Discussion Recap / DoctorWhoS32E13TheWeddingOfRiverSong

The first bullet point- yes, that's my understanding as well. Everything assumed the Doctor's death was a fixed point because they saw him get shot, start to regenerate, and then "die". In reality, River's shooting the Teselecta is the fixed point, and it's when she doesn't do that that time falls apart (good way of pointing out exactly why Fixed Points In Time must remain constant there, Moffat).

Slight modification — the Silence apparently created the fixed point, which was why they needed to kill him in Utah. But it backfired without them knowing, because they ended up making the Tesselecta's "death" the fixed point, utterly useless for their goals. (And I imagine making a fixed point in time, even in a "still" place like Lake Silencio, isn't easy.)

As I see it, the engineered fixed point in time was that the Silent who was watching events got to see The Doctor shot twice and people it believed had no reason to lie confirm him as dead. Of course the only person who actually confirmed him as dead was Canton 3 who ensured that there was no opportunity to perform a proper autopsy.

Given that we also know the Tesselect crew have teleportation technology, the thing which actually burned on the boat could have been anything.

Also River and Timestop!Amy convinced the Universe (all of time and space) the Doctor was dead by broadcasting that appeal for help to the universe out side the Timestop!Bubble. So the universe at large associated the Tessalecta being shot with The Doctor dying because that is what they'd been told was happening and no one managed to prevent it. That's why so many records call it the Doctor's Deathplace, and how he can even attempt to merge into the shadows of history again, because everyone he meets now will assume they are meeting a pre-Lake Silencio version of him..

My problem with time basically breaking due to a fixed point being altered is more the fact that the consequences were already established in "The Waters of Mars." The Doctor altered a fixed point in time, and time basically rewrote itself to accommodate. It didn't go batshit insane.

But one other thing that's been bugging me a bit — no one thought to recover the charred robot that was most likely decorating the bottom of Lake Silencio? You'd think the Daleks, at least, would want to go in there and confirm once and for all that the Doctor had died, and it sure didn't look like the Tesselecta replicated the innards of the person it was mimicking. Or, hell, UNIT, which would probably be the Earth organization with the greatest claim on the body.

"the charred robot most likely decorating the bottom of Lake Silencio"

No. I highly doubt that. I'm sure they would have destroyed any remains somehow. It's not even just about the Doctor; the Tessalecta people seemed quite into time preservation (only killing villains when they were meant to die), so I don't think they'd leave a robot with shrinking technology just lying around on twenty first century Earth. My guess is that they activated some sort self destruct on it once it was safely out of sight of people (and they'd all got safely out, obviously).

what charred robot? Chances are the platform filled with fuel for the pyre burned, and the robot was unharmed and teleported out as soon as it slipped below the surface totally fine (lets face it the pyre-platform would loose integrity soon enough and since the robot isn't being consumed it would fall through the bottom). As far as everyone else was concerned the lack of remains is proof of the cleansing power of fire.

"Chances are the platform filled with fuel for the pyre burned, and the robot was unharmed and teleported out as soon as it slipped below the surface totally fine (lets face it the pyre-platform would loose integrity soon enough and since the robot isn't being consumed it would fall through the bottom). As far as everyone else was concerned the lack of remains is proof of the cleansing power of fire."

Actually a pretty good explanation. Not sure if the writers actually considered it, but it's good enough for me.

I do wonder if the Tessalecta's waterproof, though...

^ It can survive travelling in time and space, why should it have problems with water?

@frequency only Adalaide's death was a fixed point in Waters of Mars, and she still died. My theory is that, since she killed herself and "fixed" the change, time could rewrite itself around the small shift. If the Doctor (or the Tesselecta) had still died around that time (give or take a few minutes) time could have rewritten itself, but since he lived time broke down. Basically, you can have a small shift in a fixed point and history can work with that, but a larger one causes time to go crazy.

No, that's about it. Remember what River said right at the start of the season "this is cold, even for you this is cold" then smacked him one.

RIVER:This is cold. Even by your standards, this is cold.

DOCTOR:Or, "Hello," as people used to say

...
...
...

RIVER slaps him.

DOCTOR:OK. I'm assuming that's for something I haven't done yet.

RIVER:Yes, it is.

DOCTOR:Good, looking forward to it.

Remember River in ep 1 is Older!River than the one in the suit, so she already knew what he was going to do (that was Younger!Doctor she slapped). So this episode rolls around and the Doctor finally gets to see what he was looking forward to, and set himself up for the slap. It's Timey-Wimey (or possibly Stable Time Loop, it's hard to be certain with Who).

