Discussion Main / TheArtifact

Linking to a past Trope Repair Shop thread that dealt with this page: Split, started by MegaJ on Dec 4th 2010 at 5:52:52 AM

"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman

I removed a Watchmen example related to Veidt's pet cat Bubastis, and MBR put it back. I think it should be deleted. The entry basically says: In the comic, Bubastis's purpose is to be foreshadowing that Veidt can create giant psychic squids, too, but in the movie, there's no giant psychic squid, so therefore Bubastis doesn't need to exist, but does anyway.

I think this reasoning doesn't add up on several levels. Was Bubastis really only there just for some highly distant foreshadowing? Isn't it possible that he's there as part of a general "this is the kind of guy Ozymandias is, wealthy and powerful enough to have super cats", plus a general villain-cats are part of a cool / meta villain repertoire back to James Bond? Even if we grant Bubastis's purpose includes foreshadowing the squid plot point as well, why would that necessarily be the only reason he exists? You can make a list of 10 reasons why Dr. Watson is in Holmes stories, or Chewy is in Star Wars, and they'll all be right. If in a variant story suddenly only 9 of them apply, that hardly means the Watson/Chewy/Bubastis/whatever is suddenly an artifact.

This seems more like a Headscratchers / It Just Bugs Me thing for the Watchmen movie, not this trope.

Edited by Snow_Fire Hide / Show Replies

Would the pokedex from Pokemon count as one of these, at least in the way it's organized? I'm all for an in-game log to keep track of all the creatures you encounter. But it's a little ridiculous that separate stages for each pokemon that evolves (which inspires a rant I'll save for a more relevant page) are listed in the dex as though they're separate species all together. Even more arbitrary is that each pokemon in all their stages has a number assigned to them. What even is the purpose for those numbers? Is it supposed to indicate the order in which each pokemon and their stages are discovered? If that's so, then shouldn't Arceus (with Mew likely showing up just before any non-legendaries) be at the beginning of the dex and not bulbasaur? Then there's the flavor text for certain entries that state the pokemon in question as being capable of doing things that its stats, abilities, and natural movepool would say otherwise. Like, there is no way this thing could function as a legit means for studying pokemon in a more realistic setting. In before someone calls me out on expecting anything realistic in a world full of these fantastical monsters, I'm not in the mood for cop-out answers like that.

Edited by CloverGoldngreen

• The same could be said about Ash. He's the Anime's counterpart to the first generation's player character, but even though each generation features a different protagonist (or multiple ones, as is the case in the latest generations), he was kept in the seasons that adapted later games and regions, as the producers clearly felt that replacing the main character would be too drastic a change. Because of this, he loses much of his character development at the beginning of each new series, and isn't allowed to ever win the Pokémon League tournament and complete his quest to become a Pokémon Master, causing his story to suffer from a severe case of Arc Fatigue.

Following discussion in Ask The Tropers: "Mag Bas: "Reading The Artifact, i noted the following examples:

Team Rocket have been this for just as long, as the organization they belong to have ceased to be the villains of the main games the anime is promoting after Generation II. The Best Wishes/Black and White series attempted to rectify this by giving them actual purpose in the plot and then attempting to write them out, but it didn't stick and they returned to The Artifact status in the Pokemon XY series. The same could be said about Ash. He's the Anime's counterpart to the first generation's player character, but even thought each generation features a different set of protagonists (not counting remakes), he was kept in the seasons that adapted later games and regions, clearly because the writers felt that replacing the main character would be too dramatic a change. Because of this, he's not allowed to win the Pokémon League tournament and complete his quest to become a Pokémon Master, causing his story to suffer a severe case of Arc Fatigue.

Are they correct examples?" Drac Monster: "I'm not particularly knowledgable about pokemon, but both look wrong. The anime isn't supposed to share continuity with the games, right? " Irene: "It doesn't. It's based upon the games, though. That's why each new Team makes an appearance overall. But yeah, it shouldn't be an example since it's a different interpretation of the games. " Odd1: "I'd say the Ash and Team Rocket examples could work. It seems rather accurate of an interpretation to me." Logience: "They're an Artifact. They're remnant of Gen 1, and we're in Gen 6 ATM. Only reason they haven't left is because 1: Pikachu, and 2: Grandfather Clause. " Mag Bas: "Hmmm... two tropers guess that they are correct examples and two tropers guess that they are not correct examples." Larkmarn: "Yeah, the anime is a different continuity, but it's still Merchandise-Driven (as evidenced by the fact that Ash dumps his team at the end of every region and only uses Pokemon from the current area... and Pikachu).

They just keep showing up... largely because they're expected to. They're no longer tied to the overarching plot as Team Rocket itself has nothing to do with the Anime anymore, but we still expect Jesse and James.

Ash... doesn't quite qualify. He's more Grandfather Clause than the artifact... he's not irrelevant until, well, they stop using him." Karjam P: "By the way, guys, Team Rocket appeared in Generations II, III and IV as villains (but only for the remakes, in the case of gens III and IV).

