Discussion Main / SatanicArchetype

The previous discussion proposed waiting until the end of Volume 8.

Since Volume 8 has ended, new discussion begun here.

Actually, yeah; since I was the one that initially made the entry for Salem, I couldn't really understand why she was removed since she fit most of the criteria for it. But not a big RWBY fan, so wouldn't really lose any sleep if she is not reinstated.

1. While other villains and the other villains in Bleach do enter into bargains with people and screw then over they have at least someone that they give full disclosure. Ginjo certainly betrayed Ichigo's trust, but the entire Xcution organization and Tsukishima were in on it. There was a mutual trust among them and they shared each other's powers. All of the Quincies in the Wandenreich except Uryu know exactly what it means to fight for and serve Yhwach. Aizen on the other hand doesn't let anybody know what is going on and the one time he does it's meant as a test to see if that person can kill him. He doesn't tell the Arrancars that they're dirt to him and he doesn't tell Tousen that unmitigated hollowfication will cause soul suicide. Aizen betrays everyone who is allied to him in some way or another.

2. On the trope page it says that if there aren't any angels present in the story (the Quincies may have the motifs but they aren't any more angels than the Shinigami) then the character just has to be a part of a group of people with abilities others don't. This fits both Aizen and Yhwach, but Yhwach doesn't openly betray the Quincies (he absorbs the powers of impure Quinces, but that's more Fantastic Rascism than anything else). You are right the Spirit King isn't God, but Aizen's motives have been revealed to an extent. He rages against the Spirit King because he can't except a world ruled by "it" and he also desires a world of his own design (he says as much during his Villainous Breakdown and it is confirmed in the data books authored by Kubo) this is similar to how Lucifier couldn't except a world ruled by God and tried to over throw him (I may have the wrong interpretation of the Bible here, if such a thing exists, I'm not very religious so if you are and I'm just plain wrong here I concede).

3. I concede this point after reading those tropes Aizen doesn't fit them at all. I'm about to be a natter-fly here for a little bit so feel free to ignore; Satan doesn't believe himself evil either, the Royal Guard think Yhwach is the greater evil because he will bring about the end of the world and not just a new world order like Aizen, and Yhwach isn't opposing the Spirit King he is waging a war on the shinigami in order to keep himself from reverting into a state of deaf, blind, and immobile.

4. This one isn't even arguable Hollows just aren't Christian demons. In Christian demonology demons are defined as fallen angels and the offspring of angel/human relationships. Nothing in Bleach nor in most works falls under these categories even in works that explicitly use the term demon. I prefer the way it is stated in the page that directly talks about Satan that the character can be the ruler of demons or evil creatures. I think one of the pages should be changed to fit together better either add to this trope saying that general evil creatures can qualify like Hollows or only the Christian definition of a demon should be used.

5. So this one only counts if it works for the majority of his appearances right. Well Satan is described as being able to take on many forms including a handsome man like how Aizen appears, but that's not enough. Aizen goes through several transformations ranging from the featureless to the bizarre and his shikai ability allows him to take on any form he wishes through its perfect hypnosis.

So he does fit a few more than peripherally and he only needs a combination to fit the trope, but I would suggest changing the part regarding the Spirit King to focus more on his motives rather than the Spirit King being like God. I think being overly literal with these tropes takes some of the fun out of this site, but hey since we're on the topic of examples that don't fit how about this one.

The Godhand from Berserk. Maybe you don't read it or you're behind on some stuff if you are you can ignore because of spoilers.

Entering bargains that help people in the short-term but screw them over long-term: The Godhand do enter into deals with people, but it's all for the Idea of Evil. The Idea of Evil is the one responsible for creating the Godhand and the behelits they use to turn people into Apostles. Also the deals benefit the all parties involved and there are no tricks. They ask you to sacrifice your friends they don't lie about it and when it's all done you get all the perks of being an Apostle and the Godhand get another soldier.

A fallen angel rebelling against the creator's will: Not only are they not fallen angels they were also normal people before becoming members of the Godhand and they aren't rebelling against their creator's will they are their creator's will. The Idea of Evil is God, in Berserk God is the manifestation of humanities desire for a being that controls everything bad that happens and the Godhand are its angels.

An Ultimate Evil or Godof Evil / A ruler of demons: Obviously the Idea of Evil super cedes them in these categories.

Something that looks the part: Obviously they look demonic, but if every character that looked demonic was put on this page it would be an abused trope right?

So I see no reason not to replace the entry on the Godhand with an entry on the Idea of Evil.