Plus the Doctor has always been a bit of a dick, in every incarnation.

It just came through the Rift.

The way it's worded seems to imply they mean where it was snatched from to arrive in 21st century Wales. "The rift took it" isn't really a point of origin.

Maybe at some point the Tesselecta switched with The Doctor? Or maybe he was speaking through whatever the people inside use to speak (their microphone-thing). That would take care of the monotone, at any rate.

Indeed, in 'Let's Kill Hitler' the Tesselecta was not monotone when the voice was a living person speaking inside (e.g. the actual Amy), the monotone voice was when it was generated by another source (e.g., when it was responding with information from its database).

I take the "this is how it always was" stance, and assume the Teselecta just made a hologram of regeneration energy. The people inside seem pretty clued up about the Doctor to begin with, and he was inside to make absolutely sure it was done right.

Even if the Tesselecta crew didn't specifically know what a Time Lord's regeneration looked like- if they even knew what they were, and were capable of- The Doctor has seen it himself numerous times and could easily give them the visual details for their probable holographic projection, or whatever it was. Give them the simple details- "a glowy, fiery thing,"- practice it a few times, and they'd be set to go.

Never thought of it like that, neat interpretation!

Moffat.is.a.writing.genius. :D

Nice way to put it and goddamn I frickin' loved that episode. I need to watch it again and again. :D

And then there was a genuine asspull-tastic Deus ex Machina with the Teselecta saving his ass. Which also makes no sense if you think about it. The Teselecta are meant to kill war criminals. That's their job. It's what they're for. Given all the bad guys the Doctor's been forced to kill over the years, his involvement in ending the both War in Heaven and Last Great Time War, the way he's blown up Gallifrey on two separate occasions, and the way he has a kill count somewhere in the high trillions...

The Teselecta just helped the greatest war criminal of them all, for no reason other than an asspull. Character Derailment much?

Not really. The Tessalecta established in its first appearance that they view the Doctor as one of the greatest forces for good and justice around. Besides, ending the War in Heaven the way he did is perfectly defensible, given that Galifrey was about to end it another way with the ultimate war crime.

@themaglincy Uh, eh? Why would they have been after River for killing the Doctor if they ever thought of killing him themselves. What you've said makes no sense at all.

That's the point. From any logical viewpoint they have no reason whatsoever to stop River from killing the Doctor or to stop the Doctor himself from dying. He's killed more people than any other ten of their other war criminals put together. As for it being defensible, that's just stupid. River want to kill the Doctor is also perfectly defensible from a certain point of view, and they sure as hell didn't give a shit about that.

A genuinely good writer would have let the Doctor die, allowed his years of hypocrisy and righteous bullshit to finally catch up with him. They'd have made it so Rory and Amy saved him (or rather, arranged for him to be saved), or River, or literally anyone other than the Doctor himself. Moffat just asspulled it whilst tossing off to the Doctor's amazing brilliance some more.

It's been firmly established since Let's Kill Hitler how the Tesalecta regards the Doctor, and it sure as hell isn't a criminal, no matter what happened. Of course, it sounds kind of typical coming from the guy who wrote the top post, but I disagree. Sorry.

My point is that they have no reason to regard him like that. He is, by any rational or logical definition, a war criminal of the highest calibre. He just happens to be hypocritical enough to consider himself a good man and has writers that worship him enough to have the rest of the universe agree.

There's a massive plot aversion too really - is there even a trope for that (where the plot the audience is led to believe is happening is in fact the total opposite)? - in that all the way through we've been led to believe that this whole series has been about how the Doctor can avoid his death, when in the end this episode he had to avoid the death in order to cause the death in order to avoid the death owmyheadhurts.

@The Malignancy Er, no, he does NOT consider himself a Good Man at all. Just lsiten to half of what he says during 'A Good Man Goes to War.' The Doctor is ENTIRELY aware of how fucked up he's made peoples lives but the simple fact is compared to basically any other force in the series, he's done much, much more good than harm. Or would you prefer there was no-one out there to stop the Daleks and Cybermen, etc? The Tesselecta exists to punish people who are guilty of war crimes, i.e; Hitler, or River for KILLING THE DOCTOR. If they are a force for justice, as thye claim to be, it would make sense that they would do anything in their power to help the Doctor. Not doing so would be like asking a police officer to shoot a small child being held hostage instead of the hostage take.

