God of Life
Hello, i'm actually wondering what the Trope Namer is for Vile Villain, Saccharine Show, I am thinking that it is something to do with Disney and their movies.
Edited by XenithXenaku Complete Monster, it's how I play Wide Open Sandboxes. Hide / Show Replies
I don't think there's a trope namer. It's just Exactly What It Says on the Tin, with a side order of alliteration.
Edited by Stillalive
Half of the Western Animation section is not saccharine by any means, young target audience aside.
Hey, I want to add a Star Vs entry but my entry's a little lacking. Any help with this:
- "Star Vs.The Forces Of Evil" is a lighthearted show with puppies and rainbows but then there's Toffee, a businessman that means serious business. Made even more jarring by the split second of madness he has in the season finale when he wins."
That has a lot of red links in it that need fixing. It also does not explain how Toffee is vile.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
All right, so I raised this issue once before, but it was under an already-existing topic and so I doubt anyone saw it. I'm starting to have an issue with the My Little Pony examples. We have a lot of MLP villains here. At the time of this writing, there are a total of 13 (or 12 if you group G1 Tirek and G4 Tirek together). I'm sure that they're all incredibly vile. However, we have to ask a question here: If there are a dozen or more vile villains in a show, then how on earth is that considered to be a saccharine show? I feel as though it's not right to count MLP as that type of show.
They've had so many vile villains that it isn't even a surprise anymore when one shows up. I mean, let's be honest: Was anyone watching this week's episode honestly shocked that Starlight Glimmer is a scary threat? I sure wasn't. Heck, if she wasn't that big of a threat, it would have been a huge letdown. This trope is meant for vile villains to show up in places that they aren't expected. And I think MLP has spent enough time now away from its roots as a "little girl's show about magic ponies having tea parties" that it is now a show that I fully expect vile villains in.
However, this could just be my point of view, so I turn to all of you. Do you think that My Little Pony deserves the title of "Saccharine Show"?
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Dear god, what is with you guys? There has only been at least one vile villain per season in the Fi M and a few per the other incarnations. When those villains aren't there, the show is perfectly saccharine. Are you trying to shoehorn "OMG too spooky!" into something as harmless as MLP? It doesn't matter if you expect vile villains in it. What matters is that if the villain isn't there, then the show is very sweet. So yes, MLP is a saccharine show.
Edited by SatoshiBakura
I agree. Whether a show is saccharine or not is an aggregate function, even a few vile villains don't turn the show nasty if the rest is still saccharine.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
I don't agree with most of the examples listed for MLP:FIM. The only two villains that I can describe by any stretch of the imagination as being "vile" would be Chrysalis and Sombra, and even then, it's pushing it, due to their campyness and monster of the week nature. I mean, Luna is listed. Wtf? She was a generic doomsday villain for two episodes, before getting redeemed and turning into an ultimate good. Truly she is a complete monster! And Trixie's power trip was constantly getting played for laughs. The show seems to actually push the message that "nobody is truly evil" so all these examples really caught me by surprise.
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Except that having comedic elements hardly invalidates being a nasty villain, especially when they appear in a cutesy Slice of Life show about ponies learning life lessons. I mean, Discord is hilarious, but he's still a capricious sadist who terrorises defenseless ponies for giggles. The Windigos had no comedy, the Parasprites lost it once they started devouring the town, and for all their genericness Sombra, Chrysalis and the dragons all posed legitimate threats. I agree that Nightmare Moon shouldn't be there, as her real threat is only apparent thanks to Word of God, and Trixie might be removed as it was all the amulet's doing, but everyone else fits the trope.
Honestly, between My Little Pony G1 and My Little Pony G4, there are a total of 12 examples on this page for MLP. If a series has a dozen different Vile Villains, then can it really still be called a Saccharine Show?
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Vile Villain...
It just isn't right. Thanks alot for ruining another facet of my perception of things.
What good does it serve, other than scaring the scarring the crap out of kids? Or is that what the exaggerated version would do?
TSDR: 2vile4me?
Edited by manhandled I got my political views from reddit and that's bad
Can we change the picture back to Kirby, that series is so perfect for this trope. Plus MLP already has too many pictures.
Edited by 71.228.107.36 Hide / Show Replies
No, because neither "that series is so perfect for this trope" nor "MLP already has too many pictures." are sufficient arguments.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
And Which are the arguments in favor and that makes MLP more suitable than Kirby's picture?
The arguments in favour are that the current image illustrates the trope. Also, the old picture of Kirby was apparently a spoiler; never desirable for page images. You can see the discussion here
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Yes.
Way too many Disney examples. The whole point of the trope is that they are darker than you'd expect from the show universe, yet nearly every Disney villain is listed.
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I thought it was just the genre and rating of the show. You would expect this kind of villain from Disney, but if you didn't KNOW it was Disney, you would not expect it given its rating and target audience.
Edited by Thecommander236 Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
Nothing on the page says anything about genre or ratings. It talks only of the setting of the show, which doesn't include the ratings. A work where nearly every villain is Nightmare Fuel or a Complete Monster doesn't count.
I'm a Troper!!!
The setting. Look at Disney films, they almost always start with flowers, happiness, and fun. They are a few exceptions, though.
