Captain Kirk is cited as an example here, but I'm not sure this is appropriate; I don't believe that Kirk ever struggled with a decision to disobey orders. He did it as a matter of course. Is this adequate basis to remove the example, or am I missing something?
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There have been one or two moments where he superficially struggled but long after his character was established as 'good' over 'lawful' so it seemed OOC and never lasted very long. None are the examples currently on the page. The closest he really gets is when he's promoted to admiral, but that's off-screen (an Informed Attribute), he remains 'good' on-screen and being busted back to captain for the law-breaking is viewed by everyone as a reward not punishment.
I agree he shouldn't be on the page - and definitely not under the section for breaking from lawful.
Edited by 2.101.108.211 If my post doesn't mention a giant flying sperm whale with oversized teeth and lionfish fins for flippers, it just isn't worth reading.
The Unremarkable Hulk
...Why the hell are Superman and Doctor Doom talking to each other in the picture?
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Doom's latest plan for world conquest was foiled but Superman can't (won't) touch him because he is on Latverian soil. Lawful Stupid in action!
Also kind of ironic, because in the Golden Age, Superman (and other superheroes) was often depicted battling Nazis. Nobody would have considered it a "lawful" obligation for a superhero to refrain from toppling a dictator (such as Hitler) just because said dictator was standing on their own territory. Whoever did this cartoon seems to have forgotten that bit of history.
Wizzard
- It's also worth noting that in most (as in nearly all) Alternate Universes in which Doctor Doom takes over the world has become a Utopia. And no, we don't mean a Dystopia or Crapsaccharine World—we mean an honest to God perfect society. So, it may be that Doom is totally right when he says that the world would be better off under his tyranny, which would make him one of the most unique examples of the first type of this trope.
Sure, if your idea of Utopia includes a psychic police state (Chaos Engine), a Nazi dictatorship (A-Next), or a world where free will is sapped to the extent that the population is prevented from having a sense of humour in case they laugh at Doom (Exiles).
The one reality where being ruled by Doom is an unambiguous improvement (but still nothing like a Utopia) is Marvel 2099, and that's just because it was so horrible to start with.
Edited by DaibhidC
Radical Moderate
I'm not entirely sure why the Fate/Stay Night example got cut. I take the point about Shirou's original personal principles ('I want to save everybody') becoming inadequate for the situation, but once this happened, he had to make a choice as to what to do next. As presented in the choice, his options were to either remain true to a code ('I want to persist in being a superhero') even when this would force him to follow the path of his stepfather and give up on feeling compassion, or to care for the people who were closest to him ('I want to save Sakura') even when this would be completely rejecting abstract ideals. In any case, the characters in-universe (whether Ilya in the park, or Kotomine at the church) react to this as a 'lawful-or-good' situation.
I would be happy to revise this in more detail, but I don't want to risk edit wars, so I want to clear it here first.
First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
Playing the GBA version of Final Fantasy 4. This may be a good quote for the page. EDIT: Verified by a second playthrough.
KluYa's Spirit at Mt Ordeals: Some fight for law. Some fight for justice. What will you fight for? One day, you will see.
When has Stannis from ASOFAI ever been considered good?
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I'm unfamiliar with the character. Could the original poster of the example, or someone familiar with the story, please elaborate on this?
The term "Great Man" is disturbingly interchangeable with "mass murderer" in history books.
Why isn't there a Religion folder? (Or Mythology & Religion instead of just Mythology)? I think many of Jesus' sayings could fit here (when he "taunted" Lawful Pharisees about doing the right thing, such as healing people on the Sabbath).