No, I'd just prefer that the show was more complex than just "The Doctor is right and will win, because he's the Doctor". Just because we can see he's done some good doesn't mean everyone in-universe should be able to, and it sure as fuck doesn't make up for all the harm he's done. Stalin made the trains run on time, but it didn't make up for all the other shit. Bad example, but you get the idea. People tend not to care about a few good deeds when they can see all the things you did wrong. On the other hand I can't possibly hope to compete with your masterful capslock and am frankly quite tired, so I guess you win. Or rather, GUESS you WIN.

Besides. If he genuinely thought he wasn't a good man he'd stop referring to himself as one and stop letting everyone think of him as one. Even if he genuinely doesn't think he's good, he's still a massive hypocrite.

Yes, he's a massive hypocrite, and yes, if he didn't have a companion to hold him back, he'd probably be a villain, as the Time Lord Victorious shows. But, that doesn't change the fact that its because of him that non-Dalek, non-Cyberman life exists, because of him that the Master is always defeated, because of him that the universe exists at all and because of him that billions of people throughout space and time can sleep soundly at night. He's a horrible person to be around, and he does questionable stuff, but he's a wonderful guy to have around, because the number of lives he saves from certain death or worse far and away exceed the number of lives he takes or ruins (largely because at this point he can count every life that is was or ever shall be about three times in the "saved" column), something that cannot be said for Stalin.

Also, he DOESN'T refer to himself as a good man, and does make attempts to make such known to people; a large part of the character development of series 6 has been him realizing that he can't keep lying to Amy and himself about being a real hero.

Actually nope. The end of the Last Great time war killed about two thirds of the space time continuum, and the end of the War in Heaven was just a clusterfuck plain and simple. The point doesn't actually matter anyway, as you'd know if you'd read my last post. He's still killed a hell of a lot of people, and most of the saving he does is completely invisible and known to only four or five people. At least one of whom will be his companion. The damage he does it much more obvious. The teselecta have no reason not to want him dead.

Whichever way you slice it, this episode was fucking stupid. If you think it's not, re-watch it and look at the Gnashing Skulls of Fail. Or maybe the ending (ignoring the lack of realism and focusing simply on how much it was pulled out of Moffat's arse). Or the "Doctor who?" thing. Or anything aside from the Live Chess, which was actually pretty awesome.

On the other hand, CAPSLOCK.

Yes, killing two thirds of the space-time continuum is a horrible, horrible thing to do when your only other option is inaction, which will kill three thirds of the space time continuum minus the population of either Galifrey or Skaro, and riiight, the Daleks would be completely harmless and not killing everyone everywhere without him around constantly.

I thought the skulls were neat (how does it work? same thing that lets headless bodies operate fine, obviously), and that the Doctor Who bit was a nifty meta-joke (i.e., it must never be answered because that would ruin the mystique the show works hard to build up, and it IS the first question in the show), so apparently this is just Your Milage May Vary.

I couldn't freakin' BELIEVE that THAT...was what the whole fuss was about. I mean, what is so damn special about the Doctor's REAL name that simply having it be revealed is so disastrous to time? So much so that people would want the good doc KILLED to keep the truth from coming out?

Another thing. How can people get the meaning behind the word "Doctor" if the Doctor already chose a word that meant "someone who makes people better"? That in itself is a silly contradiction.

One more thing though...there's been plenty of times the doctor's done terrible, terrible, TERRIBLE things. Things done in the name of saving the lives of others. That's not what I take issue with...unless he's acting like a granidose ass (Insert your favorite tenth doctor moment here). Or trying to belittle someone just because he can even though he's already won (Colonel Run Away) No, no what bothers me is the fact that he's a lying, manipulative bastard even towards his own friends and doesn't tell the truth even when it'd be easier for all parties and less heartbreaking. It's not what he's done...it's how he goes about doing what he does. And frankly, I can understand why someone would consider his future so dangerous if he goes around continuing to act the way he does, being someone willing to lie and manipulate his very best friends just to reach a certain point. What kind of person IS that? Definitely not someone you should have around, regardless of the good they can do. I mean, a chainsaw can do a person a lot of good, but you wouldn't want just ANYONE to use it, and certainly not without foresight.

So Doctor...you had best start being very, very careful about what you do. DO turn away from violence. God help you if you don't...

God help all of time and space...

@Malignancy, I think you're misunderstanding what an "Arse pull" really means.

Guys, just ignore The Malignancy. He's just taking advantage of the episode's recentness to troll everyone. His big fuss over the capslock thing shows that he's not even serious about his arguments. Don't feed the troll.

