you weren't paying attention when people told you it was there.)

Yes, that one editor just loves to use that term ass pull. I think there is a ton of Evidence in prior episodes that Sam had it bad for Freddie.

should be noted that Ass Pull is also potholed in that context in Sam and Freddie's Slap-Slap-Kiss example. if this one gets taken out, that one ought to go, as well.

(i'm not versed enough on TV Tropes etiquette to be sure, so i'll ask: so how long does this topic have to stand or how many pro-removal opinions do we have to get until we can safely make these changes?)

Edited by carla

If it doesn't fit, just take it down, using the edit reason feature to explain why you did so. If it keeps getting put back up, take it to Ask The Tropers and the mods will decide who's right.

i see that the Ass Pull entry has been removed, so i'm gonna go ahead and remove that part from the Slap-Slap-Kiss example, as well. any objections, please bring them to discussion.

Cut the entire trope, because we don't know yet for either girl.

awesome. if something along those lines happens in the future, we'll see how this goes.

This one has been around for a while. Maybe a move to YMMV under the fandom tropes would be best.

i would agree with that, so long as the "rumors" bit is removed. "some fans theorize that..." would be alright, AFAIC.

I think that would be alright.

That was updated on the trope page but not on the article itself to:

• iCarly: Sam and Freddie, especially in more recent episodes.

Maybe put in a reference to a specific season rather than 'more recent episodes'.

• iCarly: Sam and Freddie eventually qualify to a Type 2, starting from around the episode iReunite With Missy.

Edited by mack

i would leave it as "from season 2 onwards." being too specific may bring us back to edit warring again.

The only bias is people trying to shoe-horn their shipping preferences into tropes that simply don't fit the description. And to make it obvious considering what this issue is in regards to, Sam/Freddie only count as playing with the BST trope, and they simply do not qualify at all for UST:

Two people are obviously attracted to each other, but some element of the story is keeping them apart.

That's the central tenet. Not even the widest interpretation of this trope can qualify Freddie for the "obviously attracted" part therefore they don't qualify and the edits removing them from the trope is correct.

As for the other claim that I can't acknowledge anything, I've edited a lot of tropes into the article and their pages to update them based on iOMG.

Edited by mack

Obviously attracted? How is it obvious Carly is attracted to Freddie? Only loving him because of hero worship does not mean she finds him attractive.

The episode is "iGive Away a Car."

Yep. I've been thinking along those lines, which is why I did folderised all the WMG's. I shall ponder the way in which to do it.

N Hmm. &The main page:

• A new sub-page for the episode specific tropes, then split the rest in half?

YMMV

• Split off the fandom trope section (something like iCarly/Fandom). Leave the fetish fuel until we see the results of the admin decision on that namespace.

WMG and JBG:

• Split into 2 pages, one for the characters, and one for everything else.

About the only thing else I could see is split off into seasons for radar and funny. Then take the YMMV tab and split off it's fandom tropes, and

Edited by mack

Sounds pretty good.

• edit - A to D done. I generally moved examples of a 'whole plot' or sub-plot, or anything that only occurred in one-episode. Feel free to continue doing the rest.
• edit - everything to H done.
• edit - everything up to and including M done. I also moved the fandom section to a new YMMV page, along with some of the subjective tropes that I've seen listed in other YMMV pages.
• edit - Done.

Edited by mack

Agreed.

I think the main trope page is Trope Overdosed, I need we need to separate the show tropes, the fandom tropes and move all character related tropes to the Characters page.

Yeah, that might be needed. A sub-section for the fandom related stuff would probably work well, with perhaps moving to a sub-page if there's a decent amount of them.

I've now added iCarly examples to all the pages above Chekhov's Gun.

I think I might clean up the alternative character interpretation bit. That's huge.

Cleaned up ACI a little, moved some to WMG.

I've added to the trope pages the examples from everything about Door Focus.

• edit: 19th July - Everything above Executive Meddling.
• edit: 20th July - finished all the F tropes.
• edit: 23rd? July - finished all the G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, O tropes.
• edit: 24th July - Finished all the remaining tropes in the regular examples section. Fandom section done for the most part, some not due to it not really qualifying for a trope example page.
  • Now doing the Character Pages:
  • Carly: Done.
  • Sam: Done.
  • Freddie: Done.
  • Spencer: Done.
  • The rest: Done.
• All done, including adding some tropes that were on their trope example pages, but not the main page. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD IF YOU EVER READ THIS PLEASE DO BOTH THE TROPE EXAMPLE PAGE AND THE iCarly PAGE WHEN YOU ADD A NEW TROPE.

Edited by mack

Okay, I did it, but there's no way to redirect to this page. So I guess I'll just put a big link at the top.

Everyone Has An Important Job To Do

I think because both of them, especially Carly have a slightly Asian cast to their features. As far as I know neither actor is part Asian so feel free to get rid of it..

Trump delenda est

They both had a bit of an Asian look to their facial features especially in the early Season 1 eps. I still don't think it works really for that trope, I'd get rid of it.

So would that make them a Vocal Minority?

They aren't really a minority, but not so big to be a 'fan preferred couple'. I think I'd be right in saying some of the most vocal shippers are the ones who aren't going to be/don't look like becoming canon, and this is the case here.