Don't make me destroy you. @ Castle Series
A lot of the Disney examples listed aren't "saccharine show" so much as "contains both lighthearted and dark elements." Hunchback and Mulan especially can't really be considered "saccharine" but honestly, most Disney movies aren't.
A lot of shoehorning in the animated film folder in general. The Brave Little Toaster? At most idealistic, it's a Crapsaccharine World.
I wouldn't consider The Great Mouse Detective to be saccharine either. The movie takes place completely at night. The only really well-lit places are Buckingham Palace and Ratigan's lair.
Pardon me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Adventure Time section list like every villain on the show besides Ice King? It seems like being harmless is the exception rather than the rule for that show's villains, even if the one that is harmless gets more screen time (If IK can still be considered a villain at this point).
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Except that there are lots of minor villains and antagonists that don't fit the trope, like Lemongrab, Xergiok, Donny, Little Dude, and various unnamed monsters. Furthermore there are many episodes that don't have villains, so even if every villain other than Ice King was listed, that doesn't automatically mean they don't fit the trope.
Truly, they couln't have choosen a better pic for this trope.
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Where did the pic even come from? I've played the Zero-Two bossfight in K-64, at no point in the fight is he dripping blood. The closest thing to bleeding he does is when reddish blobs appear when you shoot him, and neither their appearance nor their sound effects resemble blood (if anything they look and sound like bubbles fizzing out of a shaken soda can). The image has to be fan art, and it's very misleading as to the nature of the boss fight.
The apparent inaccuracy of the image coupled with the fact that I can't even make out what it is leads me to believe that, pending an explanation this image should be removed.
Personally, I'd prefer a better picture, if anybody has one handy.
Edited by SomeGuy See you in the discussion pages.
There's a reason why 02 is listed as High Octane Nightmare Fuel for the Kirby series, an opinion that's reiterated a number of times whenever Kirby 64 or its final boss is mentioned. It may not be on the same level as, say, Silent Hill, but still has a much darker tone than the rest of the game. The franchise as a whole is also well-known for having some disturbing final bosses in relation to the rest of the Sugar Bowl setting.
I thought I made the contrast between the overall tone of the game in relation to its Big Bad clear enough with the picture. If a better picture is found, then go ahead and replace it. But until then, I'm putting the original one back up.
Edited by SweetMadness Corgis are a Welsh bread. I'm delicious.
That is blood, the official art in the game makes it clear. Look no further than the credits after beating it.
Modified Ura-nage, Torture Rack
41314
I at one point added the following as an example:
"An episode of the normally dramatic but light Avatar The Last Airbender has Hama, an elderly woman who knows the power of blood bending, which enables her to control people's movements by pulling their blood around inside them."
beeftony deleted that, giving the following reason:
"ATLA doesn't count as saccharine. While it does make time for humor, for the most part it avoids the Animation Age Ghetto and plays its villains deadly serious. This is a show whose Big Bad intended to quell rebellion by incinerating an entire continent. And that's not even getting into his sadist of a daughter."
Is beeftony right? If so, it seems like the example of Sideshow Bob from The Simpsons shouldn't be up there either. I haven't seen much of the Simpsons, but from what I have seen, they don't look saccharine. Can any show with such adult humor be saccharine? I'm NOT posting this to complain about my example being removed or start an argument, I'm just somewhat confused and trying to understand why my example was removed for not being "saccharine" when it seems like the Simpsons aren't either. Is beeftony mistaken, or do I have the wrong impression about the Simpsons, or should the Simpsons example be removed?
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Yeah I don't think either The Simpsons or Avatar The Last Airbender count as saccharine. The S Impsons is at best a reflection of real America and at worst a Crapsack World. Avatar The Last Airbender is set in a world which is fully developed with many non-Fire Nation related problems.
The Crystal Caverns A bird's gotta sing.
But isn't saying that examples from non-saccharine stories shouldn't be here just because "saccharine" is in the trope's title rather like saying that any example from a book shouldn't be here because the word "show" is in the title? The trope description doesn't say that the story has to be saccharine, it just says it has to "normally light-hearted", and that's definitely true of Last Airbender with all the cheesy humor from Aang and Soka. Also, The Hunchback of Notre Dame and The Princess and the Frog don't really count as saccharine either, do they?
Edited by 411314 the world is so complicated
The line has to be drawn somewhere. I removed Arsenic and Old Lace for this reason; a comedy that already leans toward Gallows Humor before introducing an Ax-Crazy villain isn't really lighthearted enough for this trope.
The Simpsons may not be "saccharine", but it's generally lighthearted and comical, whereas Sideshow Bob can be genuinely disturbing. The main point is that the villain is significantly darker than any other characters.
Edited by ading I'm a Troper!!!
I want to point out that The Black Cauldron was a Disney movie. That was by far the darkest thing that has come out of their studio. Watching it still gives me the willies, let alone when I was a 1st grader.
Does a villain necessarily have to be EVILER to count as a Vile Villain in a Saccharine Show? I know that there are examples where the show isn't saccharine by any stretch of the imagination (just having a villain that's much darker than the rest of the show), but does a villain still count if they're just taken more seriously than any other villain (E.G., a Tragic Villain on a show full of humorous Card Carrying Villains)?