Also, Giovanni makes a guest appearance in generation V as the representative of Viridian Gym in the world tournament. (he still acts like a arrogant sociopath.)

While they're no longer as relevant, they still have a presence there, even if only in the past.

My stance in this? They both don't count as examples - the Animé has different continuity than the main games, so their plots shouldn't be compared together. It's only when Team Rocket stops being as relevant to the plot and Ash as relevant to the plot that they become The Artifacts." Mag Bas: "Hmm, 3 tropers guess that the Team Rocket qualifies and 3 guess that it not qualifies, and two tropers guess that the Ash example qualifies and four tropers guess that the Ash example not qualifies." Candi:"Move to a forum thread for continued discussion?" Mag Bas: "I am not sure if it is okay create a thread to two examples." Very Melon: "I'm going to say Ash and Team Rocket(Jesse, James, and Meowth) don't qualify for the Artifact because they both still serve a role in the Anime that they were created to serve." Mag Bas: "Well, considering the general opinions, i am moving the Ash example to the discussion page. Thanks."

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I added a Thomas The Tank Engine entry under Live Action TV. It's tough to say exactly where the series belongs, since the entry concerns The Movie and the series has been both live action models and now pure CG animation.

Fresh-eyed movie blog Hide / Show Replies

I know for sure that Earth Bound is a prime example of this trope. You have the option to know how many experience points you need to level when you call your dad. You can easily check this in your stats without the hassle that comes with interacting with an NPC. It's derived from the prequel, Mother 1, when you can't tell when you're going to level up by checking your stats.

Edited by DavidScript i Haz a Carbon Ring

I'm thinking of adding an entry for the Pentium brand name from Intel. What section would it go under?

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Under Theme Parks is this entry: "The Disney World version of Fantasmic! has an elaborate sequence based on Pocahontas, which seems rather dated, seeing as the film was not a big hit. The Disney Land version, which uses Peter Pan, has aged much better."

I happen to very much disagree. I don't think that Pocahontas is actually an artifact.

Pocahontas was a big hit: The film grossed $346,079,773 world-wide. It won two Academy Awards, one Golden Globe (and was nominated for one other), one Grammy, one Annie Award, one BMI Film Music Award, and three Individual Achievement Awards. In fact, for the I As, three different animators were nominated under Character Animation, and under Production Design both the Art Director and the Layout Supervisor were nominated (the Art Director won).

Even if Pocahontas were not popular anymore, it would still be notable to Disney, because it was popular at one time. No one knows Third Man on the Mountain any more, either, but they haven't gotten rid of the Matterhorn Bobsleds, and they won't. The reference to Pocahontas in Fanstasmic! is not useless, it serves a purpose.

Pocahontas is not just closely tied to the mythos, it is Disney mythos. It is still a Disney film. As a matter of fact, they put clips of the film in the new Disney California Adventures show World of Color, and feature the characters in It's a Small World at the newly built Disneyland Hong Kong. If the film were so unpopular, so unknown, Disney would not have put it in both the more modern, and therefore more up to date, show and attraction.

Despite these reasons, I don't know if the entry should be removed or not. Would that be rude? It is another person's opinion as to how they define the trope, and how they see the film. I just happen to disagree with their opinion because, from my stand point, none of what the entry says seems factual. Would it be correct to remove it? I'm asking because I don't want to seem rude and snobbish by deleting another person's entry.

There's another great example in the (german) space opera series Perry Rhodan, where they introduce Ernst Ellert (http://www.perrypedia.proc.org/wiki/Ernst_Ellert). He is a "Teletemporarier" which means he can effectively time travel at will. Soon afterwards the writers recognized he was way too powerful to be of any use. The struggle to ged rid of him lasted for years. Maybe someone can insert this into the Literature section who speaks better english than me.

I'd like to say Magic: The Gathering's cardback might count. They've long since changed the logo from blue to yellow, and the Deckmaster branding fell through early on as well. The only reason they've not changed it is that by the time the "It's a little dated now" thought had occurred, they already had way too many cards printed that it would be a bad move.

I'd also like to mention this article as well. It probably explains a lot of this much better than I could. http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/feature/78

Cut this from the Star Wars section.

When Alec Guinness saw the new script, he was actually rather annoyed to see his character killed off so unexpectedly. However, he had to agree, when the film was finished, that Lucas had made the right decision.

• Last part is completely untrue. Alec Guinness dispised his roll in Star Wars, and was later quoted as saying "I shrivel up every time someone mentions Star Wars to me." It was his idea to have his character killed off early.

Does someone care to elaborate on this:

• In Samurai Deeper Kyo, Yuya goes from being a competent fighter to being useless baggage.

It's far, far too late to change the name of the trope, but an artifact is really a manufactured or artificial item, produced through the artifice and skill of an artisan. Or it can also refer to any physical effect of an artificial process. Artifacts can be very ancient, and of dubious origin, worth and relevance, but they can also be brand, spanking new and up-to-the-minute. (Latin: arte + factum = art + made = made by art)

There is another, familiar word that does always refer to an item that has outlived its usefulness or relevance, or been superseded by progress, but has been kept because of its age or history, because it is held in reverence, because nobody is able or willing to remove it, or - if still in use - because it cannot easily be replaced. That word is relic. (Latin: reliquae = remains; things left behind.)

