Discussion Music / InsaneClownPosse

They also had the following exchange:

"Fog, to me, is awesome," he replies. "Do you know why? Because I look at my five-year-old son and I'm explaining to him what fog is and he thinks it's incredible."

"Ah!" I gesticulate. "If you're explaining to your five-year-old son what fog is, then why do you not want to meet scientists? Because they're just like you, explaining things to people…"

"Well," Violent J says, "science is… we don't really… that's like…" He pauses. Then he waves his hands as if to say, "OK, an analogy": "If you're trying to fuck a girl, but her mom's home, fuck her mom! You understand? You want to fuck the girl, but her mom's home? Fuck the mom. See?"

I look blankly at him. "You mean…"

"Now, you don't really feel that way," Violent J says. "You don't really hate her mom. But for this moment when you're trying to fuck this girl, fuck her! And that's what we mean when we say fuck scientists. Sometimes they kill all the cool mysteries away. When I was a kid, they couldn't tell you how pyramids were made…"

"Like Stonehenge and Easter Island," says Shaggy. "Nobody knows how that shit got there."

"But since then, scientists go, 'I've got an explanation for that.' It's like, fuck you! I like to believe it was something out of this world."

So... yeah.

What's precedent ever done for us?

How is this Book Dumb? In other interviews, they state that they know how magnets work, and there is enough indicating that they are trying to appeal to their interviewers in most of the interviews they give. There is some distinction, such as in interviews where they are defending their work, like the original Nightline interview.

Because by the account of that interview, they appear to be resentful of scientific discovery and making a purposeful drive towards ignorance? Admittedly, it might fall better under Science Is Bad.

What's precedent ever done for us?

I'm the editor that added Book Dumb and basically what laculus notes is what I took from the article, they come off as wilfully ignorant even stating things can't be explained when they have been, or in the case of the Pyramids and Stonehenge there's some reasonable theories.

Edited by AnimeOtaku

ICP sometimes say shit just to be out there. Book Dumb and Science Is Bad don't apply here.

I dunno - even if it's a fictional persona, it's still tropable. Just look at Stephen Colbert.

What's precedent ever done for us?

I'm putting this here until there is some consensus. Personally I'm going to say this is accurate (obviously since I first added it)

• Book Dumb and proud of it if a recent article in The Guardian newspaper is anything to go by.

Maybe we could comprimise and put a YMMV on weather they mean it or if it's just for show.

Edited by AnimeOtaku

There's nothing willfully ignorant about ICP's statements, for one, and for another, it's contrary to use tropes like this in relation to real people (in contrast to fictional characters), especially when the trope is disputed.

Nothing wilfully ignorant? They're opposing scientific discovery because it kills the mystery. That's pretty much the definition of wilful ignorance right there.

What's precedent ever done for us?

TBH I wouldn't be shocked if the people objecting are angry Juggalos, I think I'll give it 24 hours and then put it back in (though I may change it to Science Is Bad), provided there's no compelling arguments not to.

Edited by AnimeOtaku

No, it's not willfill ignorance. They are not opposing scientific discovery. They are criticizing disenchantment, which is definitely not the same thing.

The only article to get this right is Religion Dispatches' essay ‘Miracles’ Rejects Disenchantment, Not Science (I couldn't link to it here for some reason), which states the following:

At the heart of “Miracles” is not a fundamentalist rejection of science but a rejection of disenchantment—of a societal pressure to accept a rational-scientific worldview even when it fills our world with less meaning instead of more. It is ultimately not surprising that horrorcore shock artists, who have apparently rejected every other social value, should reject disenchantment as well. Just as the Transcendentalists made a distinction between “Understanding” and “Reason,” ICP reminds their juggalos that joy does not come from “explanation” but “appreciation.”

Edited by 128.227.13.98

Ah, my apologies. I thought you were raising a serious objection. Carry on.

What's precedent ever done for us?

There's no need to be rude in order to get across a point that you do not have.

Honestly quoting a religious publication's apologist essay isn't a convincing arguement, putting it back in under Science Is Bad

Religion Dispatches is a publication about religion, with articles written from multiple perspectives, including atheist, agnostic, Christian, Jewish, Muslim, etc.

Science Is Bad clearly doesn't apply here, as ICP say no such thing in their songs or interviews.

"But since then, scientists go, 'I've got an explanation for that.' It's like, fuck you! I like to believe it was something out of this world."

Sounds like Science Is Bad to me.

"Fucking magnets, how do they work? And I don't wanna talk to a scientist Y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed"

"This world is yours for you to explore there's nothing but miracles beyond your door The Dark Carnival is your invitation To witness that without explanation"

1. I think you're attributing a level of philosophical depth that is simply not supported by the text.

2. Even with this counterargument, the quest for 'meaning' is achieved at the cost of a lack of knowledge - ignorance. There's really no way of getting around that.

Science is a process of discovery, a way of figuring out how the world works. To reject that, to aim for acceptance rather than understanding, is, de facto, to state that Science Is Bad. I'd suggest Science Is Wrong, but they're not suggesting that scientists aren't getting things right (unless the line 'y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed' is anything to go by) so much as they are that 'getting things right' is a deleterious process in and of itself, because 'they kill all the cool mysteries away'.

Edited by Iaculus What's precedent ever done for us?

The above are not opposing or rejecting science. As stated above, the song "Miracles" is a rejection of disenchantment, not science.

ICP never said that Science Is Bad, or Science Is Wrong. The statements they've made and the lyrics of their songs are not about "acceptance rather than understanding".

They're not promoting ignorance, either.

If you've got a personal issue with reality, don't take it out on ICP for saying something that doesn't correspond with your limited worldview.