Now that I think about it the shape shifting thing is a power any villain can have so never mind, but if you have your heart set on keeping Aizen of this page I would suggest editing the page to include that Christian themes such as angels and demons need to be solidly invoked in order count as this trope.

One more thing. Since you care so much about symbolism and motifs I feel I should point out that Lucifier's name means "Bringer of Light" and Kubo's character quote about Aizen is "The gaze into the Sun" this brings up obvious light motifs which do relate to Satan and is further illustrated by Kubo's chosen theme for Aizen "Stand Ablaze" by In Flames which is a song that has themes revolving around loneliness and flames another connection to Satan. Aizen is a figure clad in white and during his first transformation is bathed in white light. There's also the symbolism of Aizen being sealed with in a triple cross by Urahara. So there are connections between Aizen and Satan that were intentional on the Author's part and the series relies heavily on white equals death and Aizen has the most light and white motifs of any character in Bleach. Just because traditional Christian motifs and symbols aren't at play doesn't make him not this trope.

1. Full disclosure isn't part of the trope description. Besides, it was Chad and Ichigo who were being screwed over, exactly as the trope says - short term benefit to be screwed over in the long term. Also, Aizen did tell the Espada quite openly that they should never trust him, and Gin and Tousen were a part of his collaboration. With Quincies, you're guessing about something we haven't been told since we only have Haschwalth's knowledge, no-one else's. We do know Uryu's been benefitted in the short-term for a long-term detriment. In terms of disclosure, the three villains aren't much different.

2. Yhwach's been openly traitorous to the quincies. Aizen can't accept a world ruled by the Spirit King, but the Spirit King doesn't rule anything. The story said he's a figurehead, isolated from the world. We also know he's isolated even from the Royal Realm. Urahara called him a lynchpin, but Kubo hasn't explained what that means. Aizen's words are odd, his motives unexplained. Comparing Aizen's motives with Lucifer's requires guesswork.

3. Satan isn't an example of God of Evil either - he is in Dante's work, but not in Christianity (see trope page). The trope is about Gods of evil, not Gods who happen to be evil. We don't know what Yhwach wants, we have to guess, but he did say he wants the Royal Guard to come out which is in line with Aizen.

4. Christian demonology is more than fallen angels and nephilim. I also don't compare hollows to Christian demons. I was collecting all the arguments I've seen about applying Aizen to this trope. This point is arguable for people.

5. The trope seems to focus on Big Red Devil, even the trope image is one. The only time Aizen had a demonstrably demonic form was during his transformations, and it was brief.

To make the whole of Aizen fit this trope, second-guessing the author and plot is needed. The story has hyped Yhwach to be worse than Aizen, and he's got more in common with this trope than Aizen does, but I don't think Yhwach should be on this page either.

1 Alright I guess what I'm trying to say here is that Aizen doesn't trust anyone and no-one should trust him. He monologues about how trust is for the weak and he screws over Gin and Tousen as much as anybody else in the series. At least Ginjo and Tsukishima trusted each other and obviously Yhwach trusts Haschwalth if he's willing to tell him about the letter system. I would like to point out Quilge Opie saying that Yhwach gave him the letter "J" so that shows at least some knowledge on their part as to what is going on and to be fair Uryu joined Yhwach for revenge, Yhwach never offered him anything that we know of.

2. Ok you lost me here. How was Yhwach openly traitorous to the quincies. He steals the powers of the quincies he feels are unworthy of it and for quincies that survived like As Nodt he gave them greater power and those who follow him are completely loyal and even willing to die by his hand, some would even prefer it.

3. We do know what Yhwach wants or why he is waging his war. He needs war in order to continually revitalize himself. The only time he mentions the Royal Guard his words are along the lines of "Oh they'll probably show up, let's retreat and get ready for them" I don't know how you can misconstrue that as him wanting them to show up or he even wants anything to do with them.

4. Christian demonology is very clear that demons are evil or fallen angels as well as the disembodied spirits of Nephilim. Also any Pagan Gods are considered demons as well but that can't be applied to too many things either.

5. Fair enough.

Ok I see your points and I'm willing to keep the Aizen entry of this page until more is revealed about the Spirit King and his motives, but I don't think Yhwach fits the trope better because to the quincies he is the messiah and there really aren't any parallels between him and Satan they may slightly share some motifs, but that isn't this trope either. Also you still didn't mention anything on my points about he main Satan page and this page being disjointed, which is a problem because one leads to the other.

I agree with not adding Aizen here.

Satanic entities in fantasy settings are usually under this trope, not Satan. Morgoth for instance was intended by Tolkien to be his version of Satan. That doesn't literally make him Satan, unless the Devil was transplanted to Eä and started calling himself Melkor.