@ngrey651

"Another thing. How can people get the meaning behind the word "Doctor" if the Doctor already chose a word that meant "someone who makes people better"? That in itself is a silly contradiction."

Stable Time Loop. "A" causes "B" and "B" causes "A."

The Doctor chose the name "Doctor" because it meant "wise man/healer," and people started calling wise men/healers "doctors" because that what the Doctor was/is. (yes, he's healed a few people throughout the show's history)

Not to mention the first question was the first question ever asked in the series! Stephen Moffat, you Magnificent Bastard!

"Doctor, who?" isn't the actual question. That was Dorium's question since the actual question is more like "Who is/did ###?" and Dorium wants to know who. Moffat was just being a cheeky bastard.

"I couldn't freakin' BELIEVE that THAT...was what the whole fuss was about. I mean, what is so damn special about the Doctor's REAL name that simply having it be revealed is so disastrous to time? So much so that people would want the good doc KILLED to keep the truth from coming out?"

A friend of mine stipulated that the Doctor's real name is the key to what's locking the Time War. If the Doctor speaks his name, the Time War opens and everything he trapped inside gets unleashed to wreak even more devastation on time and space. That might be enough reason to kill the only person who knows the Doctor's name—-the Doctor himself (assuming River knows his name and wouldn't be able to affect the Time War).

I'm not a troll, nor am I actually in the wrong here. Please take the time to read what my actual argument is this time. The Doctor has done more good then bad. We all know that. It's kind of obvious. That isn't my point, and if you'd bothered to properly read my posts instead of instantly dismissing me as a troll you'd know that.

My point is that the bad he's done is a lot more obvious in-universe than the good he's done. Most of his good was done without anyone knowing who he was and with maybe one person knowing how he did it. The blowing shit up he's done has usually been done with an audience of thousands to watch his wangsting before he pulls the trigger. Once the Teselecta saw his evil shizzle, they sure as hell wouldn't care about the good in comparison. Even if it outweighs it, people tend to care a lot more about all the children you killed by proxy than the people you saved. Much like they didn't care about any good River might have done. Kindly read it this time before you reply, I'm getting sick of having to make the same point over and over.

And yes, it was an asspull. It came out of nowhere with a character who had no real reason to be there and who we'd only seen once before, at the last possible minute and with zero in the way of foreshadowing. That's an asspull.

As for the Doctor's name, that might simply be a symbolism thing. He's not so much a man as he is a symbol by this point, a legend, a man who is not so much a man as a collection of stories. Once you have a real name to attach the that you destroy it. You identify him as a person, and a mere person could never live up to the legend. Similar to how it would destroy the air of mystery surrounding him from an out of universe perspective, only with more people losing their idol.

Just a little discussion in your 'Doctor war criminal?' Thing. Not trying to debunk you as a troll or something, but I just wondered something. The Tessalecta seems to me to be completely human-run. Thus, you'd have to see their actions from a human standpoint. Idk about the Heaven thing, but wouldn't it at the very least make them ignorant about the Time War? Just throwing it out there.

@Malignancy

No, you see, because they introduced the Tesselecta in a previous episode, they are Chekhov's Gunmen, not an Ass Pull. Yes, they were "only seen once before" but what's the minimum number of times a character has to be seen before they can be considered not an ass pull, anyways? It's not like they didn't take their time to introduce the Tesses or anything.

If you think that the Tesses shouldn't consider the Doctor to be a good guy, that's a different story, and I have nothing to say about that.

@Malignancy

Also they didn't bring them out at the "last possible minute". You clearly see the Doctor talking to them near the beginning of the episode. It might even count as foreshadowing.

I know you don't like Steven Moffat, but you can't just label him with negative tropes without even knowing what they mean.

If there is a complaint that the Tesselecta don't judge people correctly, consider how wrong they got River Song. They like to imagine they have an Omniscient Morality License but they aren't omniscient and for this reason they are not the champions of justice that they claim to be.

It does seem, though, that they are being more careful now, like meeting the Doctor encouraged them to change their methods.