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Removed this:

• The 2004-2009 Battlestar Galactica remake had a large number of Artifacts, due to the fact that in the later seasons, the writers admitted they had no coherent plan for the overall course of the series...despite the fact that the opening credits themselves hyped ever week that there was a "Cylon Plan" to decode. The resulting Artifacts are quite numerous, but one of the most prominent would be Anastasia Dualla, the radio-operator and more-or-less their Uhura. In the pilot miniseries, they paired her off with President Roslin's assistant Billy, and the general idea is that they'd be the "lowerdecks Everyman couple" in the story. The problem was that the actor playing Billy wanted to leave the show (he was only a third-string character) to work on several pilots for other series he'd be a regular in. Thus his role was drastically reduced when season two started, and he was ultimately killed off fairly quickly in the second half of season two. Unfortunately, the writers hadn't really built up Dualla's relationships or interactions with any other characters besides Billy, and while she was "present" in episodes, she was basically just repeating dialogue from command officers into the radio to pilots, back and forth (exactly like Sigourney Weaver in Galaxy Quest). Further, Dualla/Billy was essentially usurped as the "lowerdecks, Everyman couple" by the unplanned Cally Henderson/Galen Tyrol relationship. Then to create tension, the writers paired off Dualla with the male lead, Apollo. This met with widespread criticism because they had zero chemistry, most of the setup for the relationship was cut for time (but they did it anyway), and fans and critics alike were using Apollo/Dualla as the butt end of a lot of jokes by the end of the second season. Rather than ending it, however, the writers let the relationship drag out for another 20 episodes across the entire third season, possibly to do with that season 3 is when the writers admitted they had only planned out about the first third-to-half of the series. By the end of season three, the relationship was finally ended unceremoniously. However, Dualla's true "The Artifact" moment was in the first half of season 4: the network divided the final season into two halves of 10 episodes each then aired them almost a full year apart, to essentially get two micro-seasons for the price of one. So in the first half, "Season 4.0", Dualla simply didn't....* do* anything. She'd hang around in the background or repeat radio dialogue other characters said, but there was this pervasive unspoken feeling of "why is she still even here?". This is of course, exacerbated by the events of season 3: when the Pegasus was evacuated and sent on a suicide run at the start of season 3, her surviving command staff was integrated into Galactia's: this meant that the Pegasus radio guy, Lt. Hoshi, was now working in Galactica's control room, both of them doing exactly the same job, rendering Dualla even more redundant. In the first episode of "Season 4.5" (which aired after almost a year of just Dualla drifting around in the background), the writers unceremoniously had Dualla randomly commit suicide by putting a pistol to her temple and blowing her brains out (well, everyone was really depressed to find that "Earth" was a nuclear wasteland, but there was no more reason for Dualla to kill herself than any other character). Fans cheered to have her finally removed and that the writers were "cleaning house". Even after the series ended, the head writer has stated that the entire "Apollo/Dualla relationship" is one of the three things he'd take back and never do on the series if he could do it again. What really makes Dualla "The Artifact" is that there's running speculation that she was kept around, simply because the writers had originally intended for her to be a "beloved audience favorite" only to shockingly reveal later on that she was a Cylon sleeper agent. Comments by the writers in the podcasts for later episodes actually loosely confirmed this: there was actually never one person planned to be "the Final Cylon" the whole time, but Dualla was on the short list of potential candidates. Even the head writers * wife* , co-hosting the podcast, said she thought it was Dualla. But as he explained, it came down to a choice between Dualla and Ellen Tigh, and they chose Ellen...simply because they realized that the character of Dualla had deviated so far from her original role, had become so * marginalized* , that it would actually have no dramatic impact to reveal she was a spy the entire time. No one cared.
  • Good riddance ''Beloved audience favorite'' my ass.

Any BSG fans want to try and integrate that back into the page?

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Changed this:

• Superman also had lots of artifacts like Krypto the Superdog, and odd powers like Superknitting, that disappeared with the reboot of the character in the 1980s. (Superdog's back now, though not used as a part of Supes' evil-fighting. He certainly fit this trope for a while because he didn't exactly fit the mood of Iron Age comics. Nowadays he fits better, what with Kandor coming back and its citizens coming to our world and all.)

To change "Superknitting" to "Super-ventriloquism." Superman never actually had a superknitting power (it's been gone over at length on other pages, but "superknitting" just meant "using superspeed to knit quickly"; in the Golden Age whenever Superman used his regular powers to perform a mundane task better than a normal human could, he'd refer to it as "Super-(task name here)," but it was never meant to imply he actually had a specific knitting power. Super-Ventriloquism, however, WAS an actual power Superman had, which, I think, fits the same criteria the original writer was going for (goofy, random, obscure, and rarely-if-ever mentioned anymore) so I swapped it in. If anyone thinks that's not cool, feel free to change it back.

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