No... that's the definition of Science Is Bad. They may not have said Science Is Wrong, and I'll charitably say it's not an example of Dumb Is Good or Book Dumb, but being pissed at the idea that natural phenomena should be explained is absolutely Science Is Bad.

While we're here, "they only mention God in one song"? You mean the one song where they explain how all of their discography to that point (except the two Filler albums they released to prevent Executive Meddling getting the the way of their "message") was an allegory for God's judgment? Something they've reiterated multiple times in interviews? On the album that was followed by a concept album about Hell (granted, no direct mention of God, but really...)?

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.

The quote used to support the trope's inclusion doesn't support the trope's relation to ICP, as it doesn't say that Science Is Bad.

As far as the "witness that without explanation" line, the Dark Carnival idea is that it's purgatory, and exists within the realm of the supernatural, so obviously the supernatural angle would allow for a lot of things that cannot be explained. It's not saying that the things mentioned in the song cannot be explained, it's saying that the things one may witness in the group's fictional imagination of the afterlife cannot be explained.

"Miracles" also says to "take a look at this fine creation and enjoy it better with appreciation", which is the actual message of the song, and is what ICP intended the listeners to take away from the song, not that science is bad and scientists were liars.

Unfortunate, then, that it includes the 'y'all motherfuckers lying, and getting me pissed' line, rejecting the notion that there might be a scientific explanation for magnetism, and that the Guardian interview has them mentioning their resentment of the scientific method for demystifying the world.

What's precedent ever done for us?

In my opinion the quote does support the idea they think Science Is Bad, feel free to read the article and find a better quote if you wish. I'm beginning to wonder if I should get on the forum and ask for a moderator to swing by. (edit) I went ahead and changed it myself, I truly and honestly can't see anyone having a legit reason to remove the example now.

Edited by AnimeOtaku

It doesn't support the idea that they think that Science Is Bad, because that is not what it says.

That line does not reject scientific explanation.

The Guardian interview has statements taken out of context that were more likely made in jest presented to support a biased viewpoint by the author.

There is no legitimate reason to include this trope on this page because it never applied to any work of the group or their personal opinion. IT. DOESN'T. APPLY.

Edited by LiveAndDie4HipHop

So calling scientists liars doesn't at least hint that they think Science Is Bad? Riiiight...

And do you not realise that the quote from the article is taken directly word for word from their lyrics?

Edited by AnimeOtaku

That line is a JOKE, and it DOESN'T even hint that they think that Science Is Bad.

Science Is Bad doesn't apply here. For all of the above reasons and for that the lead in the article actually says this:

The typical theme is that some sort of advanced scientific research has Gone Horribly Wrong, creating a monster, causing an impending natural disaster and/or a massive government cover-up. The heroes typically discover the side-effects of the research and investigate, discover what's going on, and try to stop it.

You might want to read the entire lead in of the article, specifically the bit about bad scientists and Romanticism Versus Enlightenment.

Edited by AnimeOtaku

<Mod Voice> Stop sniping at each other, especially you, Live And Die. While you're at it, read the Edit War article. If a bunch of people disagree with you, consider that you might be the one who's wrong.

<Me Voice> This seems much more like a case of Science Is Wrong than Science Is Bad, to go by the articles.

"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"

Neither is said.

I'm sorry, I almost changed it but for the comment, but this definitely seems more Science Is Bad than Science Is Wrong to me. They do say "y'all motherfuckers lyin'," but the overall theme of the song and the Guardian interview seems to be not that science fails to describe the natural world, but that it robs it of mystery. I'm looking at the tropes' articles, and it looks very much to me like they're Exactly What It Says on the Tin: Science Is Bad is that the pursuit of scientific knowledge is dangerous or immoral, and Science Is Wrong is the suggestion that the scientific method often will lead (or has led) to false conclusions. I'm hearing the first one loud and clear, but not really the second.

My posts make considerably more sense read in the voice of John Ratzenberger.

THAT'S NOT WHAT THE SONG SAYS.

The song's about appreciating everything in this world, not God, religion, or science. Read what Violent J said about his own song.

Also, here's a few recent tweets from Violent J that also contradict the claim of ICP as "Christian rock" or "Christian hip hop":

http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/27571327799

http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/27571450626

http://twitter.com/bigviolentj/status/27571693759

Summary: ICP believe in God, but they're not as religious as some may claim.

Two points. It really happened. It does not exactly reflect well upon those in attendance. Is it an attack on juggalos? The wording could be better I suppose, but stating an uncomfortable fact isn't really an attack.

Don't buy anything Tila Tequila says or does.

It wouldn't hurt. Seems like a neutral statement that won't piss off either side.

I didn't realize there was a discussion and have already reverted Memetic Mutation.

This constant removal of the slightest negative thing is quite childish.

That's just how Juggalos roll. Not a fandom known for its eloquence.

Edited by MatthewTheRaven

So, it's the next day, and, fulfilling my promise, I've put this stuff back on the page - because, let's face it, they have a hatedom, and there are people who hate juggalos.

last.fm | RYM

No one's denying that people hate the band. It's just that juggalos and ICP are not well known enough to have a hatedom.

Invoking "Fan Dumb" is an outright attack.

Edited by Juggalotus

"Fuckin' Magnets" is not a meme.

To address each of your points:

I think you'll find that they are. And if you're actually a juggalo yourself, You Should Know This Already. Also, there are artists that are much less well-known than ICP that have hatedoms — Isis, for example.

Not specifically. It simply means that there are some juggalos that act in a moronic way that gives the non-stupid juggalos a bad name. Remember, Tropes Are Not Bad.

See here. If it's on Know Your Meme, and it's not deadpool, then it's objectively memetic. And what's offensive to you about "FUCKIN' MAGNETS" being a meme, anyway?

Edited by Lordnecronus last.fm | RYM