About the Question being "Doctor who?" It suddenly occurs to me that is because the Doctor has, knowingly or not, protected his own past from tampering by hiding his true identity. Now, I'm not all that familiar with the series before Ninth, so I might be getting it all wrong, but seems to me that is someone with the adequate resources really wanted to destroy the doctor, to prevent everything he has done all this 900 -or 1100- years, from ever happening, they could simply go back withing the Doctors own timeline, and prevent him from being born, or killing him before his first regeneration, before he had became so powerful, or even just prevent him from stealing the TARDIS. But to do that, they would have to know exactly who he is, which of the many young timelords of his generation he is, and since his past is so covered in mystery, almost no one knows that. So, if the question is ever to be answered, then at least a section of his enemies will flock to a point in time when they can harm him and prevent all his future actions, but this would lead to the universe becoming completely different, or completely ceasing to exist due to some catastrophe that he avoided, so it is because of that the question must not be answered. If that was the case, then the true nature of The Silence would be much more complex, since they would not just be a religious order that seeks to destroy the doctor after a certain point in time, but also a religious order that is trying to preserve the past of the Doctor, so the universe stays in it's present shape. They could even be in a bizarre way worshipers of the Doctor, who are intent on preserving the ultimate mystery surrounding him. That, or he is actually something more than a Timelord. After all, if we are to take at face value the statement that who he is is the first question of the universe, then that means he must have had, or will have, a very important role in the beginning of the universe.

Something that came to my mind while reading the above discussion - How does the Tesselecta describe what it does, during "Let's Kill Hitler"? I'm paraphrasing a bit, but it goes something like "We pull the greatest war criminals of the universe out of their timelines near the end of their lives, and then give them hell". For the Doctor, wouldn't hell simply be his own continued existence and living with the knowledge of the millions and millions of people whose deaths he has been the cause of? Even if the crew of the Tesselecta hero-worshipped the Doctor, this would be a very convincing argument to make them sub in for the Doctor while still following the mission of punishing war criminals.

You know, as much as I can't stand the all-encompassing black hole of informed awesomeness that is River Song, and as much as it sort of annoyed me that this season ended with what basically amounted to yet another Reset Button, I liked how things wrapped up. The Silence are properly scary, being an entire race of Slender Man (Men?), and I hope they stick around. But I think the best thing about the whole episode is the fact that it gives the writers an excuse to dial the series back a bit. Next season I'm hoping we see more in the way of one- or two-episode self-contained stories, good old-fashioned corridor-crawls, smaller-scale conflicts without some sort of greater epic significance. Gives the series a chance to get back to its roots after an entire season with basically a single story arc, maybe see a few old faces since Moffat doesn't share Davies' aversion to the series being science fiction at its core — the Ice Warriors, or even a return trip to Peladon or something. At least I hope that's what they'll do. I'll be a bit sad if we don't see Amy and Rory next season, and perfectly happy if we never see River again, though I'm sure we will if Moffat has anything to say about it.

The Doctor's identity has always been a subject of debate, even when he's trying to hide himself away, but considering just how famous his very FACE is, I wonder how he can keep hidden away from the whole universe. I'll be intrigued to see what Moffat comes up with, as well as what exactly IS so special about the Doctor's apparent real name.

But I think Moffat might actually be peeking here on TV Tropes. I'd been complaining that Steve had a bit of an Anti-Religious bent that kept being shown in Doctor Who, especially with the Silence being revealed as a religious order and the "God Complex". That is...until I saw...well, The Doctor dressed like Jesus. I don't know whether to be very flattered by this throwing of a large bone, or very insulted.

For God's sake, it was just a beard. No Tinkerbell Jesus crap here at all.

Beard and robe and really long HAIR.

Also, Doctor Who has always had an anti-religious bent, and it's never been shy about it. If anything, the older episodes were more blatant about it. Not that I really mind, it's rare to see anything that isn't pro-religion anymore, but still, the newer episodes are downright subtle compared to a few lines back when Tom Baker was the Doctor.

Ghost Ram - I hadn't thought of that! I (and many others, it seems...) just heard it as "Doctor who?" as in "your title is doctor, what's the rest?" but you have a point there. There very well may have been a comma, and the Question is in the "who?" part... Hmmmm... We may see it answered after all...

@qfrequency

I've yet to see much popular culture lately that WAS pro-religion. There's been a real lurch towards Atheistic thought ever since the "Early Rapture" thing died down, The good Doctor included.

I suppose we all have a tendency to notice things more when the views expressed therein are opposite to our own. And I think it's best if I leave the discussion at that.

I think she forgot about it until after The God Complex, at which point it "happened" and the memories came rushing back. As for the marriage, she knows, given that she is aware she's The Doctor's mother-in-law.

Yeah, essentially the point when River meets Amy at the end of the episode is set in the garden of the house he dropped Amy & Rory off at at the end of God Complex. And I think it's been established that Amy & Rory are sensitive to time enough to 'remember' events that happened in alternate timelines in some way, given they both "remember" Rory being made of plastic and waiting for Amy for 2000 years.